- 2 hours ago
Protesting students clashed with police in Jharkhand as the recruitment agitation intensified, while the BJP accused the Congress of adopting double standards by criticising the handling of protests elsewhere but remaining silent on developments in the state.
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00:16good evening you're watching india first i'm gaurav sawan i want to get you the latest images
00:21that are coming in from jharkhand students despite heavy rains continue to protest
00:27outside the jharkhand state assembly in rachi they're demanding a cbi inquiry into the jharkhand public
00:34service commission examination paper leak and alleged alleged irregularities in multiple other
00:40examinations conducted in the state the images that you see on your television screen police
00:46are now trying to remove the students from outside the state assembly so there was a lathe charge in
00:51the afternoon there's a lathe charge that just took place the jharkhand assembly grau march of the
00:58students that saw massive support students in the afternoon they succeeded in reaching one security
01:04cordon after the other they broke multiple layers of barricades removed concertina wire braved police
01:12lattes they brave water cannons they dodged ear gas canisters that happened through the day in the
01:18evening right now even as we speak the police are trying to remove these students the protesters
01:24from outside the state assembly police say in the afternoon they didn't carry out any massive lathe
01:32charge they just waived lathe's in an effort to push back protesters who assembled in large numbers
01:37the students are protesting so they moved from the jaipal singh munda stadium to the jharkhand assembly
01:44so while majority of the students had moved back some students continued to stay outside the assembly
01:50saying we will protest here till the time the hayman soren government orders a cbi inquiry and cancels
01:58the papers they insist the protest will continue now police right now are saying we have to move the
02:05protesters because anti-social elements may come in they may try and use the students as a shield and
02:12target either the assembly or the security forces students must move and that is why students are
02:18forcibly being removed now the students want the jharkhand staff selection commission and the combined
02:27graduates level so that is the jssc cgl examination be cancelled devendranath mahato who's been fasting for
02:36nine days and counting he took part in the protest and he's alleged that the hayman soren government
02:42is using force to crush their voices the state government and representatives of the protesting
02:48students they've had three rounds of conversations in fact the last round lasted close to six hours
02:54yesterday so government insists hayman soren government insists 98 percent of the demands have been
03:01met students say the devil lies in the detail the two percent that have not been met are the main
03:09demands the cancellation of exams results and of course the cbi inquiry now l kyangte the former chairman
03:16of the jharkhand public services commission he's been taken into custody but protesters in the opposition
03:22the bjp both of them say that these protests and these these arrests are an eye wash the protests in
03:29jharkhand have led to a furious war of words between the ruling party and the opposition even at the
03:34center the bjp has accused the congress party of blatant double standards bjp mp sudanshu trivedi
03:40accused leader of opposition rahul gandhi of adopting double standards very vocal on protests in
03:45delhi in jantar mantar but absolutely silent on students being lati charge in jharkhand right now
03:51except one perfunctory condemnation now they're saying that students are also protesting in keralam keralam
03:58the congress is in power not a word from rahul gandhi the congress has hit right back leader of
04:03opposition in loksaba rahul gandhi he's criticized the lati charge of students in jharkhand he's up
04:09the ante in delhi demanding that union home minister amit shah put in his papers and clarify whether the
04:16home minister ordered the use of pellet guns in delhi protest or was he unaware parliamentary affairs
04:21minister kirin rijiju said home minister amit shah was willing to speak on the issue of students
04:26and the protest in delhi congress say that the opposition is not interested in the home minister's
04:32point of view they only want clarity on one aspect did the home minister order the firing or was he
04:38unaware of the use of pellet guns just a short while back moments ago union health minister jp
04:44nadda he accused the congress of repeatedly shifting goal posts and not wanting the house to function he
04:51said the home minister was willing to respond to every issue raised by the opposition but it was
04:56rahul gandhi and the congress party they were running away from a debate he accused the congress of being
05:02a hand in glove with the jharkhand government and the use of force against students and the use of
05:08concertina wires to block students in jargon we'll get you all sides of this big debate that's escalating but
05:15for the latest on ground i quickly want to cut across to ranchi shashi bhushan my colleague now joins me
05:23from ranchi with the latest uh shashi is samayi ki kya stiti hai kya chhatro ko puri tarah se hata
05:31kom who went there well ironically so does glutroshed cuba is without ki┼Яii kya kar╨╗╨╡╨┤h
05:36which is in your country
05:40will the highest pesticide
05:41and a half manipulцФ╗me
05:46to Damn which ginza World
05:55is I never Whatever
05:58but for those of us confianza
05:59Kiran
06:00Park
06:01The most important thing is that the churches that have left there, where will they go?
06:06Or where will they go?
06:07Or where will they go to the churches?
06:08Or where will they go to the churches?
06:11So in those cases, the churches that have come from different places, what will they go to the churches?
06:19Will they go back to their other villages or villages?
06:22Or will they stay here?
06:24Because the government has not heard about it.
06:31Where will they go to the churches?
06:33Is there no churches in the ecclesiastical scene?
06:36Or is there a church that has been separated?
06:38Yes, there are a church that has left there.
06:43And the police have not left there.
06:47But I am going to go to the church that the church is not left.
06:50But I am going to go to the church that the church has been found.
06:51The church that is where Yesipal Singh Munanda Stadium is.
06:53Which is where it was still for the 17th day.
06:57There is a church here where there is a church in the ecclesiastical scene.
07:00state
07:00that
07:01we have seen
07:05protest
07:06which
07:06the
07:09government
07:12has
07:13no
07:13demand
07:16that
07:17рджреЗрд╡рд┐рдВрджреНрд░ рдорд╣рддреЛ рд▓рдЧрд╛рддрд╛рд░ рдХрд░реЗрдВ
07:20рдЖрдк рд╡рд╛рд░рддрд╛ рдХрд╛ рджрд░ рдЦрддреНрдо рд╣реЛ рдЪреБрдХрд╛ рд╣реИ
07:22рдЕрдкрдХреЛ рдлреИрд╕реНрдЯрд╛ рд▓реЗрдирд╛ рд╣реИ
07:23рд╕рд░рдХрд╛рд░ 98%
07:25рдмрд╛рддреЗ рдорд╛рди рд▓реЗрдиреЗ рдХрд╛ рдХрдорд┐рдЯрдореЗрдВрдЯ рдХрд░ рд░рд╣реА рд╣реИ
07:28рдпрд╛ рдЙрд╕рдХреЛ рдмрддрд╛ рд░рд╣реА рд╣реИ рдмрдпрд╛рдиреЛрдВ рдХреЗ рдЬрдмреНрдХрд┐рдП
07:29рд▓реЗрдХрд┐рди рдЬреЛ 2% рдкрд░ рдорд╛рдорд▓рд╛
07:31рдЖрдардХрд╛ рд╣реИ рди рдпрд╣реА 2%
07:34рд╕рдмрд╕реЗ
07:58I want to get you the day's development.
08:04Wave after wave of students, they came to the Jharkhand Assembly.
08:09Their aim was to reach the assembly.
08:11Today, incidentally, is Chief Minister Hemant Sorain's birthday.
08:14The students say they only wanted one present, a CBI inquiry, cancellation of papers and results,
08:22so that the examination system can be cleansed.
08:26Take a look.
08:30Three protests, three different states.
08:33All witnessed outraged students taking to the streets and marching to institution of power.
08:42In Jharkhand, thousands of agitated students took to the streets,
08:47marched towards the state assembly, demanding action against alleged irregularities in recruitment examinations.
08:59As the protests intensified, the police resorted to tear gas to disperse the advancing students.
09:09But when protesters preached the final barricade and entered the Vidhan Sabha premises,
09:19the police resorted to use of water cannons and lati charge.
