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00:01So, I'll just, why not?
00:05There's another round of Josh Allen versus Patrick Mahomes today.
00:11Bill Barnwell.
00:12Oh, there is? I didn't see.
00:13I know.
00:13I did not see.
00:14I think we both do our best to sort of avoid it, right? Or no?
00:19I wouldn't say I avoided it, I just, I did not, I didn't see it.
00:22I did my usual thing today, I just didn't come across anything from Barnwell today.
00:27I have never had the first impulse to really debate it, and I'll tell you why.
00:33Because I think, not that, and a lot of people will do it.
00:39I mean, I think maybe if you polled 100 analysts, more would put Allen number one than would put Mahomes
00:45right now.
00:46I think that that's sort of in vogue.
00:48But I have no appetite at all to debate it when one guy has been to five Super Bowls and
00:56the other guy has been to none.
00:57Yeah, that's pretty much it for me, too.
01:01And so I don't really care how brilliantly or in some novel way you can make the case, that scoreboard
01:15is heavily tilted in one direction to me.
01:18And I think that is itself worth analyzing because I don't claim to be QB wins guy at all.
01:28I don't claim to be anybody that's sort of like, well, you can't be, you couldn't be the best quarterback
01:32in the league if you hadn't been to one or you hadn't won one or whatever it is.
01:37So I want to be fair about it.
01:40It's just like, it's five to nothing.
01:43You know, one guy has come to define the era through his greatness and team success.
01:51And the other guy, who might be better in a vacuum, might be better, has not.
01:57I mean, he has, I don't think he's, I don't think Josh Allen is known for failures at all.
02:02I don't even think he is on the level that Manning was.
02:06I don't think, like Manning, when he couldn't get through New England, which has, which lasted about as long as
02:14this has lasted.
02:15I mean, Manning comes in the league in 98.
02:17We're a couple of years past it now.
02:19Two years ago when they hosted, no, the AFC title game year was, if they had beaten Mahomes and the
02:27Chiefs in the second meeting they had in AFC title games,
02:30it would have matched how long it took Manning to get past Brady in that spot.
02:34Okay, yeah.
02:36I'm pretty sure.
02:36Manning is in the league in 98, and that's 06 when they win, so eight years.
02:41And that would have been, right?
02:43Or this is nine now.
02:44It's right around there.
02:45Yeah.
02:46Yes.
02:47So, I mean, Manning was blamed for their losses.
02:54It was like, Belichick owns him, and Brady is better, because Brady has been to three and won three, and
03:03you can't get to a single one.
03:04Then he does, and then there's still more of that.
03:07Brady and the Patriots have their second act when they beat Seattle and the Rams and Atlanta.
03:11Like, another three wins there in short order.
03:14And Manning eventually goes to Denver and wins in Denver and then retires.
03:19I just, I don't know.
03:21I know a lot of people enjoy it and want to stick up for Allen, which I think is totally
03:27fine and fair to do.
03:29I mean, individually, one versus one, you could say it.
03:35I mean, you could, it's not controversial even, I think, to say that Allen is the better player, has been
03:42the better player.
03:42If you had a quarterback Olympics and you were going to, like, measure, you know, distance, velocity, throwing the ball,
03:55running, jumping, all that stuff.
03:57I think Allen probably wins enough of those events.
04:02I don't know how many events I need to create for something that's never going to happen here.
04:06But I could listen to Allen is the superior athlete at the position and even has, like, the bigger arm,
04:15the stronger, all of that.
04:17But that's not how I'm going to decide which guy is the better quarterback.
04:24There's just, there are certain things for me that I might think about it, I might talk about it privately,
04:31but I just don't want to be heard saying it, like, whatever it might be.
04:35And when Mahomes has been to five and won three, I just feel like you've got to be kidding me
04:41with anybody else comes in on top, even Lamar Jackson.
04:45And, you know, that is tough to say, too.
04:48I saw Barnwell's thing and Nick Wright responded with how he thought it was ridiculous to put Allen first.
04:55And then Barnwell couldn't help himself but for, like, yeah, love hearing how much I hate the Chiefs after picking
05:01them to win the Super Bowl six years in a row.
05:03Like, you know, give me a break.
05:05I just, I think the takeaway is that's interesting, and this is a little bit how I felt talking about
05:13running backs and money the last few days.
05:15Like, you can have a position, but I think there comes a point at which you need to bend.
05:22Mm-hmm.
05:24And, all right, don't pay running backs means what?
