- 1 week ago
John and Christian discuss spiritual grooming, how it can appear inside religious communities, and why people may not recognize it while it is happening. They examine the difference between pastoral care and spiritual control, including dependency, secrecy, isolation, information control, and the use of spiritual language to influence people.
The conversation also explores examples from church culture in Latin America, Costa Rica, and the United States, including financial pressure, filtered teaching, cover-up culture, and questions people can ask to evaluate whether a community is healthy or controlling.
00:00 Introduction
01:33 What Is Spiritual Grooming?
08:12 How Grooming Manipulates Trust and Identity
13:36 Pastoral Care vs. Spiritual Control
18:42 Isolation, Dependency, and Replacing the Conscience
25:47 Music, Teaching, and Information Control
36:31 Using Personal Information to Manipulate
41:21 Spiritual Grooming in Costa Rica
45:18 Cover-Up Culture and Financial Grooming
49:44 Questions to Identify Spiritual Grooming
54:37 Final Thoughts
55:06 Closing
______________________
Weaponized Religion: From Christian Identity to the NAR:
Paperback: https://www.amazon.com/dp/1735160962
Kindle: https://www.amazon.com/dp/B0DCGGZX3K
______________________
– Support the channel: https://www.patreon.com/branham
– Subscribe to the channel: https://www.youtube.com/channel/UCBSpezVG15TVG-lOYMRXuyQ
– Visit the website: https://william-branham.org
– Follow on Facebook: https://www.facebook.com/WilliamBranhamOrg
– Follow on TikTok: https://www.tiktok.com/@william.m.branham
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– Buy the books: https://william-branham.org/site/books
The conversation also explores examples from church culture in Latin America, Costa Rica, and the United States, including financial pressure, filtered teaching, cover-up culture, and questions people can ask to evaluate whether a community is healthy or controlling.
00:00 Introduction
01:33 What Is Spiritual Grooming?
08:12 How Grooming Manipulates Trust and Identity
13:36 Pastoral Care vs. Spiritual Control
18:42 Isolation, Dependency, and Replacing the Conscience
25:47 Music, Teaching, and Information Control
36:31 Using Personal Information to Manipulate
41:21 Spiritual Grooming in Costa Rica
45:18 Cover-Up Culture and Financial Grooming
49:44 Questions to Identify Spiritual Grooming
54:37 Final Thoughts
55:06 Closing
______________________
Weaponized Religion: From Christian Identity to the NAR:
Paperback: https://www.amazon.com/dp/1735160962
Kindle: https://www.amazon.com/dp/B0DCGGZX3K
______________________
– Support the channel: https://www.patreon.com/branham
– Subscribe to the channel: https://www.youtube.com/channel/UCBSpezVG15TVG-lOYMRXuyQ
– Visit the website: https://william-branham.org
– Follow on Facebook: https://www.facebook.com/WilliamBranhamOrg
– Follow on TikTok: https://www.tiktok.com/@william.m.branham
– Follow on Twitter: https://twitter.com/wmbhr
– Buy the books: https://william-branham.org/site/books
Category
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LearningTranscript
00:31Hello, and welcome to another episode of the William Branham Historical Research Podcast.
00:36I'm your host, John Collins, the author and founder of William Branham Historical Research
00:40at william-branham.org, and with me I have my co-host and friend, Christian Arce, former
00:46charismatic in Latin America.
00:48Christian, it's good to be back, and I'm so glad that you came back to talk through this.
00:53I'm so fascinated with Central and South America.
00:56As I mentioned last time with you, I would just love to go into Central America and start
01:02digging through all the archives and the historical places, the archaeological sites, etc.
01:08But I'm even more fascinated to pick your brain and try to understand how charismania morphed
01:16and shifted as it traveled into Central America and finally into South America.
01:21There's just so much there to talk through, and yes, they're both similar, but they're
01:26also a little bit different.
01:28So anyway, I'm glad to have you back, and our topic today is pretty important, I feel.
01:33We're going to be talking about spiritual grooming.
01:35Yes.
01:36Thank you, John.
01:37It's been a wonderful experience, and yeah, you can come over here to Costa Rica, and we
01:42will go together and find, I'm pretty sure I'm going to find a lot of great things with
01:47you and have a wonderful talk.
01:49And yes, we're going to be talking about spiritual grooming, and why is that important?
01:55And aside from the cases, the latest cases that we've been watching in United States, and even
02:03in Costa Rica with sentences by the judicial system and whatnot, I think what it is really
02:11important is to establish a couple of things first.
02:15The first one being, maybe your community is not the problem, but certainly you have friends
02:23that could be going through a spiritual grooming situation.
02:29So that's really important because it's not something that you openly talk about it until
02:36it happens most of the time.
02:38So this is a really important thing that we should be discussing.
02:43So if you, just like me, are part of a community of believers, it doesn't matter if you're Christian,
02:53if you're Catholic, if you're whatever denomination you are.
02:57This is a really important subject that everyone should be aware of.
03:03Absolutely.
03:03And people are going to ask, I'm going to go ahead and get it out in there.
03:07What is spiritual grooming, and how do I know if I'm being spiritually groomed?
