Stage Deliverance: How Fear Replaced Faith | Chino Ross | Podcast Episode 666 - video Dailymotion

William Branham Historical Research

John and Chino discuss how deliverance teaching became a fear-based stage act in parts of the Latter Rain, Healing Revival, William Branham, Hobart Freeman, and later charismatic movements.  They examine how people were trained to see demons behind sickness, fear, accidents, intrusive thoughts, mental health struggles, and ordinary life problems. Instead of creating freedom, this worldview often made people afraid, dependent on powerful ministers, and unable to question the people claiming authority over the invisible world.  They also discuss the connection between stage deliverance, divine healing extremism, rejection of medicine, "touch not mine anointed" manipulation, misuse of Scripture, and the damage caused when ministers present themselves as spiritual gatekeepers.    00:00 Introduction 01:07 The Stage Version of Deliverance 03:20 Healing and Deliverance in Pentecostalism 06:41 The Psychological Damage of Demon Teaching 10:58 Circular Reasoning and a Fear-Based Worldview 14:40 Binding Spirits and Claims of Spiritual Power 22:12 Mark 11, Spoken Words, and Moving Mountains 26:01 Culture, Fundamentalism, and Medical Science 29:47 The Lasting Mental-Health Impact of Deliverance Teaching 32:19 Ministers as the Mouthpiece of God 39:13 The Sorcerer and the Deliverance Stage Act 41:12 Misreading Deliverance in Scripture 51:03 Deliverance Ministry and Occult Parallels 54:34 Is Fear Really a Demon? 57:36 The Damage to Faith and Families 59:27 Conclusion ______________________ Weaponized Religion: From Christian Identity to the NAR: Paperback: https://www.amazon.com/dp/1735160962 Kindle: https://www.amazon.com/dp/B0DCGGZX3K ______________________ – Support the channel: https://www.patreon.com/branham – Subscribe to the channel: https://www.youtube.com/channel/UCBSpezVG15TVG-lOYMRXuyQ – Visit the website: https://william-branham.org – Follow on Facebook: https://www.facebook.com/WilliamBranhamOrg  – Follow on TikTok: https://www.tiktok.com/@william.m.branham – Follow on Twitter: https://twitter.com/wmbhr – Buy the books: https://william-branham.org/site/books

Transcript

00:00:31Hello, and welcome to another episode of the William Branham Historical Research Podcast.

00:00:36I'm your host, John Collins, the author and founder of William Branham Historical Research

00:00:40at william-branham.org, and with me I have my co-host, minister, and friend, Chino Ross,

00:00:46pastor and the voice of the Understanding Scripture and Truth by Chino D. Ross YouTube channel.

00:00:51Chino, I'm a little bit excited to talk about this one today because this is something that

00:00:57affected me so much, and it affects so many people today.

00:01:00I can read through the comment feeds, and I can see people who are just really struggling

00:01:05with it, and they don't know that they're struggling with it.

00:01:07But this idea of this stage version of deliverance, I'm going to start using that phrase.

00:01:15It's a stage version of deliverance.

00:01:17The Bible does talk about people who are casting out demons and the sick and the afflicted and

00:01:23all of this, but what they did with Latter Rain is they turned it into a stage act, and

00:01:28there's a few reasons why they did this.

00:01:30But the story that I'm going to open with is, and it'll make everybody mad, so hang on

00:01:36to the seizure pants.

00:01:37You're probably going to get mad at me.

00:01:38I read books like crazy when I was a kid because we didn't have a TV for a large part

00:01:43of my

00:01:44life, and I would bicycle to the library and bring home these two big paper sacks full of

00:01:49books, and I'd read them almost every week.

00:01:51I'd get two sackfuls.

00:01:53And one day I picked up a copy of The Shining.

00:01:56I'd never heard of it, and I did not know at that time that Stephen King was this thing

00:02:02that's taboo in all of this movement.

00:02:04I just read it, and it was a good book.

00:02:06I couldn't put it down, but it was talking about people who were filled with mental demons,

00:02:11and I started comparing that to some of the things that I heard in the sermons.

00:02:16Well, fast forward to today's world.

00:02:19Right before we left the religion, I started hearing people talking about Stephen King,

00:02:23and they said the reason why he is so good at that is because he invites all these demons

00:02:28in his house, and they're real demons, and they're communicating with them.

00:02:32And even then, I thought, you know, that's really stupid.

00:02:35I don't really believe that, but that was what we were supposed to believe.

00:02:40And long story short, it was a stage version of this demon angel's realm that got people

00:02:48so scared that I knew people that were just scared to walk outside.

00:02:52They might accidentally catch a demon, and we did not have a God that would protect us

00:02:57from it.

00:02:58I think that's the biggest key, which we'll get into today.

00:03:01But needless to say, this thing has trapped so many minds and has so many people so uptight

00:03:08that they can't even really communicate with each other.

00:03:10They're so afraid of it.

00:03:12And so I'm excited to talk about this one.

00:03:15Yeah, I suppose it may be the two big threads of experience and discussion and practice

00:03:24in the Pentecostal movement of the 40s and 50s and on up into the 60s and 70s was healing on

00:03:33one hand and deliverance on the other.

00:03:35So it was healing and deliverance.

00:03:36I mean, we hear those words and read of those two concepts all the time, healing and deliverance.

00:03:47And, you know, we spent a long time, it's just been a couple of years, talking about Dr.

00:03:56Freeman's views with regard to divine healing.

00:04:00That's what he was really known for on the one hand, and it gave him a big platform.

00:04:07It also engendered a lot of negative publicity whenever the healing method didn't work the

00:04:15way he had said that it would.

00:04:17So, you know, we spent a lot of time on that.

00:04:20And Hobart's view was definitely more extreme than you'll find in some of the other ministers

00:04:26and teachers, where for Dr. Freeman, it was no medicine, no drugs, no doctors.

00:04:33They had come up with this little cute understanding of what MD stood for, stood for medical deities,

00:04:41because he said the doctors and the hospitals are like gods today, and you have to obey them

00:04:49and believe them.

00:04:50So Hobart had outlawed all doctors, all medicine, all drugs.

00:04:55And we saw the repercussions of that.

00:04:57You know, the healings were few and far between.

00:05:01They weren't documented.

00:05:03You know, to try to document or substantiate anything would be, you know, being something

00:05:09akin to doubting Thomas, and you just need to believe, and you don't need verification.

00:05:14And I understand all of that rationale, and in a perfect world, I could agree with that

00:05:19rationale.

00:05:20Yeah, we don't need any verification, because we're all on the up and up, and we would never

00:05:27deceive or mislead anyone.

00:05:29So in a perfect world, I'm with you on that, but we don't live in a perfect world.

00:05:34And so when someone says such and such got healed, you know, I want to know, well, what

00:05:39did they have, and how do we know that they got healed?

