- 16 hours ago
The big talking point of this episode of To The Point is the controversy over the removal of actor-singer Diljit Dosanjh-starrer film Satluj from OTT platform ZEE5 just days after its digital release.
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00:00This evening, joining me, Swati Chaturvedi, senior journalist, author, Karanbir Singh, Siddhu, KBS Siddhu, IAS,
00:07former special chief secretary, Punjab, was deputy commissioner of Amritsar from 1992 to 96,
00:13the crucial period that this film also depicts.
00:17He was the DC of Tarantaran district at the time when Jaswan Singh Kalra was abducted from his residence in
00:25Amritsar in 1995,
00:27who's the man who ordered a magisterial inquiry. He's back on our show. Welcome, sir.
00:31I also have Mahindar Singh Rehwal, senior vice president, Shirmani Akali Dal, former cabinet minister, Ramneet Singh Maan, political analyst.
00:39Here's what we've been trying to do over the course of the last week, try and get you all sides
00:42of the story.
00:44There is a section, Swati, which seems to suggest this portrays only one side of the story.
00:49Those were difficult times. India was fighting not just terrorists, but a possible proxy war emanating from Pakistan.
00:55And it needed the kind of brutality that was shown by the terrorists that were backed by Pakistan at the
01:02time.
01:04Priti, thank you so much for having me on your show. And it's very, very kind of you.
01:10I would say that this is the worst pin that we can give.
01:14We insult ourselves when we do that as a democracy, as citizens.
01:18You know, what is the line? What is the line that separates a soldier from a terrorist?
01:24The line of the law, the fact that, you know, that we believe in a rule of law, we believe
01:29in trials.
01:30And what was going on in Punjab at that point? I mean, I mean, I mean, you know, journalism is
01:34not about personal stories.
01:36It's about telling a story. But I want just to take your indulgence to tell you a personal story.
01:40I was maybe in class one when the 84 riots happened. Both my parents were in the government.
01:45We used to live in Chanakya Puri in Satyamar, which is a highly fortified senior government colony.
01:50Our neighbor was a senior Sikh IS officer for four days, Priti.
01:54And I didn't understand what was going on, the enormity of it.
01:58He couldn't, after the riots, he and his family couldn't go out and get milk from Mother Dairy.
02:02My family, I think for a week, quietly used to go and, you know, ask in the morning how much
02:08milk they needed and go and get it for them.
02:10So, you know, this was the reality of what this film portrayed and how much of a nanny state are
02:16we going to be?
02:16When are we going to reckon with our history? When are we going to come to terms with it?
02:21Now, you know, film, which has been, it's a film. If you don't like it, don't watch it. Make another
02:26film.
02:27But this is ridiculous. This nanny state, you know, and the platform which pulled it.
02:31I mean, how can the government say they have nothing to do with it?
02:33It has, the owner of that platform, the promoter, was an MP, was earlier a Raj Sabah MP with BJP
02:40backing.
02:41So, you know, I mean, it is clearly a case of a nanny state saying that even 40 years after.
02:47I think we are doing Punjabis and Punjab discredit by saying that, you know, this film is going to foment
02:52anything of Khalistan.
02:53What happened then was wrong. We should all admit it.
02:56As a democracy, we should have broad enough shoulders to put it in perspective.
03:01And watch the film.
03:02All right. You know, Mr. Sidhu, do you want to come in, you know, into this conversation?
03:06Because you were at the point of administration, crucial districts at the, you know, the juncture,
03:13when insurgency was possibly at its peak in Punjab.
03:17One set would say that this is only one side of the story.
03:24It hasn't been shown.
03:26The sheer fact that Jaswan Singh Kalra also ran what many would think a pro-Khalistani magazine had pro-Khalistani
03:35sentiments.
03:35But all of that aside, the fact, Mr. Sidhu, is that this has been the lived reality, an example that
03:41was given by Swati there,
03:43with thousands in Punjab.
03:45Even if it is one side of the story, there has to be a certain amount of reckoning and catharsis
03:50that we give to it.
03:51And what's the big deal if we actually showcase it?
03:55Because is the appropriate answer eulogizing the people who governed and administered at the time, like KPS Gill,
04:02because you yourself know there were multiple shades of gray on either sides of the divide.
04:07And what's wrong in telling one side of the story?
04:11Thank you for having me again.
04:13But I will not go into the details because people know what the movie was about.
04:18And, of course, Mr. Kalra was the general secretary of the mainstream party, the Shuramnika Kali Dal,
04:24and he was representing the human rights wing.
04:26It is nobody's case then and nobody's case now that extrajudicial killing, mysterious disappearances,
04:33or even things like fake encounters is justified by any stretch of imagination.
