- 5 hours ago
Anna Boden, Deborah Chow, Jon M. Chu, Alex Garland, Janet Mock & Jonathan Nola
joined The Hollywood Reporter to talk about their respected TV series.
joined The Hollywood Reporter to talk about their respected TV series.
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Short filmTranscript
00:00:07Hi, and welcome to Close Up with the Hollywood Reporter TV Directors.
00:00:12I'm Rebecca Ford, and I'd like to welcome Deborah Chow, Jonathan Nolan, Janet Mock, Alex Garland, John Ev Chiu, and
00:00:22Anna Bowden.
00:00:22Thank you guys so much for joining us today.
00:00:24We just need to, you know, acknowledge the unprecedented times we're in, you know, between the coronavirus and the outcry
00:00:34about social injustice.
00:00:37It's a really unique time, and I'm curious how this current time is affecting you creatively.
00:00:44As a creator, how do you deal with the weight of what's going on in the world?
00:00:49Yes, usually this is a moment in which I would be able to gently feel my wife patting my shoulder
00:00:54and saying, shut the fuck up.
00:00:58I think it's a fascinating, terrifying, enthralling moment.
00:01:03I mean, part of what we were doing in the last season of Westworld was kind of telling a story
00:01:07about questioning assumptions about the way society is structured, about the way the world, so many things that we take
00:01:14for granted.
00:01:15And this is a moment in which it's a revelatory moment.
00:01:18It's a moment in which you're realizing that for many people, the world is not what you experience.
00:01:25I think it's a moment to listen, but also a moment to speak up.
00:01:31I mean, I've been kind of fascinated for many years with the structure of our society, the way that it
00:01:37works, and we've talked a little bit about this.
00:01:39We have the luxury in a science fiction show where you get to talk at a certain remove.
00:01:44But I think this is a moment in which you have to listen carefully and question assumptions.
00:01:51I think part of the problem beyond just racism, which there is more of in this country, in this world,
00:01:59I think that many of us understood.
00:02:02I think one of the other problems that we're beginning to realize is a certain complacency amongst people who might
00:02:07not think of themselves as racist.
00:02:09A complacency in saying, oh, well, I've done my part.
00:02:13I've done a little bit.
00:02:15And it's clear the little bit is not enough.
00:02:19So it feels like there's a moment here to take stock of the things we're all doing as people and
00:02:24as an industry and say the depth of the problem is much more significant.
00:02:31I think for a lot of people, they imagine the civil rights movement was the end of racism in this
00:02:34country.
00:02:35That's clearly not the case.
00:02:37Clearly not the case in our industry.
00:02:39We congratulate ourselves on our show that we have a good amount of diversity in front of the camera.
00:02:47Do we have enough behind the camera?
00:02:48That's a big problem.
00:02:50So I think it's a moment for everyone to realize that where they thought the incremental things they were doing
00:02:54were enough, it's not enough.
00:02:55Anything even beyond sort of our jobs to our own personal lives, talking to our families.
00:03:03So, you know, we all a lot of us have little children and explaining to them from the ground up
00:03:09what what is happening and what that means.
00:03:12Talking to my parents, talking to my uncles and aunts to help them understand, you know, we were here in
00:03:17West Hollywood when when, you know, police cars are being burned next to us.
00:03:23And we're but also the the protest was around us and that energy.
00:03:27And and so we had to talk about all those things.
00:03:30And as and I think as artists, as we all are, we're very sensitive to where we are as human
00:03:36beings, too.
00:03:36And so I think there's process.
00:03:38There's so many different places to process of what I what are we actually capable of doing?
00:03:44What can I be doing amplifying or doing stuff in my work or, you know, beyond that?
00:03:51And so it was I think it's been a long process of thinking about really heavy on my on I
00:03:56think all I'm sure on all our hearts.
00:03:57But I think the power of story and what we do shows how important it is to make the stories
00:04:05that that share our experiences with others and share other experiences as well.
00:04:11I just think that that really impacted me.
00:04:13That's right. The things that we do do are very important to expose people to to all the stuff.
00:04:19And also the the pandemic itself of allowing us to confront these things trapped in the house with our families,
00:04:28with our friends, with ourselves, I think really forces as artists to do that.
00:04:32And we're not done. It's just we're just we're literally in the middle.
00:04:35I think that's why Joan and I sort of talk and we're it's a lot of stuff because we're processing
00:04:40and we're in the middle of it.
00:04:41You know, for me, it's interesting because when we first, you know, got shut down on season three of Pose
00:04:48when I was directing the premiere, I was like, OK, good.
00:04:52I can take a breath. I can go home for three weeks.
00:04:54You know, we thought I'm a cute little three weeks and incubate and do some stuff, finish scripts, you know,
00:04:59polish things off.
00:05:00And then it just got darker and darker and darker.
00:05:03You know, we shoot our show at Silver Cup North in the Bronx and the Bronx in New York City
00:05:09is literally the epicenter for the United States of the the Corona crisis.
