- 16 hours ago
In this episode of Political Stock Exchange, we examine the controversy surrounding the government's push for ethanol-blended petrol policy and the CVoter survey's responses to what common man of the country thinks about the move.
Category
🗞
NewsTranscript
00:00Hello and welcome to the Political Stock Exchange Cutting Edge Data Analytics and this time around, well, we're going to
00:10give you the data on the seawater snap poll where it comes down to how people are reacting to the
00:17entire ethanol controversy.
00:19Is it really a manufactured controversy, political fair mongering as being framed and positioned by the government or is there
00:28real concerns about efficiency and especially how are people actually looking at this entire controversy?
00:38Was it rolled out, B20 in a hurry? All of that, breaking it down in terms of numbers where our
00:45snap poll, seawater snap poll has gone, spoken to the people and we're going to give you the data right
00:51here.
00:52But first up, allow me to take you through the headlines.
00:58Supreme Court seeks status report from the SIT probing embezzlement of donations at the Ram Temple in Ayodhya, says it
01:06will hear next week a batch of petitions seeking a court monitored CBI investigation.
01:16Probe launched into Vietnam boat tragedy that claimed lives of 15 Indian tourists of Vietnam's southern island of Phu Quoc,
01:24captain of the boat detained, bodies of 15 victims repatriated to India.
01:34Huge fire engulfs a pub in Bangkok, killing at least 27 people and injuring at least 63. Firefighters bring the
01:41blaze under control.
01:47Fragile U.S. Iran cease fire continues to unravel. U.S. insists Hormuz remains open to all commercial vessels.
01:54The Iran wants, Washington says, won't allow U.S. to intervene in management of Hormuz.
02:04And say hello to the Queens of Lords.
02:07Indian women's cricket team scripts history by thrashing England by 270 runs, bags their maiden win at the Mecca of
02:14Cricket.
02:15I mentioned about the legends of the game in the Indian side, but also the England, it's a...
02:27All right, viewers, off late. I'm sure you've been part of multiple drawing room conversations where you've discussed the use
02:34of ethanol blended petrol in India.
02:37Is it harming your car? How much is it harming your car? Is it limited to just mileage?
02:41All of that decoded right here on India.
02:46Today we're going to get you the numbers of seawater snap poll on ethanol in terms of is it a
02:51manufactured controversy?
02:52That's what the government frames it as, political fear-mongering.
02:56But on the other hand, is there a real issue?
02:59Has it been the entire ethanol policy rolled out in a haphazard, hurried manner?
03:05And should we have waited, eased it in?
03:08Well, as the centre expands beyond E20 or hopes to expand beyond E20 petrol by notifying standards for E22, E25,
03:18E27 and E30
03:20and gives legal recognition to E100 fuels, critics have raised concerns over engine compatibility, fuel efficiency, consumer preparedness.
03:29Mind you, till now, we are only using the E20 blend.
03:35The centre has also now reacted sharply on all the politics that encircles the current controversy.
03:44Union Minister Nitin Gadgari, in an exclusive interview with India Today, dismissed allegations that ethanol damages vehicle engines.
03:52He's not the petroleum minister by any standards, but he's been one of the biggest proponents of ethanol.
03:57However, you do have the opposition that is hitting out and seeming to suggest that possibly Mr Gadgari's family might
04:07be profiting from it all.
04:10But there is no basis, no facts to that, at least in the public domain.
04:15Here's more.
04:20India's biggest fuel transition is now underway.
04:23After rolling out E20 fuel, the centre has notified standards for E22, E25, E27 and E30 fuels,
04:32while also giving legal recognition to E100, the high ethanol fuel blend that contains nearly pure ethanol,
04:39typically ranging from 95 to 100% ethanol by volume.
04:42The move signals the government's most ambitious push yet to cut crude oil imports and reshape India's energy future.
04:51India's ethanol story began with a pilot project in 2001.
04:55A nationwide 5% blending programme followed in 2003.
04:58The national biofuels policy was overhauled in 2018, accelerating the country's ethanol ambitions.
05:04By 2025, India had achieved its E20 target five years ahead of schedule.
05:10Now the next target is E27 blending by 2030.
05:14India's ethanol push mirrors a global trend.
05:18The United States uses E10 as its standard fuel, alongside E15 and E85.
05:23Brazil has made E27 the norm, while flex-fuel vehicles there can run even on E100.
05:29China uses ethanol-blended fuel across several provinces.
05:33Canada has widely adopted E10.
05:35Germany too has transitioned to E10 as its mainstream fuel.
05:39But as India prepares for the next phase of ethanol blending, the policy has ignited a political and a public
05:44debate.
05:46Critics claim E20 reduces fuel efficiency, could damage engines, especially in older vehicles.
05:51They argue that many vehicles built before March 2023 are not fully compatible, warning of higher maintenance costs,
05:59and questioning whether water for food crops are being diverted for fuel,
06:03alleging that consumers were neither adequately prepared nor given a real choice.
06:32The center, however, has hit back strongly.
06:34Union Minister Nitin Gadkari has categorically rejected allegations that ethanol harms vehicle engines,
06:40insisting that there is no scientific evidence to support such claims.
07:15The government has found support from the automobile industry as well.
07:42As India races towards E13, eventually a 100% ethanol fuel,
07:46the debate has moved beyond what goes into the fuel tank.
07:48It has become a larger question of whether the country can balance energy security,
07:53environmental goals and farmer welfare,
07:55while carrying consumers along in one of the biggest fuel transitions in its history.
08:00Bureau Report, India Today.
08:07All right, guys, before we dive into the debate and numbers, I just want to put it out there.
08:11Right now, the government is only looking at E20, which is what we are using,
08:16and not looking at E25, E27.
08:19Yes, it's up on the annual, but there's going to be a smooth transition to get there.
08:23And also, there are lots of plus points as well,
08:26if we actually do introduce ethanol blended fuel,
08:29because number one, it will dramatically reduce and already has reduced our dependence on crude oil.
08:36And that, in effect, is huge, because then we end up saving a lot of foreign exchange.
08:41Number three, already the windfall of it has been experienced by many sugarcane farmers
08:47across the country and sugarcane mills, which help produce ethanol.
08:51So there is a lot of good in it as well.
08:54But has it happened in a haphazard manner?
08:57Have we rushed into it?
08:58Because in India, a lot of vehicles are only still old vehicles that are E10 compliant.