04:39Now, having seen the movie now since your last show,
04:42it focuses on something which is judicially established,
04:46and six Punjab police officers are still undergoing life imprisonment
04:50because their entire case up to Supreme Court has been, their appeals have been dismissed.
04:55But if you want to tell the whole story, now I don't expect a movie to tell the whole story,
05:00but hypothetically speaking, there would be mass killing of people of a particular community.
05:07Mr. Grewal is here in his own district.
05:10In Dresi ground, RSS Shaka was attacked.
05:13And then trains stopped, Kilaraipur and so on.
05:17And hundreds, literally hundreds of people brought down and gunned down.
05:22Now, if in those circumstances you want to tell all that story also,
05:26that is also a truth to which you need to expose.
05:29What really comes out of this movie is as if there was a selective and a state,
05:35and when I say state, I mean Indian Union as a state rather than a state government or a central
05:40government,
05:41has unleashed a kind of a reign of terror where a kind of a genocide was taking place.
05:46So, if you have to tell the story, please tell the whole story.
05:50There are DIG rank officers killed in active encounters, two SSVs of Patiala.
05:54Mr. Sidhu, I appreciate the point that you are trying to make.
05:57I understand that those were very difficult trying times.
06:00There were families of police officers that were being targeted as well.
06:04But the larger question is, sir, just because it tells the story of one particular individual
06:09at that point of time and the side of the story where thousands of Jajsiks suffered,
06:14nobody once is denying what happened to the Hindus or the Punjabis in Punjab
06:20or the ramifications of that on the state of terrorism, nobody is denying that truth.
06:25That could very well be the content of another story.
06:28But the sheer fact that this is a slice of lived reality and life for a lot of Jajsiks,
06:34and today may be catharsis for some, why stop it?
06:39Basically, if it boils down to the same thing, then there would be demands for, if you want,
06:45you know, tanks rolling into the Golden Temple, have a documentary on that and the Sikh riots.
06:50And also, then someone will be eulogizing the killers of General Vaidya and Mrs. Gandhi.
06:55The question is, what intention the producer has or the artistic expression person has?
07:00What is the impact on a large stretch of population within and outside Punjab,
07:06people who were kids or not born, who have not lived through the reality?
07:10What are we trying to do?
07:11Punjab has been through worse time.
07:13Punjab has healed.
07:15And this has caused some damage.
07:17We are going to heal.
07:18We are going to survive this.
07:19We are going to revive Punjab and we are going to thrive.
07:21But having said that, what is the overall objective?
07:24And if the state authority, I mean, the learned panellists have talked about it in any state,
07:31if the government were to be a mute spectator, of course, now it is not even clear as to,
07:35you know, who's pulled it down, whether there's a legal statutory order pulling it down
07:38or whether the better sense prevailed with the OTT platform,
07:42or even the producer or director may have,
07:44or it could have been a strategy of there to market this for wider audiences.
07:48That is, apart from the fact, but...
07:51Well, I doubt, I doubt Mr. Singh,
07:53anybody wants their film to be pirated because, you know,
07:56and I'll bring in a point because you actually saw the film after we did the show.
08:00That means after the film was banned and was taken down.
08:02So you've also seen the show on a platform which is not supposed to be seen.
08:07And it is fine because that's what everybody is doing.
08:09So I doubt if the producers or the makers would want this as a publicity
08:13because they're losing a lot of money in that.
08:16But Swati wants to come in before I get it.
08:18Allow me to bring in our other guest.
08:19But Swati, you know, you wanted to interject before I go to our political guest.
08:24Just two minutes, patience.
08:25I want to bring in Swati back into this conversation.
08:27Swati, many today who are watching this broadcast will suggest
08:30there's a fine line between freedom of speech
08:32and portraying what has been the lived reality of a few
08:35where national security comes into question,
08:39especially at a time where a state is election-bound,
08:42where the film or the sentiment of the film could be weaponized for political gain.
08:48Priti, again, this is very important, what you just said, election-bound.
08:51Because last elections we had Urtah, Punjab.
08:53Remember, there was a huge controversy about that as well.
08:55You know, we are citizens in a democracy.
08:57We are not obdurate children or bombless children
09:00or slightly, you know, mentally retarded children
09:03that the government has to protect us.
09:06Everybody, I think everybody in Punjab is fully aware of what happened.
09:09And I think everybody, let's give Punjabi some credit.
09:13Punjab has put that period, that awful period, totally behind it,
09:18and Punjab has moved on.
09:19I think we should all move on in the sense of allowing,
09:22you know, truth and reconciliation to happen.
09:24Why was there no protest when the Kashmir files released?