03:11The sad truth is, a lot of people are in churches, both in Latin America and United States and
03:19abroad, who are being spiritually groomed, and they don't even realize it because they
03:24associate it with Christianity.
03:26They think, this is how Christianity is.
03:28I'm supposed to be groomed, right?
03:30Not knowing that groomed is a bad thing, not a good thing.
03:33But if we define it, basically, it's the idea where somebody is using faith or authority,
03:43intimidation, fear, things like, they might say, God told me.
03:47And they use this language, basically, that prepares a person to accept their control so
03:53that they can be exploited for various reasons.
03:56Some good, actually, some bad.
03:59But the bad cases, sometimes it leads to silencing them or abuse.
04:05And spiritual grooming is basically this idea that if you say that I am God's servant, but
04:13I am over you as the leader servant, I'm the one who is making you be my servant so that
04:20I can be God's servant, you're probably being spiritually groomed.
04:24That's a thing that is widespread in Christianity today.
04:29So I would define it like that, and I'm sure you can expand on this.
04:34But the idea is that somebody is manipulating you.
04:37That's really the bottom line.
04:38Yeah.
04:40There's a couple of things that I would like to explore with you, and I would
04:43really like to know your opinion on this as well, because once you see a pattern appearing
04:50once, like every other church pretty much in Latin America, so you start to see that
05:01maybe it's more common than what you expected, and maybe there's an underlying reason why
05:10that is happening.
05:11So, now, you see this through history, you see this through many, many churches, Latin
05:19America, North America, Europe, pretty much everywhere.
05:23So, and I'm pretty sure you've heard this, it's like, I feel something in my spirit that
05:31I want to tell you from God.
05:33So, phrases like that.
05:35So, what effectively happens is that a leader who approaches takes the place of a mediator
05:46between God and the person being groomed.
05:50Now, of course, they're not very open about saying that, but at the end of the day, that's
05:58exactly what happens.
05:58Now, a really good definition of grooming for me would be like, and I wrote it down, so I'm
06:06going to read it because I might forget it.
06:09So, the definition, the best definition I could find is a situation in which a person or group
06:17of people holding power within a religious hierarchy manipulates another person for their
06:24own benefit or for the benefit of the group.
06:27Now, the most common cases, of course, sadly, have been either financial benefits or sexual
06:36gratification in any way, shape or form.
06:39Now, but there's more to it, especially if we understand that most of, well, not most of,
06:49but certainly a lot of leaders within a religious organization have this narcissistic personality
06:55in which sometimes they don't need money or they don't need like any sexual favor or any
07:02kind of sexual connotation within the benefit they're getting, but just the admiration of
07:09a person, just a sense of control over that person.
07:13So, that's also something that's very important because you might say, well, I've never been into
07:19any kind of sexual problem with my leaders or any financial problem with my leaders, but later
07:28on, we will see that those are not the only things that are going on with spiritual grooming.
07:36Now, where do you think the origin of this is?
07:41And I'm going to ask you that question because it sounds very familiar to me when in Genesis
07:50the serpent presents itself as someone who implicitly knows the will of God
07:57and has like a way that Eve does not have.
08:02So, that's, this sounds really familiar to me when somebody says, hey, let me give you
08:10the interpretation for this.
08:12I've thought about that too.
08:13And, you know, the funny part about it is humanity, if you read the Bible and you understand
08:19what it is saying in Genesis, humanity changed course.
08:22Now they know that knowledge of good and evil.
08:25I've heard sermons where they try to take out that good and evil part of that phrase and
08:31they just say, it was the tree of knowledge, later the tree of knowledge, but it isn't
08:34just that they know good and evil.
08:36And so they can make choices, choices for good choices for evil.
08:40And so within every person in basic human psychology, you have the ability to manipulate another
08:47person.
08:48If you choose to do the evil thing, you also have the ability to do the right thing and
08:53be transparent, open.
08:56Instead of grooming somebody to do something, you could instead ask them to do something
09:01and explain, here's why I would like for you to do this.
09:04But a person who's grooming, they won't do this.
09:07The sad part of it is exactly what you just said.
09:10Most people, when they hear the word, they think the sexual connotation, because in the
09:15news media, that's what usually hits the news.
09:18When somebody's been groomed for sex, that's big news.
09:21But what about somebody who's been groomed to, I don't know, mow your lawn?
09:28You don't hear about that in the news, right?
09:30But you can do this to a person.
09:32In fact, you can groom somebody to paint your fence.
09:35Huckleberry Finn did this.
09:37It's kind of a...
09:39Well, I totally agree with you, and I have an example that is very common, and nobody seems
09:45to get the two concepts together.
09:48What happens in a church or in a community where you say, hey, it is our call to serve
09:56God.
09:56And the way we're going to do it is we're going to set up a group of people who will
10:02help
10:03with logistics here.
10:04So we're going to come to the church for a union to do logistics for every service.
10:13So you're required to be here at least three times a week.
10:18So this is what is expected for you, because we all have to serve.