00:05:44And was it a sore back that, you know, they prayed, and seven days later, they were healed?

00:05:52That could have been seven days of rest might have healed that back.

00:05:57So I'm not a big fan of things like that.

00:06:00I'm just not.

00:06:01And I don't see that in the pages of Scripture.

00:06:05We all have sore backs, and we all get over it eventually.

00:06:09If you've got a broken back, if you're blind, if you're deaf, if you're dumb, if you're dead,

00:06:15that's another matter.

00:06:16And those are the things that we see happening in the New Testament.

00:06:20And so we spent a lot of time on that, the healing side, because that's what really

00:06:28affected people in their physical lives in ways which we could see and we could talk about

00:06:38and we could know.

00:06:40This other area, John, is probably just as important and just as significant and just

00:06:47as dangerous.

00:06:48And that's this deliverance side where Dr. Freeman and the ministers that came under him

00:06:56and after him were getting into people's minds.

00:07:01This is, you know, a psychological attempt to try to analyze these people and then pinpoint,

00:07:09well, the reason that you have this problem or hang up is because you have a demon.

00:07:17You have a door that's been opened to demonic oppression or depression, or sometimes they

00:07:25would even go to the big word, possession.

00:07:28They'd like to tiptoe around all the eshens there, and they hated to get to the possession

00:07:35because then they were worried about, well, can a Christian who is full of Jesus really

00:07:42also have a demon living in them also?

00:07:44We'll talk about that, not today, but in the future, because Hobart just had some really

00:07:49odd and crazy views there.

00:07:51But I think that the deliverance teaching under Dr. Freeman was terribly damaging in the lives

00:08:01of the followers.

00:08:02Maybe not in a way that we can document, like we can document the healing side.

00:08:08You know, if someone said they threw away their medication for kidney disease or diabetes or

00:08:18something, and then they died, well, we know right away that didn't work, and so that created

00:08:22a problem.

00:08:23When we come over to this area of demons and deliverance, you know, this is all invisible

00:08:29and in the spiritual world.

00:08:31And so it's a little harder to get your hands on it and to get a handle on it.

00:08:36But I do think that it has caused every bit as much damage and maybe even more than the

00:08:45healing and physical teaching that Dr. Freeman did.

00:08:50The physical teaching, the physical healing side of his ministry, that could kill you.

00:08:56And it did kill a lot of people.

00:08:58And let's don't forget, it killed Dr. Freeman himself.

00:09:01When he died, he weighed less than 130 pounds, and he was over six feet tall.

00:09:08This was what was normally a big man, a large man, and he wasted away because he refused all

00:09:16medical treatment, all drugs, no doctors.

00:09:20He wouldn't even take some natural remedies that someone was bringing to his house and knocking

00:09:25him on the door and trying to give to him.

00:09:28And from what we know from the medical reports, even the bandages on his feet or his ankles

00:09:33were, you know, were barely changed.

00:09:36And you could argue, going down the path of Freeman's view on divine healing, that even

00:09:41to put a bandage on, wouldn't that be a confession that you have an issue that you say you don't

00:09:48have?

00:09:49I mean, I don't know anyone, John, including Hobart Freeman, that logically followed that

00:09:57teaching, which was his own teaching, to the end.

00:09:59He might have followed it better than other people did, and there's no glory in that because

00:10:04it was a false teaching, and he killed himself because of it.

00:10:07But even he didn't follow that completely.

00:10:09If your foot is healed, you don't need to wear a shoe with a lift in it because you don't

00:10:18need a lift.

00:10:18You know, I don't wear a shoe with a lift because both of my legs are even.

00:10:22The only person who would wear a shoe with a lift in it is someone who's not healed.

00:10:27And the only one who would wrap a bandage around their foot or ankle is someone who has the

00:10:31need of wrapping that, which means that you're not healed.

00:10:34So it was just, it was craziness.

00:10:36It was insanity coming and going.

00:10:39And I think that's where people need to come down and decide, am I going to wooden-headedly

00:10:47hold on to a verse in the Bible that I think is saying this, or am I just going to

00:10:53face the

00:10:54facts of reality?

00:10:55And the same thing can be said with demons and deliverance.

00:10:58So in the last few episodes, I've beat you to the point, and today you beat me to what

00:11:02I was going to build up to, and that is the fact that if you take a step back and

00:11:06you're

00:11:06not in this worldview, no matter which group it is, Branham's, Freemans, New Apostolic

00:11:12Reformation, Charismania, any of these groups, it becomes circular reasoning.

00:11:17Just like you said, you can't say that somebody's demon-possessed and also say that a Christian

00:11:23has protection from God and they can't be demon-possessed, but they do it.

00:11:27They actually say both, and where this comes from, we've mentioned it before, Branham learned

00:11:34from Bosworth, Bosworth learned from Dowie.

00:11:36Dowie had this problem where he kept getting exposed.

00:11:40People were dying by the dozens in his healing homes, and he had to have an explanation.

00:11:46Well, obviously, the demons came in and got them, you know, and whenever somebody got sick

00:11:51and they couldn't be healed, well, the demons, they're really fighting them.

00:11:54But it's the circular reasoning, if you're preaching a God of protection, you can't preach

00:11:59that they're unprotected.

00:12:02So what it did, in the end, was it created this worldview that was so far different from

00:12:09reality.

00:12:09Like you said, it's insanity, but they're so far out of touch with reality that they begin

00:12:14to think that everything negative that happens to them is because of a demon.

00:12:19Everything.

00:12:21And I hate to say it, but as somebody who has a lot of bad luck things happen, which

00:12:27I do, I can tell you with assurance that some of it, and maybe not all, but some of it

00:12:33comes

00:12:33from the fact that I do things too fast, I do things too quickly, and I attempt things

00:12:38that nobody else in their right mind would do.

00:12:41In other words, it's not demonic.

00:12:43It's not demonic.

00:12:45I will go work on something that I've never worked on before just to see if I can do it

00:12:51and also to save a heck of a lot of money.

00:12:54Well, sometimes I'll make mistakes because I've never done it before.

00:12:58Or, you know, some of these skilled things that you really need training for, I'll attempt

00:13:03it, and I'll get my little Google out and see, well, how does this other guy do it?

00:13:08Well, you start to have things happen to you, and you can't say that's a demon.

00:13:12You can say, that's John Collins' fault, right?

00:13:15Well, I'm one of these people that does that, but think about the people who don't.

00:13:19People who are just ordinary people, live their lives, go to church, go home, go to their

00:13:24job, and something happens at work.

00:13:28Maybe there's an accident at work, they drop something on their foot, their foot hurts.

00:13:32In this worldview, there are demons out everywhere in the world.

00:13:36So you walk to your office, well, there's demons in your office.

00:13:38There's demons in your office.

00:13:39Branham initiated this to a large scale because every meeting, every revival he would open

00:13:45up, he would say things on this order.