09:27I mean, that was terrible, banal propaganda.
09:29But there was nobody banned it.
09:31The government recommended it.
09:33There was, you know, the tickets were sold cheaper.
09:37So, you know, why these double standards, Preeti?
09:40I mean, either we have FOE or we don't have FOE.
09:43Currently, it seems that one point of view is allowed.
09:46Anything else which is even a lived reality is not allowed.
09:49No, no, fair point.
09:50The fact is, Indian cinema is no stranger to propaganda.
09:52And it does seem that possibly only one side of the propaganda is allowed
09:57while the other one is blocked.
09:58And that's where the questions arise.
10:00You know, good for the gander, good for the goose.
10:02Just going to our political guests right now.
10:04Mr. Greval, some would think today that your party is trying to weaponize content
10:10that could actually ignite a fire in Punjab.
10:16Preeti, I'm sorry to say it's totally wrong.
10:18It's just if you want to kill a dog, give it a bad name and kill it.
10:23The fact is that I just want to ask the people through your channel,
10:28Khalra was neither a terrorist nor an anti-nationalist.
10:31He was a human right activist.
10:35People would like to know why he became the victim,
10:38a person who is fighting for human rights of others.
10:41He became a victim of human rights by the state repression.
10:45People couldn't understand.
10:47What I could as a public man or as a lawyer can understand,
10:52after killing of Bhan Singh on the 31st of August,
10:55state reacted and finished this man for no fault of his.
10:59And if the Jesus made a picture on him, what's the wrong?
11:04Heavens are not going to foil.
11:06Those who criticize that is the white side of the story,
11:09they can show the other side of the story.
11:11Today, some people say,
11:13Nathuram Ghotseh is a hero.
11:15Some say he was a murderer of Mahatma Gandhi.
11:18Everybody has their own right.
11:19But Sikhs in Punjab feels that they were victim of the state repression.
11:2525,000 young boys, ladies and persons got missing.
11:31And Khalra was doing a wonderful job.
11:34And he established that even in only three cremation grounds,
11:392,200 persons were shown as unidentified.
11:43But their addresses were given below
11:45because government won't give them a good for cremation.
11:49See, what this is going on.
11:51And if the Jeet Dushan took the courage
11:54to bring this to the notice,
11:56people at large in the Punjab,
11:59that Punjab passed through this time,
12:01and even then they are surviving
12:03and remaining together as a community,
12:06I think why there's two end cry,
12:09you end cry.
12:10Ramneet Singh Maan,
12:11let's turn this question around.
12:13If this film had released,
12:14possibly it would have gone down
12:16with just a few seeing it,
12:17or not as many as the controversy in the current context.
12:21Because censorship only piques curiosity.
12:24In banning, the films usually become bigger.
12:28You seem to be of the point of view
12:30that this is the best thing for Punjab.
12:32It's proving to be the opposite right now.
12:37You're on mute, sir. Unmute yourself.
12:42Yeah, good evening to you
12:43and good evening to my fellow panelists.
12:45Yes, I think banning this movie
12:48is akin to underestimating,
12:51grossly underestimating the maturity
12:53of the Punjabi audience and the Indian audience.
12:56I mean, we've seen the very dark era in Punjab
12:59and we've gotten over it.
13:01And no matter how bitter
13:02or how uncomfortable the truth is,
13:04truth be told.
13:05Okay.
13:06And I agree also that there have been extrajudicial killings,
13:10not just of Sikh youth,
13:12but also of Hindus.
13:14Like, you know, the gentleman before me mentioned
13:16that a train was stopped,
13:18similarly buses were stopped
13:19and Hindus were pulled down
13:20in a Pulwama-like incident.
13:24But for 84, we don't blame every Hindu.
13:27So similarly for that,
13:28we cannot blame every Sikh.
13:30And this is a story which is true.
13:32And if there is an exaggeration,
13:34if there is glorification of a murder,
13:36that should be condemned also.
13:37But that is for people,
13:39whether they wish to see this movie or not,
13:41but banning it has created more curiosity.
13:44And it has given such political mobilization
13:46that people who would not have,
13:48in usual course, watched this movie
13:50are now going to be either watching it at home
13:53or they'll be getting a public view of it.
13:55Like the Shiromani Khalidal
13:57and the Shiromani Gurdwara Prabhada Committee
13:58are planning to take it to the every village of Punjab.
14:02So I believe banning the movie is counterproductive.
14:05It should not have happened to begin with.
14:07Truth be told, people deserve to know the truth.
14:10And, well, yes,
14:12we need responsible storytelling.
14:14Punjab deserves peace.
14:15It is a very well and very hard-earned piece.