00:05:15And so we knew that it was the layered nature of these people living in projects and housing projects, you
00:05:22know, largely black and brown folk who are not getting attention or care, who whose facilities are not being cleaned.
00:05:30And so I I felt this stuff coming back up, you know, at first I thought it was like, oh,
00:05:35we're all connected.
00:05:36And this is, you know, and then you see the disparities that happen in certain communities. Right.
00:05:41So, you know, the first couple of weeks, I felt a deep sense of like creative energy.
00:05:45And then the news headlines were kind of hitting more and more and more about who was being, you know,
00:05:51disproportionately impacted by the coronavirus.
00:05:53And I found myself as an artist and a creative not being able to concentrate on the actual work.
00:06:00And I found myself being called to pay more attention to the news, to Twitter, as John was saying, amplifying,
00:06:07you know, the organizers on the ground.
00:06:09And of course, George Floyd happens and Ahmaud Arbery and Breonna Taylor and Tony McDade.
00:06:17And then, of course, you know, black trans women being killed and all of this stuff is bubbling up in
00:06:22my various communities.
00:06:24And so I felt called to speak out, of course, as someone who, you know, is seen as a representative
00:06:30of a community in this strange way as a role model that I didn't ask for.
00:06:33But it's a responsibility and a duty that I must do. And, you know, when I look at the work
00:06:38that I've done on Pose and on Hollywood,
00:06:41oftentimes it's about outsiders looking in, coming in and wanting to change systems, surviving and having resilience despite these systems
00:06:50pushing them down.
00:06:51And so for me, I don't think that it's going to change my work.
00:06:54I think it's just a more urgent call to get to work and to use the privileges and the access
00:07:00that I do have in the institution of Hollywood
00:07:03to hopefully push for greater change and find more, you know, co-conspirators to jump in and help us do
00:07:10some work on the ground.
00:07:11I have to admit that, you know, I haven't even begun to understand how this time is really affecting me
00:07:19creatively.
00:07:19I haven't been focusing my energy very much in that area. And mostly I moved to New York.
00:07:27I was in the middle of a move to New York in March, nine months pregnant with a five year
00:07:31old.
00:07:32And really the first part of the time was just like trying to figure out how to have a baby
00:07:37during a pandemic, you know,
00:07:39trying to get myself situated in a house where I could really, you know, shelter in place.
00:07:45And it was so kind of inwardly focused. And then, you know, slowly, I think like what Janet was saying,
00:07:54you know,
00:07:54all just everything that was going on was becoming so much clearer.
00:07:59And being in New York and really seeing the privilege that I had to, you know, be in a space
00:08:06that was comfortable to live in,
00:08:08even though it was kind of hard to get there and seeing so many people who I knew having the
00:08:14privilege to flee the city and get out.
00:08:17And you really kind of start to see those contrasts between people with that privilege and people without.
00:08:25And it's all right in front of you because every time you leave your house, you're walking by people from
00:08:31all walks of life.
00:08:33And, you know, so I think that for now it's really been much more about me just trying to figure
00:08:43out how to deal with this period of time as a human being.
00:08:47How am I going to engage with it, be part of it?
00:08:51And it's something that I find myself kind of struggling with every day.
00:08:57How am I going to be a good mom? How am I going to be a good parent right now?
00:09:00How am I going to figure out how to engage with this?
00:09:03And I haven't even really arrived at how to deal with it creatively yet.
00:09:08Alex, how about for you? I know you're in the UK.
00:09:10It has affected me creatively quite a lot, I'd say. Initially, partly because I got sick.
00:09:17I got the virus very early on and it completely knocked me sideways and trashed about four weeks.
00:09:24But I didn't have to go to hospital, so it was unpleasant, but it wasn't dangerous.
00:09:29I think when I came out of it and looked around, there were two things, I guess.
00:09:34One was that I could see this was very bad and it made me unsure of how to write about
00:09:41the world
00:09:42because was it a world where everyone wore face masks and shops were closed
00:09:46and the sort of minutiae of sort of textural life?
00:09:50I just didn't know what that would be.
00:09:52There was also something I thought was quite good.
00:09:55I think there are, it's going to sound perverse to say it, but I think there are positives within this
00:09:59pandemic.
00:10:00And one of them is it shows up all of the populist leaders around the globe.
00:10:06Boris Johnson in my country, Trump in yours, Bolsonaro.
00:10:09It just shows what frauds they are. It shows what absolute idiots they are.
00:10:14It's uniquely the populist leaders that have failed to deal with this virus.
00:10:19It's very, very specifically them.
00:10:21And it's because they lie and their lies don't work against reality.
00:10:26And they've managed to push away reality with their bullshit up to this point.
00:10:32And this has penetrated it.
00:10:33And then you get to the outbreak of absolutely justified civil disobedience,
00:10:42which is different, but related in some respects.