10:23The other thing that really surprises people who are not part of the movement and don't
10:30understand how this works, when people hear that there are people inside of a church being
10:35spiritually groomed, they immediately think that these people must be unintelligent.
10:41And it's kind of the opposite of that, really, because at least in my experience and my research,
10:47what I have found is, and talking with the people in support groups, what you have are people
10:52who are highly intelligent, who work with their brains all week, and then they go sit in
10:58church on Sunday and their brain is tired, because they've been exercising their brain,
11:01so they shut off all of their critical thinking, and then suddenly the leader on the stage hijacks
11:09their mind.
11:09That's one of the things that happens.
11:12I'll never forget how shocked I was, because I'm one of the people that works with my mind.
11:18I'll never forget how shocked I was that I believed the craziest things.
11:21But it was because I was sitting in church and my brain would be tired.
11:26Now, if you're a carpenter, you're swinging your hammer, you sit in church, and it's entirely
11:32different.
11:32Your arm's tired, not your brain.
11:34And so there are people who have varying levels of acceptance of this grooming.
11:40I think that's the point I'm trying to make.
11:42But there's a clear process.
11:43I don't know if you've thought through this or not.
11:45But I came from a family who had ways to make people want to do things for them.
11:52I'm going to say it like that very cautiously.
11:56So I know how all of this works.
11:59Picture this.
12:00So you go to church.
12:01It's your first time there.
12:03You're in a crowd.
12:03And suddenly you feel noticed.
12:05And that feeling of feeling notice, oh, wow, they noticed me.
12:09And then they affirm you.
12:11Suddenly somebody walks up and says, you know, I'm getting a message from God.
12:16I think you might have a calling.
12:19That's the big one, man.
12:21So what they're doing is they're separating you from ordinary people in your mind.
12:26Here are the ordinary people.
12:27Oh, I must be more than ordinary.
12:29These people, they really like me here.
12:31And so suddenly they begin to attach your being there with destiny and then destiny with obedience.
12:40So what that does is if you start to question this, not only are you rebelling against God,
12:47you're starting to question your own calling.
12:50And so it's not something that even, you know, when people have this,
12:55they think that it's the calling of the leader that causes this.
12:58No, the leader is telling you that you might have a calling.
13:02Yeah, yeah.
13:03It's crazy.
13:04I have a term for that that I use a lot.
13:08It's love bombing.
13:09It's like you feel the acceptance right in the moment that you go through the door of a church,
13:17which is not bad because a community of believers should give you a really good representation of the love of
13:25God.
13:25If that's a fruit of the spirit working within you, that's perfectly acceptable.
13:31And it's actually expected for any community of believers.
13:35The problem is when that is not true because it's in exchange for something else.
13:43So that is really the problem here.
13:46Now, as you very well said, there is a difference in pastoral care versus spiritual control.
13:55And there's a few things where you would, a few situations where you would, like, differentiate or identify those.
14:06Because the main one for me is that pastoral care restores agency.
14:14It gives you certain tools to get by, to go through situations.
14:22But spiritual grooming always creates dependency.
14:27And there's many, many things that I'm very critical about it.
14:32Because if you say one thing but do the other, you can be sure that I will point at that.
14:42So, at least in the charismatic world, there's this thing where you think that you don't have to go to
14:53a priest to confess your sins.
14:55But at the end of the day, most of the time, you have a leader that knows everything you do
15:00and pretty much everything you have thought and all your struggles and all the things that you've, you know, messed
15:06up.
15:07And so, in a way, it's pretty much doing the same.
15:11And I'm okay with accountability.
15:12And we're all in for that.
15:16But you have to remember that if you create a dependency band with anyone that will enforce this idea of
15:26I have to confess everything to a person, even if the person has nothing to do with what actually happened,
15:33that is a dangerous scenario.
15:35It is, and I'm thinking through my mind of the examples where I've seen people who are spiritually groomed.
15:43I didn't know what it was.
15:44I was there.
15:45I watched it.
15:45In hindsight, I look back, and I think that was just so wrong.
15:49But that's part of this charismatic movement, part of the Pentecostal movement.
15:54There is this thing, and I'm trying to think of the actual term for it.
15:58I think maybe they call it the special access trap or something like this.
16:02But basically, it's the idea where a person is being spiritually groomed, and the groomer gives them the special privilege.
16:11And suddenly, they feel like they're special beyond the others being groomed.
16:16I don't know if you've seen this or not, but they will say things like, you're not like the others,
16:22or I see God's special hand on you.
16:24I can see God in your life.
16:26If you're the one who really gets it.
16:29I have a good example of that, that somebody told me, like, maybe a week ago.
16:36This person was telling me, hey, something weird happened.
16:39I went to these pastors' house because they invited me.
16:43The first thing they said was, you know, not everyone comes here.
16:48Like, you should feel privileged of being here.
16:54And I was like, what?
16:56Why?
16:57I mean, that's because, implicitly, what you're telling is, I am at a higher level than you.
17:04And you had access to this place because I let you come in.
17:09And so that, yeah, I totally agree.
17:12And it ties back to something else that you said.
17:15I'm fascinated with psychology.
17:16So you hit one of my buttons that I may hijack this whole podcast.
