- 22 hours ago
John and Garrett examine why apologetics matters for people emerging from Pentecostal, charismatic, and cult-like religious environments. They explore how fear-based teaching, extra-biblical traditions, and authoritarian leadership can distort salvation, spiritual experience, prophecy, and the role of questioning in the Christian life.
They also discuss speaking in tongues, healing claims, deliverance ministries, and the difference between biblical discipleship and emotional dependency. Along the way, they argue that healthy faith is not threatened by context, history, or careful study, and that honest questions can help rebuild trust in Scripture after spiritual abuse.
00:00 Introduction
00:31 John introduces Garrett and the topic of seminary/apologetics
02:09 Garrett explains his background and why he entered apologetics
03:17 John describes learning from seminary students after leaving the cult
05:40 Garrett discusses folk theology and personally engaging with faith
06:49 John and Garrett discuss biblical context, genre, and nuance
13:06 Garrett explains how apologetics applies to real conversations
14:15 Helping people leaving Pentecostal and charismatic cult environments
16:25 Distorted salvation, healing theology, and chronic illness
18:16 Garrett explains miracles, healing, Lazarus, and Paul’s affliction
19:30 Emotional religion, worship experiences, and chasing spiritual highs
23:46 Prophets, authority, and testing claims of divine leadership
25:41 “God told me” language and claims of hearing God’s voice
28:47 Speaking in tongues and whether it is biblical or extra-biblical
36:08 Garrett explains how he would help someone evaluate tongues biblically
38:48 Deliverance ministry, fear, and stage-act spirituality
41:18 Garrett responds to deliverance ministry and fear of demons
43:18 Shepherding, discipleship by fear, and testing controlling groups
46:37 False leadership, fear systems, and how to identify harmful leaders
51:42 Closing thoughts on thinking, apologetics, and spiritual recovery
______________________
Weaponized Religion: From Christian Identity to the NAR:
Paperback: https://www.amazon.com/dp/1735160962
Kindle: https://www.amazon.com/dp/B0DCGGZX3K
______________________
– Support the channel: https://www.patreon.com/branham
– Subscribe to the channel: https://www.youtube.com/channel/UCBSpezVG15TVG-lOYMRXuyQ
– Visit the website: https://william-branham.org
– Follow on Facebook: https://www.facebook.com/WilliamBranhamOrg
– Follow on TikTok: https://www.tiktok.com/@william.m.branham
– Follow on Twitter: https://twitter.com/wmbhr
– Buy the books: https://william-branham.org/site/books
They also discuss speaking in tongues, healing claims, deliverance ministries, and the difference between biblical discipleship and emotional dependency. Along the way, they argue that healthy faith is not threatened by context, history, or careful study, and that honest questions can help rebuild trust in Scripture after spiritual abuse.
00:00 Introduction
00:31 John introduces Garrett and the topic of seminary/apologetics
02:09 Garrett explains his background and why he entered apologetics
03:17 John describes learning from seminary students after leaving the cult
05:40 Garrett discusses folk theology and personally engaging with faith
06:49 John and Garrett discuss biblical context, genre, and nuance
13:06 Garrett explains how apologetics applies to real conversations
14:15 Helping people leaving Pentecostal and charismatic cult environments
16:25 Distorted salvation, healing theology, and chronic illness
18:16 Garrett explains miracles, healing, Lazarus, and Paul’s affliction
19:30 Emotional religion, worship experiences, and chasing spiritual highs
23:46 Prophets, authority, and testing claims of divine leadership
25:41 “God told me” language and claims of hearing God’s voice
28:47 Speaking in tongues and whether it is biblical or extra-biblical
36:08 Garrett explains how he would help someone evaluate tongues biblically
38:48 Deliverance ministry, fear, and stage-act spirituality
41:18 Garrett responds to deliverance ministry and fear of demons
43:18 Shepherding, discipleship by fear, and testing controlling groups
46:37 False leadership, fear systems, and how to identify harmful leaders
51:42 Closing thoughts on thinking, apologetics, and spiritual recovery
______________________
Weaponized Religion: From Christian Identity to the NAR:
Paperback: https://www.amazon.com/dp/1735160962
Kindle: https://www.amazon.com/dp/B0DCGGZX3K
______________________
– Support the channel: https://www.patreon.com/branham
– Subscribe to the channel: https://www.youtube.com/channel/UCBSpezVG15TVG-lOYMRXuyQ
– Visit the website: https://william-branham.org
– Follow on Facebook: https://www.facebook.com/WilliamBranhamOrg
– Follow on TikTok: https://www.tiktok.com/@william.m.branham
– Follow on Twitter: https://twitter.com/wmbhr
– Buy the books: https://william-branham.org/site/books
Category
📚
LearningTranscript
00:31Hello, and welcome to another episode of the William Branham Historical Research Podcast.
00:36I'm your host, John Collins, the author and founder of William Branham Historical Research
00:40at william-branham.org, and with me I have my very special guest, Garrett Fobby, Seminary
00:46Student in Apologetics.
00:48Garrett, it's good to have you on and to talk through seminary and apologetics and everything
00:54that we were trained to condemn in the Branham religion.
00:57And I'll never forget, I've mentioned this a few times on the podcast, I'll never forget
01:02whenever I first left the cult and I started talking to, learning from, sitting close to
01:10so I could pick up details from both seminary students and ministers who weren't cult ministers.
01:17I'll never forget that experience because it made me want to dive into apologetics, and
01:23I did for about three years in apologetics forums, tried to help people who were working with
01:29their faith crumbling, and it was a big learning experience.
01:34But after the three years, the biggest question hit me, why on earth is not every minister in
01:41the world doing this?
01:43Why would you not do this?
01:44Why would you not want to help people who are struggling with their faith?
01:47And I have my opinions as to why that is, which I'll get into in the podcast, but you
01:52and I got to talking through email, and I just, I thought it was a good opportunity for
01:57me to share all of my experiences and vent all my frustrations and let you explain your
02:03experiences and how it matches.
02:05So maybe if you could start by just introducing yourself.
02:08Thank you for having me this morning.
02:11Garrett, you know, as you mentioned, my name is Garrett Fahby.
02:14I'm currently working on my seminary work, graduate seminary work at Luther Rice Seminary
02:21in Apologetics.
