- 3 hours ago
Ejiofor joined Nisha Ganatra, Dan Gilroy, Gavin Hood, Stephen Merchant and Lulu Wang for the panel at the 2019 Sundance Film Festival.
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Short filmTranscript
00:04Rebecca Ford
00:05Guys, thanks so much for joining us. I'm Rebecca Ford.
00:07I have six extremely talented filmmakers here.
00:10I don't even know how we have this much talent under one roof.
00:14But I'm going to start right here with Tiwetel Ejiofor.
00:16You probably know him from his very wonderful acting career,
00:20but he made his directorial debut at Sundance this year
00:24with the boy who harnessed the wind.
00:32Up next, Nisha Ganatra, whose wonderful comedy
00:36starring Mindy Kaling and Emma Thompson,
00:38premiered here called Late Night.
00:45And Dan Gilroy, who everyone knows is a wonderful writer-director,
00:50and he's here with Velvet Buzzsaw,
00:52starring Jake Gyllenhaal and Rene Russo.
00:59Lulu Wang, whose beautiful drama starring Awkwafina,
01:03called The Farewell, premiered at Sundance this year.
01:06Thank you so much.
01:11Steven Merchant, who's here with his film Fighting With My Family,
01:15which stars a small actor known as The Rock, you may have heard of,
01:20and Florence Pugh in a wonderful leading role.
01:28And finally, Gavin Hood, who you probably know from many of his films,
01:32but he's here with a new film called Official Secrets,
01:34which stars Keira Knightley.
01:40So, guys, I have lots of questions for everyone,
01:42and then we'll have about ten minutes of audience questions at the end,
01:45so if you've got something to ask them,
01:47we'll have a little time right at the end for that.
01:50Nisha, I do want to start with the most recent news.
01:52Your film was bought in a very exciting deal to Amazon,
01:58overnight after its premiere.
01:59What was that experience like for you?
02:01That was, I mean, it was incredible,
02:03because you always hope that when you make a movie,
02:05as many people as possible will see it.
02:07But you also read about these Sundance midnight deals,
02:10and the overnight bidding wars,
02:11and so they'd actually be like,
02:12oh, this is happening, this is a real thing.
02:14Now it goes on, and then at five in the morning,
02:16it was like, Amazon's doing it,
02:18and it was just like, your text messages in your phone
02:21just started blowing up, and everything was so exciting,
02:24just to know that this movie's going to be seen by everybody
02:27that Amazon reaches is incredible.
02:30Well, congrats.
02:30Awesome.
02:31Awesome.
02:35So guys, I'd like to start sort of with the beginning
02:38of the process for you.
02:40How do you know when you have to make a movie,
02:42when this is a story you have to tell,
02:44and you've got to do it no matter what?
02:48Who's going to answer?
02:49Well, if I have mortgage payments,
02:53then I'll just take whatever's on offer.
02:56No, in this instance, this was a very unusual film,
02:59because it began life as a documentary that was on British TV
03:02about this real-life family of British wrestlers.
03:06I'm not a fan of wrestling.
03:07I've never followed wrestling.
03:08And it was watched, not by me, but by Dwayne The Rock Johnson,
03:12who was in a hotel room in England and saw it.
03:15And coming from a wrestling family,
03:17sort of saw this obscure little documentary
03:19and thought we could make this into a film.
03:21And so it's a very unusual kind of origin story,
03:24because although it has Dwayne, who sort of, you know,
03:26is this giant movie star, it's this small kind of film for film
03:30developed from a documentary about this family of wrestlers from Norwich.
03:33And I sat down expecting to sort of laugh and sneer at these people.
03:38And I was just utterly charmed and kind of moved by their story
03:42and their dreams and the fact that they talk about wrestling
03:44as something which has kind of changed their lives
03:47in the same way that alcoholics can talk about God.
03:50You know, they talk about wrestling.
03:52And these two kids who go off and try and make it in the wide world of WWE,
03:56which for wrestlers is the, you know, the Hollywood of wrestling.
03:59And only one of them got signed, the sister, and the brother got left behind.
04:03And so it had a lot of pathos and drama and sadness,
04:06but humor as well, because it's a sort of odd little subject.
04:09And it just, somewhere on the line, it just really got into my DNA.
04:13And that was why I felt like it was worth pursuing.
04:17Shevatal, how about you? Why was this, why did you have to make this movie?
04:19Yeah, I think there was, you know, the film Boy Harness the Wind is,
04:23you know, William Kamkwamba's incredible story of building a wind turbine
04:27to help his community get out of a famine.
04:29And I was, you know, moved and inspired by the book.
04:35And as I was reading the book, I was just trying to think, actually,
04:39as you were talking and asking the question,
04:41if I could pinpoint the exact moment in the book, really,
04:44where I had, where I sort of moved beyond the kind of wider idea
04:49of thinking that this is a great and inspirational story
04:51to feeling that I really had to make it.
04:53And I think it's that moment of personal connection,
04:56that if you have that moment of really deep personal connection
04:59or where you start to really re-evaluate your own life
05:02and your own experience through the experiences of somebody else.
05:06And for me, that was, I think, in the book,
05:09when William describes, at 13, having been thrown out of school
05:14because his family couldn't afford the fees
05:16and there's no free education in Malawi above sort of seven or eight years old,
05:22and him trying to figure out how he could sneak into class.
05:27And so wondering, you know, and actually then doing,
05:30actuating this kind of, if he could get in by recess
05:33and then maybe the teachers that would be looking out for a kid
05:37whose parents hadn't paid would be doing something else
05:40and he could sneak into the science class and so on.