05:27Don't pay them anything?
05:28Minimum?
05:29Or else I don't want you?
05:30Only the minimum?
05:31No.
05:31I mean, that's not reasonable.
05:33You find a middle ground or you find some place where you don't think you're getting completely crushed by paying
05:43your running back a lot.
05:44It's interesting how it's sort of spiked through James Cook to these guys now, but the cap is always going
05:52up.
05:52Right.
05:52And, you know, they're the face of your franchise.
05:54You do it.
05:54I think the exercise that needs to be undertaken or probably will be or maybe already has been, I don't
06:00know, these guys have just signed really this week, the three running backs this week, right?
06:04It was Robinson, Taylor, and then Gibbs yesterday, is how much is the top or those top running back salaries,
06:13how much are they lagging behind wide receiver still?
06:16Because wide receivers, $40 million has kind of become a benchmark there, it feels like, and $30 was the benchmark
06:23while Diggs was here, right?
06:25So running backs are getting paid more, but everyone's getting paid more.
06:31Guards, we found out today, are all getting paid more.
06:33Like everyone, the cap goes up, that's how the business works.
06:36So proportionally, I wonder how much running back is still, it might be the same percentage they're lagging behind, either
06:45average salary or the top five at the position or something, might still be the same percentage behind that they've
06:53been through the last 10 years while we were on the don't pay run.
06:57Maybe.
06:57I don't know that.
06:58I haven't done the work.
07:00One thing that's pushed running backs up, I saw this before Gibbs, so maybe now it would be of the
07:05top six.
07:06And not the top five running backs in terms of either average annual value or total guaranteed money, one of
07:13the two, probably, that one thing that's pushed that up is two of the top five or six now probably
07:20are rookies or on rookie deals because they were drafted so early.
07:25Jeremiah Love went third.
07:26What was Gentry?
07:27Fifth.
07:28So their draft status was so high that they were locked in.
07:34Yeah, their average salaries to start are higher than a lot of running backs who are on their second contracts.
07:40Yeah.
07:40So I guess that's another example, perhaps, of why you don't pay them or draft them that early, rather.
07:47Right, right.
07:47But you've got that now, and as you said, you've got Bijan, you've got Gibbs today, you've got Jonathan Taylor.
07:53Well, the league has also changed, and that's an acknowledgement of that.
07:57I think the whole don't pay running backs thing started when they simply, I think schematically, game plan-wise, weren't
08:06as important as your passing game.
08:09But with the defenses, like, this is the yin and yang of pro football.
08:14Like, we had a 2020 through 22, 23, it was, you know, Mahomes showed up, and it's just, oh my
08:23gosh, four touchdowns a game, like, you know, almost on the regular.
08:27And once that started, defenses figured out a way to try to neutralize that to some extent.
08:34All right, how else am I going to do this?
08:36Well, here comes the running game.
08:38And so with it sort of being brought back in as more than just a, like, a sidecar to your
08:46offense, guys, they matter more, they're getting paid more.
08:51Yeah, so in this example, I mean, you pay them.
08:57Do you want to pay your running back the highest running back dollars in the league?
09:02No, not ideally.
09:04But, you know, it's just, there's a little bit of a give to that, and you don't want necessarily your
09:10position to just be like, never, ever, ever.
09:12Circumstances.
09:13I think, think about Cook.
09:14I mean, he, I think, how do you remember it?
09:17Two years ago.
09:18I think most fans probably thought, or analysts even, thought he might have been a little bit early to, it's
09:25time for me to get my money.
09:27But he got his money.
09:28It wasn't too, it was just last summer.
09:30Last summer.
09:30Last summer.
09:31But, you know, we talked about it.
09:33Yeah, yeah, that's right.
09:34Going into the year, that's right, yep.
09:36Led the league in touchdowns, or shared the league lead in touchdowns, franchise record.
09:41All right, well, so?
09:44I mean, going into next year, but he struck.
09:48And he got his money.
09:49It wasn't even that arduous.
09:51I mean, it was the spring and early summer.
09:54He had a little bit of hold in, whatever, but it wasn't.
09:56Wasn't long.
09:56Yeah.
09:57Got his money and then had a great season again.
10:01So, there's that.
10:02And that's what I think is kind of the QB wins thing is, all right, well, I don't want to
10:08hear, this goes back a long time, longer for me than the running back thing does.
10:11I don't want to hear about quarterback A is better than B because his team wins more often.
10:19Just, like, simple as that.
10:21Their defense is better.