09:05And are we pushing them to use E20 without giving them enough options?
09:09Because ethanol is a solvent at multiple levels, can impact engines.
09:15There is no bona fide evidence to suggest that it actually impacts engines,
09:20but it is very difficult to prove.
09:21You can ask any car expert, because if there is a malfunction in the engine,
09:26it is very difficult to prove how it's happened.
09:29So therefore, there is no corroborative data to suggest that it harms engines.
09:35But number two, the government in itself has admitted that there is a reduced mileage efficiency.
09:41So yes, by using ethanol blended petrol, we are experiencing less mileage.
09:47And this is a fact that the government has also accepted.
09:50But there is a third clause to it all.
09:53ARAI was to put out a report on the usage of E20 and does it really harm vehicles.
09:59Well, that report hasn't been made public.
10:01And there is a push for transparency on that report,
10:04because parts of it has been released by the government,
10:06which seems to suggest that E20 has no impact on fuel, on cars.
10:13But there have been reports that suggest that a part of that report is
10:18that if you don't have an E20-compliant car and an old car,
10:23then you could face issues, especially where particles which are made of rubber are concerned.
10:28So let's take this debate, let's throw this debate open.
10:32I have with me first my colleague Siddharth Zarabi,
10:35our group editor of Business Today, India Today group.
10:38He's joining me in the studio, Siddharth.
10:40You know, this is a highly sensitive issue and needs to be explained
10:44with great amounts of detail and tact,
10:47because at one end, you know, there are,
10:50we usually talk about the foreign hand of foreign interests in a political manner.
10:54But there is clear indication that if we become slightly self-reliant,
11:00we reduce our crude oil consumption, we save our foreign exchange,
11:04this will impact certain countries that we've been buying fuel from.
11:09And we also then strengthen the hands of our farmers, especially the sugarcane farmers.
11:13But there is a flip side.
11:14Did we hurry into it?
11:15Because if you look at the 2021 ethanol policy, the rollout policy,
11:20there are multiple parameters that the government didn't quite confirm to and follow.
11:25Well, you know, this is certainly not a hurried policy decision,
11:29because the first pilot program started way back in 2001, 25 years ago.
11:36India's dependence on imported crude oil is a feature that we have known for decades.
11:43Nothing new about it.
11:45And we all know in the most recent episode of the West Asia crisis,
11:49how badly exposed we got because of that import dependence.
11:53So anything that is done to reduce and curtail that extreme burden, I think, would be supported.
12:00The second point, what has been the pathway to E20, which is currently available?
12:07In FY21, we were at just above 8%.
12:12We are now at 20%.
12:14So it's been a graded rollout.
12:17It has not been a sudden move.
12:20And most important point, Preeti, as I handed back to you on this point,
12:25is that the auto industry, the vehicles which are at the crux and core of the debate,
12:31have also therefore had that much time to adapt.
12:35It can be argued that the consumer who goes to the pump just sees one pump, one nozzle and pays.
12:42But if the automakers who have perhaps been more in step with this fuel policy change,
12:50and therefore, they are the ones who have been selling cars
12:55and making promises with regard to compliance and effectiveness.
12:59You know, but if you look at it, Siddharth, you know, I just want to play the devil's advocate here
13:02because there are a lot of people who are, you know, who are suspecting that, you know,
13:07maybe it's been rolled out in a hurry.
13:08And I'll just go back to the 2021 ethanol roadmap.
13:11And this is what we've been following.
13:13Now, the 2021 ethanol blended fuel roadmap seem to suggest that ethanol blended fuel,
13:20especially E20, is going to be priced lesser than regular petrol.
13:24And, you know, the offer and will offer tax release to make up for the mileage shortfall
13:30because there is a mileage shortfall, something which the government has accepted.
13:34So neither has that fuel been made cheaper than regular fuel.
13:37The other part of, you know, the roadmap of 2021 that the government had accepted
13:42was that E10 fuel will continue to be made available alongside with E20,
13:47that the consumers will get an option, that if their car is not compliant with E20,
13:52they have an option of E10.
13:53And neither is the fuel made cheaper comparatively to petrol.
13:57Neither is E20 made available alongside E10
14:02because most petrol pumps that we actually go to don't have E10 anymore.
14:06And lastly, every time an example is being thrown up in the form of the country Brazil,
14:11that Brazil is now compatible with E27.
14:15But Brazil, if you take as example, Siddharth,
14:17the rollout has happened over a span of three decades.
14:20It started 30 years ago where slowly, little by little,
14:23we moved, the country moved to E27.
14:26And in the last three or four years where we've introduced,
14:29slowly come down to E20,
14:31we've done it in a matter of less than five years.
14:34Well, you know, there are several questions in that.
14:37And let me try and answer this point from the perspective of consumer choice,
14:43because there are consumers who are saying,
14:45you have to give me choice.
14:46If you are selling premium petrol at the same retail outlet alongside normal petrol,
14:55then why aren't you providing me one more or two more options?
14:58So that's a fair ask.
14:59What did the government, and this is a PIB statement that was issued last week,
15:05say about this,
15:06in specific terms when this question, and they themselves answer it,
15:11they basically say that there are 1,100,000 retail outlets all over the country.
15:16And, you know, public sector banks have provided financing of almost 1 lakh crore for ethanol plants,
15:26the storage and the logistics.
15:28And reverting to it and now would strand this investment
15:32and hurt farmers and entrepreneurs who built it in good faith.
15:38And they say that multiple choice would complicate quality control at every single outlet.
15:47In very simple terms, as per this latest statement,
15:50it seems to suggest that the government says E20 is the choice that you have.
15:56We cannot go back to E10.
15:58And therefore, this is a question that perhaps both the auto companies
16:02who built up this infrastructure over the years need to answer,
16:07because if they had a graded plan,
16:10perhaps graded options in terms of the fuel offering could also be on the anvil.
16:15One more point that you asked me with regard to pricing.
16:21Look at it from this point of view.
16:23According to the government itself,
16:25if at $70 per barrel of crude oil price,
16:31which is what we recently saw crude oil pricing trending towards,
16:37then ethanol is costlier to produce than pure petrol.
16:44It's only when crude oil prices are in the range of perhaps 120 to 130
16:49that the cost economics work out.
16:52So effectively, Preeti, we are discussing alcohol,
16:58which is what ethanol is,
17:00with a hydrocarbon, which is what gasoline is.
17:03Fair point.