09:25It has been very difficult for the police officials to control them.
09:29And again, no violence, no aggression.
09:32All it was only this since they announced the little push to the barriers, barricades, and they started marching.
09:39Leader of opposition Rahul Gandhi has condemned the use of force on protesters in both Delhi and Ranchi,
09:46asserting that only dialogue can yield solutions.
09:50He condemned any violence against peacefully protesting students.
09:55It does not matter where it is happening.
09:57We condemn it.
09:57We are against it.
09:59We do not recommend it.
10:00We do not support it.
10:27But while the focus has remained on the national capital in Charkha,
10:31in Keralam, lower primary school teacher rank holders have been protesting outside the secretariat for over a month now.
10:40Frustrated over a prolonged wait for government appointments,
10:44the candidates symbolically ate grass outside the secretariat,
10:47accusing the government of ignoring their repeated pleas.
10:57The staff and the leaders have been protesting in the school.
11:04The leaders have been protesting in the school.
11:08They are evolutions.
11:11The leaders have been protesting in the school.
11:29Well, getting a government job is the dream of many.
11:32And they've worked hard day and night, studied hard day and night to get featured in that
11:36list.
11:37Despite that, their dream stands not fulfilled.
11:40And they're hoping that the government sitting inside the secretary right behind me will
11:44open their eyes and do something about it.
11:47At the heart of all three protests is a wider concern.
11:51India's youth struggling to secure a fair chance at education, employment and a stable
11:57future.
11:59Bureau Report, India Today.
12:08Meanwhile, big story coming in from Jharkhand, Devendranath Mahato, the head of the Jharkhand
12:16Lok Tantric Krantikari Morcha.
12:19The person who's been fasting for nine days and counting incidentally reports in Jharkhand
12:25say in the past nine days, he's lost more than 10 kgs of weight and he still is not eating
12:31food.
12:32His condition has deteriorated.
12:34He was a part of the protest.
12:36He was right outside the state assembly when we spoke to him earlier today.
12:41Devendranath Mahato has now been hospitalized.
12:45He's been taken to hospital.
12:47Now, Devendranath Mahato, despite losing 10 kgs, he was on fast for nine days.
12:52He joined the students' march towards the Jharkhand assembly.
12:57He's repeatedly criticized the Hemant Sorain government for not accepting their demands.
13:02In fact, when he marched, despite his ill health, he was holding a portrait of Shibu
13:09Sorain, former chief minister, founding chief minister of Jharkhand and Hemant Sorain's
13:15father, late father, holding his portrait as he carried out this march.
13:20He has now been hospitalized.
13:22And that's the photograph that we're just getting you from Rachi.
13:26So, he was at the Jaipal Singh Munda Stadium.
13:32That was the nerve center of Jharkhand's largest student-led movement in recent years.
13:39And Devendranath Mahato is 33 years old.
13:42He's a student leader.
13:44He is from Rachi.
13:45He, in fact, has been on hunger strike, indefinite hunger strike, since the 2nd of August.
13:51Key demands, cancellation of the recruitment examination and a CBI inquiry.
13:57He says the recruitment examination was compromised by a series of irregularities.
14:02So, he has just been hospitalized, as you see in these images.
14:07I'll get you much more on this story.
14:09There's more breaking news coming in.
14:11Union Health Minister Jharkhand, he's hit out.
14:15He's come out all guns blazing, targeting leader of opposition and senior congress leader Rahul Gandhi.
14:22J.P. Nadda says, one, Rahul Gandhi is misleading the people of the country.
14:27He insists.
14:28J.P. Nadda says, there was no firing at Jantar Mantar.
14:32Rahul Gandhi is misleading people.
14:35He's questioned the congress' double standards.
14:38He said, why is Rahul Gandhi quiet on what's happening in Jharkhand or what's happening in Kerala?
14:43He's avoiding discussions despite repeatedly demanding debate on these issues.
14:49The former BJP president and the health minister said, Rahul Gandhi is now repeatedly changing goalposts
14:57because the opposition does not want a debate.
15:00The home minister is willing to address every concern, every issue that's been raised by the opposition.
15:08In fact, J.P. Nadda is called Rahul Gandhi, an irresponsible opposition leader.
15:14He said, any responsible leader would discuss on the floor of the house,
15:18especially when the government is willing to answer all questions.
15:21I'll get you more of the story, but listen in to J.P. Nadda.
15:24J.P. Nadda says, Rahul Gandhi is changing goalposts in Jantar Mantar and the government of Jantar Mantar and the
15:39government of Jantar Mantar and the government of Jantar Mantar and the government of Jantar Mantar.
16:07The home minister of India does not have the courage to stand for what he has done.
16:15That is a fact. There is no other fact.
16:18And again, no one in the opposition is interested in his opinions.
16:22We don't care about his opinions.
16:24He can talk about his opinions to somebody else.
16:26The country wants to understand something else.
16:28The country is not interested in what Amit Shah thinks on education.
16:31The country is interested, did you, Mr. Amit Shah, shoot our children or not?
16:35And if you did, why?
16:39You heard the leader of opposition.
16:41The country is not interested in knowing the home minister's view on education.
16:45That's the leader of opposition.
16:47Health minister says Rahul Gandhi is repeatedly shifting goalposts.
16:51Initially, they wanted the home minister to come to the parliament, clarify his stand.
16:55Now that he is willing to do this, they are changing goalposts.
16:58Is there merit in the BJP accusing the Congress of blatant double standards on Delhi protests versus Jharkand protests and
17:04Kerala protests?
17:05Even as we speak, like we just said, students are being lati-charged in Jharkand.
17:09We don't see the Congress party, and this is the BJP's contention, protesting outside the chief minister's residence.
17:15They, in fact, are a part of the government in Jharkand.
17:18And J.P. Nada says the Congress was part of the party to the decision of concertina vayar.
17:24Barbed vayar is being put in the path of students who were demanding justice.
17:29The health minister also insists no guns were used as alleged by Rahul Gandhi.
17:34Let me get you all sides of this big story.
17:37Grijesh Kalappa is national spokesperson of the Congress Party, joins us on the broadcast.
17:41Dr. Guru Prakash Paswan is the national spokesperson of the BJP, joins us on the show.
17:45In a moment from now, we'll also be joined by our analyst Nikhil Jain, an advocate and Rajat Sethi, a
17:52political analyst.
17:53But Grijesh Kalappa married in the health minister, accusing Rahul Gandhi of spreading lies and changing the goalposts on student
18:00protests and the use of guns, as he said, in Delhi.
18:03No guns were fired in Delhi, says the health minister.
18:06Home minister is willing to speak. Rahul Gandhi is now shifting the goalposts, sir.
18:12See, Gaurav, I think, see, the first thing is that there has been a Hiroshima kind of nuclear bomb that
18:19has fallen on the BJP.
18:20So they want a similar kind of treatment to be meted out to political parties who have been, you know,
18:28raising this issue.
18:28So they are using air pilots and others on the opposition parties.
18:34See, first thing is, I think there has to be a sense of proportionality.
18:39And my media friends have completely lost this proportionality.
18:43And I don't blame them because several of them have been only asking Rahul Gandhi questions over the last 12
18:50years.
18:50They have not asked Modi ji a single question.
18:53And I think the public also has treated the media in a similar manner when they went to cover the
18:59CJP protests, right?
19:01Sir, now you are firing a pellet gun.
19:02Sir, fire at the government.
19:04Fire at the government.
19:05Why are you targeting the media?
19:06I mean, this is now firing a pellet gun so that it targets everybody.
19:09No, no.
19:10I mean, why media, sir?
19:12Why shoot the messenger?