00:13:50Before I begin praying this prayer line, I'm going to take every spirit in this building

00:13:54under my control.

00:13:56Now, to the people who are sitting there, they're being told, this is comforting.

00:14:00This man has control of every spirit in the building.

00:14:02Be comfort, but A, you're being comforted by the human, not by the God, and B, the flip

00:14:10side of that is this is a building filled with demons, man.

00:14:13When we walked in it, they were filled with demons.

00:14:16Well, what happens when you go into a building and that man is not in the building?

00:14:20Now you're sitting there thinking, oh my gosh, I wish that man was here so that man can

00:14:24protect me.

00:14:25And the man can't be everywhere to protect you.

00:14:27But you've been trained to believe that the human is your protection, not God.

00:14:31So it created this worldview where deliverance became, basically, it became this fear-based

00:14:38worldview where you must live in fear because these demons will get you.

00:14:42We talked a few weeks ago about the passage, John, in Matthew 18, binding and loosing.

00:14:47And I think we've probably all been in a service where a minister will do just what you said

00:14:52William Branham would do.

00:14:53I've been in my share of these where a minister before, you know, a charismatic minister, including

00:14:58Dr. Freeman, I've heard him do it.

00:15:00And I've heard people, you know, down to this day do it.

00:15:03These ministers stand up and they pray these audacious prayers that it's impossible for that

00:15:12prayer to be answered.

00:15:14It's just impossible.

00:15:16It's a megalomaniac type of prayer.

00:15:19It's not a humble prayer.

00:15:20Lord, you know, be with me as I, as I try to teach your word, that'd be a Christian prayer

00:15:26to pray.

00:15:27Lord, please help me and please be with me.

00:15:30But the ministers who stand up and say, I bind every spirit in this meeting.

00:15:36You don't, you don't have the power to do that.

00:15:40Or the minister who says, Lord, I'm praying, he'll even address God and say, Lord, I'm praying

00:15:48that every idle fault and every person's mind will be subdued and that every mind will be

00:15:55perfectly attuned to the word of God.

00:15:57In a perfect world, that would be wonderful.

00:16:00But, you know, that doesn't happen.

00:16:02People's thoughts just fire off, you know, left and right during a minister's message.

00:16:09Even the most faithful follower, you think you have the power to bring his thoughts into

00:16:18subjection, to listen to what you have to say?

00:16:21Oh, my word.

00:16:23Yeah.

00:16:23And I, I don't know and did not know what William Branham's teachings and beliefs were

00:16:31when it came to demons and deliverance.

00:16:34But let's remind ourselves, John, that when Hobart, he got this, he got, he received his

00:16:40charismatic experience in March of 1966.

00:16:45And then in June of the same year, he went down to Dallas, Texas to Gordon Lindsay's get

00:16:52together.

00:16:52It was a two week conference.

00:16:54And what was it?

00:16:55It was a deliverance conference.

00:16:58We've, we put up the advertisements that you have on your website for that very two week

00:17:05experience.

00:17:06It was a, it wasn't a healing.

00:17:08I mean, they talked about healing for sure.

00:17:10And faith and prophecy and the end times and everything, but how it was marketed was this

00:17:19is a deliverance seminar or deliverance conference.

00:17:24And in the small print below the advertisement, they said, they're going to teach you how to

00:17:31cast out devils.

00:17:32And I always laugh over that because the new Testament Greek clearly distinguishes between

00:17:41devil.

00:17:42There's only one of those and it clearly distinguishes in the Greek.

00:17:46The King James, unfortunately doesn't, but the Greek, your Greek new Testament does.

00:17:51There is only one devil.

00:17:53There's only one Satan.

00:17:55He's the accuser.

00:17:56He's the adversary.

00:17:57And there's another Greek word used for demons and there are many of them.

00:18:02So when I even see that in someone who's going to be my teacher on demons and deliverance,

00:18:10and you don't even know that there's no such thing as casting out devils.

00:18:16There is such a thing as casting out demons, but there's no such thing as casting out devils.

00:18:22And you're going to be the teacher of that topic.

00:18:24You know, I, I think I'll pass on sitting in on your teaching there.

00:18:29I mean, that's just elementary stuff there.

00:18:32I didn't know how much of this Hobart got from Gordon Lindsay, how much he got from Branham,

00:18:38but I know there was just a whole lot going on in the 1960s and there still is today,

00:18:44unfortunately, 50 years later when it comes to deliverance.

00:18:48And look, John, I know I get accused occasionally, um, of not believing in divine supernatural healing,

00:18:54but I do believe in divine supernatural healing.

00:18:59Divine healing means a supernatural healing means from God, supernatural divine healing,

00:19:06not a, not a sore back, not a headache, not a toe ache.

00:19:10I don't believe in any of that stuff, but I mean, someone who really has a need.

00:19:13I do believe in divine and supernatural healing and I wish I'm not opposed to it at all.

00:19:20I'm opposed to all of the nonsense and counterfeit around the real thing.

00:19:25I wish we could see a lot more of it.

00:19:29I wish I had the power.

00:19:32I mean, that would be wonderful.

00:19:33I'm not, I'm not opposed to the power of God healing people at all.

00:19:39I wish I had the power where I could go, go around and lay hands on blind people and deaf

00:19:46people and dumb people and, and see miracles happen, you know, but I don't.

00:19:52And I would be the first to say, I don't have that power.

00:19:56And I haven't met anybody yet who has that power.

00:20:01Um, and I was talking with someone about this the other day and the same would be true with

00:20:05casting out demons.

00:20:06I wish I could just walk into a crazy house and say, all of you are set free in Jesus

00:20:13name

00:20:14and they become hair combed, clean shaven.

00:20:17Now they can go out and get a job, hold down a job and go rent an apartment.

00:20:21I don't have the power to do that.

00:20:23I don't have the authority to do that.

00:20:25And again, I wish I did, or if I didn't, I wish you did, or if you didn't, I wish

00:20:31someone

00:20:31did.

00:20:32I would love to see people helped, but I was talking with someone the other day about

00:20:36this and I said, you know, we've heard for all these years, the power that all these ministers

00:20:43have, I have gifts of healing.

00:20:45It only operates in my left hand.

00:20:46It begins to tingle when the gifts of healing are in operation.

00:20:50And I'm not saying someone doesn't have gifts of healing in their hand.

00:20:53We just heard so much about that.

00:20:57And I was talking with someone.

00:20:59I said, can you imagine if any of us did have that power?

00:21:04I mean, I don't think I could keep my head on straight.

00:21:08I don't think I could keep my feet on the ground.

00:21:10I said, really?

00:21:11We talk about all this stuff, but let's try to slow down and pretend that it is true.

00:21:18And where does that lead us?

00:21:20Where do we end up?

00:21:21If you or I, John, had the power, we could go around and raise dead people.

00:21:27I mean, dead people, doorknob dead people, not people who have, you know, closed their

00:21:35eyes and stopped breathing for 10 seconds.