14:20This piece has come at the cost of a lot of bloodshed.
14:22But responsible storytelling is also subjective.
14:25And, you know, somebody's story,
14:27there are multiple stories that came out of that period.
14:30And just once in Kalra was one such story.
14:33But having said that, Swati,
14:34and, you know, I want to bring you in.
14:36And Mr. Siddhu, once again, very briefly...
14:37But there has never been a closure.
14:38There has never been a closure.
14:39There has never been a truth and reconciliation commission.
14:42Fair point.
14:42As a matter of fact, after 97,
14:44when the Public People's Commission
14:45was established by Justice Kuldeep Singh
14:47and other former judges,
14:50you know, the then Punjab government
14:52had interjected it,
14:53got a stay order from the Punjab and the High Court
14:55and stopped the hearings.
14:58No, I hear you, Ramneet Singh Maan.
15:00But, you know, Swati,
15:01to bring you in certain points in this film,
15:03some would say,
15:05are worrisome or, you know,
15:07should have been avoided.
15:08The celebration of the assassination of a chief minister.
15:12There are certain points that could be disturbing
15:14and that's possibly what Mr. Siddhu is also pointing out.
15:19Well, fair point, Preeti, absolutely.
15:21You know, but the point is,
15:23it has already gone through what is called a censoring process.
15:26So, you know, they've asked for those cuts.
15:28I don't know if those cuts have been done.
15:29I have not seen the film.
15:31But my simple point, Preeti,
15:33is that while we should not be tolerating jubilation
15:35of any kind of violence or assassinations,
15:38again, it is a reality that it has happened.
15:41Fair point.
15:41And number two, you know,
15:42we have also got a very, you know,
15:45we have a middle class sort of
15:47tacit acceptance of encountered deaths.
15:49That is wrong, Preeti.
15:50I mean, that is something
15:51that I think we need to, as a country, get out of.
15:53Extra-judice should killings.
15:54You know, we should not be giving.
15:55Swati, I have less time.
15:56Mr. Siddhu, 15 seconds, sir.
15:58Final points.
15:59Say, I mean, if you took the heroes,
16:01for instance, Hari Singh Nalwa,
16:03arguably the best general of Maharaj Aranjeet Singh,
16:05the SGPC,
16:06has taken objection to Bursali Studios
16:09making a movie on that.
16:10Why should we not do that?
16:12And similarly, while the star witness,
16:14SPU Kuldeep Singh,
16:16was being hounded
16:17by people who people believe was,
16:20you know, Punjab police,
16:21Saraprakash Singh Barlow,
16:22I said, he was the chief minister.
16:24So, you know, politics is always going to come in.
16:27Now, Punjab has had enough of it.
16:29Let the political parties fight on agenda,
16:31which has got to do with the drugs,
16:32youth, employment.
16:33Fair point.
16:33But that doesn't quite happen, Mr. Siddhu.
16:35You know that better, don't you?
16:36Mr. Grewal is raising his hand up
16:38on exactly on Q.
16:40Yes, Mr. Grewal, 20 seconds, sir.
16:42Preeti, I just want to say one thing.
16:44You can well imagine that one of the accused
16:47who was undergoing a life imprisonment,
16:51the main accused, Jaspal Singh,
16:53has been made to flee this country.
16:55In 2022, he got bailed,
16:58and he never turned to the jail after that.
17:00See, this type of attitude and behavior
17:04of the governments of the time
17:06create an impression in the mind
17:10that the community doesn't deserve
17:14deserve to be called as equal citizens.
17:16Who is bothering?
17:18Okay.
17:18It is for the first time today
17:19that it came in media
17:21that Jaspal Singh, DSP,
17:23the main accused,
17:24is fleeing,
17:25and his house at Jalander is locked,
17:27and nobody is ready to...
17:27All right.
17:28Ramneet Singh, maan, 20 seconds, sir.
17:29I need to close the debate there.
17:31No, see,
17:34be it as it may,
17:35but truth be told,
17:37this is freedom.
17:39This is democracy after all.
17:40You don't like the movie,
17:41don't watch the movie.
17:42You don't like the movie,
17:44produce another movie.
17:45Give a counter story.
17:46It doesn't matter.
17:47The Indian audience is mature enough
17:49to understand and see through it.
17:51Fair point.
17:52I appreciate all four of you
17:54for taking the time out
17:54and joining us this evening.
17:56I'm going to leave it for our viewers
17:57to decide which side of the divide
17:59that they stand on.
18:00We can't really recommend
18:01that you watch the film
18:02because then you'll have to go
18:03to Pirate of Leans,
18:04but with what we have been told,
18:06most have already watched it.