17:03And you know, that's the reason,
17:04because many of us who saw images coming in from Mumbai,
17:08where people standing with bottles of ethanol blended petrol,
17:12and you could see that the ethanol had separated from the petrol,
17:15because ethanol is alcohol.
17:17It also absorbs a lot more moisture than regular petrol.
17:21And therefore, there will be storage issues.
17:24And, you know, and that opens up a debate all on its own,
17:28whether we have done it in a hurry,
17:30should have maybe spanned it out a little,
17:32got that kind of infrastructure to absorb all the hiccups.
17:34But there are a lot of pluses as well.
17:36I thank Siddharth Zarabi for joining us in the studio.
17:39And let's now cut across to our political panelists,
17:42and we start rolling out the numbers there.
17:44Joining me this evening is Rajat Sethi, political analyst,
17:47Tahseen Poonawala, political analyst,
17:50but who also joins us in the capacity of someone who's taken up the crusade
17:55against ethanol blended petrol in the country.
17:58I have Rajesh Kalappa, national spokesperson, Congress.
18:01The Congress and other opposition parties have jumped on it.
18:05They think this is something that is impacting consumers,
18:07and have decided to make it a political flashpoint as well.
18:13Sanju Verma, national spokesperson,
18:15Bharatiya Janata Party,
18:16comes in to defend her party's policy decisions on it.
18:19All right.
18:20We don't have the timer.
18:21I will hopefully,
18:23I hope that all four of you will respect your co-panelists,
18:28will not speak over them,
18:29and will limit yourself to a stipulated time frame.
18:32And without much ado,
18:34I want to quickly deep dive into the numbers,
18:37because we can continue to argue,
18:40continue to debate,
18:41but what do the people really feel?
18:43What do the consumers,
18:44the citizens,
18:45and the voters of this country really feel of this entire issue?
18:49How do they perceive it?
18:51So, seawater went and spoke.
18:54This is a snap poll,
18:55and we've taken the data and analysed it
18:59in the terms of those who support the NDA,
19:01those who vote for the India Alliance,
19:03and other voters,
19:05opposition voters,
19:07NDA supporters,
19:08others,
19:08the basic fence-sitters.
19:11So, the question one that we ask,
19:13do you support government's policy of blending ethanol with petrol?
19:18And look at the numbers there.
19:19You have NDA voters,
19:22say,
19:22only 24.4%.
19:24Now,
19:24these are the voters who actually vote for the NDA,
19:26and the BJP.
19:28And even in that,
19:29less than 25% feel
19:31that it was a good move
19:33that the government has decided
19:34to blend ethanol with petrol
19:36to a limit of E20.
19:38Opposition says only 22.2%,
19:41others 14.5%.
19:43No.
19:44A strong no.
19:4648.2%.
19:47NDA voters do not support
19:49the government's policy
19:51of blending ethanol with petrol.
19:53Opposition,
19:54that's marginally higher,
19:55where 57.2% voters do not support
19:57the government's policy decision
19:59of the blending,
19:59and 49% of others,
20:02the fence-sitters,
20:03do not support it.
20:04You can look at the numbers there, viewers,
20:06and one thing really stands out,
20:07and this, for us,
20:08is a black swan moment
20:09when we analyze data,
20:11because rarely,
20:12we've seen the fence-sitters come in
20:14and tilt towards a particular side,
20:16which is the NDA and the opposition,
20:18but rarely have we ever seen
20:19the opposition and the NDA supporters,
20:22the government voters,
20:23pretty much vote,
20:26at least when it comes to a snap poll,
20:28on the same lines,
20:29and that is what you're witnessing here.
20:31So whether,
20:33whatever the politics might be,
20:35but the consumers really stand together
20:37without being divided on political lines.
20:39I'll take you to the second question here.
20:41Would you prefer to use E20 petrol
20:43in your vehicle?
20:44This was a question
20:45that was posed to responders
20:47by SeaVoter,
20:48and look at the responses there.
20:50Would you prefer to use E20 in your vehicle?
20:54NDA voters,
20:55only 18.1% say,
20:57okay, I'm fine with using ethanol blended petrol
21:01to a limit of E20 in my vehicle.
21:03Opposition, only 16.6%.
21:05Others, 15.7%.
21:07Affirm no.
21:0952.5% NDA voters say,
21:12no, we don't want to use ethanol blended fuel
21:14in our vehicle.
21:1657.9% opposition voters say,
21:19no, 55-point fen-sitters,
21:22other voters say, no.
21:23Look at those,
21:24like I said,
21:24this is a one of,
21:25it's a Hail Mary moment
21:27or a Black Swan event,
21:28whichever way you look at it,
21:29but this is once again
21:31where NDA voters
21:32and opposition voters
21:33are pretty much
21:35have the same emotion.
21:37Let's look at question number three
21:39that was asked.
21:40Does E20 petrol reduce your vehicle's mileage?
21:43This is something that the government has admitted.
21:44The government says,
21:45no, it doesn't really impact engines.
21:47Prove if it impacts engines,
21:49but the government has admitted
21:51that there is a small percentage drop in mileage.
21:53So,
21:55this question,
21:56when posed by C Voter
21:58to our respondents,
22:0051.2% NDA voters say,
22:02yes,
22:04mileage has dropped off my vehicle.
22:06It's 55.4% of opposition voters
22:09who say yes,
22:10others 50.4%.
22:11Look at the numbers there once again.
22:13It is a rare moment
22:16that you have NDA voters
22:18and you have opposition voters
22:21both having the same sentiment,
22:23which is pretty much
22:24against the blend of ethanol
22:27with petrol
22:28to a level of even E20.
22:30So, let's throw it open
22:31for our analysts
22:33and we'll cut across
22:33to the next data set.
22:35After that,
22:35I want to begin right now
22:37with Sanju Verma.
22:39Sanju Verma,
22:41like I said,
22:42it rarely ever happens.
22:43You can say
22:44it's a manufactured controversy.
22:45It's political fear-mongering,
22:47but you have both NDA voters
22:49and opposition voters
22:51and the fence-sitters.
22:52All of them have
22:54exactly the same response
22:56when it comes to the use
22:58and the blend of ethanol
22:59and petrol
23:00where E20 is concerned.
23:02Leave alone
23:02what might be
23:03the government looking at
23:05of escalating it to E25.
23:09You know, Preeti,
23:10so first things first,
23:11I'm glad I have the opportunity
23:13of your platform
23:14to undo some of the propaganda
23:16that is being peddled brazenly
23:18by vested interest.