02:23Got my bachelor's degree in Christian studies from Shorter University up in Rome, Georgia.
02:33But part of the reason that I got into it was to answer some of my own questions.
02:38You know, you kind of like you said, you run into people that just don't really seem to
02:42have a lot of answers for some reason, or they dance around questions or seem scared of
02:47questions.
02:47And, you know, it just wasn't very satisfying to me.
02:50So I, for my own edification, I went into it, and then just as I've gone along, I've had
02:56the opportunity to talk to some people about their faith and stuff like that.
02:59It's been real good and interesting to kind of be plugged into that community and just expand
03:04and know more and have a reasonable faith, I suppose, and not one that's just, well, I
03:10mean, it's faith, but, you know, it does need to be unreasonable or unrational.
03:14There are very good reasons to have the faith that you hold, I believe.
03:17Absolutely.
03:19I went into it not because I really had the intent of becoming an apologist, but more because
03:26I learned by doing.
03:27And I knew that if people ask me questions, I'm going to dig for answers, I'm going to
03:32try to understand.
03:33And like I said, it was a pretty good learning experience.
03:36I'm really glad that I did it.
03:38I don't know that I'm suited to do it long term.
03:41I don't consider myself a theologian or a minister or somebody who's qualified to do it.
03:47But I did try to help.
03:49And I think parts of this I've mentioned on various podcasts, so I'm going to be repeating
03:54some things.
03:55But my family got involved with the homeschool community locally.
04:00And fortunately, and in some ways, unfortunately, I got I had the perfect setup because we lost
04:11the building that we were holding the homeschool meetings in.
04:15And the Southern Baptist Seminary allowed us to use one of their rooms.
04:21And so I would take my son to, you know, join into the homeschool stuff in the morning.
04:27Well, I work from I ran my own business and I work mostly out of my laptop and my bag.
04:32So I would just camp out in the lunchroom in the break room so I could overhear all of
04:39the conversations from all of the students as they were learning, which was a tremendous
04:43experience.
04:44You're literally watching people as they're learning and growing in the ministry and all
04:51of the questions that they face in seminary, some of which the common people like me had
04:56never even knew was a question.
04:58So I'm starting to unravel that.
05:01And all of all of these thoughts are going through my head.
05:04Number one, why in the cult that we were in, the destructive cult, why was it so far off
05:10the mark because the Bible is very clear in certain passages what you are to believe and
05:16the things that we were taught were extra biblical.
05:20They were things that really weren't written in the text.
05:22So for me, needless to say, I sat there and I had a crash course on maybe not the full
05:29experience of seminary, but at least some of the basics.
05:32And it really got me interested to learn more.
05:35And that's why I got into working with the apologetics forums.
05:39Well, you know, and that was one thing that was interesting to me, you know, I was not
05:45in a cult group by any stretch of the imagination.
05:47I've always been in a, you know, Orthodox, basically somewhat Christian or an Orthodox Christian
05:54group.
05:55You know, I've been, you know, I joke around with people.
05:57I've been a low down Baptist my whole life.
06:01Um, but you know, you know, you go to school and you realize a lot of, uh, you know, not
06:07a lot, but there are always elements of, um, what I've heard deemed a folk theology where
06:11it's just people, well, my mama did it that way.
06:14My granddaddy did it that way.
06:15My great granddaddy did that way.
06:16And they never stopped to, um, engage in the faith on their own.
06:21They just have always, um, uh, as I've heard, put ridden on somebody else's coattails to
06:26get into heaven, you know, and, you know, you know, trust is a beautiful thing, you know,
06:31but I believe, you know, especially with apologetics that we should engage with our faith personally.
06:37I mean, it's all well and good, you know, if your parents believe in your grandparents,
06:40but I want you or some individual for it to be real and to be rational and understandable
06:46to yourself.
06:47The other thing that was, I would say this is probably a hindrance.
06:51We were trained a very black and white world in the cold mindset.
06:56There's either right or there was wrong.
06:57There was no in between.
06:59And when I came out of this group and I started to actually read the Bible for myself, I began
07:05to understand that there not only is the black and white, but there's every shade of gray
07:09in between, some of which, and this, you know, this is where you and I, I'm not certain where
07:16you lie with regards to theology in the Bible, but there are more fundamentalist views of some
07:23of the texts and there are, I guess I would use the word liberal, but not really liberal.
07:28There are different ways of reading the same passage.
07:31And so it added to the complexities of learning because some people, when they read the Bible,
07:38for example, in some of the Pentecostal groups, they'll read the Bible very literally and
07:43not, I think, not understanding that there are different genres in the text, there are
07:48different categories of books.
07:51There are some, some of the books in the Bible are actually like a constitution for the Jews.
07:57And we would compare it to our constitution today, but everything is read with the same
08:03intent, often skipping and ignoring the metaphors and the ancient linguistic techniques of making
08:12somebody to understand something.
08:14So there's all of these shades of gray of what you are to believe and what you're allowed
08:19to believe.
08:19But the biggest thing for me, the hindrance was, I really wasn't allowed to think about
08:25that because if you try to think outside of the box that we were trained, it was instant
08:30and sudden damnation.
08:31I do see that a lot, even around here, you know, I live in the central Georgia area and
08:37there are some very strong fundamentalist Pentecostal groups around where I live.
08:43And, you know, and you're right, you know, the Bible is very nuanced and beautiful in that
08:48way.
08:48God, you know, inspired men to write it in all sorts of genres.
08:52So, you know, while it is God inspired, it is written by man.
08:56You know, I kind of look at it in the same way Christ is fully God and fully man.
08:59So is the Bible fully God and fully man.
09:02It is not only, you know, I tell people, it's like the Bible is not written to you, you
09:07know, it is written for us, but not to us.
09:10It is not written to me sitting here in 2026.
09:12There's a lot of things that have changed.
09:16And so, you know, you talk about different genres and stuff.
09:19You know, Christ uses hyperbole a lot, you know, in the Gospels.
09:23He talks about you need to hate your parents, you know, if you're going to follow him.
09:27He's like, no, you don't.
09:28You know, it is.
09:30He's not literally saying you need to hate your parents because that would go against.
09:34He's using hyperbole to drive the message home.
09:37And, you know, understanding it in context is very important.
09:43And I don't think that's a liberal or conservative view.
09:46I think that's just the nature of the book itself.