00:21:37I mean, Lazarus dead people.

00:21:39If we could raise the dead and open blind eyes, what do you think that would do to our

00:21:45own psyche?

00:21:46I don't know.

00:21:47I don't know of any humans that could handle that.

00:21:49They would go off the deep end.

00:21:52So, Paul and the early apostles, they did see these miracles happen in their lives, and

00:21:59they evidently continue to be very grounded, mature men of God.

00:22:06I don't think I could handle that in my life, and I don't know that other people out there

00:22:11could handle in their life.

00:22:12And I'll say one other thing, and then I'll shut up and let you talk.

00:22:16I'm as aware of the verses in the Bible, guys out there in YouTube land, as the next

00:22:21person is.

00:22:22I'm aware of what Mark 11, 23 says.

00:22:25Whosoever shall say to this mountain, be thou removed, and be thou cast into the sea, and

00:22:30shall not doubt in his heart, but shall believe that those things that he saith will come to

00:22:34pass.

00:22:35He can have whatsoever he saith.

00:22:37I know that's in the Bible.

00:22:39I'm very aware of that verse.

00:22:40And that's where they get the spoken word, because saith, saith, saith keeps appearing.

00:22:47All you have to say is you can speak to this mountain.

00:22:51And Hobart used to say, now there was a mountain, a real literal mountain in the immediate vicinity.

00:22:58And he probably looked at the apostles and said, whoever shall say to this mountain, uproot

00:23:06itself and throw itself into the sea.

00:23:09That is in the Bible.

00:23:11That is a verse in the Bible.

00:23:13It is Mark 11, 23, followed by Mark 11, 24.

00:23:16That were the hallmark of Kenneth Hagin's ministry that Hobart borrowed slash stole from

00:23:24Hagin and made it appear like that was his ministry and those were his verses.

00:23:29I'm aware of that verse.

00:23:31I know what it says.

00:23:33And I know more than you want to tamper with God's word and make it say or mean something

00:23:38that it doesn't.

00:23:40But having said all of that, I think we also hand in hand with reading and studying God's

00:23:49word and being a lover of scripture.

00:23:52I'm a lover and a reader of God's word, and I want to obey it and want to believe it.

00:23:58And I don't want to try to make it say something that it doesn't really say.

00:24:03But having said all of that, my question to people is, have you ever removed a mountain

00:24:12and thrown it into the sea with your spoken word?

00:24:16Well, you know, no, I haven't.

00:24:18But it says that.

00:24:19I know it says that.

00:24:20But we're agreed on that.

00:24:22Those are the literal words.

00:24:24But have you ever done that?

00:24:25And then my follow up question is, do you know anyone in the history of the universe who's

00:24:31ever done that?

00:24:32And of course, we all say, well, no, then I would say, well, then we should maybe slow

00:24:37down for just a moment.

00:24:39We're not tampering with God's word.

00:24:41But if God's word says that, that we can just tell a mountain to move, then why hasn't anyone

00:24:46ever done it?

00:24:47Why has God put something in the Bible that no one has ever done because it's not possible

00:24:52to do?

00:24:53Then where I would go with that, John, I would say, then maybe my understanding of the passage

00:25:00is not accurate.

00:25:02I mean, you have to end up there.

00:25:05And people are so afraid to question anything in the Bible.

00:25:09But I don't think that's doubting God or questioning God.

00:25:14It's looking at a passage, Mark 11, 23.

00:25:17All you have to do is say, and don't doubt, say it and the mountain will move.

00:25:22It's looking at the passage.

00:25:23But then it's saying, all right, I also want to look at reality.

00:25:26Has anyone ever done that?

00:25:29And then if you fall back on the excuse, well, no one's done it because everyone is doubted

00:25:35in their heart.

00:25:36Oh, come on.

00:25:37You can't have your cake and eat it, too.

00:25:39You know, you're trying to find a way to make that verse happen.

00:25:44But yet you're saying, but no, it never has and never can because we're all doubters.

00:25:49Then why would Jesus even have said that?

00:25:51My argument would be the verse probably means something other than what we think it means.

00:25:56And not just something other than we think it means.

00:25:59Think of the levels of complexity.

00:26:02There are also aspects of the culture that was writing the passage.

00:26:07It's basically an understanding that we have an understanding of what they wrote, but also

00:26:12they had an understanding of the worldview as they could see it.

00:26:16And the best example that I can give for this, if you read Leviticus chapter 14, I think it

00:26:22is, it talks about whenever a house has leprosy.

00:26:27And that was their understanding.

00:26:28The house has leprosy.

00:26:29They put stones together.

00:26:31And if it develops leprosy, you call the priest and he prays for the leprosy.

00:26:36And if that doesn't work, basically what it's telling you and teaching you is how to remove

00:26:40mold from your hut.

00:26:42But that's really all it was.

00:26:43But in their worldview, that was leprosy.

00:26:45And leprosy in that worldview was also a demon.

00:26:48That's why the priest would have to pray for it.

00:26:50So in their worldview and their understanding, that's how it was.

00:26:54Now, one of the biggest problems that infected this movement, the movement that Hobart came

00:27:01from, Branham came from, all of this was infected by Christian fundamentalism.

00:27:08When you read a passage, it is explicitly stated exactly, and you can't think outside the box

00:27:14with culture, genre, all of the different attributes of the text.

00:27:17It must be as we understand it in today's language, in today's English, which doesn't

00:27:22work with leprosy of your rocks of your hut.

00:27:26So whenever I mention things like in that worldview, they would also pray for a person with infection

00:27:33and they would say, this person with infection has a demon, let's cast out the demon.

00:27:37In my worldview, God has the understanding to know, well, they're talking about something

00:27:43that is an infection, but God still has the power to heal it.

00:27:47In the fundamentalist worldview, you can't think this way.

00:27:51You must think it must be a demon, so therefore it must be cleansed.

00:27:54And take the rock situation, the leprosy of the rock.

00:28:00We understand how bacteria works and bacterial infections work today because in a microscope,

00:28:06we can see the little bugs going around and we know how to kill the little bugs and wipe

00:28:10out, eradicate the bacteria.

00:28:12Think of carpenter ants.

00:28:15I've got a spot in my garage that I'm having to repair because carpenter ants got into it.

00:28:20Well, I can see the ants.

00:28:22I see them moving around and I'm not going to say that my garage has leprosy.

00:28:26I'm not going to say that there's a demon in my garage.

00:28:29But what this worldview did was it trained people to believe that every single thing must

00:28:34be taken literally and it must literally be a demon.

00:28:38That was the two coordination, the two effect proposition that they were pushing.

00:28:44And what happened was people started to fear these things that were demons and started

00:28:48to reject any science.

00:28:51So if science had a microscope and looked and saw the bugs and we have this medicine that

00:28:56can literally eradicate those bugs, like I could get ant spray and spray my, I will get

00:29:02ant spray, spray my garage.

