00:02So the Palm Scheme is an incredibly important program in terms of the labour-high mix we
00:07have in Australia to support growers harvesting their fruits, vegetables and nuts. This is
00:12an incredibly important scheme now in terms of our national food security. And it works
00:16incredibly well. It is tightly regulated. It is among the most tightly regulated migration
00:21programs anywhere in the world of its kind. And there's enormous benefit back to the Pacific
00:27as a result. It works for Australian employers but also Pacific nations rely on remittances
00:33as a really important source of income. It works well. There are some instances of worker
00:40exploitation and poor outcomes for workers while in Australia. We need to focus in on
00:45those and do better. Yeah, when you say there are some instances,
00:51how widespread do you believe those instances are? So we're talking, Joe, here about particularly
00:57disengagement where, and that's a word for where, a worker arrives from the Pacific into
01:02Australia and for whatever reason leaves the employment of the business that sponsored them
01:07to come to Australia in the first place. This cohort is vulnerable because they've left the
01:13scheme. The scheme provides a number of safeguards and checks and balances for their personal well-being
01:19and the money that they can earn. Once outside the scheme, those protections no longer exist and
01:24this is where there are reports of exploitation. But the program last night also interviewed some
01:31people who were part of the scheme and they'd left employers after disputes over pay, working conditions
01:38or alleged mistreatments. And so there are allegations, like while there are obviously
01:43issues outside the scheme, the program last night also pointed to problems even when people are
01:50working within the rules of the scheme. How widespread do you believe those issues are?
01:56I think there are incredibly small cases of where there is genuine mistreatment and exploitation within
02:03the scheme. I think it's vanishingly small. I think we know from the numbers that disengagement from
02:09the scheme was peaking at a time during COVID when there was a general shortage of work. And I think
02:14it's
02:15a little bit too simplistic to say that all of those people disengaging at the time, it was up to
02:19about 10%,
02:20were doing so because of exploitation. There was a shortage of labor in the country and they were getting
02:26induced to leave for cash jobs and improved benefits. Since that time, disengagement has
02:33come down to about 3% or 4%. And this is close to what you can expect for a migration
02:40program of its
02:41type around the world. What about the fact mentioned in the story, the four corner story last
02:47night, that Fair Work investigations have found 61% of growers and labor hire companies inspected in
02:53the Coffs Harbour area were found to be breaching workplace laws, including underpaying workers. And
02:57that figure was 72% in the Riverina or 83% on Victoria's Mornington Peninsula.
03:02So really important to distinguish between these numbers and the palm program. What we're talking
03:07about here are labor hire providers who are working outside of the palm scheme. So that's the first
03:12important distinction. Those numbers are really troubling and obviously more work needs to be done,
03:18particularly on the enforcement side. Important to note though, those numbers, as the Fair Work
03:22Ombudsman will clearly state, are a product of a targeted investigation. They are targeting what
03:28they call hotspots, regions where there is known poor compliance with workplace law and targeting
03:33operators that are known to be rogue. And so we can't be making claims about the entire horticulture industry
03:39as a result of the Ombudsman's work. That said, there's room for improvement. And one obvious
03:46area is the creation of labor hire licensing. It doesn't exist in New South Wales. It does in
03:54Queensland and Victoria and a couple of other states. The Ombudsman's work shows that those
04:00jurisdictions, and particularly Queensland, have seen dramatic improvements in compliance where there is
04:04an effective, well-regulated and well-resourced labor hire licensing scheme in place.
04:08And how do you feel generally about labor hire companies, the middleman between farmers and
04:13workers? Four Corners tried to track down the people responsible for one labor hire company
04:17accused of poor treatment and couldn't track down anyone, and neither could the Fair Work
04:22Ombudsman? Yeah, so the licensing schemes set up, and particularly the Queensland one, are
04:28targeted and addressing this particular issue around phoenixing. A company has been created
04:33out of thin air. The licensing schemes validate that there is an actual person who is fit and
04:39proper to undertake and conduct one of these businesses, and they've got financials to prove
04:43that they are viable. So that is a simple way of addressing this issue. You know, it needs
04:49to be said that not all labor hire operators are dodgy. The vast majority are good operators, and
04:55they are essential to our food security. There are many growers around the country who will
04:59go from a two-person operation most of the year to needing 200 people during a time of
05:05harvest. There's no way we could do the work we need, the harvest, around the country without
05:10the labor hire part of our industry. It's not going anywhere. We just need to regulate it.
05:15Yeah, and so should New South Wales introduce some sort of licensing scheme, and how quickly?
05:20Yeah, look, the NFF Horticulture Council has got a position that ideally we want a national
05:25scheme. So all states and territories applying the same licensing arrangements for labor hire
05:30providers. Unfortunately, we haven't got agreement across the country, and so now we're looking
05:35to step-by-step address that patchwork of licenses. We'd love to see New South Wales put one in place,
05:43but also those other jurisdictions that also don't have licensing in place.
05:47be a big
05:47countries
05:48, a lot of kingdom
05:48, one of, there areans.
05:49So now we're looking for you to look for every Housing
05:49president of America
05:49...
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