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00:03What are we looking for today, anyway?
00:05Zoe Ball is a legend of British television and radio,
00:09with a career spanning over 30 years.
00:13I'll tell you what, Natasha's mum,
00:15we're going to send you our very uncanny parent.
00:17She made a name for herself,
00:19fronting some of the biggest TV shows of the 90s.
00:22Hey, it's Friday, it's 7.30, it's still number one,
00:25it's Top of the Pops!
00:28I've been really blessed with the jobs I've got to do,
00:32from The Big Breakfast, live and kicking,
00:34and then to go into radio.
00:37Zoe was the first woman in broadcast history
00:40to helm both the BBC Radio 1 and 2 breakfast shows,
00:44before stepping down in 2024.
00:48We lost my mum last year,
00:50and it really made me step back and look at the bigger picture
00:55and re-evaluate what's important in my life.
01:00Nellie, my daughter, is 15,
01:03and I just want to be mum and be around for her,
01:06before she's grown up and off out in the big wide world,
01:10like her brother, Woody.
01:11If you were doing, look, Shakespeare Day...
01:15Shakespeare Day? Yeah.
01:18My kids are really keen to know if we are Brits through and through,
01:23is there any Viking, is there any pirates?
01:26Maybe they were what they called Morris dancers.
01:29We sort of joke that we're convinced that we come from a line of wrong-uns.
01:35Zoe's dad, Johnny Ball, is the iconic children's TV presenter
01:39of the 70s and 80s.
01:41Famous for shows like Play School and Think of a Number.
01:44If you want to multiply 8 by 9, you fold the 8's finger down,
01:47and the answer is 70, 1, 2.
01:49And then we were out and about, people would be like,
01:52Johnny, you all right, Johnny, give me a number, la, la, la.
01:55And he would...
01:56He was always so brilliant with people, chat away,
01:59and he always used to say to me,
02:00so, it's just a job.
02:01And he's right, it's just a job.
02:03It's just people know your face.
02:05As a teenager, it was quite embarrassing.
02:09Zoe's parents, Johnny and Julia,
02:11divorced when she was just a toddler.
02:14I think with things being a little bit tricky,
02:16and they both met new partners,
02:18it was decided at some point that I would stay with my dad.
02:24And it was pretty tough.
02:26I didn't see my mum for about 14 years,
02:28which is a long time for a kid not to see her mum.
02:32And then when we did connect again when I was 18,
02:36there was a lot of making up to do.
02:39Hang on.
02:42Yeah, there we go.
02:44I don't remember ever meeting my mum's mum.
02:48Her name was Margaret, but everyone called her Peg.
02:51For a time, she was in, I guess,
02:53it would have been called an asylum in those days,
02:56because she struggled with her mental health.
02:58Families are fascinating,
03:00because there are stories families tell,
03:01and there are stories that get hushed up.
03:04So I'd be quite keen to find out more about what happened to her.
03:09Almost pulling back the curtain.
03:11It could get quite emotional for me,
03:13because my mum was really excited about the prospect of us
03:18having a good dig into the past.
03:20This has actually looked really quite good.
03:22I feel like it's even more important now.
03:25I'm really sad she's not here to learn these things,
03:28but wherever she is, you know, she's with me here in my heart.
04:01You're feeling bad.
04:09Zoe is starting with her dad, Johnny's side of the family.
04:15She has come to her childhood home in Buckinghamshire
04:17to see what he can tell her about the history of the balls.
04:23Dudley! Hello.
04:25Oh, it's cold out.
04:28Oh, look at that.
04:31Look at that lovely 70s bowl haircut.
04:35You look very happy.
04:36I remember that garden because I had a paddling pool
04:37and I had a little Wendy house.
04:40They were cool in those days, a little playhouse.
04:42And I was in that Wendy house day in, day out.
04:44Absolutely.
04:45But then we let you back into your bedroom.
04:48Eventually, we let him back in the house.
04:50Oh, look, there he is.
04:53My grandad, Ball, and my nana.
04:56So Anne and Dan, your mum and dad.
04:58Look at his cheeky smile, even there.
05:01My dad would have been a brilliant stand-up comic.
05:04And that's, in a way, where I got it all from.
05:07And he used to really make me giggle.
05:09You can see why, like, Stan Laurel always reminded me of grandad.
05:13That's right.
05:13There was that lovely, gentle humour.
05:16He used to do that.
05:17He used to do that all the time.
05:18And it was exactly Stan Laurel.
05:20A nana, and I remember her mashed carrots.
05:23Do you remember?
05:24She used to mash carrots.
05:25Yeah.
05:25And you hated them.
05:26And I loved those mashed carrots.
05:27My dad used to say, you know, my dad used to say, good heavens, 10 o'clock and no cabbage
05:32on.
05:32Because at the weekend, the cabbage used to go on by 10 o'clock and you'd have lunch at one.
05:38And that cabbage would be boiling away until there was nothing.
05:42Nothing of it.
05:43And you'd get that smell.
05:45So what about grandad's family then?
05:48He was one of five kids.
05:49But the saddest thing of all is dad's mum died when he was about four.
05:56So he never really knew her.
05:58So where was his mum from?
06:01Was she from Lancashire?
06:02Well, so all the balls were from Bolton.
06:05But she was in McMenemy and she came from Glasgow.
06:08No.
06:09Yeah, but that's all we know.
06:10I've never heard this before.
06:12By my grand.
06:13You can't.
06:13We really know.
06:14No, I've never heard this.
06:15Well, yeah.
06:16But I don't even remember her first name.
06:18Should we see if we can do a bit of research?
06:22Daniel.
06:23Born.
06:24And what year was he born?
06:251908.
06:261908.
06:27Where was he born?
06:29Bolton.
06:30Bolton.
06:30Right, here we go.
06:32Census for England and Wales.
06:34Bolton, Lancashire.
06:34Should we look at that one?
06:35Yeah.
06:36So this is 1911.
06:39William Ball.
06:40Oh, my great-grandad.
06:43That's Dan's dad.
06:45Oh, look, he was a coal miner.
06:46And look, there we go.
06:47Catherine Ball.
06:49So that's my great-grandmother.
06:51Yes.
06:52And your grandmother.