00:29:04I'll kill the ants.

00:29:05I know how to kill it because I see them.

00:29:07Well, Dowie was having people reject medical science.

00:29:11They're all wrong.

00:29:12That's all wrong.

00:29:13It is a demon.

00:29:14And you therefore cannot take medicine.

00:29:16Fast forward to the latter rain.

00:29:18They couldn't do it because people were being sued by the, put into jail by the government

00:29:23for doing this.

00:29:24People were dying over it.

00:29:25Well, then Hobart tried to revert it back to Dowie's doctrine.

00:29:28You must get rid of the medicine.

00:29:30So in his worldview, he rejected the idea that we can see the bacteria.

00:29:34We can kill the bacteria.

00:29:36If it's a cancer, we know the virus.

00:29:38We can see the virus growing and the cell is regenerating.

00:29:42But he had to reject all of that and say that science is basically of the devil.

00:29:47You having said that, I'm going to go down another path that I wasn't going to go down,

00:29:51John, but still talking about deliverance.

00:29:55And I don't know all that you have heard in your whole Christian life when it comes to

00:30:00demons and deliverance.

00:30:02I bet it's going to be very similar to what I have heard in my life concerning demons and

00:30:07deliverance.

00:30:08We've talked so much about healing, but now we are going to take this new big task ahead

00:30:15of us and try to understand Hobart Freeman's views on demons and deliverance.

00:30:19And, you know, we're, we are, we're wading into the weeds and the weeds are very tall.

00:30:26Whenever we begin discussing this, it's just a fascinating subject.

00:30:32We're not going to get very far, but let me just say for people listening, we will continue

00:30:37to discuss this over the upcoming weeks.

00:30:41I have frequently, John, been asked because we've talked probably enough about divine healing,

00:30:48but I have frequently been asked, Jenna, when are you going to talk about deliverance?

00:30:52Because I still have so many questions and, you know, and there's one sister in particular.

00:30:57So here we are today, dear sister, we are talking about it.

00:31:01But there are a lot of people that have asked me, when are you going to talk about that?

00:31:04So what that tells me, John, is that here 40 years later, maybe they are okay on the healing

00:31:11issue.

00:31:11Maybe they wear glasses, they take ibuprofen, they go to the doctor.

00:31:18They're okay in that area.

00:31:19And I think a lot of them are, they saw me going without eyeglasses for 15 years.

00:31:26My eyes are no better.

00:31:28They're actually worse.

00:31:29And so they went and got some glasses.

00:31:31So they're okay in that area.

00:31:33This area of mental health, this area of mental health, this is the demonic deliverance area.

00:31:41They're not thriving.

00:31:43They're not healthy in that area.

00:31:44And it's because they have all of these carryovers of what Dr. Freeman has said.

00:31:50And what Dr. Freeman said about these things resonates in their ears so loudly that they

00:31:57just cannot be free from that.

00:32:02I have a clip in mind, having just said that, that we're going to listen to from one of his

00:32:09tapes in the book of Acts, which was done a long time ago, if my memory serves me correctly,

00:32:171974.

00:32:18But I think that the biggest fear, if not the biggest, one of the biggest fears that the

00:32:27followers of Freeman still carry with them today is this false sense of that man's status,

00:32:36of who he was.

00:32:38He presented himself as God's spokesman, as all of these ministers have.

00:32:44I am the mouthpiece of God.

00:32:48And when these ministers stand up in the pulpit, then it's almost like the Roman Catholic Pope,

00:32:58when he is speaking, as the Catholics say, ex cathedra, he is the mouthpiece of God and

00:33:04he cannot err.

00:33:05When I stand up and preach or teach, I am not the mouthpiece of God.

00:33:13I'm my own mouthpiece.

00:33:15I am trying to accurately teach what I think the text has said, but these ministers went far

00:33:21beyond that.

00:33:22And they created in the minds of their followers this fear to criticize anything about them

00:33:31because as soon as they stood in the pulpit, they were under the anointing and they were

00:33:37God's minister, prophet, teacher, pastor, apostle, whatever, but they were God's spokesmen.

00:33:42And so consequently, if they are God's spokesmen, then to criticize them is to criticize God and

00:33:52to criticize God would be to place oneself in the position of maybe receiving some kind of

00:34:00divine judgment.

00:34:01And that is exactly the path the ministers went down and exactly the path they wanted the

00:34:07people's minds to go down.

00:34:09So there is a message you can find on YouTube.

00:34:14It was in the book of Acts series on chapter 17.

00:34:18It was entitled proving and practicing the word very early on in this message.

00:34:25You could start at the 13 minute mark and listen for a minute and 12 seconds.

00:34:34And we need to be admonished about this, that there's no such thing as having the right

00:34:40to my opinion, as most Christians feel they have in politics or religion.

00:34:46You know, they say, well, yes, he's standing in the pulpit, but that's his opinion.

00:34:50I've got a right to mine.

00:34:52I wish you'd look at Matthew 10, 40 and see what Jesus has to say about his word and his

00:34:58messenger that he sends with the word.

00:35:01This isn't setting the messenger up to be something that isn't, but it's certainly a

00:35:05warning that we need to be careful how we hear.

00:35:10Verse 40, he that receiveth you receiveth me.

00:35:17I wanted you to see it, friends.

00:35:21I know you've heard it.

00:35:22I'm sure you've read it.

00:35:23But I wanted you to see that he is equating his messenger with himself with respect to

00:35:31his message.

00:35:32To receive the messenger is to receive Christ.

00:35:37And God can't make it any plainer than he makes it here in Acts 10, 40, that to reject

00:35:43the messenger is to reject Jesus Christ.

00:35:46And so what Hobart does there is he is wanting to remind the people that and he goes back,

00:35:53I think, to Matthew 10 and verse 40, which actually is not talking to me or Hobart.

00:35:59That was a that was a passage in reference to the apostles when he sent them out.

00:36:04When he sent the apostles out, he said, whoever receives you receives me because he had

00:36:11specifically and personally commissioned them in the first few verses of Matthew 10.

00:36:16So when Hobart reads the Bible, John, or when he read the Bible, everything is talking to

00:36:22and about him.

00:36:24You know, he's he totally loses the context of what's being said and to whom it's being

00:36:29said, as you just said earlier, and what the context of that day and age and the generation.

00:36:35I mean, this is Jesus in his in his first coming physically, bodily on the earth, commissioning

00:36:43the 12 apostles with great authority.

00:36:46He said, you can go out and heal the sick and cleanse the lepers and raise the dead freely.

00:36:52You've received freely give.

00:36:54I commission you.

00:36:56I give you the authority and I give you the power to do that.

00:36:59And when they came back, they and the 70, they rejoiced that everything he said came to

00:37:04pass.

00:37:05They did have that power.