05:43And I sort of thought about what I was like at 13
05:46and what my relationship to sneaking into school,
05:49sneaking into a science class was like
05:52and how completely inconceivable that concept was for me.
05:56And I really started to consider the nature of that privilege
05:59and the nature of that understanding in a fuller sense.
06:02And I guess that's what inspired me.
06:04And I just thought, well, I really actually want to bring that story,
06:08this story, this kid's ideas of the world to a larger audience if I can.
06:13And Dan, you write scripts that you then don't direct.
06:17How did you decide you wanted to direct and write Velvet Buzzsaw?
06:22As a writer, you're looking for an idea
06:25that's like a documentary or something you see.
06:28You're just looking for something.
06:29For me as a writer, I'm looking for something
06:30that I know my voice was something that I will respond to.
06:36Right now when I direct something that I've written,
06:38I'm doing it to entertain people certainly
06:40but I'm also looking for thematic relevance
06:43and ideas that are important to me.
06:46So this idea came into my world and I fell in love with it
06:51and I thought this is a great entertaining film
06:53and it's also something that I'll be able to use as a vehicle to transmit ideas.
06:56So the biggest thing now for me is I'm not going to really write or direct anything
06:59unless it's transmitting an idea or an ethos or a theme that I feel is relevant
07:03because this media is so powerful for change.
07:07And not just change but to share your point of view.
07:11And it's just such an opportunity to share your point of view with the world
07:13that ideas now I define them when I want to work on them as,
07:15oh, I can say something.
07:17And actually the hard thing for me, the editing process on this movie
07:20was cutting out all these great lines of dialogue that had all these ideas in them.
07:23They're like ornaments on it.
07:25And it's like you watch the movie and you go like,
07:27you don't need that message, you don't need that message.
07:28Just like it's getting through.
07:30I just want so many ideas to come through and just share people with what you're thinking.
07:36That's really, so the idea is to find them by a potential vehicle to transmit an idea.
07:42Lulu, how about for you? This is a very personal movie for you.
07:45What made you say, I have to tell this story?
07:47Yeah, I mean, even as I was going through the process when I got the news
07:51that my grandmother was ill and I had to go back and say goodbye,
07:54but it was a wedding and I'm not allowed to tell her why we're actually there.
08:00You know, in the process, I was actually in post on my first film,
08:04so I wasn't necessarily thinking, okay, this is a film right away.
08:08But even in just trying to grapple with the ethics of it and am I crazy?
08:14Are they crazy?
08:16You know, I was calling up American friends.
08:19I was talking to my family and just trying to make sense of it all.
08:24So through that process, I was like, wait, I think I have something to say here.
08:29Like maybe it's all of it.
08:30Like maybe everybody's crazy and everybody's not crazy.
08:34And, you know, I actually discovered that like because I had to not express my emotions
08:40when I went back to China for this wedding, I didn't know how I was going to be able to
08:46do this
08:46without just breaking into tears as soon as I saw my grandma.
08:49So I went to this like media store and bought a little camcorder.
08:54And I thought, actually, you know, I'll hide behind my work.
08:56This is what I've always done is turn situations and things into stories.
09:01And so if I do this, then maybe it'll help me control my feelings if I like am hiding behind
09:05a camera through this lens.
09:07And so even through that process of like dealing with the actual situation,
09:12I already started to get a sense that there was a story here.
09:16It sounds amazing. I haven't seen it. I'm so excited to see this movie.
09:20I'm excited to see all these movies. It's like, I know what I'm doing when I leave here.
09:26Nisha, tell me about coming on board.
09:28You know, Mindy Kaling obviously wrote this script.
09:30Yeah.
09:30How did you find your, how did you make the decision that I want to be the one that tells
09:35the story?
09:35I mean, once the words Emma Thompson were mentioned, then you're just sort of in, I think, no matter what.
09:42But I think that this script, it was, it was beautiful because I think a lot of people forgot or
09:47didn't know that Emma started in comedy.
09:49And that she started as a standup comedian.
09:52She was in an improv troupe in college.
09:54And she's just come along and such a brilliant actress that she's played all these period piece dramas and all
10:00these dramatic roles.
10:01But the chance to sort of direct Emma Thompson in a comedy was just something I could not say no
10:09to.
10:09And Mindy captured, we have so many, as Indian American women working in comedy, we have so many similar experiences.
10:16And she just poignantly captured them in a really funny script that is my favorite kind of movie.
10:21Where if you just want to go to a movie and laugh and be entertained and listen to a good
10:26story that kind of leaves you feeling uplifted, then that's what this movie is.
10:32But also if you want to look a little deeper, it does have something to say and is quite political
10:36and interesting, too.
10:38So movies that work on both levels like that really are the joy for me.
10:43And this script really captured that beautifully. So I wanted to absolutely direct it.
10:47And Gavin, your film is based on a true story. It feels very timely.
10:50Why did you feel like you wanted to make this movie?
10:53Well, I'm glad I'm going last because I'm picking up on what everybody said.
10:57It is to Dan and everybody and to tell all you guys, it's about looking at a world in a
11:03way that you haven't before.
11:05The beauty of cinema and what we're lucky enough to do is, you know, we all live out our particular
11:11life.
11:11But the beauty of cinema is seeing life through someone else's eyes and looking for themes and ideas and ways
11:17of being the challenger.
11:19So in this particular case, this is based on a true story that took place right before the invasion of
11:25Iraq in 2003.
11:27It's the story of a British spy, a very junior British spy working at GCHQ, which is the Government Communications
11:34Headquarters,
11:35which is a very uncool word for the British version of the NSA. Somehow NSA, National Security Agency, just feels
11:43punchier than Government Communications Headquarters.
11:46Hey, look, we're very classy people, all right? We're not going for these show-off terms.