06:54Yeah.
06:54And then we have Effie Ball, daughter.
06:57Goodness me, there's more.
06:58There's more Ball.
06:59Well, these are the three.
07:00Yeah.
07:00Did you know there were that many?
07:02One, two, three, four, five, six.
07:03I thought there were three, four, five of them.
07:06And there is Daniel Ball.
07:08There's grandad.
07:09Yeah.
07:09Look, so he was three.
07:11Yeah.
07:12Catherine Ball.
07:13Yeah.
07:13So we've got her age, 41.
07:16So can we work out when she was born?
07:19Okay.
07:20Dad's three here, so she was 38 when he was born.
07:25Yeah.
07:25So 38, and he was born in 08, 38, 1870, I think she was born.
07:32It's good to see the genius at work there.
07:34I'm really glad you did the maths.
07:371870.
07:3819 results.
07:39Dad, this is so exciting.
07:42Scotland Roman Catholic Parish, baptisms.
07:46Glasgow.
07:47Glasgow.
07:48There you are.
07:49There's quite a lot.
07:50It's quite hard to read the writing, isn't it?
07:52Catherine.
07:53Catherine, there it is.
07:54There she is.
07:55There it is.
07:55Born to...
07:57Daniel.
07:57Daniel.
07:58Is it Daniel McManamy?
07:59McManamy.
08:00We should explain Dad's name, wouldn't we?
08:01Yeah.
08:02And is that...
08:03What's that say there?
08:05Is that say Euphenia?
08:09This is brilliant.
08:11Don't, don't, don't.
08:12Hang on.
08:12So they are my great-great-grandparents?
08:16Yeah.
08:17And where do they live?
08:19So seven...
08:20Is that Landry Street?
08:22Maybe.
08:23Is it?
08:23I'm absolutely thrilled about this.
08:26I've got to go then.
08:28Zoe has discovered that her great-grandmother on her dad's side was called Catherine McMenamy
08:33and that through her she has Scottish ancestry.
08:43She has come to Glasgow, where Catherine lived with her parents, Daniel and Euphemia, Zoe's great-great-grandparents, to see
08:51what she can uncover.
08:54Zoe is meeting Glasgow historian, Peter Mortimer, on Landry Street.
08:59Peter.
09:00Zoe, welcome to Glasgow.
09:01Really?
09:01Oh, I'm so excited to be here.
09:04To find myself in Landry Street.
09:06How much is left from the time that Catherine would have lived here?
09:10None of it would have been here.
09:11Brickton was a very industrial area.
09:15Mick, let me illustrate that with this map.
09:17Oh, let me get my specs on, Peter.
09:20And we are stood here.
09:22There it is.
09:22In Landry Street.
09:23OK.
09:24It's so busy.
09:25There's a lot of buildings around here.
09:27And I can see Greenhead Mills, the Cotton Mill, Powerloom, Powerloom over here.
09:35Gosh, just so many mills.
09:37This is into the middle of the 19th century, following on the coattails of the Industrial Revolution.
09:43Industrial Revolution.
09:43Glasgow was booming.
09:44So can you tell me about my family and how things were for them around that time?
09:50OK, I think we can.
09:51Look at this.
09:52This is a document of the 1871 census.
09:56So you've got 5 Landry Street there.
09:59Number 7.
10:00Here we go.
10:01And there's a little...
10:02Oh, my goodness me.
10:03There's so many names here.
10:05This is all in one building.
10:08And then we finally have Daniel McMenemy, Euphemia.
10:13And there she is.
10:14Catherine, my great-grandmother, living in this house with all these other families.
10:20There would have been 11 families and upwards of 50 persons.
10:24How does that work?
10:27Like many in 19th century Glasgow, Zoe's great-grandmother, Catherine McMenemy, lived in what was known as a tenement house.
10:37Over four floors, these buildings often contained as many as 12 flats, each one made up of just a small
10:45living room and kitchen for the whole family.
10:49In the poorer tenements, there was only one shared outdoor toilet.
10:54With overcrowding and poor sanitation, disease spread quickly.
11:00Many of Glasgow's original tenement houses remain today.
11:03So Peter is taking Zoe to get a sense of what they were like.
11:08So, do we know any more about Catherine?
11:10Did she have siblings?
11:12Yes.
11:12And the first of them was Euphemia.
11:16Oh, after her mum?
11:17Absolutely.
11:18OK.
11:20OK, we have register of death in Scotland in 1872.
11:26That's good.
11:27Oh, no.
11:29Euphemia McMenemy.
11:31Oh, goodness me.
11:32Does that say 19 days?
11:36Oh.
11:38She had a brother.
11:39Yeah.
11:40Called Peter.
11:41Oh, it's another register of death.
11:43So, Peter McMenemy, three and a half months.
11:48Yes.
11:50Whooping cough.
11:51Today, very treatable.
11:52Yeah.
11:53Back then, took a lot of lives.
11:55Dear Peter.
11:56So, it's only by reading documents like this that we even know that...
12:00Yeah.
12:00..they existed at all.
12:02Really does show how tough life was.
12:05How fragile life was.
12:06Yeah, fragile.
12:08Unfortunately, the bad news did not stop with the babies.
12:11OK.
12:12Oh, no.
12:13Euphemia.
12:15Oh, gosh.
12:16This is Catherine's mum.
12:19Is 29 years old when she dies.
12:22Oh.
12:23And her cause of death was...
12:25Cysis.
12:27What?
12:27Cysis?
12:28Better known as tuberculosis.
12:30Tuberculosis.
12:31OK, TB.
12:32Yeah.
12:33And was TB, I'm imagining, sort of rife at that time.
12:37Yeah, at living conditions, poor living conditions contributed to this.
12:41And Catherine's only five or six by this time.
12:44So, who would look after Catherine after her mum's death?
12:49Let me shine a light on that for you.
12:51OK.
12:51This is another document.
12:54This is a census from 1881.
12:57So, hang on.
12:59Oh.
13:00So, this is a few years later.
13:02And we're at the school board district of Paisley.
13:07So, has Daniel moved?
13:10What has happened?
13:12Catherine.
13:13Ah.
13:15Catherine's here.
13:16No mention of her dad.
13:18Lodger.