00:37:06Well, when we read that, that is a wonderful historical account that is not speaking to

00:37:12us.

00:37:13If you if you reject me when I stand up in the pulpit, you have not necessarily rejected

00:37:19God.

00:37:20You have only rejected God if what I said accurately represented God and you reject that.

00:37:27But you can reject me all day long and be fine in God's eyes.

00:37:31And, you know, that doesn't affect your standing with God at all has nothing to do with it

00:37:35at all.

00:37:36I would not be so pompous and arrogant as to think that.

00:37:41But these ministers were.

00:37:43So, you know, he said we need to be admonished that to receive Hobart Freeman is to receive

00:37:50Jesus Christ and to reject Hobart Freeman is to reject Jesus Christ.

00:37:55That is just horrible exegesis.

00:37:58That's horrible manipulation of the people.

00:38:01But what got me on this in the first place, Sean, was I think this is the biggest fear

00:38:06that so many of the followers that the ones who are still Freemanites, they definitely believe

00:38:12this.

00:38:12The ones who've listened to these podcasts and who've gone through the process of purging

00:38:20some of this Freeman ism craziness out of their life, that's still in the back of their

00:38:26mind because they tell me it's still back there.

00:38:29I just have this fear of rejecting or criticizing anything that Hobart taught.

00:38:37And I don't know who the fool was that first found Psalm 105 15 and began using it to beat

00:38:44the sheep over the head.

00:38:46Touch not mine anointed and do my prophets no harm.

00:38:48I don't know who the first fool was that found that, but that's a horrible thing to do.

00:38:54The shepherd is there to serve the sheep, not vice versa.

00:38:59Woe to the shepherds is what Ezekiel says that harm the sheep, not woe are the sheep because

00:39:05they don't exactly agree with what the minister has said.

00:39:09And you beat me to point number two.

00:39:14I've used the word sorcerer a few times, but that's really what these people are trying

00:39:18to portray themselves as.

00:39:20What it did when you create this worldview and you're up on stage and you're the one who

00:39:24understands this worldview, now everybody in the audience looks to you as the gatekeeper

00:39:29of this worldview.

00:39:30You're the one who you go through and you can't touch that person.

00:39:34Touch not God's anointed.

00:39:35That person becomes the, whether it's a prophet or apostle or whatever they call themselves,

00:39:41they basically become the sorcerer.

00:39:43And they're the ones step out on stage.

00:39:45I take every demon under here, under my power, under my control.

00:39:49And it's like if you're watching Lord of the Rings and the great wizard comes out and stretches

00:39:56forth his hands.

00:39:57That's what they're trying to do.

00:39:58They're trying to put on that stage act.

00:40:00Well, the problem is, again, once the sorcerer is out of the picture, now how are the people

00:40:06protected?

00:40:07And so what happened was there were enough people, and some of them ministers of churches,

00:40:13they wanted to understand, okay, well, how do I protect the people like you're protecting

00:40:18the people in these conventions?

00:40:20So they started holding these deliverance seminars, the one that you mentioned that Hobart

00:40:24went to.

00:40:25They tried to teach people how to become sorcerers.

00:40:28And what they were teaching, while, yes, the word deliver might be in the Bible, the

00:40:34way that they're doing it isn't, because they're putting the power in the human.

00:40:38It's not telling the people, pray to God, and you can do this in your house.

00:40:42You can go to your own home, and you can do exactly what I'm doing here.

00:40:45Just pray.

00:40:46It wasn't that.

00:40:47They wanted to bring people attracted to the stage act.

00:40:51So they wanted to train these ministers that they, too, can take people under the power

00:40:56and control, but they'll never step up to the level of the Grand Wizard.

00:41:00The Grand Wizard has it all, and therefore, you need to come to our convention and pay our

00:41:06money and learn how to do it.

00:41:07And you mentioned the word deliver.

00:41:09You said, yeah, the word deliver does occur.

00:41:12It absolutely does.

00:41:14You know, deliver us from evil, and the Greek probably means, it's probably a masculine ending

00:41:21to that, deliver us from the evil one.

00:41:23That's in the model prayer, in the Lord's Prayer in Matthew 10.

00:41:27Yeah, the word deliver appears a lot in the Bible, and the word deliverance appears a lot

00:41:32in the Bible.

00:41:33But what does that mean?

00:41:35You know, when you have come out of, or when you are a part of this whole healing, deliverance,

00:41:43movement, and revival, when you see that word deliverance, you have been programmed to think

00:41:50of nothing but demons.

00:41:52That's what you think of.

00:41:53You think, and when you see deliverance, you go, oh, that's a deliverance ministry.

00:41:57That's a laying on of hands and casting out demons.

00:41:59That's a deliverance ministry.

00:42:01Let me just show you.

00:42:03I'm going to show everyone an incredible occurrence of this in Dr. Freeman's ministry.

00:42:11And when I, I always want to include myself as a guilty party, because when I was 17 and

00:42:1818 and 19 and 20, I had been trained by Hobart, so I was a Freemanite.

00:42:24And so I saw things through his lens, not through my own.

00:42:31I didn't have the maturity, I didn't have the intelligence, I didn't have the training,

00:42:35I didn't have the schooling, you know, I didn't have all the things that you need in

00:42:39order to not fall in to a religious cult, such as was led by Dr. Freeman.

00:42:46And once I was able to get free from that, then when I read the Bible, I read it carefully

00:42:52and I read it critically.

00:42:54Critically, to read something critically doesn't mean to criticize it.

00:42:58Those are two entirely different words.

00:43:00To read something critically means you're reading it carefully, you're looking at the

00:43:06words, you're looking at the context, you are keeping in your mind the authorship, you're

00:43:14keeping in mind the readership, you're keeping in mind the date.

00:43:18That's all we mean when we say read critically.

00:43:21We don't mean read with criticism and criticize.

00:43:26We mean just pay attention to what you're reading.

00:43:30And now we do that.

00:43:33And I hope a lot of people from listening to these podcasts, yours and mine and yours with

00:43:39other people, John, and wherever they are learning this in their life, that they are learning,

00:43:43it's okay.

00:43:44God's not going to throw a lightning bolt at you because you're looking at a passage that

00:43:49you thought meant this and you're saying, I'm not so sure it means that maybe after you

00:43:55go through all of your study of that, you end up with your original position.

00:44:01So be it, you know, but maybe you don't, maybe you don't.

00:44:06And meanwhile, do you think God is angry with you because you're going to carefully look

00:44:13at a passage frontwards, backwards, inside, outside?

00:44:19No, he's not angry.

00:44:20And no, you're not going to be struck down with a lightning bolt because you do that.

00:44:24I don't think we should be critical or criticize the Bible, but we should carefully and critically

00:44:30study the text of scripture to make sure we know what's going on.