11:51Exactly. And, you know, very innocuous. What would Government Communications Headquarters do? Write notes to one another.
11:57Well, actually, they spy and they do what the NSA does. They eavesdrop on your private conversations.
12:02They gather up information on your cell phones and your computers, and they hack you if they need to.
12:09But what was interesting about this was that Catherine Gunn, whose story we're telling, was this young spy.
12:16And there's been so much information out there about how we got into the Iraq war from a kind of
12:20macro level.
12:21And what really fascinated me about this story was going into that story through the eyes of a very almost
12:28ordinary person like us.
12:30Not quite, because she was a spy. But she was 28, and she found herself in this situation where she
12:37came across a particular memo that was sent to GCHQ by the NSA.
12:41And it basically asked the GCHQ to help spy on the private communications of UN Security Council delegates, particularly the
12:51non-permanent members on the UN Security Council, whose vote would be critical in swaying the Council to voting for
12:59a legal UN-sanctioned invasion of Iraq.
13:03And had Blair and Bush got that resolution, all of the WMD issues, for those of you, a lot of
13:10young people here, maybe they're too young to even remember the Iraq war.
13:13You remember the Iraq war, somehow, yes.
13:15Anyway, so the whole premise of going to the Iraq was Saddam Hussein has weapons of mass destruction.
13:21But if you could have got the two ways you can go to war, and I won't be too long
13:25on this, but the two ways you can go to war legally is, one, the United Nations Security Council votes
13:32collectively that we have to go in and we have to solve this problem, which is what happened in Kosovo.
13:39If you get that, you don't really have to prove anything else, because we as the United Nations agree that
13:43something needs to be done.
13:44The other way that you go to war legally is self-defense.
13:48Well, if you can't get a UN resolution to go to war, which Bush and Blair couldn't, you need to
13:53say, hey, we're under attack.
13:54There are weapons of mass destruction that threaten us directly.
13:57If we don't stop it, the world's going to get a hell in a handbasket.
14:00So they really wanted this resolution, and I shouldn't go on too long.
14:04This is a story about a young woman who felt that spying and trying to essentially blackmail smaller nations into
14:11voting for this war was just a bridge too far for her, even though she worked as a spy.
14:16And so she leaked this memo.
14:18And to be honest, why did I want to do it?
14:20At first, I didn't.
14:20I thought, oh, my God, this is so complicated.
14:22There's so much research.
14:24And my wonderful producer, Jed Doherty, who may or may not be out here today, just kept going at me
14:29and saying, Gavin, you can do this.
14:30I'm an ex-lawyer by background, and it's a long way, and I thought I'd left it behind, and, you
14:35know, it comes back.
14:37So eventually, you know, I started reading and reading and reading, and the more I read, the more fascinated I
14:41became.
14:42And eventually, like everyone else, you just feel, I need to tell the story, and now you're in.
14:47And then you struggle to get the money.
14:49Yeah.
14:51Well, let's talk about getting the money, because we're talking about mostly independent film here.
14:58How hard do you feel like, as a director, you are in charge of that fight?
15:03Or do you lean on producers to help you?
15:06Have you had a frustrating experience where you couldn't, just couldn't get the movie off the ground, or it took
15:10a lot longer than you thought?
15:12Who's ever been frustrated at getting much money?
15:15Does that happen?
15:17Let's take a vote.
15:18Maybe not when you're Dan Gilroy.
15:19No, I'm kidding.
15:21I've had my troubles getting the money.
15:23I have a formula, which I'll share.
15:26My formula is, you get a script, and in my case, I write it.
15:30Then, you get somebody to do a budget, and you get the budget as low as possible.
15:34And then, if you're lucky enough, you get the agencies, and you find out what elements, like Chewatel, of what
15:42they're worth, because everybody has a number.
15:43There's like a hidden number somewhere, and if you can get that element or elements, and they're more valuable than
15:50your budget, there are a lot of people who are going to be interested in making your film.
15:54There's a lot of money sloshing around out there in the independent world, and Netflix obviously has joined the fray.
16:00But if you can get a script that you like, get the commitment of someone like Chewatel, and you have
16:07a director, and your budget is a number that's credible, and the actor is worth more than the budget, people
16:13will want, people are going to be very, because it's a piece of business for them.
16:16For us, it's like art.
16:17We're talking about the themes, and they're like, there's people who make a living.
16:20This is assembly.
16:22Okay, check that off, because they'll take the worst-case scenario.
16:25They'll take this scenario.
16:26If it completely fails, we know we've pre-sold it in 80 territories, and we'll have a thin margin of
16:33profit of $800,000.
16:34So for them, they're covered.
16:36But that's how I've approached the three movies that I've made, that sort of process.
16:41Did everyone write down the formula?
16:43But I can't do all the movies.
16:47I'll try.
16:48I'll try.
16:48I'll try.
16:50Oh, come on.
16:51I think for us, we were definitely, the thing about the sale too, was that we were seen as a
16:55risky movie, because the lead was, you know, God forbid, a woman over 50, and then a woman of color.
17:00And it, female-driven story, female-centric movie, it was very, it was a risk.
17:06And so that, I think, for it to be the record-breaking sale at Sundance was just a big validation
17:13that there are female-driven.
17:14Yeah.
17:21Yeah, and I think, like, I love that formula.
17:23Wish I could do it.
17:24You can't do that formula.
17:25You know?
17:25Yeah, like, on my film, I was like, okay, so this is the story.
17:30It's going to be 100% Asian cast, whether it's Asian or Asian American.
17:34I want it all authentic to the language and the accent, so 60, 70% Mandarin.
17:41Yeah, let's find a star who's worth, you know what I mean?