09:49You know, it is written in the first century A.D.
09:52You have to understand that.
09:56And so, as I'm venting all the frustrations that I did have in the past, the biggest one
10:02really was watching some of the other apologists.
10:06You had, in my opinion, you had different categories of apologists who were much in the
10:11same way of the different categories of the schools of thought on what the Bible is.
10:16And so, I would encounter apologists who were working with people who were very hardcore.
10:23I wouldn't use the word fundamental because they weren't fundamentalists, but they interpreted
10:28the Bible in such a way that you could not really think outside of their box.
10:32And so, some of the translations, like I'm talking about, some of the metaphors that are
10:36used, for example, they would view the metaphor as a very literal phrase, meaning something
10:43that in today's world we would say that this is something that we could say as a historical
10:49accurate fact, but instead it might be like, oh, for this conversation, you and I are hitting
10:56it out of the ballpark.
10:57We're doing such a good job.
10:59For us, that's a phrase that's a metaphor.
11:02We're not literally hitting something out of a ballpark.
11:05So, to the ancient world, they had the same type of phraseology, just different meanings.
11:10And I came across one guy who really helped me with this because he started talking about
11:17some of the metaphors that were used by the ancient Greeks and even, to some extent, by
11:23the ancient Hebrews, although we don't really know a lot about this.
11:27But it opened up this world for me because now I can read the text and not be constrained
11:33to this boxed way of thinking and begin to understand what they were actually trying to
11:39say when they were writing.
11:41I agree 100%.
11:42And, you know, when you talk about, when I hear, you know, I've met those theologians
11:47where, you know, they're just absolutely sure that something is 100% clear.
11:52And sometimes it is like, you know, like, thou shalt not murder.
11:55That's pretty straightforward.
11:56We understand that the Bible reiterates the horrors of that.
12:00We should not murder people.
12:01But then there are other things that are much more nuanced, like you said, and just, I kind
12:07of look at it as, you know, like navigational buoys on a river, sort of.
12:11You know, you kind of have an acceptable range of interpretation.
12:15There's a little bit of wiggle room in there.
12:16But, you know, there's very clearly outliers that you don't want to get off into because
12:20that clearly takes it way beyond what it could have ever meant.
12:24But, you know, like you said, there's just some stuff we just don't know in some translations.
12:28You know, we do the best we can, but we don't have the equivalencies in English or modern
12:33language like they may have had back then.
12:35So there is some stuff that has a little, you know, I hate to use the word flex, but,
12:39you know, there's, and that's part of the excitement about studying the Bible because
12:43you get to dig down into those mysteries.
12:45But, you know, there is some stuff, especially in the Old Testament, where there is so much
12:48time.
12:49And so, you know, you have like the Greek translations, Hebrews, and the different
12:54languages of the Old Testament, you know, it gets, it becomes a little bit trickier.
13:00Like there's some stuff that is fundamental, but some of those secondary issues get a little
13:04hairy, I guess.
13:06So from your perspective, being in seminary to learn how to do apologetics, I'm curious
13:13how much you get to actually use it.
13:15Do you really get to go out and talk to people and try to persuade people who are struggling
13:21with their faith?
13:22Yeah, actually I do.
13:23And it's been interesting, you know, and it's a pretty good mix of people who are either,
13:29you know, non-religious or, you know, or people who just, you know, have questions about their
13:37own faith, you know, just talking to them.
13:39And, you know, like I said, that's been a pretty big blessing.
13:44And that's kind of the thing about, I like about the apologetics program because it is
13:47so immediately applicable.
13:49A lot of times what you learn either for yourself or for somebody else.
13:54And, you know, it just in today's day and age where people are looking for answers to
13:57things and what's going on in the world, some of the basic stuff, especially just evidences
14:03for God, not necessarily Christianity, but just for God, you know, are especially useful.
14:08Darrell Bock I was hoping that you did because that frames
14:10our conversation in a way that I was actually hoping we would go.
14:15I work with a lot of people, as you probably can tell, who are either escaping or considering
14:21to escape various Pentecostal or Charismatic cult environments or cult-like environments.
14:27And one of the things that they ask is, how can I trust what I have been told about the
14:35Bible?
14:36And it's a really, it's a deep question.
14:38It's not something that you can answer through email or even a simple phone conversation.
14:43But there are people who really struggle because they have been just so badly or poorly taught.
14:50What would you say are the biggest, the best examples of beliefs that people mistake, mistakenly
14:59think came from Scripture, but have actually come from outside of Scripture?
15:04I suppose, you know, one thing that people struggle with a lot is, you know, sort of the
15:10whole, also let me back and rephrase that.
15:13One thing I see a lot is, you know, people who look at Christianity and they look at salvation
15:19sort of as a, you know, and God sort of as a vending machine almost, where if you just
15:27say, oh, I'm sorry, everything is good, it's, you know, and it's much deeper than that because
15:33a lot of people, they're like, well, you know, if before, you know, the example I've
15:37heard people throw at me is like, well, if Hitler claimed that he believed Jesus before
15:40he died, then he's saved.
15:42And it's like, well, you know, Bible does say believe in the Lord Jesus Christ, he'll be
15:46saved.
15:46But the Bible also talks about God drawing people to him.
15:50Salvation is much more than that, like, you know, and especially when people grapple with
15:54the evils of the world where people are like, well, God just gives evil a pass as long as
15:58people believe in him.
15:59It's like, it's not really that you get a pass, you know, and that's one that people struggle
16:04with a lot is evil, I believe, you know, and that's a tough one, you know, even as a
16:10Christian, you know, I've experienced evil and I'm sure, you know, you have, you know,
16:13especially within a cult or something like that, you've experienced bad things.
16:16But it's not that God gives it a pass.
16:19There's a lot more to it, a lot more to salvation than just, oh, I'm sorry, God, let me in
16:24the
16:24gate.
16:25Absolutely.
16:25That's one of the things, I try to bring this out as much as I can in the podcast without
16:32offending people because if you offend people, they won't even listen to you in the first
16:36place.
16:37But there was such a twisted way that we were trained to believe salvation and the forces
16:46of good versus the forces of evil.
16:48I know people, I know ministers who were openly teaching that pretty much everything that
16:54happened to you that you didn't like came from some sort of a demonic force and everything
17:00good came from the good forces and it was more like the Oriental yin and yang type religion
17:06than it was Christianity.