17:22Narcissistic personality disorder fascinates me.
17:25Every single cult that you look at, you're going to find at the top somebody who either had it to
17:30begin with or developed it because of being in the cult, right?
17:34Well, a narcissist actually fears the people under him more than anything in the world.
17:41And so what they do is they try to separate the people.
17:45And that way, there's this – in the separation, they can't overpower him.
17:50That's part of the mental problems that they face, right?
17:53Divide and conquer.
17:55Divide and conquer.
17:55So they'll say things like, you're not like the others.
17:59I would like to tell you this special thing, but don't share it with everyone.
18:03This is for you to understand because you have a special relationship with God.
18:08And the others, I don't think they could see it.
18:10And what you're doing is you're basically isolating that person, and they're doing the same thing with the other people.
18:16That's the really – I mean, I'm laughing.
18:18It's absurd and it's sad at the same time.
18:21But that's what they do because they're really scared about it.
18:24But to the people who are being separated, that secrecy that they have, that bond, it feels like this intimate
18:32connection with the leader.
18:33But what it's actually doing to them, it's actually isolating them so that they – their mind actually gets further
18:40spiritually groomed.
18:41Okay, so I have seen this before in many instances where the first thing that happens is that this person
18:53being groomed loses contact with their family.
18:57So there's this idea of pastoral care that protects the person versus the spiritual grooming that benefits the leader.
19:08Now, and I say this because if you want to protect your disciples, quote-unquote, one of the first thing
19:19that you have to do is go ahead and restore any kind of issues they have with their family.
19:25Because their support network, that's the close network that they have, and they will be there every time, right?
19:35Of course, there's instances where the family is, you know, very dysfunctional and, you know, things like that.
19:43But the main thing is that if we're talking about restoring a person and isolating that person of their family,
19:54that's one of the – that's exactly what you're saying.
19:57It's I'm getting the benefit as a leader because you're going to be here serving me and doing whatever I
20:03need and wherever I want.
20:04And that's not protecting the person.
20:06And even if there is somebody who tells you, hey, you should take distance from people that does not believe
20:15exactly what we believe, well, that's a dangerous thing because you're going to isolate that person from the entire society.
20:24Not everyone believes that that thing that you believe, right?
20:28And that's, again, the same thing.
20:31I mean, pastoral care should be about, you know, receiving questions and answering things.
20:40And even if it's a hard and tough question or even a personal question, but spiritual grooming does the opposite.
20:48It just punishes questioning and putting other skies of rebellion over it.
20:55Exactly.
20:56There were a lot of studies done after World War II when they saw what Germany had done to the
21:01people because it took a grooming to get to that level where you could take another human life.
21:08And they wanted to know how did this happen to a nation of people?
21:12And one of the sad truths about grooming, and this applies to what happened in Germany as well as spiritual
21:20grooming, whenever you are being groomed, and especially the ones who you're the special, you're the one who God really
21:28has a job for you, those kind of people, what happens is they create this bond with the leader.
21:34And that bond slowly starts to invade and eventually replace their conscience.
21:41Yeah.
21:42So what happens, what you're describing, the family unit, there will be cult members who their family unit will just
21:48be destroyed because they don't have a conscience to realize that this is wrong, this thing that we're doing.
21:54And that's why people on the outside, they're looking in and they ask, well, how can a cult do this?
21:59How can they destroy families?
22:01How can they shun people?
22:02Your normal person doesn't do this.
22:05Well, the truth is normal people do once they've been groomed to do so.
22:09And Germany proved this.
22:11There were people who went far beyond this.
22:14That's really the scary part because once the conscience is replaced, no matter what the leader says, the people will
22:21do it.
22:22Even to the extent if they are asking people to break the law, there are members of the congregation that
22:28will break the law for the leaders in these movements.
22:30So if you have a person who's, I'm using this term loosely, but if you have a leader who's mentally
22:37stable, very, very loosely, who's grooming people in his church, it's just kind of benign.
22:44But if you get somebody who's just a nut job, who's going to do something that's very drastic, there are
22:50people because their conscience is gone, they will do the drastic thing with him.
22:54Yeah, yeah.
22:56And again, I mean, there's this human component of trust, and it has to do with a natural human conduct
23:08of leadership.
23:09If you have a leader in front of you, a person who's really, you know, have this attitude of leadership
23:18within, you're going to delegate some trust in that person.
23:23And it's a natural thing.
23:25I mean, you can see that pretty much everywhere.
23:29It's not necessarily related to any religious organization.
23:33It's just a human conduct.
23:36Now, the problem with high control or grooming organizations is that they normalized this kind of vulnerability as a door
23:48for discipleship.
23:49And let me give you an example.
23:52And there's this denomination specifically.
23:55And I can say that very open because that came directly from, from one of their videos is that Jehovah's
24:07Witnesses, I saw something that was really disturbing, but it was their culture, how they acted, and it was an
24:19advice given to them.
24:21So, the advice was really simple is never stop knocking on somebody else's door.
24:28Just keep going.
24:29And if you ask why, it is because somebody, at some point, that person will, will be going through something
24:41difficult.