13:19Hang on a minute.
13:20She's 11...
13:21She's 11 years old.
13:22Helen McMahon is the head of the house.
13:25She's living with her son, Daniel, her niece.
13:29And Catherine is a lodger.
13:32The McMahns.
13:34So, is that a relative?
13:37Or...
13:37She's just been taken in?
13:39Or she's adopted?
13:41Or...
13:42I just don't know.
13:50Today's suddenly taken a bit of a turn.
13:52The excitement of finding out that my great-grandmother, Catherine,
13:55was from Glasgow, coming up here and finding out where she lived
13:59and a little bit about her life.
14:02Suddenly, that story's become very, very sad
14:05that this little girl has lost two baby siblings
14:08and then her mum, my great-great-grandmother,
14:11euphemia, is gone at just 29 years old.
14:15Where does that leave Catherine?
14:18And what has happened to my great-great-grandfather, Daniel?
14:22Where has he gone?
14:23Has he shacked up with somebody else?
14:25Is he still alive?
14:29To solve the mystery of how her great-grandmother, Catherine McMenemy,
14:33came to be living as a lodger with Helen McMahon at the age of just 11,
14:38Zoe has come to the Mitchell Library in Glasgow
14:40to meet genealogist Morag Piers.
14:45OK, so what we can confirm is that we found her dad in Edinburgh.
14:49In Edinburgh, right.
14:50In Edinburgh, which is 60 miles from Paisley.
14:52Yeah.
14:52And he's working there.
14:54It wasn't unusual for fathers.
14:57They didn't have...
14:58There wasn't nurseries, there wasn't daycares.
15:00The child would be sent to live with some other relative
15:03so they could carry on working to earn a living
15:07because they had to.
15:08They had no other option.
15:09And having looked into this further,
15:12we can confirm that Helen is actually in a relationship
15:17with Daniel McMenemy and this Daniel here is their child.
15:22So the family line carries on.
15:25And he met someone else after losing his wife who's so young.
15:28It seems so, yes.
15:30So for Catherine, I mean, it could be complicated,
15:33but for Catherine, she, having lost two siblings,
15:36she now has a baby brother.
15:38Half-brother, yes.
15:40Half-brother, yes.
15:40And so she's in the household with her...
15:42Her step-mum?
15:43..step-mum and her half-brother.
15:45Oh, I don't know why, but I find that quite comforting.
15:48That she's now...
15:50She is still in a family.
15:51Absolutely.
15:52He's not abandoned her.
15:53He's not abandoned her.
15:55Oh, I knew he was a good man.
15:57I did, I knew he was a good man.
15:59OK, something else that interests me here, and I don't know.
16:02As I look at Catherine here, it seems that she has a job there.
16:08Yeah, so it says she's a half-time starch worker.
16:11So half-time means that she's part-time in the textile mills
16:15and part-time at school.
16:16It doesn't really mean half and half.
16:18It's probably more skewed towards the working.
16:21So what would happen next for Catherine?
16:24OK, well, I'm afraid it's not a very happy story.
16:26Oh, there's been a lot of tragedy in this story so far.
16:30Because not long after the census was taken, both Helen and Daniel died.
16:36Gosh, yes.
16:37And she's lost again.
16:38Another sibling.
16:39Another sibling.
16:40And a step-mom.
16:40Yeah, so...
16:41But we do pick her up a few years later.
16:44There's a bit of a gap in the records,
16:45but the next record I've got to show you is this one.
16:48OK, so here we have a copy of the entry of death.
16:53So here's Daniel, my great-great-grandfather, Catherine's dad.
16:57Yeah, yeah.
16:58And he was 40 years old when he died.
17:03And he had laryngitis.
17:06Gosh, you know, I mean, laryngitis aren't common for us.
17:09I often get laryngitis.
17:10You go to the doctor, they give you some antibiotics,
17:12and you're better.
17:14Oh, Catherine McManamy, present at the death.
17:18So she was with him when he died.
17:20Yeah.
17:20So at some point between the census...
17:24Oh.
17:24Between some point, between the 1881 census
17:27and this death in 1889, they've come back together.
17:31And did you notice where it was registered, the death?
17:35In Bolton, at the county of Lancaster.
17:38So it all starts to come together.
17:40I'm really sad that he's died so young,
17:43because 40 seems so young.
17:45It is very young.
17:45There is such comfort to know that Catherine
17:47was back with her father and was there for him
17:51when he passed away.
17:53So somehow they have both moved to Bolton.
17:58And I think that's probably work connected.
18:00OK.
18:00Because Bolton, like Glasgow, like Paisley,
18:02big industrial centre, industrial revolution,
18:05lots of textile mills, and there's work there.
18:07Do we know what happened next?
18:09Well, we do, and I think you might have seen that before.
18:13OK, yeah, this is the census of England and Wales, 1911.
18:18And here is William.
18:21William Ball.
18:22Mm-hm.
18:22They've been married 21 years.
18:23Yep.
18:23So she will have married William not long after...
18:26Mm-hm, a couple of years after.
18:27...losing her dad.
18:28It's so...
18:29It's such a relief that she had some joy.
18:32She did.
18:33...in her kids.
18:34And there he is, my granddad, Daniel, there,
18:38who was the little one.
18:39And she died quite young herself, didn't she?
18:43She did.
18:44Bless her heart to leave all those kids behind.
18:46I know.
18:47And she'd have been very proud of my granddad.
18:50He was a wonderful man, so joyful.
18:53I want to have a massive cry.
18:54It's so... It's really moving.
18:57It's quite overwhelming.
18:58It's so moving to see these people just...
19:02Oh.
19:10What a gift to have learned about Catherine
19:13and her life growing up in the tenements in Glasgow,
19:16a life that we knew nothing about.
19:18I think the balls will now wear that with pride,
19:23that we have this strong connection to Glasgow
19:26and that we have Scottish blood running through our veins as well.
19:32I like to think that Catherine's strength and resilience
19:36is something that passed down through her kids
19:38and has then passed on generation to generation.
19:43And, you know, we think sometimes that our lives can be quite tough.
19:46You look back and think, we're so lucky.
19:58Having explored her Scottish roots through her dad's ancestors,
20:02Zoe now wants to find out about her late mother Julia's side of the family.