00:44:34So back to my illustration with Dr. Freeman, this actually comes, John, from not one of

00:44:42his pop sermons on, you know, four keys to divine healing, three steps to keeping your

00:44:49deliverance.

00:44:49You know, he just had a plethora of garbage messages like that, but this was actually in

00:44:55his so-called theological school that he was teaching there back in the glory barn days.

00:45:01This was in 1975 in the glory barn when he was teaching Old Testament survey.

00:45:08How can you go wrong in teaching just a survey class?

00:45:12Well, when you're a charismaniac like Hobart was, you can easily go wrong.

00:45:17And I've had other people say, well, you know, I'm not going to listen to any of Dr.

00:45:21Freeman's messages on faith and healing and deliverance.

00:45:25But I think he did okay when it came to his more theological studies.

00:45:30And I've told them, absolutely not.

00:45:33There is poison throughout.

00:45:36And right when you are listening to maybe something that is free from charismaniac deception,

00:45:45because he's talking about the authorship of an Old Testament book or the dating of that

00:45:52book, before you know it, he sees a word in that book, and then he just falls right off

00:46:01the slope into, in this case, talking about deliverance.

00:46:05So you're not going to believe it.

00:46:06But this is on a message in Old Testament survey where he was discussing Ezekiel and Obadiah.

00:46:15How can you go wrong talking about the little one chapter book of Obadiah?

00:46:20Actually, you have to go to the very end of the message, the 51 minute and 40 second mark.

00:46:26Let me read because he's on the last verse of Obadiah.

00:46:31So I've got Obadiah opened here.

00:46:33First of all, he read verse 17, upon Mount Zion shall be deliverance.

00:46:39Oh, no, there's that word.

00:46:42This is Obadiah, maybe eight or nine centuries before Christ is this prophecy.

00:46:48Mount Zion, probably speaking of Mount Zion, but you can always spiritualize that.

00:46:55And somehow that's the body of Christ.

00:46:56That's the church.

00:46:57Upon Mount Zion will be deliverance.

00:47:01And there will be holiness and the house of Jacob shall possess their possessions.

00:47:06And then when he gets down to verse 21, and saviors, which can also be translated deliverers,

00:47:16deliverers shall come upon Mount Zion to judge the Mount of Esau and the kingdom shall be the Lord's.

00:47:24There's the last verse in that little pre-exilic minor prophet Obadiah.

00:47:31Well, that's significant.

00:47:33Verse 21, that deliverers will come.

00:47:36And that speaks not just of deliverers for Israel, but these end time deliverance ministries and deliverance in the body

00:47:42of Christ.

00:47:43You see, there are various levels of spiritual truth.

00:47:47And the speaks of deliverance coming to the body of Christ, too.

00:47:51Just to show everyone, because you mentioned a few moments ago, John, that, well, the word deliverer does appear in

00:47:57the Bible.

00:47:59And I just want people to see when Hobart saw the word deliverance.

00:48:04I don't care if it's in Leviticus, 2 Chronicles, Obadiah, because his mind is just trained to think, casting out

00:48:14of demons.

00:48:16What did he just say?

00:48:17He said, now that's significant.

00:48:21That speaks Obadiah 21.

00:48:24You know, I just put a pistol to my head and just fired the trigger that anybody would be this

00:48:29horrible in the way they handle God's word.

00:48:33That speaks of these end time deliverance ministries, really, and deliverance in the body of Christ.

00:48:44It's talking about they're going to judge the Mount of Esau and Mount Zion.

00:48:51You see, there are various levels of spiritual truth.

00:48:55Oh, boy.

00:48:56Is that a wormhole that you never can crawl back out of?

00:49:00As soon as someone says that, that's just a catchphrase for I can make this mean anything I want it

00:49:05to mean.

00:49:06You see, there are various levels of spiritual truth.

00:49:10One level is what Obadiah said.

00:49:12And the other level is what Hobart wants to make it mean.

00:49:17And this speaks of deliverance coming to the body of Christ.

00:49:22You know, John, I know I'm kind of sounding harsh here, but that's just junk scholarship.

00:49:28That is junk scholarship that has nothing to do with Obadiah.

00:49:32There's not a single reputable Old Testament theologian, biblical scholar who would agree with that at all.

00:49:43Hobart would be on an island by himself.

00:49:45They would say that is not what Obadiah is talking about.

00:49:48That's not on the surface.

00:49:50Neither is that the deeper meaning of it.

00:49:52The deeper meaning is the same meaning that's on the surface.

00:49:56Whatever Obadiah said and meant by that, that's the meaning.

00:50:01What it meant, I always say, is what it means.

00:50:03What it meant is what it means.

00:50:05You can't read something back into that.

00:50:08But that's a classic example of Hobart thinking that every time he sees deliverance, you know, he doesn't think of

00:50:16deliverance from sin, which sometimes that's the context in which the word is.

00:50:22That's not it here.

00:50:23But he would never think of deliverance from sin because John 3.16, oh, that's just basic elementary Christianity.

00:50:30Everybody has that.

00:50:31We don't even care about deliverance from sin.

00:50:33We want deliverance from demons.

00:50:35Well, I would reverse that, John.

00:50:38I would say the biggest message is John 3.16.

00:50:41The biggest message is our deliverance from sin and the gift of eternal life we have received.

00:50:49But if Hobart sees that word deliverance, he does not want that to have anything to do with anything other

00:50:56than demon deliverance because that's the way his mind has been trained.

00:51:02And I've talked about this a few times in other podcast series, but there was a deep level of the

00:51:09occult that came into the latter rain movement.

00:51:12And we have strong evidence that shows that Branham was going to spiritualist camps, etc.

00:51:16So keep that thought.

00:51:19And now think of the way the occult handles this exact type of thing.

00:51:25Whenever you go to somebody for your healing in the occult, but picture going to, you know, I don't know

00:51:33what you call these people, the medium, the lady with the crystal ball, the one who can tell you your

00:51:37futures.

00:51:37Well, in that worldview, you go to the person because there is a special person that you have to go

00:51:44to for your healing or for your peering into the future.

00:51:48What it did was it created ways in which the person who has the power to heal you, the one

00:51:56who's throwing the tarot cards and throws out the healing card or whatever, you're going to that person because they

00:52:02can tie every single thing to the spirit world.

00:52:05And you go there and you may not have even known it was supposed to be a spiritual thing, but

00:52:10they'll tell you it was a spiritual thing.

00:52:12So you're depending on the gifted personalities who understand how the spirit world works, they know how to curse people,

00:52:21how to take a curse from people, they know how to basically manipulate the person who's sitting in the room

00:52:27with them.

00:52:29And everything that I just said there actually was my list of deliverance ministers, but they both fit exactly like

00:52:35this because that's what they did.

00:52:38They were taking the training that apparently some people had learned from going to these spiritualist camps.

00:52:44Well, I can do that in my ministry, too, and I can create a stage act and I can manipulate

00:52:48the people.