19:13We are asking you.
19:15We are asking the government.
19:17My next question is to Guru Prakash Paswan on what Rahul Gandhi has raised.
19:22No, one minute, Gaurav.
19:24Why shoot the messenger as a question, which is a very clever question which the media has been asking only
19:30of the opposition over the last 12 years.
19:33But I don't think anybody is willing to buy that.
19:36But that's a different matter.
19:38That's only, you know, an introduction to what I'm going to say.
19:41First thing is that if there is any lack of earnestness on the part of the Jharkhand government, certainly there
19:50is much to speak about.
19:52But point is this, that Jharkhand government has done every single thing possible.
19:58First is they have had the chairman of the JPSC resign.
20:03All three other members of the JPSC have resigned.
20:06Now the examinations have been canceled, right?
20:09So, of course, if there is a protest which has the acid support of ABBP and the BJP and so
20:17on and so forth,
20:18only to show that, look, if you're making, if you're throwing stones at us, we can throw a couple of
20:24pebbles.
20:24It's really not going to cut ice.
20:27Because ultimately what has to be cured is to be cured right at the very genesis of where it all
20:34began.
20:34And that is, you know, with these 152 paper leaks and the people are appalled that the central government has
20:43been sleeping over these several 152 paper leaks.
20:47And this is the real issue.
20:48So long as the BJP thinks they can use the media to ask the, you know, other parties questions, this
20:54is not going to cut ice.
20:56Sir, we will ask questions of everybody.
20:59The Congress is in power with JMM in Jharkhand.
21:02You must be happy to take questions.
21:05You know, instead of targeting, instead of accusing the media.
21:09No, I don't understand.
21:11Sir, but I don't understand why target media.
21:15You know, this has become the latest fashion of sorts.
21:18Why are the students targeting the media?
21:21Why are the students targeting the media?
21:23I don't know.
21:23Again, you know, because the media has made a mockery of itself.
21:28I am sorry.
21:29The students are also targeting the media.
21:31I completely disagree with you.
21:34No, maybe so.
21:35I completely disagree with you.
21:37Exactly.
21:38But I agree with the students' view.
21:39You know, you know, those students need to be shown the correct perspective just by targeting the media.
21:46No, why don't you want to reach to the students, Gaurav?
21:48You know, but let me, hold on, hold on.
21:49Media is not the debate.
21:51Hold on, hold on, hold on, hold on.
21:53Brijesh Kalappa, you must learn to take questions of the Congress party.
21:56And, you know, because there you cannot say, don't ask the Congress, go ask the BJP.
22:01I will not ask the BJP about Jharkhand.
22:03Be very clear about that.
22:04I will ask Guru Prakash Paswan.
22:06No, but do ask them.
22:06No, no, no.
22:07You, you please understand, this protest that is happening, this protest that is happening
22:12is in Jharkhand and your government is a part of that Jharkhand establishment.
22:16So, please be happy to take that question instead of firing at the media.
22:20Media has become a very convenient scapegoat.
22:23Dr. Guru Prakash Paswan, Rahul Gandhi insists that from day one, their stance has been home
22:29minister has to clarify.
22:31Did he order the use of pellet guns or was he unaware?
22:34Either way, the Congress party claims he is either complicit or incompetent and must go.
22:41Before you also start attacking the media, sir, I am only the messenger.
22:45You may train your answer in guns at Brijesh Kalappa and hopefully not at the media.
22:54No, no, Gaurav ji, absolutely not.
22:56There is no question about that.
22:5851 years ago, emergency was imposed in the country and we are all very well aware and
23:02conscious of the fact that who imposed the emergency.
23:05So, who is with the media and who is against the media, who is with the constitution and
23:09who is against the constitution, it is amply and sufficiently clear.
23:11But the point which I am trying to make is this, that Jharkhand, Ranchi categorically is
23:17not only 1100 kilometers away from Delhi, but 1100 years away from Delhi.
23:23In the eyes of Mr. Rahul Gandhi, in the eyes of Mr. Akhle Shadav, you have to understand
23:27when Mr. Rahul Gandhi today was addressing media for 23 minutes, he did not give Jharkhand
23:33even 23 seconds, a historical protest is undergoing in Jharkhand, Ranchi, but not even 23 seconds.
23:40I want to ask Mr. Rahul Gandhi tonight, you have to understand, we have taken the accountability,
23:45we have taken an action, we have a long-term strategy with respect to paper league.
23:49I am sorry, I am a teacher myself, Gaurav ji, I have been a student myself, I have given
23:54public examination, I have appeared in law entrance examination, I have appeared in RGCNAT.
23:59But the question the Congress party leader of opposition asked you, sir, was on the use
24:03of pellet guns, on the use of guns, as he put it.
24:07So, you know, strictly on that topic, go on, sir.
24:12Gaurav ji, the Congress spokesperson spoke unbroken for seven minutes, I just request
24:17for two minutes, thank you so much, Gaurav ji.
24:18Yeah, so you have to understand that these students in the Jharkhand are not the priority
24:23of the Congress party.
24:24The students in the Jharkhand, because they are Adivasis, they will not speak about the
24:29Dalit students in Punjab, who have been demanding scholarship for the last three years.
24:32They will not speak about the girls from Kerala, who have been eating grass and protesting.
24:37If this is not selective amnesia, if this is not selective outreach, then what is?
24:42We want accountability, we want action.
24:44Prime Minister Modi has given a categorical response to it.
24:47We have a long-term strategy.
24:49We have constituted a committee headed by Mr. Nanda Nilekani.
24:52We have come out with rupees 10 crore fine.
24:54We have come out with 10 years of rigorous imprisonment as well.
24:57We want solution.
24:58We stand with students.
24:59It should showтАж
25:00But the point remains.
25:01Fair enough, sir, you've made your point.
25:02Mr. Rahul Gandhi is concerned.
25:04Dekhiye.
25:06Let me bring in Nikhil Jain.
25:07Let me bring in Nikhil Jain.
25:08Like our former president said.
25:09Let's keep this conversational because there'll be, you know, monologues on all sides.
25:14Nikhil Jain, students are being lati-charged in Jharkhand even as we speak.
25:17No dharna, no protest by Rahul Gandhi.
25:21Just one perfunctory sentence of condemnation is what the BJP says.
25:25And this, they claim, exposes Congress's double standards.
25:31Kaurav, it's rather rich as the BJP took me all these names when their government lati-charged,
25:37tear gas, sexually assaulted, you know, did all sorts of things with the students in Delhi.
25:42Now, Kaurav, I'm sure you raised as fierce questions to Mr. Guru Prakash and all the other
25:47BJP spokespersons when the Jantar Maktar protests were happening as you are to Mr. Kalapar today.
25:52But let's be real, most of your colleagues in the media outside the India Today network
25:56did not approve that.
25:58Many of your colleagues had actually boycotted the protests in the CJP.
26:02They were not showing a single protester.
26:04They were not sending out their reporters on the ground to cover what was happening in Jantar Maktar.
26:08Fortunately, thankfully, nicely, a lot of reporters from across news channels and alternate media
26:14are covering the Jantar Maktar protest.
26:16We do, I think all of us on the panel do stand with the demands of students of fair exam
26:21conduct.
26:21You know, for fair conduct of the examinations.
26:24But at the same time, let's be very real, so far as the law and order situation is concerned,
26:28when students wanted to march to the parliament in Delhi,
26:31or when these students in Jharkhand want to march to the assembly,
26:34no government can possibly allow them to actually enter into the premises.
26:38At one point, you will have to stop the students.
26:40The difference is, how do you stop them?
26:42Do you lati-charge them to disperse them?
26:44Do you use water cannons to disperse them?