24:41Maybe somebody passed away.
24:44Maybe they lose their job.
24:47Maybe something happened.
24:50deveild.
24:50And at some point, they will open up with you.
24:53And you will have an open door to share the will of God for them.
24:59so that's an issue because you're taking somebody's vulnerability to again benefit yourself
25:09or your group and that's a a very normal thing they do it and they were very opened about that
25:17but that's exactly what happens with pretty much every other denomination or religious organization
25:24they will wait for the right moment of vulnerability so they can do exactly what they have planned
25:33so yes uh it's it's sad that a culture normalized this but it's the reality and it's a a really
25:47good
25:47example of grooming you're a musician so you'll understand this some people don't
25:53um people who are in marketing might understand and grasp the concept but when people are in church
26:00some of them do engage critical thinking and so whenever they are eventually spiritually groomed
26:07they wonder how did this happen to me i was actually critically examining this uh pastor and everything
26:12that he said it doesn't just come through the pastor's speech sometimes you can even put into
26:18the lyrics of the songs things that will manipulate people and i whenever i left the movement that we
26:25came out of i started looking back just simply through the music what were the lyrics how did that impact
26:30me and i was just abhorred that they were doing this to my mind i was chanting phrases long after
26:38leaving
26:38that were in these songs that i loved that were just so wrong and some of them sound really spiritual
26:44one of the ones that's most common i think among most of the churches that i've even some of the
26:50churches after i've left there's this idea to you need to die to your old self that's one of the
26:56spiritual things that they'll do and it is actually a grooming tool because what they're telling you is
27:01that your inner makeup your being the the creature that god created you can't trust it you need to let
27:09that
27:09one die and we're going to we're going to transplant what we think you should be inside of your head
27:15that's that's exactly what it's saying and at the same time they use other things which you and i and
27:20i think everybody's talked about let's say touch not god's anointed so you can't question the leader
27:26that's telling you that the person that's inside of you needs to die and the leader who may or may
27:32not
27:33be manipulating you is going to help you replace this person that you should be with the person who you
27:39naturally are if you read dr stephen hasson's combating cult mind control what this is
27:44essentially doing your authentic self is being replaced by the cult identity and you're suppressing
27:51your authentic self and suddenly you everybody starts to look act think in the same way we
27:59it's kind of funny and sad at the same time i was traveling with some people who um were in
28:05we
28:05were in the branamite group well there's another uh destructive cult that's here in the area that
28:11was a branch off of it but they're two distinct separate groups and the women could tell by the
28:18lacing the different tool those different styles of the pentecostal dress they could actually see which
28:23ones were which and me as a man i'm looking at this thing how how do you know they're just
28:28dresses how do
28:28know this and they say oh you can tell the colors they choose the lacing the styles that's the one
28:35group that's just the other group and it's because of this the old person that they were has died and
28:41they start to conform and adapt to become part of the group their their old self is has died and
28:48they're
28:48replaced with the group identity have you ever wondered how the pentecostal movement started
28:53or how the progression of modern pentecostalism transitioned through the latter reign charismatic
28:59and other fringe movements into the new apostolic reformation you can learn this and more on william
29:06branham historical research's website william-branham.org on the books page of the website you can find
29:13the compiled research of john collins charles paisley stephen montgomery john mckinnon and others with links to
29:21the paper audio and digital versions of each book you can also find resources and documentation
29:27on various people and topics related to those movements if you want to contribute to the cause
29:33you can support the podcast by clicking the contribute button at the top and as always be sure to like
29:40and
29:40subscribe to the audio or video version that you're listening to or watching on behalf of william
29:45branham historical research we want to thank you for your support one of the most interesting and
29:52profound changes that happened with uh fairly new denominations is for example i'll talk about myself here
30:04my first reaction was okay now that i'm aware that god wants to have a relationship with me
30:14and my you know key moment where where everyone you know comes to god and and and this very profound
30:23moment that every believer uh experience experiences now what happened to me was okay now that i know god
30:32exists and he's real and he wants a relationship with me the the best thing that i should do is
30:38study the
30:38bible in a really deep way not just reading it but just studying the word of god because that's the
30:46will
30:46of god for me right so what i did was asked in my local church hey uh what's what's the
30:53process here well
30:54you go to academia which is like i don't know how to translate that it's like uh servants academy or
31:02something like that but anyway so we go through that uh just a series of like three months or four
31:09months
31:10of uh uh uh just teachings and on video and stuff and then you get an exam and boom you're
31:19ready to you
31:20know go and serve god uh then again i was thinking well this is not enough so i'm gonna get
31:27deeper into
31:28this and then i went to uh like a bible institute that was part of uh of the church not
31:36necessarily
31:37part of the church but they have like this arrangement weird thing that they were doing together
31:43so pretty much they were working together to provide biblical teachings for everyone right so uh i ended
31:51up with a theology diploma right nothing wrong with that i was i thought i was doing the right thing
32:00the
32:01problem is that once you understand what you were being uh you know given their doctrine was pretty much
32:09their own so at the end of the day if you ask for help to study the bible to study
32:17any kind of
32:18of biblical material they will give you what they believe and that's a problem because you said it