17:08And then the whole, the healing movement as a whole, most, not all, but most of them adopted
17:14the idea that the healing was buried into the atonement and so your salvation was linked
17:20to your healing.
17:21That works well unless you have some sort of a chronic disease that doesn't get healed.
17:26Now you can't be saved in your mindset.
17:28So unraveling salvation for me was a big topic.
17:33And I'll be honest, as I was getting into the apologetics forums, because I was not yet,
17:40what's the word, I would not yet consider myself mature in my understanding, but I wasn't even
17:46as far enough as, along as I am now, I'll just say it like that, to where I didn't fully
17:51understand the difference.
17:53And I would say that that was one of the flaws of what I went through.
17:57There weren't a lot of people talking about that subject because there's such a variety
18:03of views on what is salvation, what does it mean.
18:07Once I started reading the Bible for myself, I'm a little surprised that that wasn't the
18:10foundation of every conversation, because it's so simple, anybody can read and understand
18:15it.
18:16Darrell Bock I agree.
18:16And I like that you brought up the healing miracles and stuff like that.
18:20I think a lot of people, especially in some Pentecostal groups, I think they kind of misunderstand
18:25the purpose of a miracle.
18:27You know, one thing is, you know, miracles display God's glory, and it's used to help,
18:33you know, people along.
18:35And, you know, not that, you know, the people that are healed aren't grateful.
18:38But I think about Lazarus, you know, the Bible says Lazarus was raised from the dead.
18:42Well, guess what?
18:43He still died eventually again, you know, just because he was raised from the dead doesn't
18:48mean he didn't eventually get sick again and die, you know.
18:51And just because you're not healed from an affliction does not mean that you don't have
18:58faith, you know.
19:00I think about Paul.
19:01Paul talks about the thorn in his side.
19:03You know, we don't really know what that is, but, you know, it's assumed to be some
19:05sort of medical affliction that he suffered, you know, with something throughout his life
19:10that God did not heal.
19:12And I'm leery to put myself above Paul in the Bible or any of the 12 apostles who, you
19:19know, were, you know, killed for their faith later on.
19:22You know, I can't really say, well, they didn't have faith because all these bad things happened
19:25to them or they didn't get healed of X, Y, or Z.
19:28It's like, it doesn't work that way.
19:30Yeah, exactly.
19:32There really are so many misinterpretations of what a spiritual experience should be versus
19:40what the stage persona wants you to think it is.
19:43And I think that's a big problem for all people who are either in ministry or apologetics because
19:51so many people have been influenced by all of the televangelists, the stage acts, even
19:56in some of the churches that I would say are fully disconnected from anything charismatic
20:01or Pentecostal.
20:02You even see some of that influence creeping into them because there is a well-studied pattern
20:10pattern of how to grow your church large and how to get the biggest numbers of tithing
20:15offerings, biggest buildings, and everybody wants to achieve that.
20:19So they're all kind of following the same formula.
20:21Well, sadly, that formula will edge into what the Christian experience is supposed to be.
20:28And in the end, a lot of that is just simply entertainment.
20:31A while back, you know, before I got into apologetics, you know, I read a book and it was talking
20:37about worship and how worship has developed over the years.
20:40And it talked about how in the modern age, we really see a focus on the individual and
20:45the individual's personal experience, the way their emotions are brought into play and
20:53stuff like that.
20:53And it's not saying that that's a positive thing.
20:55And I don't really think it is either.
20:57Um, if your faith is always based on emotion and what you feel, I mean, guess what?
21:03Some days you're going to wake up and not feel particularly Christian.
21:07Yeah.
21:07You know, there are going to be moments where you're going to not, you know, so if your
21:11faith is just based on that emotion and stuff like that, um, you know, you're going to be
21:16always chasing that high.
21:17You're going to be constantly chasing it.
21:19And I, you know, think that's why some of these charismatic cults are so popular is
21:23because they kind of become, you know, the dealer of that emotion and that high and that
21:29experience.
21:29And people just are chasing that constantly.
21:32Um, and you know, and, uh, you, you can correct me if I'm wrong, but I think that's why some
21:37of these people get such a following where they, people feel like if they're not getting
21:41that high from that person, then it's all fake because it's so surface level.
21:46There's no depth to it because it is purely emotion driven.
21:49Darrell Bock Yeah, and it's addictive.
21:51It starts to release dopamine and other endorphins and chemicals in your brain that just makes
21:57you where, when you walk away from it, you want to have it again.
22:00You want to keep coming back.
22:02And it really comes down to, I guess for me, the proof test is just simply how does the group
22:09view the presence of God?
22:12The presence of God is connected to emotion and atmosphere, the music, the tears.
22:17I've, I've been to some groups that I would not say even had a charismatic style, but
22:22they had some, some techniques that were just bringing people to crying all the time.
22:29Well, I don't like to cry all the time.
22:30That doesn't, that's not me.
22:32But some, some of the older folks, they do apparently, and they thought that this was
22:37God.
22:37And I, I remember encountering some people who were just bawling and they were saying God
22:42was, God was with us today, and it was one of those days I wasn't in the best of moods.
22:47I, I didn't show up to church, really anticipating getting much out of it, and God wasn't moving
22:53for me.
22:54So I began to realize that the, the presence of God, as the way they explain it as this
22:59thing that comes and just blankets the building in the charismatic movement, it really seems
23:05to me that that's a bit off, that, that doesn't match my proof test for what, what this actually
23:11is.
23:11Exactly.
23:12Um, and you know, the thing about it is, is like in my own life, you know, uh, the presence
23:19of what I, what I believe was the presence of God was most acutely felt in the low points
23:24versus the high points where I was at my lowest points in life and I could feel God there.
23:30Um, and you know, cause, and I say that not cause I, I do believe you can feel it, you
23:35know, in that God is real, but it's a lot more, like you said, nuanced.
23:40Um, it's a lot more delicate than just, well, all y'all are crying, therefore God's here.
23:48It's a little bit more than that, I would think.
23:50The other thing that I have noticed as a, as a tool that's used, and this is mostly the
23:56Pentecostal charismatic type religions, there's this idea of making people adhere to the belief
24:06that a prophet is more than a human and that a prophet has greater authority over other
24:11humans.