23:19Point number one,
23:20as your colleague Siddharth said,
23:22the ethanol blending program
23:24started way back,
23:2525 years back in 2001.
23:27Between 2001 and 2010,
23:30you had E1, E5, E6, E8, E10,
23:33so on and so forth.
23:34So, has the government
23:35suddenly imposed E20
23:38without a calibrated response
23:41over the years?
23:41No.
23:42The government first
23:43had E15 in 2021,
23:45then there was E16 in 2022,
23:47there was E18 in 2023,
23:49and then E19 in 2024,
23:51and then from 2025,
23:53you had E20.
23:54So, the limited point is
23:56that the government,
23:57being sensitive
23:58to the interests
23:59of the greatest good
24:01of the greatest number,
24:02has decided
24:03to have a calibrated response.
24:04So, those saying
24:05that E20 is a whole lot
24:09of balderdash.
24:09Second point,
24:11ethanol is hydroscopic
24:12in nature?
24:13Oh, yes.
24:14Does it absorb water
24:15and moisture?
24:16Oh, yes.
24:17But, what people
24:18don't understand
24:19is that auto experts,
24:22sustained energy experts
24:23from ARAI,
24:25from Siam,
24:26and others
24:27have clearly said
24:28that water
24:29is not retained
24:31despite ethanol's
24:32hydroscopic nature
24:33for the simple reason
24:34that...
24:34Can I allow me to come in
24:36and I just want to ask you
24:37one quick question.
24:38The ARAI
24:39that you're quoting
24:41was to file a report.
24:43That report has been filed.
24:45That report is not
24:46in public domain.
24:47There is a massive
24:48hue and cry
24:48to make that report public.
24:50Parts of that report
24:51strangely are quoted
24:52in government
24:53press conferences
24:55and then
24:56parts of that report
24:57are leaked
24:57and both seem to suggest
24:59to very different points.
25:01Priti,
25:01let me just say
25:02there's a provisional report
25:03which has come
25:05in the public domain
25:06which has been quoted
25:07by two experts
25:09who know more than you,
25:10more than me
25:11and all our panelists.
25:12That is Dr. Dhafsar
25:13and Dr. Thipse
25:14from the Vishwakarma
25:15Institute of Technology.
25:16They've been working
25:18on ethanol blended
25:19programs for donkey's years
25:20and they have been quoted
25:22by ARAI
25:23who say that
25:24all BS6
25:25compliant vehicles
25:27and even BS4
25:28compliant vehicles
25:29will not retain moisture
25:31because all vehicles
25:33have internal
25:34But Sanju Verma,
25:35by that virtue,
25:35the same report
25:36also says
25:37all E10
25:38compliant vehicles
25:40will harm,
25:41their engines
25:42could be harmed
25:43because of the
25:43rubber component.
25:45That is also what
25:46apparently the
25:46provisionary report
25:47that you're quoting says.
25:49Priti, may I finish?
25:50Please, ma'am.
25:51I have quoted Dr. Bhafsar
25:52and I think Dr. Bhafsar
25:53more than all of us
25:55put together.
25:56The third
25:56and very important point,
25:58the government
25:58has not hidden anything.
26:00Is there a drop
26:01in my list?
26:01Yes.
26:02But there is no drop
26:03in mileage to the tune
26:04of 20, 30 or 40 percent.
26:06The drop in mileage
26:07in two wheelers
26:08is between 2 to 4 percent.
26:10The drop in mileage
26:11in four wheelers
26:12is between 3 to 6 percent.
26:14The fourth
26:15and most important point
26:16is this.
26:18Please understand
26:20that last year alone
26:21Maruti Suzuki
26:22serviced how many vehicles?
26:2428 million.
26:26That is 2.8 crore vehicles.
26:29And it said
26:29out of this 15 million,
26:31as in 1.5 proud vehicles
26:33were not E20 certified.
26:36And yet when they came
26:37to the service station,
26:39there was no abnormal wear and tear.
26:42I would like to stress
26:43on the point
26:44abnormal wear and tear.
26:45one of the vehicles
26:47is not the same.
26:47All right.
26:47Okay, Sanju Varma,
26:48I want to now move on
26:49in the debate.
26:50You named Maruti.
26:52Honda and Toyota
26:53both have also given out
26:54public statements
26:55where they've said
26:56E10 vehicle compliant
26:58to ethanol
26:59will face issues
27:00with E20.
27:01These are statements
27:02also given by two companies.
27:04But the point
27:05is not that, madam.
27:06It's not an argument.
27:07I want to open up
27:08the debate
27:09because there were
27:09multiple facets
27:10because right now
27:11what we are following
27:11is the 2021
27:12ethanol roadmap policy.
27:14And as per that,
27:15number one,
27:16ethanol blended fuel
27:17had to be made
27:18cheaper than regular fuel.
27:20E10 and E20
27:21had to be sold together.
27:22We don't see
27:23E10 fuel at all
27:24right now.
27:25Number three,
27:26case of example,
27:27Brazil,
27:27it took 30 years
27:28for them to reach E27.
27:30We have done it
27:31like you said,
27:32not that we woke up
27:35and we marked it up
27:35to E20.
27:36I'll come back to you.
27:38E20,
27:39but we have,
27:39some would suggest,
27:40done it in a hurry.
27:41But there is a flip side
27:42and I will bring in
27:43Mr. Kalapa
27:43into this conversation.
27:45Mr. Kalapa,
27:46look at how it can actually
27:48profit and benefit
27:49our country.
27:50Number one,
27:51dependence on crude oil
27:52massively drops.
27:54Foreign exchange
27:54massively we save.
27:56And then,
27:57the windfall,
27:58especially where
27:59sugarcane farmers
28:00in this country
28:01are concerned.
28:02We are becoming
28:03self-reliant
28:04and the government
28:04says this could
28:05also be
28:06the insecurities
28:08of certain
28:09foreign players.
28:14See,
28:15Priti,
28:16the first thing
28:16is that
28:17the hygroscopic
28:19nature
28:19of ethanol,
28:21you know,
28:22similarly,
28:23a brake fluid
28:24also has
28:25a hygroscopic
28:26nature.
28:26But the brake fluid
28:28is completely
28:29tight,
28:29airtight,
28:30right?
28:31But however,
28:31the fuel tank
28:32is not airtight,
28:33therefore,
28:34I have a live
28:35example.