20:08Zoe never met her grandmother Peggy.
20:10She remembers her mum saying that Peggy spent some time in a psychiatric hospital.
20:18So these are boxes that have come from mum's house
20:21that we've cleared out.
20:23Photographs, family albums, scrapbooks, all sorts of treasures.
20:28Now, this is my mum.
20:30Bless her.
20:31With her little toy dog.
20:33It's unmistakably my mum
20:34because that smile and those bright, sparkly eyes
20:37and the perfect turned-out hair.
20:40She never lost that look.
20:42And here, Julia, aged nine, taken in Christmas 1958.
20:48So this is my mum on her wedding day with her mum.
20:53So this is Peggy.
20:56It's quite strange looking at this picture
20:58and then sort of hearing that she had mental health issues.
21:02I mean, you look at this lady here
21:03and she just seems like a real lovely lady
21:05who's very happy to see her daughter getting married.
21:08So, you know,
21:11was she well?
21:12Was she not?
21:13You know, I have no idea.
21:16Now, my mum talks a bit about this
21:18and if I'm right,
21:20this is the house
21:22where my grandma,
21:25Peg,
21:25went to work in service.
21:28What does it say on the back?
21:30Littlewood Park authored
21:32what happy days I spent here
21:34as a nursemaid.
21:38Went there in 1928.
21:40Now, that's gold, isn't it?
21:43And is this her?
21:44Is this my...
21:47grandma?
21:48Right, here we go.
21:50Now we're finding out the stuff.
21:51Ah!
21:51Margaret Bramwell Minto.
21:53I've heard the name Minto mentioned.
21:55OK.
21:57This is Peggy.
21:59So, she was Margaret.
22:00Born 15th February 1913.
22:03This was taken on her 21st birthday.
22:06What happened to her?
22:08This lovely, gorgeous, young lass.
22:17Keen to find out more about her grandma, Peg's story,
22:21Zoe is travelling to the north-east,
22:23where her mum grew up.
22:28She's meeting historian Dr Vicky Long
22:31at the University of Newcastle.
22:33Good to meet you too.
22:34Shall we head in?
22:35What have you got for me today, then?
22:36Amazing building.
22:37So, Vicky, this is Peg, my grandmother, my mum's mum,
22:43and I know very little about her.
22:47I do know that when she was quite young,
22:49she was in service.
22:50In this house, there's a nursemaid.
22:53So, I've got this document to show you,
22:55which is the 1921 census.
22:58So, there is Margaret Minto, my grandmother.
23:02Looks like the eldest of four kids here.
23:04She's eight years old.
23:05We have Edward Minto, my great-grandfather,
23:09head of the family.
23:10He's 32.
23:12So, he's working as a coal miner.
23:16Oh, gosh, he's out of work.
23:17Yeah.
23:18Right.
23:19And a lot of the pit villages,
23:20you're seeing men experiencing long-term unemployment
23:23for years on end.
23:24So, if Peg's in this situation at home,
23:27there's no money coming in, she's the eldest,
23:30she's going to have to go out to work,
23:31but maybe that's a bit of a relief as well for her
23:34to get out of this household.
23:36It says on the back here, 1928.
23:39Yeah.
23:40So, she'd have been about 15.
23:41That's it.
23:42Which seems very young, but that was quite normal.
23:45Yeah.
23:45Yeah.
23:46So, we've got an idea of her early years.
23:48I know she went on a married bill.
23:50My grandfather was a policeman,
23:51and she had three daughters.
23:53The only other thing I really know about Peg
23:56is later on in her life, she was in an institution.
24:00So, we do have her medical records from that time,
24:04which I have here.
24:07Gosh.
24:08There's a lot of her story in these pages.
24:11It really gives you a sense of how complex...
24:14Yeah.
24:14How complex her case was.
24:15Date of admission, 1963.
24:20Diagnosis on admission.
24:22Now, what does that say?
24:24That says acute mania.
24:26Mania.
24:27We move on to the next page.
24:31For some months,
24:32the patient had been excessively extravagant with money,
24:37living above her means
24:40and running up large bills unknown to her husband.
24:43Oh, my goodness me.
24:44At Easter, she visited her daughter in Lancaster
24:48and then was accused of shoplifting.
24:50Oh, Peg.
24:51After the summons,
24:53she became disinterested in home and self
24:58and fell asleep at every opportunity.
25:01She was exhausted.
25:02This continued until the day before the hearing of the case.
25:06Oh, my goodness me.
25:07So, she's up in court as well.
25:09Oh.
25:10When she suddenly changed and became cheerful, okay,
25:13she then began to express grandiose ideas
25:17and behaved in a very abnormal way.
25:22When she gave evidence in the afternoon,
25:25she was very confused
25:26and was admitted to Shotley Bridge Hospital.
25:29Patient described how upset and depressed she had been
25:33after her eldest daughter and husband and baby went to Lancashire.
25:37So, she's left at home with the youngest, my mum, who's 13, who's the only one at home.
25:43It kind of makes me feel sad for Peg, but also makes me feel sad for your mum as well.
25:48Yeah, absolutely.
25:49Your daughter left at home.
25:50As an adult, it's hard to know how to look after someone who's going through a mental health crisis.
25:55So, as a 13-year-old girl, yeah, both of them, I really feel for them.
26:00Yeah.
26:00It's kind of fascinating, isn't it, that here is a lass who came from a very impoverished
26:05working-class family, goes to work in a house for some very wealthy people.
26:11So, she's suddenly surrounded by, you know, all that grandiose behaviour.
26:18So, later on, she's probably a little bit confused.
26:22She's seen the good life.
26:24Yeah.
26:24And she wants a bit of that herself.
26:27If we maybe go to the next document, Zoe, we get more of a sense, perhaps, of a Peg's own
26:33voice
26:34about where that kind of grandiose label might have come from.
26:39Dearest Dorothy, John and family, we want you to join us on a trip to Norway.
26:47Oh, dear.
26:48I know you've always wanted to go there.
26:51Just fly up, pet, because I've just won a lawsuit against Woolworths.
26:57Oh, this is the stuff my mum would talk about.
27:01You can go with us for as long as you like.