17:45Your formula falls apart.
17:47Yeah, this was before we knew we were going to cast Awkwafina.
17:50It was actually before she had done Crazy Rich Asians.
17:53It was before Crazy Rich Asians.
17:54Yeah.
17:54So, my formula is...
17:57Do you have one film for your formula?
17:58What is your formula?
17:59My formula is, come up with an idea.
18:02Go to This American Life.
18:06Write and narrate it.
18:09Have it air on This American Life.
18:11And then all the producers will start calling two days later.
18:13So simple.
18:14So simple.
18:15So easy.
18:16This film is so simple.
18:18No, but in all seriousness, I think you do what you can.
18:21I mean, for other indie filmmakers, women, people of color, like, whatever your stories are,
18:25I think what I discovered through this process is that there's not just one way to do it.
18:30Like, if you have a story that you're passionate about, find any kind of medium.
18:35Find a way to get your voice out there.
18:37And then if it resonates, it'll spread.
18:39But that's what we have to do.
18:41That typical formula for us, when you put in, like, X's and Y's will add up to $2.
18:47Because they'll say, oh, that woman's not worth anything, that person of color has a record.
18:50You know, it just doesn't work for the kinds of movies.
18:54It doesn't work for everything.
18:55Yeah.
18:55But I'll tell you on Nightcrawler, I was ready to make...
18:57We made it ultimately for around seven or eight.
18:59I was ready to make it for like one or two.
19:01Yeah.
19:01There is a budget number that if you're willing to drop to that budget number, other options
19:07start opening up exponentially the lower you go.
19:09And then the question is, how do I make the damn movie for $750,000?
19:11And sometimes you can totally pull it off.
19:14Four movies.
19:15Damien's first movie, Whiplash, she made it for 3-1 off a short film.
19:18I mean, you can do it.
19:20It's a mountain, but you just think the economics get smaller.
19:23Yeah.
19:23Sorry.
19:23Well, I was just saying, but, you know, our movie was originated by Dwayne, who, you know,
19:28by some metric is regarded as one of the biggest movie stars in the world.
19:31Yes.
19:31Literally.
19:32He was going to feature, although...
19:36He is the formula.
19:37Well, you say that, but he's six foot five, I'm six foot seven.
19:40That's true.
19:40So he's...
19:42Let's be honest, he's very intimidated by me.
19:45It's embarrassing.
19:46I tend to sit a lot when I'm around him.
19:49But you'd assume that you'd go along and you'd say, well, okay, Dwayne's not going to be
19:53the lead of this movie, you know, although he was in real life involved with this girl,
19:57Paige's real life wrestling story, but he's going to feature and he's going to have his
20:00fingerprints on it.
20:01And that was still...
20:02It still didn't solve everything.
20:04And we went to film four and we had to, you know, they had a sort of amount that they
20:07felt they could give and we had to get money elsewhere.
20:09And so I don't think, you know, it still seems to me that it's a combination of someone
20:14like Dwayne in the right kind of running, jumping, shooting film.
20:18But, you know, you put him in something else and suddenly people are a little nervous,
20:21or how are we going to sell this?
20:22So I don't know if it's ever...
20:23And getting good collaborators with that as well.
20:26You know, that's also part of the process of having a good producing team.
20:31Because that's the thing.
20:32It's just accumulating those yeses, isn't it?
20:34Right.
20:34And that sort of starts to snowball and that kind of moves.
20:37I think I was very...
20:39And part of the process with Boy of Harness the Wind was definitely...
20:41Even though I had me.
20:43Yes.
20:43You know.
20:46Numbers working very well.
20:50The...
20:50I was like...
20:51Were you tough to get?
20:54Were there some availability issues?
20:57You wouldn't read it.
20:59Just sat here for a long time.
21:00You're here.
21:01You know.
21:02What is this?
21:02But, you know, it's still a process.
21:06And finding people who share your vision and who are going to go to bat for you and who
21:11are going to try and join you in that search for the financing is vital.
21:18I think that's right.
21:20There really is no one way to do it.
21:22And I've done...
21:23I mean, this film was political in nature.
21:26God forbid you should examine anything political in Hollywood unless you've somehow landed every
21:33major star that you can.
21:34So we had to do it that way around.
21:36We had a budget and then we...
21:37Well, okay.
21:39Just forget your budget.
21:40Nobody's going to do this unless, you know, you get the yeses that Chewy Tales quote.
21:43Well, when Keira Knightley signed on, that was a really good yes.
21:46You'd think that would do it, right?
21:47You'd think that would do it.
21:48Oh, no, no, no.
21:49Well, that's great.
21:50That's great.
21:50Who else?
21:51So we ended up...
21:51Then we got Matt Smith, who's fantastic from the...
21:54Absolutely wonderful actor.
21:55Amazing.
21:56We thought we're done.
21:57No, no, no, no, no, no.
21:58Get us one more.
21:58Get us one more.
21:59Well, eventually the one more, we had like this third act, amazing cameo part of this
22:04lawyer called Ben Emerson.
22:06Who are we going to go to?
22:07Let's try Ralph Fiennes.
22:08He's never going to say yes, you know.
22:10It's a cat.
22:10He said yes.
22:12So I think it really is for actors and there's someone who can answer this better than me.
22:17But in my experience with actors, it's about the material.
22:20So if you're not winning on the elements that are, now you've got to say this script has
22:25really got to be good because what does an actor want?
22:29Something good.
22:30And, you know, and maybe a paycheck.
22:31But I've done it the other way around as well.
22:35My film, Totsi, many years ago was done in a foreign language with subtitles with not
22:40a movie star in sight.
22:41The lead had never been in a film before.
22:44But we had to make it for the right price.