28:36And there is a scooter
28:37which works in my
28:38office.
28:39Over the last
28:40six times,
28:41the scooter
28:43has developed
28:43water within the
28:45tank and we have
28:46had to side it
28:47service for at least
28:48three occasions.
28:49Now,
28:50point is this,
28:51Priti,
28:51that Indians love
28:52our vehicles.
28:53We spend a lot
28:54of money on our
28:55vehicles,
28:55right?
28:56And yes,
28:57there is a larger
28:57good,
28:58yes,
28:59there is a larger,
29:00you know,
29:00the fuel part,
29:03the dependency
29:03on,
29:04you know,
29:05the external
29:05parts,
29:06it comes down.
29:07Yes,
29:07all that is
29:08right,
29:08but not at the
29:09cost of our
29:10vehicles.
29:11We love our
29:11vehicles.
29:12Many people
29:13spend lakhs
29:14and lakhs
29:14on buying
29:15vehicles,
29:15right?
29:16So,
29:16they are not
29:17going to,
29:17you know,
29:18experiment,
29:18have this
29:19gigantic
29:21experiment at
29:22the cost of
29:23their vehicles,
29:24which the
29:24government wants
29:25them to do,
29:26or do it like
29:27Thailand.
29:28In Thailand,
29:29you have the
29:29option of E0,
29:31you have the
29:31option of E20
29:32and more,
29:33but that option
29:35is not being
29:35presented to us.
29:36In fact,
29:37if you go to
29:38a petrol,
29:39if you go to
29:39a petrol dealer,
29:41he will tell
29:41you that if
29:43there is a
29:43mixing,
29:44if there is a
29:44mixing of,
29:46say,
29:4610,000 litres,
29:47then 8,000
29:48litres is petrol,
29:49and 2,000 litres
29:51is ethanol,
29:52Ma'am,
29:53you cannot come in,
29:53I need to throw
29:54open the debate,
29:55allow me to have
29:56a fair debate.
29:57Sorry,
29:58sir,
29:58make your point,
29:59quickly make your
29:59point.
30:00The mixing is
30:01not good.
30:03Sir,
30:03the mixing is
30:04not good,
30:05therefore,
30:06the 2,000 litres
30:07of ethanol
30:08stays right
30:09underneath,
30:10and then above
30:11that is the
30:11petrol.
30:12So,
30:13what is being
30:13consumed is
30:14main petrol,
30:15then what
30:15happens is that
30:16the ethanol
30:17never mixes
30:18with the
30:19petrol.
30:20So,
30:20this is a
30:21serious problem
30:21which petrol
30:22dealers are facing.
30:23I want to
30:24quickly cut across
30:25and give up
30:25the others.
30:26government done to
30:26solve this
30:26problem?
30:27Allow me to
30:28give out the
30:28next set of
30:29data,
30:29Mr. Kalappa,
30:30because one
30:31thing,
30:31we can debate
30:32ad nauseam,
30:33but what do
30:34the people
30:34really feel?
30:35One can say
30:36it's a
30:36manufactured
30:36controversy,
30:37fear-mongering,
30:38and people have
30:38really bought
30:39into it.
30:39India is very
30:40big on conspiracy
30:41theories.
30:42You can argue
30:42that,
30:43but this is what
30:43the people feel,
30:44and what we are
30:44really witnessing
30:45in terms of
30:46numbers is,
30:46for the first
30:47time,
30:47you have
30:48NDA supporters
30:49and opposition
30:51supporters having
30:52exactly the same
30:53response.
30:54It never really
30:54happens.
30:55Sanju Varmai,
30:55it needs to
30:56register.
30:56Let me take you
30:57next to the
30:58other set of
30:59data.
30:59Question asks,
31:00does ethanol
31:01blended petrol
31:02damage vehicles?
31:03NDA voters,
31:03nearly 50%,
31:0549.9% say yes,
31:07it damages
31:07vehicles.
31:08Opposition goes
31:09up to 60.2%.
31:11Others,
31:12fence-sitters,
31:1250.2%.
31:14Yes is only,
31:16that does ethanol
31:16blended petrol
31:18damage vehicles?
31:19Yes, but only
31:20certain vehicles,
31:21only 15%,
31:2215.9% NDA voters
31:25actually feel that
31:27it only damages
31:28certain vehicles.
31:29No, it does not
31:30damage vehicles,
31:31even NDA voters.
31:32Look at that figure
31:33there.
31:33Less than 10%
31:34feel it doesn't
31:35damage vehicles.
31:36So, once again,
31:38NDA, opposition
31:40voters,
31:41fence-sitters,
31:41all feeling the
31:42same.
31:42The next question,
31:43is making E20
31:45petrol mandatory?
31:46Unfair to owners
31:48of older vehicles,
31:49the E10 compliant
31:50vehicles.
31:51NDA voters,
31:52yes, it's unfair,
31:53they say.
31:5449.2%.
31:5565.8%
31:57whopping percent
31:57of opposition
31:58voters feel that
31:59yes, making it
32:00mandatory is unfair.
32:02Fence-sitters,
32:0351.2%.
32:04Look at the numbers
32:06there.
32:06Once again,
32:07the response is
32:09similar to the
32:10other six questions
32:11that have been asked.
32:12Let me take you
32:12through another question.
32:14Are automobile
32:14manufacturers providing
32:16accurate information
32:18about E20?
32:20Yes is only
32:2218.6%
32:24of NDA voters.
32:26Only 18.6%
32:27NDA voters feel
32:28that they are being
32:29given the right
32:30information.
32:31Most of them feel
32:32that they are not
32:33being given
32:33the right information.
32:36Opposition voters,
32:3724.2%
32:38feel that yes,
32:40automobile
32:41manufacturers provide
32:42accurate information,
32:43which is strange
32:44if you look at it.
32:45For the first time,
32:46the opposition
32:46actually believes
32:48that they are being
32:49provided more
32:50correct information
32:51than NDA voters.
32:52There's clearly
32:52it could be
32:54communication of
32:55the government
32:55that they haven't
32:56been able to
32:56communicate properly
32:57and make people
32:59understand that
33:00ethanol blended
33:00fuel is good
33:01and why it's good
33:02because most people
33:03are not buying
33:03the government's
33:04argument.
33:05I want to cut
33:05across to
33:06Tahseen Poonawala
33:07who has also
33:08carried a crusade
33:09against ethanol
33:10blending.