10:23Their surrounding talent may be better.
10:25Their coaches, their franchise, sort of like the foundation is stronger, more of a reputation for winning.
10:30Like, I don't want to distract myself in this debate with all of that.
10:38You know, like, that's not fair to the other guy.
10:40There's always this in sports.
10:42Somebody who might have been not the best ever, but somebody great, but they're just sort of trapped in this
10:49organization or situation where there's just no hope for them.
10:54I'm not saying that, like, J.P. Lossman would have been the best ever, but, you know, if he's drafted,
10:59if anything's different, the rest can be different, too.
11:02So, QB wins.
11:04Well, that's not where we start, I think, to have an intelligent debate about who's better than whom.
11:11But at some point, it gets to be, yeah, you know, hands up.
11:17I don't want to fight for the guy who hasn't, whether that's Lamar Jackson or Josh Allen, I don't want
11:22to fight for the guy that hasn't been when that guy's been five times.
11:25Right.
11:26It's not like it's one, you know, or even two.
11:29It's five.
11:30And you both had head-to-head chances in close games.
11:34Is it their fault?
11:35Right.
11:35I'm not going that far.
11:37But it is what it is.
11:40It, you know, we've argued for a few years now about the, you know, having the ball last, opportunity to
11:49win the game, and not coming through.
11:51You know, it might be that Patrick Mahomes owned Sean McDermott more than he owned Josh Allen.
11:59You know, he, he, he, when he had opportunities at the end of games, he, he's come through.
12:05And our guy hasn't.
12:06And in some way, like, without, like, I, I don't, I don't, I don't prefer someone ahead of Josh Allen
12:15other than Mahomes.
12:17So, I don't want, I don't want to ding him too hard, but I also want to acknowledge, like, if
12:22Mahomes has the ball in that situation, they're, they're beating you.
12:26He, he's, he's done it numerous times, and we have not.
12:31And so, I don't know, that's Steve Spagnuolo versus Sean McDermott, and that's where you can circle back to, well,
12:37it's still because my defense can't stop him.
12:40And, like, I don't know, I, I think if I've got a guy that's as good as Allen, they shouldn't
12:45be able to stop me either.
12:46Like, that's, that's the game, to, to an extent.
12:49So, um, I'm a little harder on him, I think, about some of the playoff losses than a lot of
12:56Bills fans.
12:57And I think a part of that, even though people don't want to cop to it, is that you buy
13:02his jersey and it's easier to blame the coach.
13:04You love, you love Allen, and Allen is more important.
13:08He's the most important figure in the franchise since he got here, and there's no debating that to me.
13:12Maybe you could argue that Reed is more important than McDermott was to the Chiefs' success with Mahomes, because he's
13:21an offensive guy, and like that all, but like, I can only get so far, and that's why I would
13:27never even try to assert that Allen belongs ranked above Mahomes, in any way, shape, or form.
13:33Because head-to-head, in playoff games, the results are the results, and that's not all because of 13 seconds.
13:410-4.
13:41You know, it's not, like, that was a glaring, awful, almost impossible-to-overcome wound that we all suffered.
13:51But every other game hasn't been that.
13:55No, I mean, Allen was maybe never better than that second half or that fourth quarter.
14:00And that's, that lingers, and I think allows for the whole point to get overstated to an extent.
14:08But, yeah, I mean, he, they deserved, he deserved to win that game with no question.
14:15You leave the field having taintily with 13 seconds, you know, I'm sorry, you should be able to get that
14:20game parked in the garage.
14:21And they didn't.
14:21And that is on the coaches.
14:24But, I don't know, the other ones aren't, to me, as glaring.
14:29Osiris Torrance gets paid.
14:30We'll talk about that.
14:31Sal Capaccio will join us later in the day.
14:34Some fantasy football today with Scott Barrett of Fantasy Points.
14:38His new big book is out previewing the season.
14:42I mean, it's definitely that time of year.
14:44Like it or not.
14:47Are you talking to me?
14:48Yes.
14:49I'm fine.
14:51I like football season.
14:54Yes.
14:55Whether you want to draft Isaiah Likely in round 10, that might be for me to answer, but maybe not.
15:01I truly have a take on it.
15:03Next, though, Sam Paniatovich.
15:04Again, Sam struggling a little bit on a Vegas trip.
15:08That can happen.
15:09So, we promised him only softball questions today.
15:12Stay tuned for that.
15:13Mike Shope and the Bulldog here.
15:14Happy Friday.
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