22:45We had to make it for under $3 million.
22:48And we had to find people who just loved the story and, again, the script and said, we
22:53believe in this and we'll do it.
22:55But there's no way we would have got, you know, even $6 million for that movie.
22:58So I think you've also got to be realistic about what your project is and go in as dancers
23:03at the right price.
23:04But try.
23:05If you can find a great actor that also has name value, of course that's hugely helpful.
23:12Or Chiwetel.
23:12Or Chiwetel.
23:14He's booked up.
23:15He's not reading anything.
23:16He's booked up.
23:18So let's talk about the actors.
23:20Do you enjoy the casting process?
23:23Do you stand right for an actor like Jake?
23:27Or how do you know that you have found the right actor for a role?
23:31In Velvet Buzzsaw I wrote the part for Jake and I wrote the part for Renee.
23:36I didn't know the other parts.
23:38I'm married to an actress for 25 years.
23:40I love working with actors.
23:42I think this is a highly collaborative medium.
23:44One of the things I enjoy most is sitting down with somebody when you cast them and,
23:48like, I've got to be honest, however good a writer I am or not, when you sit down to
23:52a good actor, if they're a good actor, within a few days or a week, they know more about
23:56the character than you do.
23:57Maybe not more than the story, but they certainly know more about the character.
23:59And I am all ears when an actor starts talking about what they think is going on.
24:04And I love actors that challenge and question.
24:07Because it's only going to get better.
24:09If they're good actors and hopefully you've cast them, it's only going to get better.
24:13And some directors don't like working with actors.
24:17They're scared of actors.
24:18Actors are scary.
24:19They ask really brutal questions.
24:21Why am I doing this?
24:24And sometimes they wait until the day you're shooting.
24:26Because it says so here on this page.
24:28You've never done that.
24:30But you should.
24:31I'm sure you have.
24:32But, no, embrace actors.
24:35If they're good actors, embrace them.
24:37They're invaluable.
24:40And I've got a great cast.
24:42Malkovich and Toni Collette and all these great, and Saoie Ashton.
24:45It's incredible.
24:46I love actors, man.
24:47Good actors.
24:48Can you tell Stephen, as actors, how did that sort of influence your style as a director?
24:55Well, I think it's actually the same thing Dan's saying.
24:58It's just that sense of really, I think that embracing the process and embracing the collaborative
25:04spirit is a crucial part of, I think, being a director and being an actor as well.
25:10You know, that understanding that individuals bring so much to the table, you know, and that
25:17actors can actually really influence from the inside the nature of a story with dynamics
25:22that are just kind of inconceivable, you know, to somebody outside of that experience.
25:26You know, so, and exactly in that way, actors are sort of forced to be sort of, you know,
25:33script editors sometimes and really work through all the things that they have done before
25:38and what has worked for them and then bringing that to your project and so sort of negotiating
25:43that.
25:43You know, the hardest experiences to go through as an actor with directors who want to block
25:48that dynamic because they're kind of absolutely focused on whatever they believe is the correct
25:55way, correct, you know, way to approach something.
25:59And that can be very challenging and very difficult and very rarely is it successful,
26:03you know.
26:04So, as a director, you know, what I wanted to do was absolutely open it up to the actors
26:09to bring all of their thoughts, feelings, expressions, to have takes that I didn't, you know,
26:15absolutely didn't say anything about it.
26:17You know, what do you feel?
26:18How do you feel it goes?
26:20And if there was something specific to try and move or change or, then sort of discuss
26:25that and think about it and negotiate it, but give people the absolute space to create.
26:31You know, that seems to me.
26:32Well, we had a very tricky central role to cast because, as I said, it's based on this real-life
26:37woman who's a working-class woman who at the time that she went off to America to train
26:42as a wrestler for the WWE, coming from this Norwich family, you know, she was 18 or 19
26:47at the time.
26:48She ultimately became a big star there, so you needed someone who could both be this
26:53working-class girl, but who had the charisma not only to carry the movie, but also that you
26:59would believe could become a star in this world that she's in, and she needed to wrestle
27:04with her on top.
27:06And so it was a really tough thing to cast, and I must have seen sort of 60-plus, you
27:11know,
27:11young British actresses either in person or on tape, and it was just hard to find that
27:14combination.
27:15And we ended up with this wonderful actress called Florence Pugh, who has been here, I
27:20believe, with Lady Macbeth.
27:21And Lady Macbeth was a terrific film, but it didn't tell me that she could do this part.
27:25And there was no question about her talent, it's just, you know, but is she right for
27:30this one?
27:30And so, you know, I worked with her a lot and some of the other actors until they could
27:34convince me that this was the right deal.
27:36But like you were saying, you know, it's weird when you are an actor, you know, you hear
27:41those stories about, well, what's my motivation?
27:43Why should I cross the room?
27:44And you sort of think, oh, it's just actors being, you know, idiots.
27:47But actually, weirdly, sometimes when you are in the scene, it's only then that something
27:52occurs to you that doesn't feel right, or it feels weird, or you don't understand it,
27:55and you can't move forward because you're stuck in that.
27:57And so, like you say, you need to trust that the actor's not doing this because they're
28:01being a diva or because of ego.
28:03It's just that something's not ringing true for them.
28:05And if you don't listen to that, I don't know where you are.
28:08Yeah, I agree.
28:11Yeah, I want to go back on something I was saying about Kira and Matt and Rafe.
28:16And especially when you've written yourself, Dan, I don't know if you'll agree with this,
28:22but there is a fear that you're going to get rejected.
28:25Actors often come to auditions and think they're auditioning for you.
28:28The truth is, you also feel like your stuff's being auditioned by them.