33:10Some Tahseen say
33:12that you are
33:12politically motivated
33:14but over to you.
33:18Thank you,
33:19Preeti.
33:20Thank you so much
33:20for having me
33:21on the show.
33:22Honourable Union
33:23Minister Hardipuriji
33:24called me
33:25a failed
33:26unemployed
33:27social activist.
33:29Honourable Minister
33:30Titit Katkariji
33:31says I am funded
33:32by the oil lobby
33:33which is worth
33:3422 lakh crore rupees.
33:36My simple question,
33:38Preeti,
33:38I don't understand
33:39all these numbers.
33:39It's a very simple
33:40question.
33:41I have three to
33:42four questions.
33:42I am not against
33:44ethanol 20.
33:45Please bring ethanol
33:4520,
33:46bring ethanol
33:4785,
33:47bring ethanol
33:48100.
33:48If Nitin Katkari
33:49sir can become
33:50Einstein and Newton,
33:51bring ethanol
33:52200,
33:53run his car on
33:53water.
33:54No one's against
33:54it.
33:55We are saying
33:55my vehicle is
33:57ethanol 10
33:57compliant.
33:58Kindly give me
33:59ethanol 10
34:00petrol for my
34:01vehicle till it
34:02phases out.
34:03As per the
34:03Neeti Aayog report,
34:05the CIM report
34:06and the
34:06AREI report.
34:08Secondly,
34:08Preeti,
34:09the reports that
34:10the BJP spokesperson
34:11quotes,
34:12why aren't they
34:12in public domain?
34:13If this policy
34:14was in your
34:15interest Preeti,
34:16my interest Preeti,
34:17why is it that
34:17it can't be on
34:18India 2D on
34:19Preeti's show
34:20and Preeti can
34:21read the report?
34:22What is so secretive
34:23about a report
34:23that is in our
34:24interest,
34:25yours and mine?
34:26Third thing,
34:27I am again saying
34:29that as so far
34:30as the ethanol
34:31zero is concerned,
34:33the price of that
34:34should come down
34:34because countries
34:35that import
34:36pure petrol from
34:37us are selling
34:37it at a lower
34:38price.
34:39And the fourth
34:40thing,
34:40vehicles that have
34:41a problem because
34:42of ethanol 20,
34:43which are ethanol
34:4410 compliant
34:44vehicles prior to
34:452023,
34:46those problems
34:47should be solved
34:48and should be
34:49solved transparently.
34:50Now please
34:51understand Preeti,
34:52there are two or
34:52three things.
34:53This government
34:54started by there
34:55is absolutely no
34:56problem.
34:57Recently,
34:58the most honourable
34:58minister,
34:59Hardi Puri said,
35:00your gasket will
35:01have to be changed
35:01not in 50,000
35:03kilometres but
35:0330,000 kilometres.
35:04Did he take my
35:05consent before
35:06allowing this to
35:07happen?
35:08Nitin Gadkari
35:09sir says,
35:10your washers will
35:10be changed free of
35:11charge.
35:11But Preeti,
35:12you will appreciate
35:13most vehicle
35:14owners have just
35:14one vehicle.
35:15Whose permission
35:16are you taking
35:16that their vehicles
35:18can be damaged
35:19or the government
35:19will change their
35:20parts?
35:20And to change
35:21their parts,
35:21go to the
35:22company,
35:22showroom,
35:22keep the
35:23vehicle there
35:23for three,
35:24four days.
35:24What about the
35:25inconvenience cost
35:26to me?
35:26Did you think
35:26this out?
35:27That is why
35:30ARAI said that
35:30roll out this
35:31programme in 2030
35:33mandatory and
35:34allow the vehicles
35:35to phase out.
35:36Preeti,
35:36I have just one
35:37more thing to
35:37say.
35:37It's a very
35:38simple question.
35:39If ethanol 10
35:41compliant vehicles
35:42could take
35:42ethanol 20
35:43petrol,
35:44if they could,
35:45why the hell
35:46did these
35:47vehicles upgrade
35:48themselves and
35:49why the hell
35:49did they do a
35:50certification?
35:51Why do the
35:51instruction manuals
35:52of these vehicles
35:53say that you
35:54cannot go out
35:54ethanol?
35:55Everyone will
35:56get equal time.
35:57Please understand
35:58that.
35:59All right,
35:59can we just put
36:00the faders down?
36:01I want to go
36:01through the next
36:02set of data and
36:03I want to bring
36:03in Rajat Sethi
36:04who has been
36:04waiting very
36:05patiently for his
36:06turn.
36:06I just want to
36:07go through the
36:07next set of
36:08data, right?
36:08The other
36:09question that
36:09was asked,
36:10should consumers
36:11get a choice
36:11between E20
36:12and regular
36:13petrol?
36:14NDA voters,
36:1572.4% of
36:17them says yes,
36:18give us a
36:18choice.
36:19We need to
36:20pick opposition
36:2179.9%,
36:23fence-sitters
36:2475.6%,
36:25no is only
36:266.6% where
36:28NDA responders
36:28are concerned
36:29said that no,
36:30don't give us a
36:31choice, we'll go
36:32with ethanol.
36:32Look at the
36:33figures there.
36:34I want to
36:35quickly, because
36:35we are short
36:36on time, go
36:36across to the
36:37other question.
36:38Should ethanol
36:38blended petrol be
36:39sold at a lower
36:40price than regular
36:41petrol?
36:4275.6% NDA
36:44voters say yes.
36:45It should be
36:46sold at a lesser
36:47price than regular
36:48petrol because the
36:49government itself
36:49says that it gives
36:50lesser mileage.
36:52Opposition 75.2%,
36:54so look at the
36:55numbers there.
36:55This must be
36:56startling, it
36:57should be worrying
36:58for the government
36:59because it seems
37:00NDA voters are
37:02raising a question
37:03a lot bigger than
37:05opposition voters.
37:07The trust deficit
37:08on the communication,
37:09on the ethanol
37:10policy is more
37:11with the NDA
37:12voters.
37:12Look at the
37:12figures there.
37:13The other
37:14question, would
37:15you prefer E20
37:16petrol if it is
37:17sold at a cheaper
37:18price?
37:21NDA voters say
37:22yes, 43.8%.
37:24You give me an
37:25option if I want
37:26it, I will go to
37:27it and I will buy
37:28it.
37:28Opposition voters
37:3038%.
37:30Others, 39.8%.