27:04Barbara Hutton...
27:06The Woolworths heiress.
27:08...heiress will be footing the bill.
27:10Where have you found this letter?
27:12I think the reason we have this letter...
27:14...is because it's in the medical record.
27:16OK.
27:16And the reason it's in the medical record is because it wasn't sent.
27:19It's not been...
27:20No-one sent it.
27:21No.
27:21And this is...
27:22They're typically held back like this when they're seen as evidence of someone's...
27:26What's happening inside her mind.
27:29Yeah.
27:29Yeah.
27:29OK.
27:30It's an amazing demonstration of what it is like inside someone's mind who's going through something like this.
27:36My mum told me that her dad would take her to visit her mum when her mum was in this
27:40hospital.
27:41Now, how would that be as a young girl visiting a situation like that?
27:47It must have been really daunting for your mum to make those visits.
27:51But it probably was really good for Peg to see her daughter.
27:56OK.
27:56It's unusual, actually.
27:58It's still functioning as a psychiatric hospital today.
28:03Vicky has brought Zoe to St. Nicholas Hospital in Newcastle, where her grandmother Peggy spent a period of time in
28:10the 1960s.
28:12So my mum would have come here to visit my grandma in this very place.
28:17Yeah, at this hospital.
28:23If we look at this document, it gives us more of a sense of the symptoms she was displaying while
28:31she was in St. Nick's.
28:33OK.
28:33So she still has times when she has plenty of energy, is on top of the world, and other times
28:39she feels tired, depressed and sleepy and everything feels horrible.
28:43So, looking at this, it does look a little like bipolar, perhaps, disorder.
28:50We don't have her in front of us, and neither of us are psychiatrists, but it does align more with
28:56that diagnosis.
28:58So what are the kind of treatments that she would have had while she was here, and the medicines they
29:02would have given her?
29:04So we've got here puraldehyde, basically a kind of heavy-duty sedative.
29:08You're just dulling it.
29:09You're dulling the level.
29:11And what's this one here?
29:12So this one is Largactyl.
29:16Largactyl is unusual because it's the first sedative that actually does help to dispel those symptoms of psychosis.
29:24It's the first effective antipsychotic medication.
29:28So I have a bit more information.
29:30So this is a record for ECT treatment, electroconvulsive therapy.
29:36See, this is the thing.
29:38I kind of dreaded the idea that she would have gone through this.
29:42So this is quite confusing.
29:45But what we have here are indications that she's been given both a muscle relaxant and an anaesthetic.
29:53The anaesthetic obviously puts patients briefly out of consciousness.
29:58And the muscle relaxant means that you just don't see any kind of real visible convulsion taking place.
30:04So that risk of damage to muscle, to bone, to painful clenched jaws goes.
30:10So it's a more, yeah.
30:12So it's less brutal.
30:14Yeah.
30:15But I'm still intrigued.
30:16Did it work?
30:17Did ECT work for patients?
30:19People have mixed experiences with it, but many people did find it was a really effective treatment for depression.
30:29But no one quite knows why.
30:32Why.
30:32And how it works.
30:34Yeah.
30:34But it did seem to work.
30:35But it did seem to work.
30:36Would you like another letter from Peg?
30:38I'd love another letter.
30:40Is there Barbara Hutton in this letter?
30:42Bless her.
30:43Oh, okay.
30:44Dear Dr. Lawson, I will be unable to keep my appointment on Thursday, January the 14th.
30:50My daughter in Lancaster has to go into hospital.
30:54And I'm going down to look after my two little granddaughters.
30:59She's sounding really well here, isn't she?
31:02Will you please kindly make me another appointment?
31:05I have a supply of tablets and I'm keeping very well.
31:09Oh, Peg.
31:10I have been busy knitting Julie, my youngest daughter, two jumpers.
31:17I don't know if my mum still had those jumpers.
31:19And on with cardigans for Kim and Tracy.
31:22They're my cousins, Kim and Tracy.
31:23So they're June's two girls who she was going to look after.
31:28Wishing you all the best.
31:30Yours sincerely, Peggy Anderson.
31:33I'm really happy to hear she's doing well.
31:37My goodness me.
31:43Peggy, bless her heart.
31:48I'm so relieved that she was okay again.
32:05I don't see my mum's name in there as well, you know.
32:09Oh, thank you for showing me that.
32:11It's such a different letter, isn't it?
32:12Yeah, it really is.
32:14And if it was sort of something like bipolar disorder, would she have gone in and out of treatment through
32:20the rest of her life?
32:22Yeah, so we do have further records.
32:24And there is this pattern of short admissions and discharges.
32:29I do have one more document for you, Zoe.
32:32Bless her.
32:33Here we are.
32:34On the 5th of August 1979, a hospital in Lancaster.
32:40Oh, there's my mum's name.
32:44So my mum's the informant.
32:47So she had pneumonia, liver failure.
32:52Oh, a manic depressive psychosis.
32:55So she was 66, relatively young.
32:58Yeah.
32:59It's interesting because that's 1979, so I didn't see my mum during this period.
33:03So, yeah.
33:07I never knew that that's what happened.
33:11Oh, Peg.
33:14I'm so relieved, though, that she had time after with her family.
33:23You know, so that was back in 63, and she lived till 1979, and though she is young, she did
33:30come back into her family's life.
33:31My mum used to say to me, standards, darling, standards, which is what her mum used to say to her.
33:36And I'm thinking, that must have come from being in service.
33:39Standards, darling, standards.
33:41And it's all starting to fall into place now, all these characteristics, all these things my mum would say that
33:47would clearly have come from her mum.
33:49It's, um, yeah, it's sort of like the full picture.
33:53It's quite a powerful thing.
33:55It is.
34:04It's really helping me put the puzzle together about Peg's life.
34:08You know, the background she grew up in, you know, a poor, out-of-work, home-minded daughter having to
34:14go away at 15 to work.
34:15But then seeing another side of life there, exactly the opposite, which sort of helps you maybe understand what happened
34:24to her later in life.
34:26I think I was really apprehensive about seeing the hospital she was in.
34:31And in my mind, the idea of my grandma being in treatment for her mental health, I had some pretty
34:37tough ideas of how that would have been in my head.