24:12And the structure to me, it really matches some of the pagan cults more than it does the
24:17Christian religion or the, or the way Judaism was.
24:21So one of, one of the clearest examples, whenever I am talking to people, I will, I will ask
24:26them, well, do you believe in a prophet?
24:28Do you have an apostle?
24:29Do you have something in the fivefold type ministry?
24:33And just ask them what they think about it.
24:36And the responses that you get vary from group to group, but the, the thing that really, for
24:43me, tips me off if they're in some sort of a cultish environment is they are given the
24:50idea that you can't question this person who is in this so-called authority.
24:55In other words, if they're a prophet, you can't test the prophecies.
24:57That is something that God does not permit.
25:01But yet the Bible is very clear that that's how we determine, is it a prophet of God or not?
25:06Exactly.
25:08And, you know, that, that's kind of a litmus test right there.
25:10It's like, well, you know, you know, they say that, but then you've got to ask, it's like,
25:14well, have they ever prophesied something or said something that turned out not to be true?
25:19Okay, well, let's juxtapose that, what the Bible says about people who prophesy falsely
25:24or preach falsely or teach falsely.
25:27You know, I don't want the, the title of prophet.
25:32Because if you're wrong once, you're kind of, you're kind of, you know, you're in trouble.
25:36You're, you're up the creek.
25:37You know, it's not a good place to be.
25:39I do not want that title at all in my life.
25:41And one of the biggest changes for me after leaving the group and starting to dive into
25:48apologetics, I began at that point, I was reading the Bible over and over, cover to cover, just
25:54to try to wash all of this out.
25:56One of the hardest things to wash out of my head was this notion of God told me.
26:03Because so many people have taken it in such a way where if you have intuition, God told
26:08me, or if something came to, something happened in the way that you wanted it to happen that
26:15was favorable to you, God told me, and therefore I did it.
26:19And the movement has really taught the people that every aspect of life, God is speaking to
26:24you verbally, but nobody can actually mention the words that are spoken verbally.
26:29That's the funny part of this.
26:30And so one of my litmus tests to find out if somebody is in one of these groups or something
26:36influenced by it is just listen to the way that they talk.
26:39And sure enough, nine times out of 10, you're going to get somebody who said, well, God told
26:44me I need, I need to wait and pray about that before I continue or something to that effect.
26:49Have you encountered people who use that type of language?
26:53I've encountered people that have used that language.
26:55And, you know, and kind of on the flip side, I've had people tell me that they're bothered
27:00that they don't hear that voice or that kid's like, well, I don't think I've ever heard God's
27:05voice.
27:05I'm like, well, you know, it's so much deeper than just that.
27:09Or like you pointed out, it's not your internal monologue.
27:12Most people have that, you know, it's not that, you know.
27:16And so when people struggle with it, like, oh, I'm not hearing from God directly.
27:19It's like, you know, it's so much more than that.
27:22There's so much more depth and nuance to it than that.
27:25Because I do believe God's providential hand does, you know, guide us at times in our life.
27:30But yeah, no, just when people are like, oh, God told me to do this or God told me to
27:35do
27:35that.
27:35It's kind of like, you know, I feel almost more of a, you know, I know some people mean it
27:41from a good place.
27:41But then I think other people, especially some of these bigger cults, they use it almost as
27:45their shield.
27:45Like, you can't question me because God told me.
27:48Have you ever wondered how the Pentecostal movement started or how the progression of
27:53modern Pentecostalism transitioned through the latter reign, charismatic, and other fringe
27:59movements into the new apostolic reformation?
28:01You can learn this and more on William Branham Historical Research's website,
28:07william-branham.org.
28:09On the books page of the website, you can find the compiled research of John Collins,
28:14Charles Paisley, Stephen Montgomery, John McKinnon, and others, with links to the paper,
28:20audio, and digital versions of each book.
28:23You can also find resources and documentation on various people and topics related to those
28:29movements.
28:29If you want to contribute to the cause, you can support the podcast by clicking the
28:34Contribute button at the top.
28:36And as always, be sure to like and subscribe to the audio or video version that you're
28:41listening to or watching.
28:42On behalf of William Branham Historical Research, we want to thank you for your support.
28:47So, not to put you on the spot, but to bring up the question that really is the one that
28:53will either make people want to continue listening to the podcast or just run screaming and say,
28:59we're not listening to this anymore.
29:01Let's talk about speaking in tongues.
29:05As you know, coming out of the Pentecostal movement, there are a lot of people who,
29:10they believe that whenever somebody speaks in an unknown tongue, that nobody in the building
29:17can understand and may or may not have an interpreter to interpret it to their language.
29:24They see this as something that's happening from God.
29:27The interesting part of this for me is that in the Branham religion, Branham was pretty well
29:35sanctioned by most of the Pentecostals by the end of his life, and that's the version of
29:40the stage persona that stuck with the Branham cult.
29:43In that version, he was solidly against speaking in tongues, or at least not as open to it as
29:50others, I should say.
29:52And so, we didn't look at it in the same way as other Pentecostals did.
29:56But I did encounter Pentecostals who did speak in tongues.
30:00And I always thought, even in the Branham religion, even though it wasn't really a
30:05sanctioned practice, there weren't that many people that did it, I thought it was a
30:09thing of God.
30:10But when I began reading the Bible over and over and starting to understand what it meant
30:16and why the gift was given in the first place, it raised a lot of questions for me.
30:22And I'm not going to answer those questions in this podcast, but I'm going to ask you those
30:27questions.
30:27Do you see the Pentecostal Charismatic movement, the speaking in tongues, as a biblical practice
30:34or an extra-biblical practice, and why?
30:37I look at it as an extra-biblical practice, mostly because I look at the Bible, and originally
30:45it was people hearing it in a coherent language, like during Pentecost.
30:50The disciples got the gift of tongues, and that was not incomprehensible speech or unknown.
30:58It was people were hearing in their own language and tongue.
31:02And also, too, anytime I've ever heard speaking in tongues myself, because I've been around
31:06some Pentecostals, I've never heard an interpreter.
31:09So, that kind of, you know, a lot of times, I know that people are like, well, I have to
31:12get them interpretation, but I haven't seen it.
31:15And I know some people do say they've seen it, and that's fine.
31:18But, you know, I just, that.