26:46Or do you tear gas them and then lati-charge them into a corner to terrorize them?
26:51What we saw in Delhi was a case of students being terrorized.
26:54What we see in Jharkhand is a case of state action.
26:57I am not supporting the state action.
26:59My heart also bleeds when some student is lati-charge.
27:02But I am also being practical at the moment.
27:04Could we have allowed students into the assembly?
27:06I don't think so.
27:08Fair enough.
27:09Let me bring Rajat Sethi.
27:11Congress says, at least Rahul Gandhi condemned it.
27:13Rahul Gandhi claims, both the Prime Minister and the Home Minister
27:16did not come to the House initially,
27:19or even talk about student protests at Jantar Mantar.
27:23They are also saying, and you heard Nikhil also,
27:26no pellet guns used in Jharkhand.
27:27Look at the kind of differential in the force used in Delhi
27:31and the force that has been used in Jharkhand.
27:36See, it is bizarre that you are trying to equate one protest after the other
27:42without understanding that students are students
27:45and every student is individually going through so much of stress in their lives
27:50because of examination.
27:52Parties and this tutu mamay will carry on.
27:54The real problem here is the Jharkhand government,
27:57I have been hearing all of these spokespersons from the JMM party,
28:00they have been saying that 98% of the demands have been met.
28:03You know, it is a very interesting framing.
28:05As if they got 98 marks out of 100.
28:08Such a pitch perfect sort of ways of handling the protest.
28:11Where is 98% demand met?
28:13Here the JPSC chairman has been arrested, not sacked, arrested,
28:17because it is an issue of money trails involved.
28:20The ED has taken charge,
28:22and the students are saying that a CID,
28:24which is made up of the state bureaucracy,
28:26cannot independently investigate the JPSC,
28:30which is also headed by the state bureaucrats.
28:32This is the reason why you need to have external investigation.
28:36This is the principal demand.
28:37Where is the principal demand being met?
28:40The second demand has been that this is not just about this one paper leak.
28:44It is a systemic rot in that state.
28:47It has been going on since 2023 papers.
28:49Look at the issues.
28:51All that the other spokespersons had to do here
28:53was to listen to what the students have been saying.
28:56It is the backlog of 2023.
28:57It is the backlog of 2025.
28:59And it is a total, not just the leakage,
29:02it is the sellout of the entire examination system
29:05where the money trails have been identified.
29:07In Delhi, it was largely a moral question
29:10that the accountability has to be fixed.
29:12Here, the system is about money being taken to give away posts.
29:16You know, when I have served in several state governments, Gaurav,
29:19I can tell you there are rate cards.
29:21Rate cards of becoming a government nerds.
29:23Rate card of becoming a peon.
29:25Rate card of qualifying the JPSC.
29:27This is how state governments are operating.
29:30There is absolute zero governance.
29:32It is very easy to point gun at the central government
29:34where there is larger transparency.
29:36But there is systemic rot in the states
29:38which none of the parties want to address it head on.
29:40Rajesh Kalappa clearly does not agree with you.
29:4298% marks, 99% marks.
29:44This kind of shoddy argument should be given.
29:46Let me ask him to wear his legal hat.
29:48He is a spokesperson but he is also a lawyer.
29:51Rajesh Kalappa, wear your legal hat.
29:53Look at the situation in Jharkhand
29:55where your government is in power.
29:57And are those students getting justice?
30:00In fact, when you look at those protests,
30:02there are several students who come to the protests
30:04with their books, with their copies
30:06because they are studying even now in solidarity.
30:10Shouldn't they get justice?
30:12You know, Rajat pointed out,
30:13CID cannot do that impartial probe
30:15against their own officials.
30:17If there is nothing wrong,
30:18why not let there be a CBI probe, sir?
30:22The problem with the CBI probe, Gaurav,
30:24is that there were 209 PMLA cases
30:29in 2013-2014 that increased to 981.
30:34And who has been responsible for that?
30:37The ED.
30:38And who have been the primary victims of all of this?
30:41It has always been members of the opposition parties.
30:43So from 203 to 981 in 2020-2021.
30:48So what does it tell you about
30:50how the agencies of the central government
30:52will behave first?
30:53Second, of the 72 CBI cases
30:56against politicians, 43,
30:59that is most of them are from the opposition.
31:02Now you tell me,
31:03does anybody believe that the opposition parties
31:06will not be targeted by the CBI?
31:08First is that when the government
31:10has taken serious action
31:12against not just the chairman,
31:16but other members of the JPR,
31:18the Public Service Commission, right,
31:20has also cancelled the entire examination.
31:25Now, why is it that the students
31:27are asking for one specific thing?
31:30This is on the egging on
31:31of the ABVP and of the local BJP cadre, right?
31:36So obviously, they didn't say that
31:37this major demand has not been kept.
31:40And for what reason?
31:42Him and Soren went to jail
31:43in the first count
31:45and then came back.
31:46Who was responsible for it?
31:48You think a man is so foolish
31:50that he is going to fall into
31:51the same trap repeatedly
31:53that has been set by the BJP?
31:55So he will not order a CBI probe
31:57is the indication that you give.
31:59But the points that you raise,
32:00Guru Prakash Paasand,
32:01you want to quickly respond
32:02that, you know,
32:04a caged parrot
32:05will only do the master's bidding
32:07is British Kalappa's point.
32:12So I am glad you used that phrase,
32:14Gaurav Ji,
32:14because the caged parrot phrase
32:16was used during the Congress government.
32:18And second thing,
32:19which we must not ignore,
32:21that there is an organized syndicate
32:23which is working.
32:23You would very well remember
32:25that Mr. Lalu Yadav,
32:26another very important ally
32:27of India Alliance,
32:28is out of bail
32:29for a similar allegation.
32:31A case which has been proved
32:32in the rouse of a new court.
32:33Land for job scam.
32:35A similar type of a scam
32:37is brewing in Jharkhand.
32:38When the JPSC member
32:39and the chairperson,
32:40they were arrested,
32:42it is because of precisely this,
32:43that the rate card
32:44which was mentioned,
32:45that jobs were being handed
32:46in exchange of money,
32:48in exchange of favor.
32:49So I think it goes beyond
32:51just symbolic paper leak.
32:52It is more than paper leak.
32:53It is an organized syndicate,
32:55Congress party,
32:56Rastri Jhendad,
32:57Jharkhand,
32:58this is something that is ruining
33:00the future of our children
33:01almost across the country.
33:03One would expect
33:04the entire nation
33:04to come together
33:05and perhaps towards the end
33:06I would like all of you
33:07to comment on that.
33:08But go ahead,
33:08complete your point, sir.
33:10Because it is bizarre
33:11that our country,
33:13our examination system
33:14leaks like a sieve.
33:16As the Prime Minister said,
33:17this is sin.
33:18But this needs to be sorted out.
33:20Complete your point, sir.
33:24See, like I said,
33:25Gauravji,
33:26I am a student myself.
33:27I am with the students
33:29all my day
33:29because I am a professor of law.
33:30But we have to understand
33:31that we need
33:32a long-term solution,
33:33not a shoot-and-shoot methodology
33:35as being taken
33:35by the Congress party.
33:36We need to have conversation.
33:38We need to have a discussion.
33:39Let's sit on the table
33:40and discuss
33:40what is our strategy.
33:42We have come out with a law.
33:43We have come out
33:43with a committee.
33:44Contribute towards that.
33:45Instead of that,
33:46you are being selective.
33:47This is nothing,
33:48Gauravji,
33:48but a textbook case
33:49of selective outrage
33:50and selective amnesia.
33:52This is discriminating student.
33:54Why?
33:54Because Jharkand has tribal students.