34:41And I'm so glad that she managed to get the right treatment.
34:45She was able to live for a few years in between her visits to hospital and to have treatment.
34:52She was able to be a mother and a grandma.
34:56I really wanted to talk to mum yesterday and just be like, Mum, I understand.
35:02And I would have been able to tell her more about Peggy and what Peggy went through.
35:09It was pretty moving stuff.
35:17After learning more about her grandmother Peggy, Zoe now wants to explore her grandad Bill's side of the family, something
35:24Zoe knows nothing about.
35:27She's enlisting the help of genealogist Catherine Thompson.
35:30I've compiled this tree for you to have a look at.
35:34Oh, look. Family tree. This is fabulous.
35:38OK, so we have me, 1970. There's my dad, Johnny, and my mum, Julia.
35:43This is Peggy and her husband, Bill, and he's an Anderson.
35:48And he is the son of John Anderson and Matilda Jane Temby.
35:54So we're going up the Temby side.
35:56So she is the daughter of Albert Temby.
36:00Albert, the son of James Temby, my great-great-great-grandfather.
36:06So, who are the Tembys?
36:09Right. Well, this document here is from the 1851 census for James Temby.
36:15So it's the parish of Camborn.
36:17Where's Camborn?
36:19And it's 249 Centenary Row.
36:23So here we have Joanna Temby, profession, coppermine girl.
36:32Wow.
36:34And then Julia Temby, 26, Mary A. Temby is 21.
36:40Richard Temby, nine years old, and a coppermine boy.
36:45That's very young, isn't it?
36:46Yeah, it is.
36:47And there is James Temby, my great-great-great-grandfather,
36:51who at this point, in 1851, is only two years old.
36:56Joanna's the head of the family there, but all the rest of them are lodgers.
37:02So how are they related?
37:03Do we know?
37:04Are they brothers and sisters?
37:06Is Joanna the mother of Richard and James?
37:11Possibly, but I don't know.
37:13There's more mystery to unravel.
37:16There is.
37:16Oh, hang on a minute.
37:18Cornwall?
37:19Yeah.
37:20Camborn is in Cornwall.
37:22It is, yeah.
37:23So if I want to find out more about the Tembys,
37:27I'm imagining I've got to go to Cornwall.
37:29Yeah, yeah, find out, yeah.
37:31Hooray!
37:33Having thought her granddad's family were all from the northeast,
37:36Zoe has discovered that her three-times great-grandfather,
37:40James Temby, was actually from Cornwall.
37:44She now wants to uncover the mystery
37:46of who James was living with in 1851
37:50and who his parents were.
37:54Leslie, hello.
37:55She is following her route to Redruth,
37:57where she is meeting genealogist and social historian
38:00Dr Leslie Trotter.
38:03It's been really challenging to try and find out about James.
38:06And what we've discovered so far is that
38:09Joanna, Julia and Mary-Anne are sisters.
38:12Okay.
38:12And all the evidence is pointing to the fact that it's Julia
38:17who is James' mother.
38:19Okay, Julia, which is my mum's name.
38:22So take a look at this record.
38:23Yeah.
38:24Certified copy of an entry of birth.
38:28So name, if any, is John and he's a boy.
38:33Ah, so it's not, he's not James when he's born.
38:36Not at this point.
38:37He's gone by a different name as he's gone slightly older.
38:39As he's got older.
38:40Which isn't that unusual.
38:42It does happen in families.
38:43And Julia Temby is his mother.
38:46Name and surname of father.
38:48There's, it's blank.
38:50Oh, goodness me.
38:52So in those days, would this be quite scandalous?
38:56Yes.
38:57A lot of women in this time wouldn't have kept their redisement children.
39:00Oh, you're joking.
39:02Thank goodness they had each other as sisters, I hope.
39:06You're giving me a look.
39:07I'm thinking, oh gosh.
39:08It's actually really unusual because you've got a really strong female household here.
39:13And they keep their children.
39:15Yes.
39:15They were a family unit living together and going out to work.
39:20And they're working in the local copper mines.
39:23So do you know any more?
39:25Well, we do.
39:26There's another document I want to show you.
39:28But I'm going to need your help.
39:29Okay.
39:31This is going to be heavy.
39:33Luckily, I've been working on my core.
39:35And we'll carefully support it.
39:37Right.
39:38So put that down.
39:39Look at the lock on it.
39:42Ah.
39:43What have we got here?
39:46Julia Temby, James's mother.
39:49So she's been committed by the magistrates for an offence.
39:54Ah!
39:56Assaulting Mary Gundry.
39:59She's assaulted someone.
40:01She has.
40:02So at this point, 1851, James is about three, two or three years old.
40:07Two years old.
40:08Um, sentence.
40:09Oh, this is her sentence.
40:11Six weeks or pay?
40:13Two pound, fourteen.
40:15Two pounds, fourteen shillings and sixpence.
40:18I mean, how huge a sum is that to a last like this?
40:21That would have been the equivalent of about two, possibly three months wages.
40:27Oh, gosh, that's a lot of money there.
40:28That's a lot of money.
40:29There's no way she's going to be able to pay that.
40:32So she's been given six weeks imprisonment or this fine to pay.
40:37Now, is that common for an assault?
40:40Well, it's really interesting.
40:41Have a look at the previous entries.
40:43OK, so above, Constance Bennett assaulted Mary-Anne Luke.
40:50She got 14 days.
40:53OK, so that's a lot less.
40:56It's very strange.
40:57There's something odd going on here.
40:59OK.
40:59Because the assault is not so bad that it's made the newspapers.
41:04If you compare on the next page what they say about Constance and what they say about Julia.
41:10OK.
41:10So let's have a look.
41:12Ah, Constance is married with one child.
41:15And Julia below.
41:16OK.
41:17And Julia, single, base child.
41:20And what does that mean, base child?
41:23She's got an illegitimate child.
41:24An illegitimate child.
41:25OK.
41:26So, totally different treatment for a woman who's married.
41:30Yeah, we don't know the circumstances of the assault.
41:34But there is this suspicion that she's being judged more harshly because...
41:40Of her circumstances.
41:42Because of her circumstances.
41:43Which prison?
41:44This would be Bodmin Jail.