32:26right you know you're trying to find uh you know this way of improving your knowledge of god the problem
32:35is that they will feed it to you and it's exactly what they believe and you don't know it you
32:41know
32:41it years after you've been through many many situations where you're starting questioning them
32:48one of the things that really gave me freedom after i left i started exploring and reading and watching
32:56things that we weren't allowed to watch that would be strongly frowned upon for example i started watching
33:02these debates you can watch a debate between a christian and an agnostic or a christian or an
33:07atheist and i was surprised whenever i started learning things from the other side and i asked
33:15myself why is this i'm learning things that i didn't know and i go look it up and yes some
33:20of the things
33:20i disagree with but there were other things that i had to take a step back and say that's information
33:25that i would have liked to have i don't know what i'm going to do with it but i would
33:29have liked to have
33:30had it so that i can make my own decision yeah part of the problem with spiritual grooming or any
33:36grooming
33:37is that you're not fully in control of your own decisions and so as a result there is a huge
33:44problem
33:45that exists from people who are trying to critically think about everything that we're talking about
33:50in this podcast they'll go and explain to their elders or their pastor that i i have some questions
33:58about the way that i'm being being treated in this church can you ask some questions and
34:04usually what they come back with is well you have to understand that's the that's the outside world
34:09and they are against discipling for christ we're just discipling you that's all we're doing yeah
34:15that sounds biblical it sounds reasonable but the problem is whenever you filter the information
34:24you are giving them what you want them to see and you're molding and shaping what they what they
34:31believe so that you can basically as they're taking off the old man and putting on the new you're going
34:38to
34:38shape and mold what that new man is again essentially whereas true discipling invites questions you want
34:47people to question i want to show them the faults so that they can compare the faults and the true
34:52and decide oh
34:53i see this is true and now i know why it respects individuality um you find many of these groups
35:00they
35:00really don't like an individual person because that's going to be the guy that goes rogue and makes
35:05everybody go with them so they want everybody to conform to the group and this is an odd one
35:12whenever i left the group i started thinking back through all of my friends and comparing them to
35:18some of the friends that i had in the new churches that we went to the um the the odd
35:25part of this is
35:26the friends that i had who were in the cult seemed really mature and the people who weren't were happy
35:33free boisterous you know happy-go-lucky they did not seem as mature when you're in this type of mentality
35:41they want you to mature levels beyond what other people are because they're controlling your inner
35:47self the the inner child in me was totally suppressed for 37 years then once i left the inner child
35:55just
35:55suddenly went free and oh my gosh look at all of the look at all of the world i i
36:00can it was almost as
36:02though i i had the body of a 37 year old with the mind of a 14 year old and
36:07i had to try to contain this
36:09so what they're doing essentially through what they're calling discipling is they're actually
36:15wanting to mold you in the way that they want to mold you and the things that are inside of
36:20you that
36:20that really want to develop god gave you them to develop they want to suppress those because you
36:26might not develop in the way that they want you to i have uh something i wanted to share with
36:32you
36:32it's an example that i was discussing with a friend a few days ago uh let's suppose that we're part
36:40of a
36:40community and uh let's suppose that i'm the leader here and and you are a newcomer that is just coming
36:50starting to come to the to meetings or services or whatever and um all of a sudden i see you
36:58and i tell you hey john uh i think i i have this feeling that you might need some maybe
37:08you're going
37:09through a lot of things that you know are overwhelming you uh you're new to christ and uh there's so
37:18much
37:18things that you should be able to uh have access to and so much information that could be a little
37:25bit overwhelming to you let's let's uh let's talk let's discuss if you're having any problems or any uh
37:32any issues with with anything and i want to help you
37:36so immediately what's going to happen is that if you're in position of vulnerability or in fact you
37:42have so much information that you are not able to process that you're going to start telling me things
37:48and maybe your struggles maybe the things that are being hard for you at the moment so you're you're
37:55going to be starting to share with me information that i can use in my advantage and yeah just
38:02information that i can use to make you do things uh and it it can be disguised as hey
38:10tell me so i can pray about this and and discuss this with you now that i have a little
38:16bit more
38:16background and a little bit more experience with this now i'm asking for the information
38:23what if on the other hand we're part of a community i see that you are a person that maybe
38:31went through something that i'm going through right now and i approach you and tell you hey john
38:39i'm going through this and that i think you might be able to help me with this situation i'm facing
38:46because hey i'm struggling with this so the information is coming from me as a voluntary act
38:54i'm giving you some kind of trust but i'm in control of the situation so it's a different scenario
39:00that's one of the most common grooming scenarios that there is somebody's asking you for information
39:07and i was a youth leader for maybe 10 years 12 years just imagine how much information i have about
39:16a lot of
39:17people and of course i'm not going to use it and thanks god it's been so long that i've forgot
39:23a lot
39:23of things so i don't have that information anymore but again uh i find you know i'm maybe going to
39:35do my
39:36errands and i find somebody and say hey how's everything going and i immediately remember all the things that
39:42we've talked and that's something that shouldn't happen uh and there's a it is a very dangerous
39:48scenario for for groomer and a person to be groomed yeah one of the things that i remember is there
39:57were