33:56Why?
33:56Because Punjab has Dalit students.
33:58And because you are
33:58a feudal organization,
33:59you will not speak
34:00on behalf of Dalit students.
34:01You will not speak
34:02on behalf of tribal students.
34:03You will not speak
34:04on behalf of women,
34:06girl students protesting
34:07in Kerala,
34:08eating grass.
34:09You have to understand.
34:10The matter is very deep.
34:12And the Congress party
34:13and the CEO of Congress party,
34:14I am deeply appalled.
34:16I am shocked.
34:18That's a serious allegation.
34:20Nikhil, before I come to you,
34:21Mr. Kalappa,
34:23would you want to respond
34:24to a very serious allegation
34:26leveled by Guru Prakash Paswan?
34:28No, I think he doesn't
34:29read the national newspapers.
34:31We have had a Dalit
34:32as the president
34:32of the Congress party
34:33for over three years now.
34:35So, I don't think
34:36Mr. Paswan is aware
34:37of what is happening in Delhi.
34:38He is perhaps only
34:39confined to Jharkand.
34:41So, and the second part is
34:42that as far as
34:44the seriousness
34:45of the BJP
34:46and the central leadership,
34:48you know,
34:48the chief architect
34:50of the 2024,
34:53you know,
34:54paper leak scandal
34:55got a clean shit
34:56from the CBI, right?
34:58And on that very day,
35:01the extremely strong measures
35:02were announced by Modiji, right?
35:05So, I think
35:06all these are extremely laughable,
35:09but the point is this,
35:11that as far as the students
35:12of Jharkand are concerned,
35:14our earnestness
35:15has been demonstrated
35:17and more than unequivocally
35:19demonstrated.
35:20I don't think
35:21much more...
35:22Sir, and Keralam,
35:23and Keralam where
35:24students are eating grass
35:25symbolically
35:26to send across a message.
35:28There's a Congress
35:28government in power,
35:29but I'll get,
35:30come to you to respond to that.
35:31But Dr. Paswan wants
35:32to respond to you.
35:33Go ahead, sir.
35:36No, no, no.
35:37Our dear Congress
35:38party spokesperson
35:39mentioned about
35:41national president
35:42being a Dalit.
35:42I think all of us
35:43are aware of the fact
35:44that what's happening
35:45in Punjab,
35:45a former chief minister
35:47who's also a Dalit,
35:48he's being tortured
35:48by our own party leaders.
35:50What is happening
35:51in Haryana?
35:52By torture
35:52by having made him
35:53chief minister?
35:54He has faced
35:54a similar fate.
35:55The history is there.
35:56I did not speak
35:57when you were speaking, sir.
35:58I did not speak
35:58when you were...
35:59Let's have the basic
35:59decency and grace.
36:00Thank you so much.
36:01The history is right
36:02with such examples.
36:03Dr. Ambedkar,
36:05Babu Jagjivan Ram,
36:06every single Dalit leader
36:08who tried to aspire,
36:09you insulted them.
36:11Sita Ram Kesari,
36:12TNG IA,
36:13every single Dalit leader,
36:14even today,
36:15Channi Ji in Punjab,
36:16Shalja Ji in Haryana,
36:18Rajesh Ram in Bihar,
36:19you have given them
36:20position,
36:21but you are insulting them.
36:22So Congress party
36:23today cannot speak
36:24on behalf
36:25of the marginalized.
36:26You have not
36:27went to Jharkand,
36:28you have not
36:28gone to Jharkand
36:29because it's an issue
36:30of tribal student.
36:31We remember
36:32when in the history
36:33of our country
36:33for the first time
36:35Adivasi ki beti
36:36reached the highest
36:37constitutional office,
36:38your leader of opposition,
36:39Adirajan Chaudhary,
36:40the kind of word
36:41he used
36:42for the first
36:43tribal woman president,
36:44we cannot,
36:44we cannot let you
36:46forgive and forget
36:47that the treatment
36:48that you have
36:49meted out
36:49to the Dalits,
36:50to the tribals
36:51and to the women
36:52in this country,
36:52you have no
36:53local standard,
36:53I am sorry,
36:54you have no moral
36:55authority
36:55when it comes
36:56to the issue
36:57of the marginalized
36:57section,
36:58you have zero
36:59reason to speak
37:00for them
37:00and the country
37:01today knows
37:02you will not speak
37:03for Jharkand.
37:04You will not speak
37:04for Jharkand.
37:05You will not speak
37:06for Jharkand.
37:06That is the truth.
37:08The point is this
37:09that even Mr.
37:10Hirman Soren
37:10is a tribal,
37:12right?
37:12And even Mr.
37:13Lalu Yadav is in jail,
37:14Lalu Yadav is out of mail,
37:15sir.
37:16Who is Lalu Yadav?
37:17Who is Lalu Yadav?
37:17Mentioning people's names
37:19and saying
37:19somebody didn't get
37:20a fair deal
37:21and all that,
37:22I think it's absurd.
37:23Nobody buys
37:24these kind of
37:25very fake arguments.
37:26You are a feudal organization.
37:26What is the treatment?
37:28You are a feudal organization.
37:29You are a feudal organization.
37:31Accept it.
37:32Anyway,
37:32he wants to continue
37:33to talk.
37:34Sir, give me a moment.
37:34Give me a moment.
37:35Give me a moment.
37:36Let me quickly bring in
37:37Nikhil Jain
37:37because there's also
37:38this comparison
37:39that's being drawn
37:40between protests
37:41and the way police
37:42handled the protests
37:43in Delhi
37:44and in Jharkhand.
37:45And Nikhil Jain,
37:46you want to respond,
37:47the protests in Jharkhand
37:49are peaceful.
37:50There's no abusive
37:51sloganeering.
37:52There is no stone pelting.
37:54There is no vandalization
37:55of police property.
37:56In fact,
37:56in Jharkhand,
37:57some of the pictures
37:58that we see
37:59protesters with books
38:01and copies
38:01reading,
38:02writing,
38:03still trying to
38:03make a career
38:04not knowing
38:05when that next
38:06exam will be held.
38:08Nobody is resorting
38:09to stone pelting
38:10and vandalism here,
38:11sir.
38:12Gaurav,
38:13let's remember
38:13that in the
38:14Jhantar Mantar protest,
38:15the student was sitting
38:16for an entire month
38:17before there came
38:18any incident of violence
38:19by the students
38:20or anybody involved
38:21with the protesters
38:22in any other manner.
38:23So far as students
38:24reading,
38:25so far as students
38:26holding books
38:26or copies of the
38:27constitution,
38:27these are all things
38:28that we saw
38:29in Jhantar Mantar as well.
38:30The only difference
38:31is that the protesters
38:32in Jharkhand
38:32are neither being
38:33verified by the media
38:34nor by the government
38:36against whom
38:36they are protesting.
38:37But the protesters
38:38in Jhantar Mantar
38:39were villainized
38:40by most of the
38:41television media,
38:42not including you
38:43or India Today,
38:43but most of the
38:44television media
38:45and also the government.
38:46They were called
38:47cockerel,
38:47they were called
38:48anti-nationals,
38:49they were targeted
38:49for being foreign funded
38:51and all sorts of
38:52allegations were made
38:53against them.
38:53Whatever violent actions
38:55that we've seen
38:55from the student
38:56or protesting side
38:57only happened
38:58as a response
38:59to the extreme
39:00violence in self-defense
39:01that happened
39:02on the 20th of July
39:03by the Delhi police
39:04and RAF
39:04and subsequently,
39:06number one.
39:06Number two,
39:06we've been holding
39:07Mr. Rahul Gandhi
39:08to account on this debate
39:09as we must.