41:46Bodmin Jail.
41:47The county jail.
41:49Ah.
41:56The big question at this point is, what happened to baby James?
42:01Was he in the prison with her and able to stay with his mother?
42:06Or was he put into the workhouse?
42:08Or, you know, who knows?
42:10Fingers crossed.
42:11I'm going to be able to find out a little bit more.
42:17Zoe has travelled to the edge of Bodmin Moor in Cornwall.
42:20To the jail where her four-times great-grandmother was imprisoned.
42:24She's meeting its general manager, Jess Malton.
42:28Jess!
42:29Zoe!
42:30Welcome to Bodmin Jail.
42:35The jail is now a museum.
42:39Watch your head.
42:40OK.
42:41Head down.
42:42Handle it.
42:43What you're walking into, Zoe, is the former women's wing of this prison.
42:49It eventually became the naval wing, this one.
42:52But for your relatives, this is where the women would have been bought.
42:58Goodness me.
42:59You really can't see anything down here, can you?
43:02No.
43:02And that's deliberate.
43:04This is the dark landing, or reception landing.
43:08So when you're brought into this prison, you're brought into darkness.
43:11And you're going to stay down here until you prove you can behave yourself.
43:16Really?
43:17So if you're well-behaved, there's a chance you might get to slightly better quarters?
43:23Upstairs are three more levels, and there's a glass roof on this building, so the better
43:28behaved you are, the closer to the light you'll move.
43:31And that's the key to this place.
43:33It's a reform prison.
43:34It's the first one to be built in the UK, and its whole premise was to improve your behaviour
43:41and change your outlook in life.
43:45So, Jess, is it likely that James would have come in here with Julia?
43:50There was nowhere else for him to go, and no other means to support him.
43:54It's heartbreaking, isn't it?
43:56Well, I can show you an example of the kind of cell they might both have been in.
44:00It's just behind you.
44:01OK, let's have a look.
44:04Oh, my goodness me.
44:06This is...
44:10Gosh.
44:12Stone all around you.
44:14Very, very dark.
44:17And a simple, simple bed.
44:20Made from straw, obviously the mattress.
44:23Very drafty.
44:25Yeah.
44:28That's tough, tough living, isn't it?
44:32I think it's pretty devastating to think of a two-year-old living in these conditions.
44:37It must have been terrifying for both of them.
44:40They'd have come through the main gatehouse, five sets of gates.
44:44They'd have had their hair shaved off to stop head lice.
44:49They'd have been given their prison uniform.
44:52Was it very sort of strict conditions that heads down and working?
44:54It's really strict conditions.
44:56It's a silent prison.
44:57There is no talking.
44:59Trying to keep a two-year-old quiet, I should think, was quite a challenge.
45:03So it really is the whole...
45:05The whole act here.
45:07Yeah.
45:07Her behaviour is marked as orderly.
45:11So she's made an effort for her and for James
45:15to get herself out of here as quickly as she can.
45:18That's a big relief.
45:23Following in the footsteps of her ancestors,
45:25Zoe is staying the night in one of the cells in Bodmin Jail.
45:29Luckily for her, part of the historic prison is now a hotel.
45:48As I fell asleep last night, I couldn't help but think about Julia and James
45:53and how their experience would be very different to mine
45:55because this is a hotel now and I was under a 15-tog duvet.
46:00And I will admit, I did sleep with the light on.
46:04It's not spooky at all.
46:08For little James, you know, he was two years old.
46:10What a terrifying place to be living.
46:14And you wonder how much that affected the rest of his life.
46:18I hope that things got a little better for him.
46:34Zoe has come to Cornwall's south coast
46:37to meet up with Dr Leslie Trotter again.
46:41Leslie has uncovered what happened to James Temby
46:44after his turbulent early years.
46:48Well, let's look at this document.
46:52It's a marriage!
46:54Good news!
46:55OK, let's see.
46:56When is this?
46:58Where's the date?
46:59It's the 6th October.
47:01Yeah.
47:02And it's actually happening within the month of Julia leaving prison.
47:07My four-time great-grandmother marrying a man called William Ivey.
47:13Let's hope he's a good sort.
47:15Well, he's a widower.
47:17Yeah.
47:17And he's much older than she is.
47:20OK.
47:20Julia's about 25 now.
47:22He's 49.
47:23OK.
47:24He's recently lost his wife, but he has seven children.
47:29Wow.
47:30So he's in need of a new mother for his children.
47:33For his children.
47:34It sounds quite hectic.
47:36And kids.
47:37And it gets more so.
47:38OK.
47:39Because Julia and William go on to have another six children.
47:43My goodness me!
47:44And there's more.
47:45There's more good news.
47:46More good news.
47:47I can't believe it.
47:49Oh.
47:51It's weddings a go-go.
47:52We are now in 1867.
47:56James Temby, 19 years old, marries Mary Ann Rogers, my three times great-grandmother, who's 21 years old.
48:06James is now a lead miner.
48:07Do they have any kids?
48:09Ah.
48:11Oh, I hope so.
48:13The only thing with this show is you never know how long this happy streak is going to last.
48:17I'm making the most of it, Leslie.
48:18We're doing all right.
48:20So, 1868, January the 7th.
48:25William James Rogers, male, is born to James Temby and Mary Ann Rogers.
48:33Not long after that wedding in 67.
48:36Not quite long enough, is it?
48:37Not quite long enough.
48:38But...
48:39He's doing the right thing.
48:40Yeah.
48:40He's doing the right thing by her.
48:41Ooh.
48:42Hang on a minute.
48:44On the island of Guernsey.
48:46How on earth do they end up in Guernsey?
48:50This is a very crucial time in Cornish mining history.
48:56In the 1860s, competition from foreign mines led to a collapse in the price of Cornish copper.
49:04This forced pits to close and thousands to lose their livelihood.
49:10Around 20% of Cornwall's male population left to find work elsewhere, often taking their families with them.
49:19Guernsey had a thriving granite industry, and there were opportunities in the quarries for hard-working men like James Temby.
49:31James and Mary Ann have gone over with her mother and her stepfather, and also her sister and her husband,
49:40so they've gone over as a family unit.
49:41And you're so rooting for them to do well.