28:32Is my stuff working?
28:33Does it work?
28:34And you want to hear those.
28:35I actually love the audition casting process because I get to test my stuff before I'm actually
28:42shooting on multiple people.
28:44Don't tell them that.
28:44But it's great when actors come in the room and you're casting because you're going,
28:49is this scene going to work the way I've written it?
28:51Don't be afraid of that process because the other thing about being challenged,
28:55the flip side of having your producers, your financiers say to you,
28:59no, get me someone better for this role.
29:02And your instincts are, please, I don't want to go through that trial or that rejection anymore.
29:06I have Kira.
29:07Can we just shoot this?
29:08We'll get...
29:08No, we want more.
29:10Now, in a way, then you go, oh, what you realize is, is my stuff good enough?
29:14You know?
29:15Is it good enough to attract really good actors?
29:19And if my stuff, when I'm sending it out, is being rejected, oh, so-and-so passed, so-and-so
29:25passed.
29:25You know, there's a tendency to say, well, fuck them, you know?
29:28But actually, that's not very wise because maybe it's getting rejected because it's not good enough.
29:34And so, as a writer and a director, you want to go back and look at that material because the
29:40competition is massive.
29:42What's the number?
29:43700 films made last year did $13.4 billion.
29:49It's a record, except that half of that $13 billion, or at least a third of it, was 10 Marvel
29:55movies.
29:56So that leaves 690 movies competing for the other balance of which most don't get a release.
30:02This is not a gentle sport.
30:05This is the Olympics, man.
30:07And maybe I'm overstating it, but getting tested in pre-production and during casting and going back is exhausting but
30:14actually worth it, I think.
30:16Yeah.
30:17I want to hear about Awkwafina and how you cast her.
30:20Yeah, I was going to say, I mean, it's terrifying because you don't know how it's all going to work
30:26out until, like, you're actually there.
30:27We had an ensemble cast, so we have Awkwafina, who's known for comedy, and when we cast her, she hadn't
30:33even done Crazy Rich or Ocean's 8 yet.
30:36And so when, you know, the producer said, you know, have you heard of Awkwafina? And I was like, my
30:42vag?
30:43They were like, I know it's unconventional, what do you think? Like, she loves this group, she'd love to meet
30:49with you.
30:49And I was like, oh, okay? Just didn't think, okay, yeah, all right, my vag, yeah, okay.
30:55So, I mean, my brother introduced her music to me, that's how I knew of her, was, like, through YouTube
31:00and stuff like that.
31:01And then, of course, she's, like, playing a version of me, and so it made me, I was like, Danny,
31:06my producer, was like, how do you think, do you, am I, okay.
31:10Like, you know, this is the person that you're choosing to represent me.
31:13So then Awkwafina met up, and she told me about how personal the story was for her, because she was
31:21raised by her Chinese grandmother, and then she sent in her audition tape.
31:24And I just knew that the raw connection she had to the story was going to bring so much depth,
31:29and we couldn't greenlight the film even without having the main character.
31:33You know, but then you go to China, and we're casting people from, like, local Chinese actors to play the
31:38grandma.
31:40We cast this soap opera star from China.
31:43You know, for the uncle, we cast this, like, dramatic actor, Tai Ma, who's, you know, been in Arrival, Meditation,
31:51everything.
31:51Rush Hour is the father.
31:54We have an Australian Chinese woman to play the mother.
31:57And then I cast my real great aunt to play herself in the movie, non-actor.
32:03She actually went through the experience herself, and I always thought, you know, if she was just around on set,
32:09she would bring, like, a grounding to all of this, and hopefully tie all of it in.
32:13And initially, I thought, maybe she'll play grandma, and that wasn't good, because, yeah, that wasn't good.
32:20Because she was like, what does my sister do?
32:22And, you know, it was very, like, an imitation.
32:24And then I just said, what if she plays herself?
32:26And we had a long conversation.
32:27I said, put yourself back in the moment when you found out the news, and you have to lie to
32:32your, you have to decide, do I lie to my sister or do I not?
32:35I felt bad.
32:37Like, all the producers were there, and we were like, we're putting her through this really traumatic revisiting of this
32:42moment.
32:43But she felt, she was like, it's like therapy, you know?
32:46And she did it, and it was so raw.
32:48And I was like, done.
32:50But then, you know, you don't see all of these people together until you're actually on set.
32:55And we didn't want to start with these big ensemble pieces, because we had very limited shooting schedule, as you
33:01know, with indie films.
33:02And then you have 13 people in a tiny apartment sitting around a round table.
33:06How do you do this?
33:07Do you cover it?
33:09You don't have time.
33:10And then also, how is everyone, what's the chemistry between the group, between grandma Billy, between, you know, and then
33:18as an ensemble, because the ensemble themselves is a character.
33:21The family is a main character in the movie.
33:24And so, it's magic.
33:26I think so much of it is faith.
33:28And you just kind of, up until two weeks before we started shooting, we didn't have grandma or little Nai
33:34Nai, the sister or the great aunt cast.
33:36And so, you're just like, this, this, this, this.
33:39All right, let's go.
33:40Boom.
33:41And you have no idea what you end up with.
33:43And, yeah.
33:45Were you nervous about the fact that what if your aunt couldn't do it, you got to fire her or
33:49something?
33:49Because I put my dad in something once and we gave him lines and on the day he was hopeless
33:53and I had to, I ended up taking them away from him.
33:57And because it was such a no budget thing, my agent ended up doing the scene instead of my dad.
34:02Did he charge you 10%?
34:03He did.
34:05She kept saying that.
34:06She was like, you know, if I'm terrible, just tell me, just fire me.