39:57people who would get up and give up and give their testimonies and the testimonies to a person who's
40:02spiritually grooming it's like a gold mine man everything that they share their innermost secrets of
40:08their heart they're pouring their souls out to god and the church and you've got a person who's
40:13sitting there thinking okay i can preach a sermon on that and that person will be manipulated i can
40:18go to their weakest point because they're opening their heart to me and that's that's really the sad
40:24thing they will mine these testimonies and try to find what is the weak spot within that person while
40:31everybody else in the crowd in the congregations listening to it thinking how can i help that person
40:36because their heart is bleeding you've got a person who's grooming them thinking okay that's the
40:41button that i need to push and i'm going to keep it in my back pocket because one day i'm
40:45going to need
40:46to push that button i have watched it happen i've actually had a sermon preached at me so i i
40:51know
40:52exactly how this happened right me too and i remember that uh it was i was the only person teaching
41:02about
41:02something very specific and uh the pastor general pastor was not agreeing with me on that specific
41:10thing so i got this like this this sermon treatment i for one entire sunday the sermon was against
41:20what i was teaching so that's a very common as scenario so that leads me to how this grooming looks
41:28in
41:28costa rica because i'm pretty sure there's going to be people from costa rica uh or people that have
41:34friends in costa rica that have seen this before and and you tell me because i think it's a universal
41:40thing at this point it's like everyone's facing the same issues at this point uh one of the problems
41:47that i see here is that church family community identity social networking everything has to be done within
41:56the church because they are my brothers like there's like this brethren community like we are in the
42:03same way uh thinking in the same mentality and everything so that makes it really really hard
42:12to get out of those groups because everything you do has to do with the church so your friends are
42:19there
42:20your your your leaders are there the social networking uh that you have for you know job or or professional
42:28life everything's contained in this little bubble uh so immediately if you want to leave you you feel like
42:38you got to be prepared for leaving everything you know maybe your friends are not going to be your friends
42:45anymore uh and this safety net that you have as a part of a community is going to be gone
42:54uh you're
42:55going to lose that now there's many many many things that are really toxic about that environment uh because
43:03it it forces you to stay even if you know that there are really bad things going on because you
43:11fear you're
43:12going to lose everything you have and in some way it is like that that exists here too and to
43:18be really clear
43:19it's actually it is a religious issue it is a grooming issue but it is also just simply a sociological
43:26issue
43:26whenever you have people they want to connect with people once those people connect they really don't want
43:32to disconnect i i've been on small teams at work and whenever the job was done when the task was
43:39done and you had
43:40to separate to a new team everybody said nobody wants to do this working together well the human
43:47mind works like this take it a step further there are small rural rural communities where that's all
43:54you have there is nobody that you can really go outside of i have been to i've been i've lived
44:00in towns
44:00that only had one church so you can find you can find this kind of thing that does exist just
44:06simply
44:07because of the way that humanity has developed but now take it a step further because what you're
44:14describing is a step worse than this there are people who are a level of spiritual groomed to the
44:23point where we talked about the conscience severs well they start to look at the outsiders as though
44:29they're different once you reach that point once the outsiders become different they start using
44:34language to each other that i still look at it and i think it's weird that we called everybody brother
44:40you're my brother and some of these people that were my brother i really didn't want them to be
44:45my brother some of them weren't that good people but that's the word that we had to use and it
44:51was
44:51it was saying in in an outright way this is people who are among us those who aren't my brothers
44:58are the
44:59people who aren't of us and that included other christians that's really the sad part once you
45:05reach that mentality you have created an invisible boundary around your group where you may not have
45:12physical walls to keep you in but that wall that you put in your head that's going to keep you
45:17contained
45:17in that group yeah and uh that's part also of the cover-up culture that there's here in costa rica
45:24because there's this idea that if something goes wrong and in somebody does something really awful
45:30we should keep this to ourselves because it's going to damage the testimony of the church
45:37and it's going to be a really good you know issue here because now everyone will judge us because of
45:45the
45:45issue of one person of course if you don't fix it you shouldn't be accountable uh for the people
45:53within your organization uh otherwise it would be crazy i mean everyone can do whatever they want
45:59but uh there's that's also a big big issue in costa rica because they're trying to you know preserve
46:07the uh reputation if that's uh a word for for it uh but at the end what they are effectively
46:16doing is
46:18developing a cover-up culture where nobody knows what's what's going on inside and of course the
46:25financial thing let me uh let me ask you if this is happening also in the states it's like the
46:34uh
46:35infamous faith promises let me bravely describe to you what this is because i i have uh something that i
46:43want to share with everyone before uh our time is up so the faith promises works like this
46:53you're given a paper or an envelope you write how much you're believing god will give you for the next
47:03month and out of that you will tithe 10 percent so nothing has happened you don't have the money
47:12but you're committing yourself to give this amount of money because you know and you trust that god will
47:18god will give you that amount and trust me by the end of the month you will have somebody calling
47:27to
47:27your phone saying hey how did the promise go and um i have a an old friend that used to
47:37work in a radio