37:33I want to bring
37:34out the other
37:34last two questions
37:35as well.
37:36Government says
37:37ethanol blending
37:38will reduce
37:39crude oil imports.
37:40Do you agree?
37:41We'll give out the
37:41figures right there
37:42while we go into
37:42our chats.
37:43Main reason behind
37:44the government's
37:45push for E20
37:46petrol.
37:47What were the
37:47reasons?
37:48Pull out all the
37:48data, put it there.
37:49Let's cut across
37:50back to our
37:51panelists.
37:51And Rajat, I want
37:52to bring you in.
37:52Rajat, the fact is
37:53the government can
37:55come up with a
37:55great policy which
37:56is good for this
37:57country, but if
37:58it hasn't been
37:58able to convince
37:59the people that
38:00it is good for
38:01you, then the
38:02government needs
38:03to climb down.
38:03Because right now,
38:05and I have never
38:05seen it, Rajat, I
38:06think you've been
38:07on this show, the
38:08political stock
38:09exchange, multiple
38:10times, where if
38:11you actually look at
38:13the numbers, some
38:14of the data points
38:15seem to suggest that
38:17NDA voters have a
38:18larger trust deficit
38:19when it comes to
38:20ethanol building
38:20policy of the
38:21government than
38:21even opposition
38:22voters.
38:24See, well,
38:25Preeti, good
38:26evening to you and
38:27your viewers.
38:27See, first thing
38:28that we ought to
38:29understand, which
38:30is very interesting
38:31is that a lot of
38:32questions, the way
38:33it were framed, is
38:34very interesting.
38:35Each time you're
38:36asking the
38:37respondent to say,
38:38what do you feel?
38:39Did you ask the
38:40questions that, okay,
38:41have you over the
38:42last one year or so,
38:43have you gone to the
38:45service station more
38:46in higher frequency
38:48than just going by
38:50the feeling thing?
38:50If your question
38:51framing in itself is
38:52problematic, it will
38:53be garbage in and
38:54garbage out.
38:54So, Rajat, you're
38:56saying there's a
38:57problem with the
38:58questions?
38:59No, if you want to
39:00get the origin, see, I
39:01don't know.
39:01It could be right, it
39:02could be wrong, but I
39:03cannot conclusively reach
39:04to this argument that
39:06you are trying to make
39:07here.
39:07Did you ask that
39:08question?
39:09I mean, the entire
39:09framing in survey 101
39:11is that how do you
39:12frame the question?
39:13Okay, so Rajat, you're
39:14saying the questions
39:15are leading, see,
39:16voter ask leading
39:17questions.
39:17No, no, sorry.
39:19Okay, I'm just
39:19asking, you're saying
39:19see, voter ask leading
39:20questions.
39:21This is a leading
39:23question and this is
39:24how hysteria at a
39:26mass level is built.
39:27If you ask everybody
39:29objective questions,
39:30which they can
39:31objectively quote, then
39:33you can start building
39:34an overall story that
39:35people are actually
39:36ending up in the
39:36service station much
39:37more frequently than
39:39they used to.
39:40Are these the older
39:41vehicles which are
39:41ending up or a
39:42newer vehicle which
39:43is ending up?
39:43Those kind of
39:44service also have to
39:45be there and
39:46corresponding to that
39:47then you can go on
39:48to the narrative part
39:49which we are fair to
39:50discuss and we should
39:51discuss that narrative
39:52and hysteria is there.
39:53Today, even I would
39:54doubt putting E20
39:55after looking at all
39:56this data that 70-80%
39:57people are feeling
39:58that this is going to
39:59damage my engine.
40:00Why would I go and
40:01fill that with my E20
40:02patrol?
40:03See, and tough policy
40:04measures, you don't
40:05give choices in
40:06democracy.
40:07There are other ways
40:07in which you can vent
40:08and make your
40:09political choices but
40:10for every decision if
40:11you want to leave a
40:11choice, who is going
40:12to follow it?
40:13See, again, science
40:14around the world, forget
40:15Indian studies.
40:17I will quote you
40:17American studies, Oak
40:19Ridge Institute, NREAL,
40:20International, European
40:21studies, several
40:23studies have happened
40:24around the world which
40:25have proven used old
40:27engines, used new
40:28engines.
40:28In certain cases, in
40:30certain old engine
40:31cases, they found that
40:33yes, there was some
40:33degree of corrosion.
40:34It's not like all these
40:35vehicles were in the
40:37service station per se.
40:38So there is much, much,
40:40much more hysteria on
40:41this than real
40:42debate about this.
40:42The roadmap, ethanol
40:43blending fuel roadmap
40:44of 2021, whatever was
40:46the roadmap and the
40:47checkpoints, none of that
40:48has been followed.
40:49If you actually go back
40:50to it, because we've
40:51actually sat down and
40:52broken it down, because
40:53it said in that, that
40:54ethanol blended fuel
40:55will be made cheaper
40:56than regular fuel, that's
40:57not quite happened.
40:58Then it said that both
40:59E10 and E20 will be
41:01made available
41:02simultaneously, that's
41:03not quite happened.
41:04Then it gave an
41:04example of Brazil and
41:05say we'll follow that
41:06trajectory, Brazil did
41:08it in 30 years.
41:09That's not happened.
41:10But yes, there's a lot
41:10of good as well that
41:12could have come out of
41:12this policy.
41:13I just want to give
41:14one minute to all our
41:15panelists right now, and
41:16we'll see if we have
41:17more time after that.
41:19Keep your point to one
41:20minute concluding
41:21opinion.
41:22Can we go with the BJP
41:23spokesperson, Sanju
41:24Verma?
41:25Ma'am, your time
41:25starts now.
41:27And my time starts now.
41:28I request you to not
41:29interject me.
41:30You did not interject
41:31Tahseen Poonawala.
41:32And stop being rude
41:33when I ask for time if I
41:34can come in.
41:35It's a debate.
41:35I have every right to
41:36request you humbly.
41:37Stop getting agitated
41:38with me.
41:40Now let me make my
41:41point.
41:41People who are
41:42complaining about
41:43corrosion, buy XP100
41:46fuel.
41:46It is slightly more
41:47expensive, but it has
41:48high octane ratings and
41:50is 100% free of
41:52ethanol.
41:52Buy a fuel stabilizer.
41:54Don't come and vent on
41:55national television.
41:56And I will say one
41:57more thing.