34:09I was like, we've like been through the parks of the entire city every morning scouting cute old, like Chinese
34:16ladies.
34:16Yeah.
34:18No, like you're the cutest.
34:21And we got to make it work.
34:23And she was like, no, I'm going to ruin your movie.
34:25And she's acting her, you know, her sister in the movie is a really famous Chinese actress that she's like
34:32watched for years.
34:33And so she was like, I can't, my fat face is going to ruin your movie.
34:36That's what she would always say.
34:38And we were like, no, you were adorable.
34:39And then when we told her we were at Sundance, she was like, I'm just relieved I didn't ruin the
34:43movie.
34:45Yeah, she's amazing, but a little bit afraid, but I knew she could do it.
34:50So, guys, I do want to ask sort of a broader industry question.
34:53Obviously, we've seen this business changing pretty rapidly the last couple of years with things like Netflix and Amazon and
35:00Hulu and now Apple kind of coming into the business.
35:03A couple of these films are being released through Netflix.
35:06What's sort of your view on how a movie is released, how you would want your movie to reach audiences
35:12these days?
35:13Are you open to everything?
35:14Are there still preferred ways you'd want your movie to go?
35:19Well, I think for The Boy Who Harness the Wind, which is with Netflix, which has been very exciting and
35:24a great process for us, you know, what it's made me think about is this opportunity to slightly curate the
35:32ideas of how you distribute films and that there's not a sort of, there's a kind of, there are options
35:39on the table and there's not a sort of one size fits all kind of model.
35:44And so, so it seems exciting to me.
35:47You know, I wanted to make a film that was very specific and very authentic and about Malawi and a
35:54lot of the film is in Chichua, which is the language of Malawi.
35:57And, you know, and it's all, you know, set there and it's very, you know, detailed in that way.
36:04But I kind of wanted a lot of people to see it, you know.
36:06And in the early parts of the process, you know, when I was starting to write that, it didn't seem,
36:12it felt like that was a difficult thing to achieve.
36:14You know, I started writing in 2009 and you kind of, you know, and just working through the time, doing
36:20other things, coming back to it and seeing the landscape slightly change and getting to this point whereby there is
36:25an opportunity to have it, you know, some people to see it in a limited way in cinemas, but also
36:31to actually get the kind of reach and the eyeballs on it that were just, was completely impossible a few
36:38years ago.
36:38And would have been extremely difficult within the model and the established theatrical models of distribution recently.
36:45So that's been exciting to me.
36:47I think that that idea of how we can curate that experience for the audiences and how we can then
36:53push sort of different kinds of material out there and have different kinds of conversation is something that I personally
36:59am very excited about.
37:00I'm looking forward to working with and seeing how these conversations can be productively handled, you know.
37:06So it's not a sort of us and them sort of paradigm, but, you know, I think that these things
37:10work together very well.
37:11I love the idea, for example, that with something like Roma, that people were going to see it in the
37:16cinema because they were more used to the idea of subtitles because they had been watching things like Narcos on
37:21Netflix, you know, recently.
37:23So that sort of way that these things can sort of evolve and inform each other, I think, is a
37:28kind of useful way of moving forward.
37:31Yeah, I think we're as lucky with Netflix because it's, of course, old school, and I'm a bit old school,
37:37you know, want to see my film on a big screen.
37:38And I do.
37:39There's nothing more beautiful than sitting collectively with an audience and seeing a big, there's something about the intelligence of
37:45an audience that goes up when they're all together, which is a bit more nerve wracking.
37:48But they really focus.
37:50But, having said that, it's a bit like sort of whinging about film versus digital.
37:55You've got to stop.
37:56I mean, the truth is digital now is amazing, digital cameras, and it's democratizing film in a way that it
38:02was never possible when we had film.
38:04And I think Netflix and what you're saying is doing the same thing.
38:08I mean, you know, 12 years ago when I made this tiny little indie film, also all subtitled in Sotsital,
38:14we were just hoping we'd get a release in South Africa, which is where I grew up, hopefully.
38:18And we were very lucky that it traveled the world because of festivals like this.
38:22But festivals like this were really the only way that you could get your film out in the world.
38:27Now, with Netflix and Amazon and these sort of companies, a smaller film can find a huge audience, whereas even
38:34when Sotsital was released in America, it was released on two screens in New York and one in LA.
38:39Well, that's not really my target audience.
38:41And I'm very glad that it then picked up and went on to many more screens and got a life
38:46and showed all over the country.
38:47But it still doesn't reach the audience that a Netflix can.
38:50And then the other thing, of course, is we're all buying these big TV screens.
38:54So it's not so bad.
38:55The sound's better.
38:56You know, when I was growing up, it was TV, and who wants your stuff on 4x3?
39:00So I think, don't be afraid of it.
39:02Look for the place where you can best get your film out.
39:06And, of course, it's wonderfully satisfying to have it on the big screen, but it's certainly not the only place.
39:11I think we get the best of both worlds with Amazon because they guaranteed a theater release.
39:15So we get to, you know, that's the dream is you want to see it in a theater with an
39:19audience, especially comedies.
39:20I grew up watching comedies in movie theaters with audiences.
39:23There's nothing like laughing altogether.
39:25And so we get to do that.
39:26And then we also get to reach the whole world with Amazon streaming.
39:29So I think that's just the best of both worlds.
39:32Yeah, and I think above, like, more than just the theatrical, digital, like, all of that, like, yes, you want
39:37as many people to see it as possible.
39:39It's more than just platform.
39:41It's about, you know, who can handle the film, who understands the film, who's able to present it to the
39:46world.
39:46Yeah.
39:46Because so much of it is about optics, right?
39:49Like, The Farewell, you know, you have an all-Asian cast.