39:10He is a politician,
39:11he should answer,
39:12Mr. Kalappa should answer,
39:13we should ask him questions
39:14at what are his views
39:15on Jharkhand protests
39:16and Kerala protests
39:17and all of that.
39:18Very well, wonderful.
39:19I want to ask Guru
39:20what are the views
39:22of my Prime Minister,
39:23Prime Minister Modi
39:24on the Petra River
39:24linking protest
39:25or the protest
39:26that happened in Uttarakhand
39:27or the other protests
39:28that keep on happening
39:29around the country
39:30or what were his views
39:31on the Jhantar Mantar protests
39:32in the Mr. Pradhan design.
39:34You also have
39:34all these allegations
39:35about the Congress party
39:36being a feudal party
39:37and Rahul Gandhi
39:38never standing
39:38for tribals,
39:39women and Dalits.
39:40You're completely forgetting
39:41how Rahul Gandhi
39:42stood up
39:42with the victims
39:43of Hathras
39:44and with the Hathras victim
39:47with Rohit Vemila
39:48in the Una flogging case
39:49how he raised issues
39:51of women.
39:5130 seconds since you
39:52directly raised a point
39:53with Guru,
39:55Dr. Paswan
39:56and then Rajat Sethi.
39:58Dr. Paswan,
39:59quickly since a direct point
40:00has been made to you.
40:04Nikhil,
40:05we are child of protest.
40:07We are product of protest.
40:08Our entire leadership
40:09you see,
40:24be it late
40:25constantly engaging with them
40:27and as far as the question
40:28on Mr. Rahul Gandhi's
40:29thought process is concerned,
40:30we are very well aware
40:31of the fact
40:31as we speak Nikhil
40:33in Karnatak,
40:34there is a case
40:35on 17 people
40:37in Beligavi district
40:39of Karnatak
40:40for assaulting a Dalit.
40:41Did Rahul Gandhi go there?
40:42Did he tweet about it?
40:43He did not.
40:44You have to understand
40:45the selective outrage,
40:47the selective amnesia
40:48but if I were to stay
40:49on the current topic
40:51for the last 30 seconds
40:52I have on this part
40:53of the show,
40:54Rajat Sethi,
40:55a sin-like paper leak
40:57and it's a problem
40:58across a country
40:59whether it's a Congress
41:00ruled state,
41:00a BJP ruled state,
41:02any other party ruled state,
41:03it's happening
41:04across the country.
41:05Shouldn't the entire country
41:06have come together
41:07and debated it
41:08in Parliament?
41:10Can it be said
41:11that since three members
41:12of the JP
41:14in Jharkhand resigned
41:17or Khyad Teh,
41:18the chief,
41:19was taken into custody,
41:21action is being taken?
41:24See, Gaurav,
41:25I, for the past 30 days
41:27on various programs,
41:29I have been consistently
41:31maintaining
41:31that the state capacity,
41:34be it in centre
41:35and all the more
41:36in the states,
41:36is at abysmally low level.
41:38They are not
41:39technologically equipped
41:40to understand
41:41what it takes
41:42to conduct
41:43free and fair examinations.
41:45The centre
41:46where the NEET examination
41:48fiasco happened,
41:49it was because
41:49of inefficiencies
41:51and the leakages
41:51in the system.
41:52Over here,
41:53the chairman
41:54is selling the paper.
41:55Please understand
41:56the scale of difference
41:57that is there
41:58between what happened
41:59in the NEET fiasco
42:00and therefore...
42:01Sir, their teachers
42:02who were setting the paper
42:03were selling the paper.
42:04No, they were selling...
42:05Corruption,
42:06if there is corruption,
42:07what will do in the DNA?
42:08Centre or state or...
42:10So this is where
42:10you need to understand...
42:12See, God of peace,
42:13understand the kind of
42:13things that happen
42:14in the states
42:15is awful.
42:17The governance,
42:17the deficit that exists
42:18in various states
42:20of all hues and colours.
42:21Look at Rajasthan
42:22what happened.
42:22Look at DPSC.
42:23Look at Jharkhand.
42:24There are many, many states
42:25who grapple with this thing
42:26because over there,
42:28the chairmen,
42:29the bureaucrats
42:29who are sitting
42:30and manning these systems
42:31are so net deep
42:32in corruption
42:32that they don't even care
42:34about the political bosses
42:35anymore.
42:36And this is where
42:36the systemic rot
42:37has to be addressed
42:38by all political parties.
42:40We, the people
42:41of this country,
42:42we really hope
42:43that all our lawmakers
42:45would put their heads together
42:47and there has to be
42:49a system that ensures
42:51zero paper leak,
42:53total transparency
42:54and strictest possible action
42:56under the law
42:57against the paper leak mafia.
43:00Irrespective.
43:00You know,
43:01no matter howsoever
43:01high you may be,
43:02the law must be above you.
43:04I leave all our guests
43:05with that thought
43:06and I hope that sincerely happens.
43:08I've run out of time
43:09on this part of the show.
43:10I want to quickly shift focus
43:11to the other big story,
43:13that international story
43:13we're tracking around India today
43:15and that is the escalation
43:17on the West Asia front.
43:19The Houthi forces
43:20have stepped up their attacks
43:21on Saudi assets.
43:23Now, three days,
43:25three attacks
43:25against Saudi Arabia's interests
43:27and this is where
43:28this war is escalating.
43:30So on Sunday,
43:31you had Iran-backed
43:32Houthi rebels
43:33who attacked the Red Sea port
43:35of Mokai, Yemen.
43:37It's under Saudi control.
43:38Footage released
43:39by the Houthis
43:40show the launch
43:41of multiple ballistic missiles
43:43and several drones.
43:45This comes just days
43:46after Houthi forces
43:47attacked the Saudi
43:48military position
43:49in the Yemeni city
43:51of Marib.
43:52Again,
43:52under Saudi control.
43:55Houthis have also
43:56hit Saudi Arabia's
43:58Jizan refinery
43:59just two days
44:00after the kingdom
44:01signed a tripartite
44:03defense pact.
44:04Saudi Arabia,
44:05Turkey and Pakistan
44:07and this brings
44:07it to sharp focus.
44:09The Saudi-Pakistan-Turkey
44:11defense agreement
44:12signed in Mecca
44:13largest days ago,
44:14the Mecca agreement.
44:15The central provision
44:17of the agreement,
44:18a mutual defense commitment,
44:20an armed attack
44:21against one
44:22is an armed attack
44:23against all.
44:24And this brings us
44:25to a big question
44:26of the day.
44:27Now that Saudi interests
44:29have been targeted,
44:31will Pakistan
44:32target Yemeni forces
44:34and defend Saudi interests
44:37and should Pakistan
44:38do that,
44:39what does it mean
44:40for Pakistan-Iran relations
44:42because the Yemeni forces
44:44or the Houthi forces
44:45are backed by Iran.
44:46Joining me on this
44:47India Today special broadcast
44:48is Dr. Vail Awad.
44:50He's a senior journalist,
44:51a West Asia expert,
44:53understands the lay of the land
44:54and Major Adil Raja
44:55is a Pakistani
44:56former army officer,
44:58now a journalist,
44:59living in the United Kingdom.
45:00Gentlemen,
45:01welcome.
45:01Major Raja,
45:03your reading of Pakistan's role
45:05in this triparite agreement
45:06is Pakistan caught
45:08between the devil
45:09and the deep sea.
45:10Is Pakistan in a position
45:11to defend Saudi Arabia's interests
45:14against Houthi forces?