31:21And, you know, a lot of people don't like this answer, but I'm a big fan of church history,
31:28and church history really doesn't pan out, you know, showing speaking in tongues in the
31:32manner of Pentecostalism until the Restorationist movements that sprung up Pentecostalism.
31:39And some of the people that were proponents of it aren't exactly people that I would think
31:43if people knew the history would really trust those people and their opinions.
31:50But another thing I look at, you know, the Bible talks about the Holy Spirit interceding
31:54for us with groanings deeper than anybody can understand.
31:57So, it's like, why do I need to speak in tongues when the Holy Spirit, you know, intercedes for
32:04me?
32:05You know, it's like, so to me, it's almost like a logical question, even.
32:09It's like, why do I need to do this thing where God's like, I've already taken care of
32:14it for you.
32:14I know, I understand, I see your heart, I know your heart better than you do yourself.
32:19Yeah, I struggle in many ways because my mind is very logical.
32:23And for people who don't know this, there are parts of your personality, there is even
32:31a personality test, I've spoken to psychologists who tell me that there was a category of your
32:38personality that they used to simply call faith.
32:40And some people, it was off the charts, they would just believe anything without verifying
32:45it.
32:45And that's just their personality type.
32:47Mine was the opposite.
32:49And I actually had a personality coach tell me that, John, you're kind of off the charts
32:55on the logic side.
32:56You probably need to step it back a little bit.
33:00And I can't.
33:01Like, it's my personality.
33:03And they understood that.
33:05But for me, when I started to think through this logically, the questions that were raised
33:11for me were more about the logic behind it.
33:14If the gospel needed to be spread and there weren't enough people who spoke other languages,
33:20what better way to send people out and spread the gospel than to let people hear it in their
33:25own tongue?
33:26And so for the initial spreading, the initial speaking in tongues that was mentioned in the
33:31Bible, that makes sense.
33:33Now fast forward to the, you know, Charles Fox Parham.
33:38Charles Fox Parham believed that his speaking in tongues would do that same thing.
33:42He thought he was going to recreate that, and it failed miserably.
33:47They went to China.
33:49Nobody could speak.
33:50They were nearly starved to death.
33:51They came back.
33:52And then they kind of adjusted the doctrine.
33:55Well, it's for the edification of the church.
33:59And that's all well and good.
34:00I know Pentecostals who will believe everything that I just said is fact, but they'll say it
34:05is for the edification of the church, many of which have never been in the room with
34:10somebody who speaks a different language.
34:12I have.
34:13I've worked with – I've had employees that didn't even speak my language.
34:16And so I've been in rooms where people were speaking, and unless you had somebody
34:20to interpret, you didn't understand a word that was coming out of their mouth, right?
34:25And I got to thinking as I was doing my crash course in apologetics, if it's for edification
34:32of the church, and there are instances where there is no interpreter, does that make God
34:38inferior?
34:39Because God doesn't have the power to edify the church through the voice that he is giving
34:45to speak to the church.
34:47And again, I'm not going to say it's right or wrong, but for me, it raised such a solid
34:52question that I came to the conclusion that whether you believe the answer is yes or no,
35:00I personally am not edified by hearing somebody speak something that I can't understand, and
35:05I will never be edified by this.
35:07So I have since then – I've actually been in a service where somebody did speak in tongues,
35:13and I heard it, and honestly, my mind wasn't thinking about the things that I couldn't
35:19understand, because I can't understand it.
35:21I was actually thinking, well, if I go to this restaurant, they've got a steak, and I go
35:27to this other restaurant, and my mind was off in left field, because I can't understand
35:32what they're saying.
35:33And so for me, like I said, that was a huge question.
35:38How do you bridge that gap between somebody like me, who's very analytical, somebody – say,
35:46for example, somebody who is struggling because they realize they're in a Pentecostal or charismatic
35:52cult that practices this, but they don't have the analytical mind I have.
35:57They have the faith-based mind, and they just simply believe it because that's what they've
36:02been trained.
36:03How would you help them to understand why this is so different than what they believe?
36:08Well, I think, you know, just initially you just go to, you know, the verses that deal
36:14with speaking in tongues.
36:15You just kind of walk them through that contextually.
36:17You've got to go back to that, I think.
36:21That'd be the big thing.
36:22And, you know, the Bible does, I believe, speak of a prayer language, you know, and how
36:27that's a private thing.
36:28You know, when people talk about that, I have no problem with that, because as you said,
36:32that doesn't sow any kind of discord or anything like that.
36:35That is between you and God in private.
36:38And, you know, I think, you know, I don't really know if I even, you know, I mean, I don't
36:44do it, you know, or I don't see anything wrong with that, so I think, you know, when you
36:48look at it, I'm not going to go in and just be like, well, this is all hogwash, because
36:52I think in some instances it might not be.
36:55I'm very open to some of it being legitimate.
36:57I just think, you know, if you look at the scripture, and if you say you have faith in
37:02the Bible, you've got to look at the Bible and take it for what it is, read it in context,
37:07and like you said, speaking in tongues has a precise purpose, you know?
37:12Same thing as the healing miracles.
37:13The healing miracles, the purpose of them was, you know, when Christ did it was to prove
37:18his divinity, and then when, in the New Testament after Christ, it was to help spread the gospel
37:22further and give legitimacy to the message that you're spreading, you know, or that they
37:27were spreading.
37:28And so I look at it that way, so, and like you pointed out, you know, just modern speaking
37:34in tongues, to me, you know, when I first heard it, it was not a pleasant thing.
37:38It was very disconcerting, you know, and I've had several people tell that to me.
37:43It's, you know, and I know when you're in it, it's different, but from the outside looking
37:46in, it's a very fearful thing.
37:48It's not something that is natural.
37:50It's something that actually pushes people away more than anything.
37:55I do have a story I like to tell.
37:57One of the times I heard speaking in tongues was a Pentecostal showed up to a Baptist funeral
38:04and start speaking in tongues just in the crowd at this funeral, and it was like, in
38:08retrospect, it's mildly entertaining, but during the time, it was like, everybody was
38:12kind of like, whoa, what's going on?
38:13It kind of threw everybody off kilter at a funeral, you know, where you're here to remember
38:18somebody's life.
38:19So it just, you know, it's an interesting thing, and like I said, you know, somebody
38:22trying to come out of a cult, I would just encourage, you know, somebody just really,
38:26you know, it doesn't really matter what I say or what I think.