39:52There's subtitles.
39:53People are speaking Chinese.
39:54But then you have Awkwafina, who's this very big American star.
39:56So, you know, when you're in this, like, strange territory and they call you specialty, like, how do you present
40:02it so that you bridge that gap?
40:04People aren't seeing it as a foreign film, that they're able to see it as an American film.
40:08Because it is an American film, even though there's all of this other language, because it's from the perspective of
40:14an American.
40:15And it may not be the type of American people immediately think of, you know, like, as a lead or
40:21as a cast in general.
40:23But it is an American perspective.
40:25And, in fact, you know, when people were talking about this film for the Chinese market, like, I can't speak
40:30to that because I'm not Chinese.
40:31And, you know, when we took, we were talking to people about the film in China, we were like, so
40:35then they keep the secret and they don't tell grandma.
40:37And they're like, uh-huh.
40:39So where's the drama?
40:40We're like, no, but they don't tell her and she's dying.
40:43And they're like, and you don't do that, America?
40:46True.
40:46Like, you guys are crazy.
40:48You would just tell her?
40:49You know?
40:49And so for them, they're like, this isn't dramatic enough.
40:53This is what everybody does.
40:54So, yeah.
40:55That's like when my family in India thought Monsoon Wedding was a documentary.
40:58Yeah, exactly.
40:59And then, like.
41:00Yeah.
41:01It's called a story.
41:02My dad was like, this is so everyday.
41:04Why is this interesting?
41:05Yeah.
41:05That's what you literally said.
41:07I'm curious.
41:08While we've been here, there's been a movement happening with a lot of actors.
41:12Agreeing to participate in something called the 4% challenge.
41:16Which is, they'll agree to work with a female filmmaker in the next 18 months.
41:19You know, as we know, female filmmakers still make up only 4% of the top films in the US.
41:26I'm curious what you all think about that initiative.
41:30And sort of what can be done to really, you know, make, give more opportunities for female filmmakers.
41:36I mean, I think it's essential that they make these initiatives and promises and just shine a light on it.
41:43Because if they don't, it doesn't really draw attention.
41:46And the statistics, every year people seem to start to talk about female filmmakers.
41:50And then every year, the statistics actually go down about the number of working directors that are women behind the
41:56camera.
41:56And we all know now that who's behind the camera matters.
41:59And it matters what perspective you're being given.
42:01It matters how the stories are being portrayed.
42:04How women's stories, particularly if they're objectified or not.
42:07It absolutely changes by whether a woman is behind the camera or not.
42:11And so I think those initiatives can only help.
42:13Yeah, I think it's so urgent.
42:16And I also hope that there's one day where people aren't having to agree to work, you know, where it's
42:22like, hell yeah, we are so freaking excited.
42:26And, you know, it isn't pushed on you by an initiative.
42:29But at this moment in time, we need it because it's not happening.
42:33I was just thinking about, you know, sort of women in the lead roles as well because I was always
42:40aware that there was a disparity between, you know, how many protagonists are, leading protagonists in the movie are women.
42:48And I always knew there was a disparity between men and women, but I didn't realize how pronounced it was.
42:51And I read a few articles where it was, you know, they were dramatically stating, you know, how low it
42:55was, you know, as low as kind of 30% in some Hollywood, you know, like 2016.
43:01And I, bizarrely, I had made a list of my favorite 500 films because I got time on my hands.
43:07And I thought, surely, you know, this is a list which is not controversial.
43:10If you were to look at it, you'd see many of the kind of standard canonized movie classics in there
43:14across.
43:15And it dates back, the earliest in the list is about 1920, and it covers, it's a huge film nerd
43:19list.
43:21And I thought to myself, I bet there's at least 50% that are female roles.
43:25And I totted it up. And to talk of it, if you were thinking of it singly as a female
43:29protagonist, it was 50 in the 500 films.
43:33It's 10%. And I was really shocked by my own list.
43:36And again, it's not a list where you'd look at that and think it's entirely Jean-Claude Van Damme films.
43:40It's a very broad spectrum. And I was shocked by myself.
43:43And I talked to my girlfriend about it. And she was saying, well, yeah, you never notice the absent
43:47because you see a white middle class male on screen all the time.
43:51You just, the absence of something doesn't occur to you because there's nothing absent for you.
43:55Exactly. I mean, even for me though, like I took a film class in college and it wasn't until I
44:00got in the industry
44:01and I started thinking back on it. In this film class, you know, of like an entire semester,
44:06not one female director was presented as somebody to watch whose work I should watch.
44:14And I just didn't think about it. I was like, oh yeah, Tarantino. Yeah, Woody Allen.
44:19I thought about it. I was the annoying student that was like, why is there not one woman on this
44:22list?
44:22Because when you present to me a list and you say, these are the directors you should study in film
44:26school.
44:27These are the directors who are worth watching. I was like, so what you're telling me is there's not one
44:30woman who's worth studying.
44:31And that's the message you're giving. And I was the annoying student that was always pointing that out.
44:35I wish that I thought more. I think I was just so like enamored. I never thought of even filmmaking.
44:39I just discovered filmmaking for myself that I, there was a pressure of being like, oh my God, I got
44:45to catch up.
44:46You know, I didn't, my family immigrated here when I was six. And so I wasn't exposed to all these
44:50art films.
44:51I just felt like I had to catch up and learn all the things that these like film teacher and
44:55all these brilliant, huh?
44:57Watch Blow Up. I was like, we are showing Blow Up one more time. We'll walk out of the way
45:02in the moment.
45:02Yeah.
45:03I was like, why is this okay?
45:05Exactly.
45:07Guys, I want to thank you so much for joining us.
45:10Everyone for coming.
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