41:58What Rajat said, taking
42:00off from that, there
42:01are one lakh, you
42:03know, petrol pump
42:04stations, giving
42:05choice of E10 and
42:06E20 is going to be a
42:08logistical nightmare.
42:10So if the government
42:11has decided not to do
42:13it, we should support
42:14the government.
42:15Everything in a
42:16democracy is not about
42:17choice.
42:17For instance, you and
42:19me, we get a 14.5
42:22kg cylinder at
42:23942 or 952
42:26rupees.
42:26The international
42:27equivalent is
42:281800 rupees and
42:30subsidized cylinder is
42:32642 rupees.
42:33So don't talk about
42:34the government trying
42:35to squeeze the
42:36middle class.
42:37But my final point in
42:3820 seconds, because
42:39this comes up again
42:40and again.
42:41Average price per
42:42litre of petrol in
42:43India, 105 rupees.
42:44In China, 147.
42:46In Japan, 155
42:48rupees.
42:49In European Union,
42:51166 rupees.
42:52In France, 168
42:53rupees.
42:54And in Germany, 176
42:56rupees.
42:56In these countries,
42:57they use gallons.
42:59It's a hard cut and
43:01some would think that
43:02it's rude to interrupt
43:03others, but that's a
43:04matter of another
43:05debate.
43:06Mr. Kalappa, you have
43:06one minute.
43:07Please go ahead and
43:07I'll take one minute
43:08each.
43:12See, the first thing
43:13is that the ethanol
43:14has a hygroscopic
43:16nature, which is
43:17causing a serious
43:18problem for vehicle
43:19users and water
43:20accumulation is a
43:21result of this.
43:22Second part is that
43:23the calorific content
43:24of ethanol is much
43:26less.
43:27Therefore, the wear and
43:28tear and the carbon
43:29deposits are much
43:30higher.
43:31So this is a second
43:32problem which the
43:33government has not
43:34thought about.
43:35Three is that all of
43:36these vehicles are
43:37being made use of
43:38like guinea pigs.
43:39The garment of India
43:41appears to behave like
43:42an alchemist, which
43:44has struck up some
43:45kind of an idea, which
43:47is allowing it to, you
43:49know, enrich itself.
43:50And this is not going
43:51to, you know, help
43:53the consumers.
43:55In fact, the people
43:57who are running
43:58vehicles are seriously
43:59hurt by this.
44:00In fact, when vehicle
44:02manufacturers come and
44:03speak about the goods
44:04of ethanol, every
44:06single person has a
44:08feeling that the
44:09government is arm
44:09twisted.
44:10My producer is timing
44:12it at the back end.
44:12Your time is up.
44:14Rajat, your one
44:14minute starts now,
44:15sir.
44:15Make your point.
44:17Well, I think
44:18government for the
44:19sake of clarity should
44:21come out with peer
44:22reviewed journals.
44:23They should talk about
44:24scientists talking
44:25about this.
44:26This hygroscopic
44:27nature is not
44:27something which is a
44:28news to the
44:29government or the
44:29policymakers.
44:30They've thought about
44:31it.
44:31There are trainings
44:32that were given to
44:33petrol pumps.
44:35There is a proper
44:36protocol around which
44:37you continue to mix
44:37this.
44:38There are blenders,
44:38a whole host of
44:39things which was done
44:40to the petrol pumps
44:42itself.
44:43Now you can, it's
44:44not like the
44:44government has
44:45suddenly woken up
44:45to this new
44:46scientific discovery.
44:47The problem here is
44:48largely it is
44:50broad, it's the
44:51narrative which has
44:52been disrupted.
44:56Okay, Rajat,
44:5720 seconds before
44:58I'm told, your
44:59output has frozen.
45:00So I'm going to
45:01leave it at that.
45:02I want to bring in,
45:03okay, we have
45:03Tahseen there.
45:04Tahseen, your last
45:05one minute starts
45:06now.
45:07Go ahead, sir.
45:11Preeti, a vehicle is
45:13the second most
45:14expensive thing an
45:16Indian buys.
45:17Before buying a
45:18vehicle, every Indian
45:19consults his family
45:20members or her family
45:21members, friends,
45:22goes to four or five
45:23showrooms.
45:24It's a matter of
45:25happiness, not a
45:26matter of stress.
45:27When we buy a
45:27vehicle, we pay
45:2815 years tax in
45:29advance.
45:30We pay GST, some
45:31places we pay
45:32SES, we pay road
45:32tax, we pay toll
45:34tax, we pay parking
45:35tax, we pay insurance.
45:36The assumption is the
45:37government will give us
45:38what is good for our
45:39vehicle after paying
45:39tax on our tax paid
45:41money to buy a vehicle,
45:42double taxation.
45:43All I'm asking is, I
45:44am not against E20,
45:46E85, anything.
45:47I am saying my
45:48vehicle is E10
45:49compliant.
45:49Kindly give it to me.
45:51Hardip Puriji does not
45:52have a right to say the
45:53gasket will get
45:54spoilt, not in 50,000
45:55but 30,000 kilometers.
45:57That's not consent.
45:58Nitin Katkariji does not
45:59have a right to say
46:00washers are the only
46:01thing that will get
46:02spoilt and go put
46:05other things on it.
46:06I didn't sign up for
46:07it.
46:07I signed for a vehicle
46:08to be as free.
46:09It is not in my
46:10interest that it is
46:11spoilt.
46:11Okay, I believe your
46:12time is up.
46:13You know, we can get
46:14into the merits of the
46:15argument which we did
46:16try to get into right
46:17now.
46:18But if you're just
46:18looking at how people
46:20are perceiving this
46:21massive controversy which
46:23affects consumers,
46:24directly, then the
46:25government needs to pay
46:26heed to these numbers
46:27because for someone who
46:28studies data, has been
46:29looking at data for the
46:31last couple of years,
46:32this is surprising.
46:34For the first time,
46:35we've seen in some
46:36questions a larger trust
46:38deficit coming in from
46:39NDA voters than even
46:41opposition voters.
46:42So the consumers, the
46:44citizens, the voters feel
46:45that A, they are not
46:46being given options and
46:48they are seemingly not
46:49being given enough
46:50information.
46:51We leave it at that and
46:53we leave it for our
46:54viewers who are joining
46:55us to decide what side
46:56of this debate they
46:57stand on.
46:58Thank you for
46:59watching.
46:59Bye-bye.
47:00Bye.
Comments