49:45Does this carry on, Leslie?
49:48Unfortunately.
49:50Oh, I knew we had a run of too much good luck.
49:52We have James Temby, his wife, Mary Ann there, and their two children.
49:58When sent, with a sent, so on the 16th of August, 1869, they have been sent to Plymouth.
50:09Length of residence here, two years, oh, goodness me, reasons why sent, destitute.
50:17Yes.
50:17So the work has dried up.
50:19And it's not just them being sent back.
50:21OK, so the whole family group.
50:24Are being deported from Guernsey because they...
50:27Actually being deported from Guernsey?
50:29Because they can't support themselves any more.
50:31And Guernsey was rather notorious, and at this point in time, they're sending about 10,000 people out of the
50:37islands.
50:39Widows, children, foreigners, anybody who might be a drain on the community.
50:44So they're going back, and are they going to be able to find work back home?
50:49Well, let me show you the next doctor.
50:54Another birth.
50:571875.
50:59In the county of Durham.
51:02OK, so they have moved again.
51:05Matilda Jane, such a lovely name, is born to James Temby and Mary Ann Temby, occupation of father, coal miner.
51:16Starting to see now how my mum's side of the family were in that area.
51:22And that was a very common move for people, miners from Cornwall at that point.
51:28The mark of James Temby, father, Lane Ends, Hunwick.
51:33That's about 400 miles from where we are now.
51:35From here?
51:36Yeah.
51:37Flippin' heck.
51:44Zoe has discovered that by 1875, her three-times great-grandparents, James and Mary Ann Temby, had moved to Hunwick
51:52in County Durham, near to where her mum, Julia, grew up.
52:00It's strange, I'm actually following the footsteps of my three-times great-grandfather, James and his family now, travelling from
52:06Cornwall to County Durham.
52:09It's pretty impressive to see how far a family would travel to find work right across the country.
52:15I'm really invested in their future now.
52:18These are my people.
52:20I need to know they're OK.
52:23One man who knows James and Mary Ann's new home in Hunwick well is local author, John Pallister.
52:30Hello, John.
52:31Hello, nice to meet you.
52:32Lovely to meet you.
52:33I'm hoping you might be able to help me.
52:35My three-times great-grandfather, James Temby, and his family moved up here from Cornwall, late 1800s, and I believe
52:43they settled in Lane Ends.
52:47This is Lane Ends.
52:48When your family was here in the 1870s, this whole area would have been full of houses, but all the
52:53houses were knocked down.
52:54And so I've got here an 1890 trade directory.
52:58Can you see anybody on there related to you?
53:00So we've got all the names.
53:02There's James, there's the Stitts and the Stobbs, the Sunters, and there's James Temby.
53:08There you are.
53:08You found him.
53:09He's a fruiterer.
53:10That's basically a greengrocer.
53:12Ah, so I guess if all these families are moving up here, everyone's working in the coal industry, more people,
53:17you need your services.
53:20Yeah.
53:20A greengrocer, is he still working down the mines?
53:23Yeah, at that time, a lot of families, the wives would run the shops and the men would be down
53:28the mines.
53:29OK.
53:29So they'd be proper entrepreneurs.
53:36John has arranged for Zoe to meet another Temby descendant in the local pub.
53:44Hello.
53:46Hi.
53:46I'm Zoe.
53:48Hello.
53:48You might be a relative of mine.
53:50I am.
53:50It's so lovely to meet you.
53:51What's your name?
53:52My name's Karen.
53:53Karen, I'm going to give you a hug.
53:54Oh.
53:55James and Mary-Ann Temby are Karen's two times great-grandparents and Zoe's three times great-grandparents,
54:02making Karen and Zoe third cousins once removed.
54:07So this is the greengrocers that James and Mary-Ann Temby set up when they moved up from down south.
54:13There she is.
54:15There it is.
54:16Oh, you can see some of the supplies in the winter.
54:18It's a nice stack of eggs there.
54:20And we're looking here at Mary-Ann Temby.
54:24There she is.
54:26So outside the greengrocers, when James was probably down the mine during the day.
54:31Absolutely.
54:32A coal miner.
54:33So there she is.
54:34She's got a pinny on.
54:35She's ready to work.
54:37It's so wonderful to see their faces.
54:39Makes it real, doesn't it?
54:40It really does.
54:41OK.
54:42And there's one more document, Zoe, for you.
54:47Oh.
54:48The death of Mr. James Temby in 1920.
54:53By the death of Mr. James Temby, which took place on Friday morning last, Hunwick has lost one of its
55:01standards.
55:02Oh.
55:04Makes it real good for my mum.
55:07The deceased gentleman was well known in the district and was held in the highest esteem.
55:12Isn't this fabulous tweet about this man?
55:16Hailing from the south of England over 40 years ago, Mr. Temby has resided in Hunwick and the surrounding district
55:24ever since.
55:25His death occurred at the age of 73 years.
55:29He leaves a family of three sons and two daughters, all married.
55:36Oh, James.
55:38He lived till he was 73.
55:41Isn't it wonderful to know that he was so respected?
55:45Lovely, isn't it?
55:46Him and his family.
55:47Absolutely.
55:49And that they did, you know, they moved around so much to try and find work.
55:54Yeah.
55:55So he could feed his family.
55:57But they found their place.
55:59And they settled.
56:02James.
56:02Bless you.
56:03Lovely to see, isn't it?
56:04Really lovely to see.
56:12You know, I started out knowing so little about my mum's and dad's families.
56:18And the adventure I thought I was going on or the places I thought I might go to, well, it's
56:25turned out that I was quite wrong.
56:29I've always had that thing of, it doesn't matter where you live, it's the people you're with and what you're
56:35doing there.
56:36And you can make a home anywhere that you have to be.
56:39And that is something that I have seen from my ancestors that they have very much had to do to
56:45follow to wherever life took them, where the work was, you know, to survive.
56:53And the strength and resilience that they've shown and that family was really important to all of them.
57:01And it's kind of been really hard to do this without mum, because she was so part of this experience.
57:11And I want to ring her up at the end of every day and just say, guess what, guess what,
57:15I found out now.
57:16And I know she'd be really chuffed.
57:51And I know she'd be really chuffed.