47:38station or christian radio station and uh the word for for that was the columns ministry columnas basically
47:48so they were doing the same thing you just call us tell us how much money are you believing uh
47:55in god
47:56and for this next month and you'll tithe uh the 10 of that so that's crazy
48:05and whether you believe in tithing or not that's up to you uh but if you're telling me
48:13that you're saying hey god i need you to give me this amount of money to spend on myself and
48:19out of
48:19that i will take 10 and i'll give to church what ends up happening is that there's a lot of
48:27people
48:27that will go to church and give the money without receiving any i knew people who did that they gave
48:35so much to the church that they could not give food for their kids and what happened is other people
48:40had to support the food for their kids that's really the sad part of this what you're describing
48:46is a variant on the prosperity gospel seed faith no that's also happening here in costa rica by the
48:52way it's oh yeah well there are so many different variations because what they've learned is if they
48:57outright copy what others are doing people will start to question but let's come up with a new way to
49:03give the seed faith you want to give people to get into the mentality where they're giving more money
49:09than they have thinking that god's going to replace it and hoping that something does happen so that
49:15god does replace the money so that they can give it back to you that's the that's the sad circle
49:20here
49:20at the end of the day is financial grooming that's what it is uh you you can say but you
49:27can use any
49:28fancy name that you want it's just manipulating the people that are under your authority to give you money
49:36so you can spend it on whatever it is that you want and there's no accountability on how the money
49:44is
49:45used now that leads me to the last thing that i would like to share with you and i prepared
49:54a few
49:54questions just share questions just to determine in general if you're being groomed because i i think
50:00this is a helpful resources a resource for for anyone really not for them not only for themselves but
50:08just to ask those questions thinking about another person that you maybe you're a little suspicious
50:14that is being groomed so first question is am i free to ask sincere honest questions on my
50:23community of believers can i go to my pastor and say hey uh who's paying for this how how did
50:31you
50:31come up with i don't know how much money to for a new pa system or or how is this
50:38how are you building
50:39this part of the church or whatever it is okay second question do i feel closer to god or more
50:48dependent
50:49on a leader it's a really good question are my personal boundaries respected in terms of time
50:58for example how much time i am i i am spending on the church versus how much time i am
51:06spending with my
51:07family uh for example can i say no without punishment or feeling that i should have say yes
51:15that's a very common thing you have to really pay attention for that is there financial transparency
51:23on the church or if i ask am i you know labeled as rebellious or i shouldn't have access to
51:34that
51:34information because we know better and we know what we're doing are people allowed to leave peacefully
51:43or have you detected if anyone who leaves for whatever reason it is is labeled as rebellious that's a
51:51very common scenario too are private conversations used to control or shame people even from the pulpit
52:01without saying any names just preaching some something that is so specific that you know it is for you
52:09has the group weakened my family or outside support it is really important to know if you have a close
52:19network of people that is willing to help you if church is taking that out of your life pay attention
52:27to
52:27it and last question do i believe i can relate directly to god without this leader or organization
52:37because truth here is that the only thing that you need is god and his word and that's it those
52:45are
52:45good and there are just some inward things that i think every person who's being spiritually groomed they
52:50feel they may not know how to put it into words but the biggest one for me is can you
52:56feel special or
52:57chosen and trapped at the same time it's those those two things cannot be but yet they are in some
53:03of
53:03these ministries and i think you alluded to this a little bit but i just i was so shocked whenever
53:10i left
53:10and i began to realize they knew everything about me but i i know very little about them
53:15yeah yeah that's totally that's the big surprise they control the information which goes back to dr
53:21stephen hasson's bite model the behavioral control information control thought manipulation emotion
53:27control but um and we've talked about it a little bit but i never really thought about it until after
53:34i
53:35left the people who are outside your outside relationships outside of the group those are seen as spiritual
53:42threats yeah because everything's in this world of angels and demons spiritual warfare
53:47whenever you see those things happening to you you're being spiritually groomed and the sad
53:52truth of it is you're giving away your own identity and replacing it with what they want you to
53:58have as your identity i totally agree with you and i hope this is a subject because i think we're
54:06going
54:06to be continue talking about things related to this but it is really important for everyone to know
54:14what it is and how you can detect it because that is giving the spiritually groomed people you know the
54:24victims a chance to get out of that situation that is a really really bad thing and it's more sadly
54:32more
54:32common than what we think it is thank you so much for doing this i i was a little curious
54:38if you would
54:39have many of the same things happening in costa rica and the truth of the matter is i've been studying
54:45these cults and how they've developed over time and it's like somebody took a cookie cutter stamp and went
54:50stamp this cult this next one and they're just growing and evolving but it's the same structure the
54:57same makeup and identity but anyway thank you so much for doing this you're welcome john and i hope
55:02this helps everyone who watched it and thank you absolutely well if you've enjoyed our show and you
55:08want more information you can check us out on the web you can find us at william-brandom.org
55:12for more about the dark side of the new apostolic reformation you can read weaponized religion
55:17from christian identity to the nar available on amazon kindle and audible
55:35so
55:43so
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