38:28It's more what God says, you know, go to the Bible, read it, don't let somebody else
38:33read it for you.
38:34You know, a lot of cults, you know, they'll take passages out of context, like go read
38:38the whole book or read, at least read the whole chapter that that story's in and really
38:43see where the author's coming from and where it frames into the rest of the book.
38:48Yeah, I'm kind of in the same place.
38:50I could see the speaking in tongues and the prayer in tongues, it would edify the person
38:55who's doing it maybe, but again, I'm sitting there listening to it, and it really did nothing
39:01for me to say it like that.
39:04But I will give my opinion on this one.
39:06There is one of the, I would say, one of the most destructive things that came out of the
39:11latter rain movement, and it actually predated latter rain.
39:14I've studied this all the way back to John Alexander Dowie's Zion City cult, and Zion City
39:20was crumbling, and Charles Fox Parham came in.
39:24The Parhamites started the early stages of the deliverance ministry, and they actually
39:31killed more than one person doing it.
39:34They believed they could pray and straighten bones and all kinds of things.
39:39They created something that was so destructive in its essence that they nearly were, there
39:46were people who wanted to get them prosecuted, and some of them, I think, fled.
39:50You had John Lake, who was in that same Parhamite ministry.
39:54He went all the way to South Africa.
39:56So you had people who probably were evading the law, but then they continued that same
40:03thing because they believed that they had the power to do this.
40:08Now, on the flip side, I'll say this openly, and I'll anger the other half of the crowd that's
40:12not already angry at me, I like the Harry Potter books and Harry Potter movies.
40:17I like a good fantasy about a sorcerer.
40:21I don't truly believe that today sorcerers exist in the way the Harry Potter books portray
40:29them, right?
40:30But I look at the deliverance ministers, and I've actually watched a few of them do their
40:34stage act, and that's really what I see.
40:37I see a stage act.
40:38If I were to go to a magic show, I would see a magician do their stage act.
40:43I see them as quite manipulative in their way of teaching people, but they do exactly
40:50what you said prior to this.
40:53You're talking about the fear that gets instilled into the people.
40:56They get people so scared of the demons that truly God is powerless to protect them unless
41:04you have the sorcerer who's doing the stage act on the show.
41:07For me, I see this as very destructive.
41:11What would you say from an apologetic standpoint?
41:14What would you say to people that believe in this type of ministry?
41:18Well, when it comes to something like that, when I think about the powers and principalities
41:25of this world that are not of this world, I would tell people from a biblical point, I
41:32think about the book of Jude that talks about the body of Moses and stuff like that and
41:37the devil being scared of just by the name of Jesus.
41:39It's not about the person.
41:43It's about Christ.
41:44It's like, you look at through the Gospels, the power of Christ was sufficient to drive
41:50off the demons.
41:53I just don't think there are any, but I don't think the Bible lays out that there needs to
41:57be specifically exorcists.
42:00Your faith is sufficient.
42:02If God is indwelled within you, you don't need to worry about demons coming into you and
42:07making you sick.
42:08I just don't think that that's how that works at all.
42:13You know, just I think about so many people live in fear of all that.
42:20I think, you know, while on one hand, the biggest trick in some ways, the devil played
42:26on non-believers is to convince people that he didn't exist.
42:29I think on believers, he's convinced people that he's got way more power than he actually
42:33does.
42:34A lot of what we experience today is because of us and our own sin.
42:39And some of the stuff we deal with is because of our own infirmities, not because of anything
42:43supernatural accosting us.
42:46I think about one of my favorite sermons is Jonathan Edwards, Sinners in the Hands of
42:51an Angry God.
42:52And, you know, a lot of people, you know, may look at that title and wonder, but it's actually
42:56a good one to go read or listen to because basically it just talks about God holds everything
43:01together.
43:02You know, so much of the world, so much of the wickedness is just us being human and wicked
43:08on our own.
43:09Now, I'm not going to say that there's, I don't believe in demonic stuff.
43:12I surely do.
43:14But in the life of the average Christian, it's really not going to play that much of a part.
43:19I don't believe.
43:20Along with that, hand in hand pretty much, it's kind of interesting because if you follow
43:25that trail of history, that trail leads you into what's called the shepherding movement
43:30where five people basically created this authoritarian control system and it turned very, very bad.
43:37We know that in history.
43:39Those same people that were doing this came from the trail of history that had the deliverance
43:45ministries.
43:46In fact, Earn Baxter, who was on one of the five of the shepherds, the chief shepherds,
43:52I should say, he was William Branham's partner in the healing revivals.
43:56And Branham and Gordon Lindsay would hold these deliverance seminars to teach people how to do
44:01this sorcery, these magic stage acts.
44:05What's interesting to me, as I began to try to untangle both the Bible for what it says,
44:12not for what I've been told that it says, and then compare it to these deliverance-type ministries,
44:19the thought suddenly struck me, the fear that is instilled by these types of ministries
44:25actually creates a hindrance towards discipleship.
44:30But there are actually people who get so built up in fear that they really, truly can't be
44:35discipled in the way that other Christians can in churches that does not have this.
44:41What would you say from a scriptural standpoint?
44:44What would you say to people who believe that this type of ministry actually brings you closer
44:51to God versus what the Bible talks about these ministries that are just building people up
44:58by fear?
44:58Well, I mean, you know, just biblically, I think the Bible talks about, you know, a big
45:04one is the Bereans, you know, they tested everything against scripture, you know, the Bible, and the
45:10Bible talks about testing things you hear constantly.
45:13And I, you know, I may anger some of the more, you know, hardcore conservatives, but I believe
45:20in questioning everything, you know?
45:22You know, I mean, not, you know, even like in my own faith, I've questioned it, not because
45:26I thought, you know, it was wrong, but just like, I want to make sure I'm as right and
45:30as accurate as possible.
45:32But a lot of these groups, they tell you not to question, not to test these things, just,
45:37you know.
45:39You know, and that's kind of, you know, I think about places like Jehovah's Witnesses,
45:43you know, you're taught just to read what you're told and don't question it.
45:46So, yeah, if somebody was in one of those where it's super controlled, I'd say, hey, just,
45:50you know, go to the Bible, test it, you know?
45:53Question it, question everything.
45:55You know, I don't think, you know, God gets mad when we question things.