00:52:49The crowds can understand that I'm the all powerful.

00:52:52They can come to me for all of their diseases.

00:52:54Now, every dollar that they would be given a doctor, they'll be putting in my offering basket.

00:52:59That's how deceptive this was, and that's really what they created.

00:53:02And in the end, yes, there were probably people healed, but you can talk to a person who's going to

00:53:09these spiritualists for their healing.

00:53:11They'll tell you the same thing.

00:53:12Yeah, sometimes people got healed, but the battering average is pretty low.

00:53:17That's really the thing that's odd here.

00:53:19In both cases, the battering average is really, really low.

00:53:23And in the end, it comes out to this question, is it really of God?

00:53:28Because that doesn't seem like God would have such a low batting average.

00:53:33And more to the point, if you're borrowing this type of theology from spiritualists and from the occult, is it

00:53:41really a movement that's by God?

00:53:42And that's the question I've been asking forever.

00:53:45I can't really put my finger on anything that they're doing that even sounds remotely biblical, but they'll tell you

00:53:51that it is.

00:53:51And what's so interesting and ironic, John, is that Hobart had all these publications.

00:53:56This was his famous little tract on occult, oppression and bondage, how to be set free, and his famous little

00:54:04book, Angels of Light, that probes in.

00:54:08He had a fascination with the occult.

00:54:11We're going to talk about that later.

00:54:13We don't have time today.

00:54:14But it's ironic, after what you just said, that, yeah, he has books on these very topics because he delved

00:54:23into that deeply and heavily because he was interested and he thought that he would be able to help people

00:54:29from that.

00:54:30I know we're about out of time, John.

00:54:32I just want to close with one other verse that comes to mind.

00:54:34I wonder how many people out there in the charismatic listening audience know what 2 Timothy 1.7 says.

00:54:44A lot of people are going to know what 2 Timothy 1.7 says.

00:54:48Here's another case of we just looked at the word deliverance.

00:54:54When Hobart sees the word deliverance, then he just thinks deliverance ministries, and he forces that back into Obadiah.

00:55:00I feel so sorry for the poor prophet Obadiah.

00:55:03He forces this back into Obadiah, verse 21.

00:55:082 Timothy 1.7 says,

00:55:10For God has not given us a spirit of fear, but of power and of love and of a sound

00:55:15mind.

00:55:16God has not given us what?

00:55:18Well, again, here's Hobart Freeman.

00:55:21Every time he sees the word spirit, he says what to himself?

00:55:26Demon.

00:55:26And so this was a very popular verse and a popular misuse of it.

00:55:34Hobart said that fear is a demon, that if you are afraid, you have a demon.

00:55:42And you know what he would then say?

00:55:44That that's what the Bible says.

00:55:46And here's that cherry picking again.

00:55:49Well, we've got a verse that does say a spirit of fear.

00:55:53How many people could we read about from Abraham through Moses, through David, through Peter, through the apostle Paul, who

00:56:05said,

00:56:06I fear in 2 Corinthians, you know, lest I betroth you to Christ and someone has come and deceived you.

00:56:14How many men of God said, I fear in the Bible?

00:56:17Well, so let's make 2 and 2 equal 4.

00:56:21Then all those men had a demon because they feared.

00:56:25I don't think that's what Paul is saying in 2 Timothy 1, 7 when he says God has not given

00:56:30us a spirit.

00:56:31He's not saying that fear is a demon.

00:56:34He goes on to say, but of power and of love and of a sound mind.

00:56:37So is there a spirit called power and a spirit called love and a spirit called sound mind?

00:56:42No, it's obvious what Paul is saying is the Holy Spirit, which has been given to us, is not one

00:56:48that's going to lead us down a path of fear,

00:56:52but is one that will lead us with the fruit of the spirit and with these other things down these

00:56:58other paths with these other graces and benefits in our life.

00:57:02That's a classy example of someone woodenly reading a text and because they have a text and you say, well,

00:57:11you know, you can't overcome that, you know, it's that spirit of fear.

00:57:15So fear is a spirit.

00:57:16I don't think that's what Paul is saying at all there.

00:57:19And I just think we need to be very careful when we read scripture and make sure we read it,

00:57:26wanting to understand what it says and not hoping to find confirmation of a position or belief that we already

00:57:35hold.

00:57:35You know, for me, the biggest problem with the sorcerer type mentality, you're looking to a human instead of God,

00:57:42and therefore your trust is built up in that human.

00:57:45What about for the people who desperately needed healing and it did not happen?

00:57:51Now their worldview has crumbled before them and their view of God, because their view of God was through this

00:57:59person.

00:57:59Now their view of God is tainted.

00:58:01And I know a lot of people, I know there's a guy who contacts me frequently whose mother died and

00:58:09could have lived had she just got the medication.

00:58:12And in Branhamism, they didn't forbid you, but what they would do is they would ridicule the doctors and the

00:58:17medicine and the medical industry.

00:58:19And people would think, well, I must have perfect faith so that I can get healed without that.

00:58:24Otherwise, I've got lesser faith.

00:58:26That's the mentality that they give you.

00:58:28Well, what happens when it doesn't work?

00:58:31And I know people like this person that I'm referring to, they'll never want to set foot back in church

00:58:39unless something changes in their heart, because why would you?

00:58:42That was a false God.

00:58:43This thing that they're telling me is God, that's not God.

00:58:46My mother just died from it.

00:58:48That's what happens in this type of mentality.

00:58:50It is so damaging in so many different ways.

00:58:54It rips families apart.

00:58:55It's bad, and that's one of the things, one of the reasons why I get so excited when I want

00:59:01to talk about this topic, but I also get angry.

00:59:03And I think it comes out of my face.

00:59:06You can see me flush.

00:59:07I really get angry at people being manipulated because the people can't help it.

00:59:12People who are trapped in it, even some of the people who are preaching it, they can't help it because

00:59:17that's the worldview they've been trained with,

00:59:18and they're just going to repeat what they heard.

00:59:21It is so damaging, and I think it really just really needs to stop.

00:59:25So thank you for helping me do this.

00:59:27Well, I share your sentiments on that, John, and we will continue the next few weeks talking about, I guess

00:59:33we've got a new name for him now, Hobart Gypsy Freeman.

00:59:37Absolutely.

00:59:38Well, if you've enjoyed our show and you want more information, you can check us out on the web.

00:59:41You can find us at william-brannum.org.

00:59:43For more about the dark side of the New Apostolic Reformation, you can read Weaponized Religion, From Christian Identity to

00:59:49the NAR, available on Amazon, Kindle, and Audible.

01:00:42For more about the dark side of the New Apostolic Reformation, you can check us out on the web.

01:00:46Weaponized Religion, From Christian Identity to the NAR, available on Amazon, Kindle, and Audible.

Stage Deliverance: How Fear Replaced Faith | Chino Ross | Podcast Episode 666

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