45:17Well, Gaurav,
45:18first of all,
45:18talking about this
45:20Mecca defense agreement,
45:22you know,
45:22to have a joint defense agreement
45:24and to make a commitment
45:26as it was announced,
45:28which has been made
45:29between Turkey
45:31Saudi Arabia
45:32and Pakistan.
45:33You need to have
45:34a joint enemy.
45:35But all these countries,
45:38all these three countries
45:39do not have
45:40a common enemy.
45:41So if they do not
45:43have a common enemy,
45:44then what is this
45:45defense agreement
45:46all about?
45:47Obviously,
45:48Saudi Arabia is under attack
45:49from Yemeni forces,
45:50which are considered
45:52by some
45:52as a proxy of Iran.
45:54And Saudis do not,
45:56you know,
45:57defend themselves
45:58historically.
45:59They hire the services
46:01of foreign forces,
46:03maybe mercenary forces
46:05or foreign state forces
46:07like Pakistan,
46:09even the Americans.
46:10But traditionally,
46:10Pakistan
46:11has been playing
46:12the role of mercenaries
46:14in Saudi Arabia.
46:15State-sponsored mercenaries
46:17are through
46:17a state agreement.
46:18The Pakistani army
46:19has been deployed
46:20in Saudi Arabia
46:21for over the decades
46:23to support Saudi defense.
46:25Now,
46:25coming over
46:26to the Yemeni front,
46:27the Pakistani air defense
46:29is already,
46:30you know,
46:31intercepting
46:31the Yemeni drone strikes.
46:34And they are successfully,
46:36they have announced those,
46:37they have announced it
46:39through their
46:39information operation channels
46:41a day before
46:42this deal
46:43was to be signed.
46:44Now,
46:45what is in it
46:45for Pakistan?
46:46Pakistan is a cash-strapped
46:48economy right now.
46:49Pakistan is looking
46:50for any kind of input
46:52monetarily.
46:53And Pakistan
46:54is definitely
46:55playing its part
46:56as a mercenary
46:57being paid
46:59to do this job
47:00over here.
47:00Turkey is definitely
47:01looking to sell
47:02their high-tech
47:04ammunition
47:04and arms
47:07to this alliance.
47:08And Saudis
47:09have got the money
47:10to buy this,
47:11you know,
47:12buy this weapons.
47:12So, let me bring in
47:12Dr. Wail Awad.
47:13Let me bring in
47:14Dr. Awad.
47:15Is this like
47:16a Sunni-Muslim alliance
47:17against a Shia Iran
47:19and its interests
47:20like the Yemeni
47:22Houthi forces?
47:23Sir, what is your
47:24reading of this
47:24Pakistan-Turkey
47:25and Saudi Arabia
47:26alliance?
47:27And how are
47:28countries like Iran
47:29and the Houthi forces
47:30in Yemen
47:31likely to view this?
47:33Thank you, Gaurav.
47:34I believe the
47:35main objective
47:36of this is to
47:37change the balance
47:38of regional powers
47:39in the region,
47:40especially after
47:41the American failure
47:42and the vacuum
47:43they have left,
47:44the security vacuum
47:45they have left
47:46in the region
47:46following the war
47:47on Iran.
47:48Because, you know,
47:49you notice that
47:50most of the American
47:51bases have been
47:52obliterated by Iran
47:53and instead of
47:54the American bases
47:55protecting the GCC,
47:57it turned out
47:57that the GCC
47:58are protecting
47:58the American air bases.
48:00So, therefore,
48:01I believe bringing
48:02on the Turkey
48:03and Pakistan
48:04into this kind
48:05of convivial
48:06is nothing but
48:07to contain
48:08the current situation,
48:10A, against Iran
48:11and the Houthis,
48:12B, also to bring back
48:13the balance
48:14of the power.
48:14But, however,
48:15Gaurav,
48:16it's still too early
48:17to speak of the
48:18implementation
48:18of this agreement
48:19because it is seen
48:21by many eyes
48:22that the three fronts,
48:24it is open fronts
48:25against Iran
48:26and the Houthis
48:27is the Turkey
48:28where it has
48:29its own influence
48:30in the Somalia
48:31and also they can
48:32penetrate
48:33and can play
48:34a balancing power
48:35for Saudi Arabia.
48:36So, I think
48:37it is too early
48:38but I don't believe
48:39that there is a permanent
48:40or there is a military
48:41solution to the Houthis.
48:43However, it has
48:44need to be apparel
48:45with the political
48:46solution because
48:46we have seen
48:47since 2014
48:49no military solution
48:50could solve this
48:51problem.
48:51But this coalition
48:52has come up
48:53only after the
48:54Saudi have made
48:55a coalition of 14
48:56countries to protect
48:58the maritimes
48:58on the Red Sea
48:59and now this came
49:00in effect
49:02but it is still
49:03I believe
49:03the devil lies
49:05in the details.
49:06The devil lies
49:08in the detail
49:08because as far as
49:09Houthi forces are
49:10concerned,
49:11they've made it
49:11very clear,
49:12the Babal Mandab
49:14access is closed
49:16for Saudi Arabia.
49:17Can it be enforced?
49:18And Major Raja,
49:20does Pakistan
49:20have enough
49:22wherewithal,
49:23men, material,
49:24warlike stores
49:25to fight overseas
49:26given the internal
49:27situation within
49:29Pakistan
49:29and Pakistan
49:30occupied Jammu
49:31and Kashmir?
49:32What is your
49:33reading of the
49:33current internal
49:34situation in Pakistan?
49:37Gaurav, firstly,
49:38I would fully
49:38endorse what
49:39respectable
49:40Dr.
49:41Wail Awad
49:42is saying
49:43over here.
49:44I would second
49:45what he's saying.
49:47Now, coming
49:47over to Pakistan,
49:48beggars cannot
49:49be choosers.
49:50These are not
49:51my words.
49:51These are the words
49:52of the Pakistani
49:53Prime Minister,
49:54Shabazz Sharif.
49:55Obviously,
49:56Pakistan is begging
49:57for money but
49:58because of
50:00Pakistan's
50:01economic situation,
50:02they do not have
50:03much choice over
50:04here and obviously
50:05there is a
50:05geopolitical angle
50:07where it is,
50:08at the end of the
50:09day, a Sunni
50:10military alliance
50:11with Iran.
50:14And Iran is
50:15next door neighbor
50:16of Pakistan and
50:17it is going to
50:18have implications
50:19and Pakistan's
50:19already fighting
50:20the Yemenis and
50:21Yemenis are backed
50:21by Iran.
50:23And definitely
50:24Pakistan is going
50:25to face the
50:26consequences of
50:27these actions in
50:28Pakistan and
50:29Pakistan is already
50:30facing insigency
50:31in Balochistan,
50:32in Khaybar-Pakhtun
50:32Khawab.
50:33So, obviously,
50:34the argument
50:35within Pakistan
50:36is and within
50:37the Pakistani
50:37military is and
50:39the contention,
50:40the bone of
50:40contention is that,
50:41listen, we are
50:42ourselves not
50:44secure.
50:45Pakistani
50:46internal security
50:46is already being
50:47challenged.
50:48Pakistani forces
50:49are already
50:50stretched and
50:51Pakistan cannot
50:52provide security
50:53to its own
50:54country.
50:54That's why they've
50:55outsourced their
50:56security to the
50:57so-called
50:58Dutch courts in
50:59Balochistan.
51:00They're hiring
51:00mercenaries, the
51:02former Afghan
51:02soldiers are
51:04coming into
51:04Pakistan, fighting
51:05over there.
51:06So, obviously, you
51:07know, this entire
51:08situation does not
51:09bed well for
51:10Pakistani security
51:11situation internally.
51:13And if anybody
51:14wants to exploit
51:15Pakistan internally,
51:16the situation is
51:17ripe because of the
51:19overall scenario
51:20which you've just
51:21discussed.