45:58You know, I've questioned, you know, I've asked God why on plenty of occasions.
46:05I've never, you know, it's careful.
46:06There's a difference between questioning and accusing, though, you know?
46:11You know, so for people who don't think I've been accusing God, but like, I've asked God
46:15why, why is this happening?
46:16And I've went and I've studied and I've learned and I've grown because of it, you know, spiritually,
46:23you know, you know, and, you know, in knowledge as well.
46:28And in the Bible, you know, I think that's the thing you got to do is I don't think if
46:33you're in a group that tells you you can't question anything, that's a place you need
46:35to be.
46:37Absolutely.
46:37I began, as I was doing the study through apologetics, I began studying a lot of the
46:43ancient mythologies.
46:45I was even growing up in the cult, I was fascinated by them, but we were so trained that you
46:51might
46:51accidentally catch a demon that I was a little bit scared to look into them, right?
46:56Because those are the demons, right?
46:57And I started reading, as I was doing the apologetics, I started reading passages that
47:03are talking about, don't fear these things.
47:05These are idols made of stone, right?
47:07In other words, a human made this idol that you're fearing.
47:10And I began to realize that while the ancient Jews and the early Christians were teaching
47:19people that you don't need to be so scared, and then combine it with passages like, what
47:25is it?
47:25There's a phrase in Matthew, I can't remember what chapter, but it says basically, the leaders
47:30in the heavenly kingdom do not lord over the others like the pagan rulers do.
47:36And that had real meaning to me because I had been studying how the ancient world, how
47:41the pagans did lord over the people.
47:43And they combined their political realm with the religion and then governed everybody by
47:49fear.
47:50And I began to realize that if the Christians are not to be like this, and the churches that
47:56weren't from the same lineage that I came from were not like this, the churches who were outside
48:02of that lineage, I began to realize that there's something wrong.
48:05And I was trying to put my finger on what exactly would cause this.
48:09And it came down to a question that may never be answered for me.
48:14I'll let you talk about it.
48:15But I came to realize that there were people involved in leadership in the movement that
48:21swayed the movement in one direction or another, who really didn't have the intent of empowering
48:28the people.
48:28They had the intent of empowering themselves.
48:31And while there were some really good people in the movement who probably did believe that
48:36they were doing something godly, the power of the people who had the ill intent was such
48:44that it was swaying the movement in a direction that I felt was more destructive than good.
48:49So I started going through the Bible, as I'm reading through it over and over again, I started
48:54reading through the Bible from a different perspective.
48:56How do I identify false leaders?
48:59And that's the question they're building up to.
49:02From your perspective in the Bible, how would you identify somebody who's actually leading
49:06people astray rather than leading them down the good path?
49:10You know, when you look at the Bible and the way good leaders were, their lives reflected,
49:16you know, their personal lives and what they preached reflected each other.
49:21You know, I think about, you know, something like a prosperity gospel.
49:25You know, they're preaching this prosperity.
49:28They have prosperity, but nobody else has prosperity.
49:31You know, there is a clear delineation between the have and the have-nots.
49:37You know, in the cult, you came out of, you know, there were special privileges for those
49:42who were in leadership or, you know, or there were things that people in leadership did that
49:47the people underneath could not do.
49:49You know, whereas in, you know, true Christianity, the, the pastor, even though he is called by
49:56God, he is held to a higher standard.
49:59If anything, his way of living may end up being less than in a material sense or simpler
50:05than, um, what the rest of everybody lives sometimes, you know, and, you know, you see
50:11in traditional denominations like Catholicism and Orthodoxy, that's what they're called to.
50:16They live a more deprived life than everybody else does.
50:22Whereas in a lot of these cults, like, you know, you see the people at the top live far
50:27and beyond and have special privileges that everybody else doesn't have.
50:32Where the Bible is very clear that every man is held to the same standard.
50:36And if anything, the teachers are held to a much higher standard.
50:40You know, if you call somebody, some, well, God, what does Christ say?
50:42Better to put a millstone around your neck and throw yourself in the ocean.
50:45And, you know, they're, and so that's kind of one way I look at it.
50:49When I look at a group is just, you know, what are they preaching?
50:55And then how are they living apart from that preaching?
50:59And how is everybody else that's following them living compared to that preaching?
51:05You know, I knew a woman who was older, who really got into the name it and claim it stuff.
51:10You know, she had a massive tumor.
51:12You could see it was on her shoulder.
51:14She goes, I'm just praying to name it and claim it.
51:15They said it was going to go away.
51:17You know, and she ended up passing away shortly after.
51:20It's like, you know, I don't think the man, you know, who gathered all that money from her really catered,
51:26you know, that she passed on.
51:29You know, and I, you know, I believe she was a believer.
51:31You know, she did it in good faith.
51:32And he probably will have to answer for that.
51:36But, you know, that, I guess that's kind of a long answer, but that's kind of the way I look
51:40at it anyway.
51:42It makes sense.
51:43There is not really a right or wrong answer.
51:45But it's, for me, it's one of those things that you really need to think through, especially if you're in
51:50one of these movements.
51:51You have to think through how does the leadership act and do they match what you would expect of a
51:57leader who's trying to empower the people?
52:01Or is this something that is actually demotivating you?
52:05I came to realize after I left, in many ways, I was so demotivated because we weren't allowed to think.
52:12And for me, that was probably the biggest problem.
52:15And I will also say, for me, that was one of the empowering things of doing apologetics for the three
52:21years I did.
52:23It forced me to think.
52:24I was actually getting kind of outside of my element in some ways.
52:28I was trying to think more structured than I had ever thought about religion, Christianity, the Bible.
52:35So there was a lot to learn.
52:36There's a lot still to learn.
52:38But I'm very glad that we did this.
52:40I hope we've excited somebody to dig a little deeper.
52:44Thank you so much for doing this.
52:45Yes, sir.
52:46Thank you for having me.
52:47Well, if you've enjoyed our show and you want more information, you can check us out on the web.
52:50You can find us at william-branham.org.
52:53For more about the dark side of the New Apostolic Reformation,
52:55you can read Weaponized Religion from Christian Identity to the NAR.
53:00Available on Amazon, Kindle, and Audible.
53:55You can find us at william-branham.org.
54:08Weaponized Religion from Christian Identity to the NAR.
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