51:21Well, it should be
51:23very alarming for
51:24Pakistan, but
51:25Dr. Awad, when
51:26you look at the
51:27bigger geopolitical
51:28picture in West
51:29Asia, if Saudi
51:31Arabia comes under
51:32a sustained Houthi
51:33attack, or if
51:34Iran were to
51:35escalate, in your
51:37view, will
51:38Pakistan actually
51:39have to send
51:40forces to defend
51:41Saudi interests
51:42beyond, you
51:44know, air
51:45defence system,
51:46beyond fighter jets
51:47intercepting incoming
51:48missiles, or is the
51:49pact primarily a
51:51political message,
51:52you know, some
51:53kind of a deterrence
51:54arrangement, because
51:55there is a nuclear
51:56umbrella, do not
51:57target Saudi Arabia.
51:59No, I believe it
52:00is a very big deal.
52:01In fact, if you
52:02look at the
52:02paperwork of it,
52:04there's no doubt
52:04about it.
52:05It has really made
52:06a jetry movement
52:07in the region,
52:08especially with
52:09Israel and the
52:10United States and
52:11India.
52:11Therefore, I believe
52:12it is a very
52:13strong agreement.
52:15But however, the
52:16Pakistanis, you must
52:17remember, Gaurav,
52:18that you know it
52:18also, that
52:19the Pakistani
52:20army have been
52:21always in Saudi
52:22Arabia, been
52:22there for more
52:23than seven decades.
52:25They're protecting
52:25the monarchs.
52:26So they have always
52:27been present there.
52:28They have been
52:28using their air
52:29forces.
52:30They are using
52:30the pilot.
52:31Many people
52:32understand that
52:33Pakistan has
52:33already given
52:34that leverage
52:35to Saudi Arabia.
52:36But in terms
52:37of sending
52:38troops on the
52:39ground, I doubt
52:39it if they
52:40will ever do it.
52:41And secondly,
52:42let's remember
52:42also, Turkey
52:43is a NATO
52:43member.
52:45If they attack
52:46and they take
52:47part in the
52:47attack against
52:48Iran, that
52:48means they're
52:49bringing NATO
52:49into the picture
52:51of the fighting
52:51there.
52:52Therefore, Pakistan
52:53is in a catch-22
52:54and they cannot
52:55say no to
52:56Saudi Arabia,
52:57they cannot say
52:58no to Emirates
52:59because they need
53:00both the monies
53:01of both the
53:01countries.
53:02And also,
53:02they wanted to
53:03play a role
53:03maybe in
53:04stabilizing Saudi
53:05Arabia and in
53:06the region.
53:07Let's watch and
53:07see what will be
53:08the development
53:09in the next few
53:10months because
53:11everybody forgot
53:12what's happening
53:12in Palestine.
53:14True, true.
53:16And Major
53:17Raja, you're
53:17in touch with
53:18several army
53:19officers both
53:20serving and
53:21retired in
53:23Pakistan.
53:23Reports seem
53:24to indicate that
53:25Pakistan has
53:25already moved
53:26some 13,000
53:27ground troops
53:29to Saudi Arabia.
53:30Multiple
53:31aircraft are
53:32either already
53:32deployed or in
53:33the process of
53:34being deployed.
53:35And I'm
53:35talking about
53:36information that
53:36came, started
53:37coming beyond
53:38September 2025.
53:41Now, what is
53:42the situation as
53:44on date?
53:45Is it likely to
53:46escalate?
53:47Are there reports
53:47that Pakistan is
53:48being asked to
53:48send in more
53:50troops and can
53:50it afford to
53:51send more troops?
53:52Because one of
53:53your reports seem
53:53to indicate that
53:55Pakistan's army is
53:56getting hollowed
53:57out.
53:58Several divisions
53:59lack brigades,
54:00several brigades
54:01lack battalions and
54:03the outer structure
54:05may be there.
54:06Internally, it's a
54:07very weak situation.
54:08is it?
54:11One of Pakistani
54:12troops have been
54:14earmarked in a
54:15division-sized force,
54:17have been earmarked
54:18because the Saudi
54:18terrain requires
54:19mechanized forces.
54:21That's why troops
54:22from the 25
54:23mechanized division
54:25in Karachi have
54:26been earmarked,
54:27and they have
54:27already moved to
54:28Saudi Arab, and
54:29there are troops
54:30on ground, boots
54:31on ground in
54:32Saudi Arabia, and
54:33they're actively
54:34participating against
54:35operations against
54:37Yemen.
54:38And obviously,
54:39they are part and
54:40parcel of this
54:41Saudi defense
54:42infrastructure right
54:43now, as far as
54:45the Pakistani
54:45officers are concerned.
54:46They are very happy
54:49that the Saudi pay
54:50package is really
54:51good.
54:52And they say that
54:53if we spend a couple
54:54of years in Saudi
54:55Arabia as an
54:56incentive, if we
54:58left, we'll come back
54:59and we will buy a new
55:01house and a new
55:02plot and a new car
55:03maybe.
55:04So at the end of the
55:05day, this is the
55:06mercenary mindset
55:07because domestically
55:08Pakistani internal
55:09economic situation
55:10is so tense.
55:11and everybody wants to do a
55:16way out, and even if it is
55:18for a war, and even if it
55:20is for fighting for
55:21another country and
55:23getting a good pay
55:24package, they're willing
55:25to do that because at the
55:26end of the day, it is
55:27about money for them.
55:28It is not about ideology
55:29for them.
55:30But the problem is that
55:31the Pakistani troops are
55:33secular troops in its
55:35in essence, once you
55:37obviously the outlook is
55:38iman, taqwa, jihad.
55:40These are very
55:40religious, jihadis.
55:42No, sir.
55:44They are making money
55:47out of it.
55:47Their problem is that
55:49Shia Sunni are doing
55:50both of them and Shia Sunni
55:52divide the forge
55:53under the
55:54But because of this
55:56particular deployment and
55:57because of this
55:58Sunni so-called
55:59Sunni defense
56:00agreement signed in
56:01Makkah, the Shia Sunni
56:03divide would be created
56:04because Saudi Arab do
56:06not accept Shia officers
56:07and Shia soldiers who
56:09are 30 to 40 percent
56:11strength of the
56:12Pakistan army.
56:13Very good point.
56:14They are discriminating
56:16and they are sending
56:18the rest of the
56:19pay package.
56:21So there will be
56:22serious dissent on
56:25this particular point
56:26that why is the
56:27Pakistani military
56:28command giving in
56:29to the Saudi demand
56:30of not sending
56:31the Shia manpower
56:33because the
56:34Pakistani military
56:35makeup is not
56:36secretarian.
56:37But it will become
56:38secretarian after
56:39this deployment.
56:40That's a very
56:41interesting point to make
56:43that a Shia Sunni divide
56:45within the Pakistan
56:46army will be created
56:48because only Sunni
56:49Muslim officers will
56:50go and serve in
56:51Saudi Arabia.
56:52They'll get higher
56:52pay packets and
56:54Shia officers will
56:55feel left out.
56:56Will we see more
56:57cases of the
56:58exploding mangoes
56:59in times to come?
57:00I've run out of time
57:01on this part of the
57:02show.
57:02Remember how Ziaul Haq's
57:05plane went up
57:06mid-air.
57:07It was a C-130
57:08Hercules of the
57:10Pakistan Air Force
57:11but that's a story
57:11for another time.
57:13I will track that.
57:14I'll get you much
57:15more on that story.
57:16A quick break.
57:17News and updates
57:18continue on India
57:19Today.
57:40We'll see you next time.
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