00:10:45And with that, the creative effect that had on me was that I was writing about civil disobedience.
00:10:52And the reason I'd been going to Hong Kong last year,
00:10:55checking out the really fantastic popular movement there was over there protesting against,
00:11:03really protesting against the Chinese government rather than the Hong Kong government,
00:11:07to the extent there's a difference.
00:11:08And I was writing about it because I was really frustrated that I felt there were lots of things
00:11:15that deserved civil disobedience around.
00:11:18One of them being my government and the other one being your government.
00:11:22And that actually civil disobedience was what was required against these people.
00:11:26And not just against these people, but against the superstructures that support these people.
00:11:30And it was really, really bugging me.
00:11:33I was looking back in time and I was thinking about civil rights and Stonewall
00:11:38and anti-Vietnam War demonstrations and AIDS activists, the ACT UP people in New York,
00:11:45particularly in New York in the 80s,
00:11:49and thinking these people knew what civil disobedience was.
00:11:53They knew how to protest.
00:11:54It wasn't a march with an Instagram photo or an angry tweet.
00:12:00It was going out again and again and again and again.
00:12:04So I was writing a thing about the importance of civil disobedience.
00:12:08And then civil disobedience started again.
00:12:11Real, real civil disobedience.
00:12:13The kind of civil disobedience that is actually needed.
00:12:16So I just instantly stopped writing.
00:12:18I'd written a quarter, two episodes of an eight part thing.
00:12:22And I just thought, well, never mind that, because it's already started.
00:12:25So now I'm sort of hunting around for something else to do.
00:12:28But in both instances, I'm kind of pleased.
00:12:31And it's a pleasure that comes out of something very, very dark.
00:12:35Both of these things are very, very sinister and dark.
00:12:39But there's a part of me that takes a grim satisfaction at the response,
00:12:46at the result of showing liars that they're liars
00:12:49and getting people to fight about things they should fight about.
00:12:54So that's where I'm at.
00:12:56I think for me, it has changed creatively.
00:13:00I was in development on one main project and a couple little ones
00:13:05when we went into COVID.
00:13:06And so we were sort of already developing material.
00:13:08And it felt like kind of when we went through the protests,
00:13:11there's sort of almost before and after,
00:13:12with just the perspective on how we look at the material.
00:13:15It's like you kind of come back and it just feels sort of different,
00:13:19the way you're looking at character arcs and stories and themes.
00:13:23And there's just certain things that just feel like,
00:13:25oh, you know, we can't do that anymore.
00:13:28Or things are, you know,
00:13:29it just sort of changed the whole perspective on certain things.
00:13:32And it wasn't just me.
00:13:33I think everybody was feeling it that was involved with the project as well.
00:13:36And I think, you know, obviously there's, you know,
00:13:38there's a long road to go and there's a lot more to come with the story on this.
00:13:41But I'm kind of glad for the change, honestly.
00:13:45I feel like, you know, there's been a lot of talk and a lot of pushing to kind of get
00:13:47here.
00:13:48But I'm glad that things feel different.
00:13:50And I welcome it, even if it's been sort of a very difficult way to get there.
00:13:55I think what we're seeing is, you know,
00:13:56these conversations are starting to bubble up about where does Hollywood go from here?
00:14:01How does this industry change?
00:14:04And it made me realize I have a lot of people who are firsts in this group.
00:14:09You know, Janet, of course, you're known for being the first trans woman of color
00:14:14to be on a major series with Pose and then also have that major deal with Netflix.
00:14:20John, of course, Crazy Rich Asians was a big first for the industry with its success.
00:14:25And Deborah, obviously, being a woman who directed a Star Wars series,
00:14:29these are all major landmarks we've seen over the last year.
00:14:33And so I'm curious for the three of you, what does that wait feel like?
00:14:36You know, knowing that you you were the first to do something and here we are in this next chapter.
00:14:42I mean, are you optimistic that there won't have to be firsts anymore?
00:14:46There can just be plenty or how do you sort of carry that weight?
00:14:50For me, it's, you know, I just don't want to fuck up because I want to make sure that they
00:14:55keep the doors open for other folk to come in
00:14:58so that eventually progress looks like, you know, not me being the first and the only,
00:15:03but then there's tons of folk coming in and being able to tell the stories that they feel are important
00:15:07for them.
00:15:07Right. And so for me, I think ever since I've been public with my story from my memoirs until working
00:15:16on Pose in Hollywood,
00:15:17I felt that kind of added labor of carrying people in with me as I'm also just trying to figure
00:15:25out,
00:15:25you know, number one, how to do the work. I didn't go to film school.
00:15:29Next, you know, trusting my intuition and my voice and the things that I know about story.
00:15:35And then also, you know, doing the other thing of like just engaging in content and stories that I want
00:15:42to tell
00:15:43because I feel at the end of the day as a creative that I'm not doing the movement or the
00:15:49people or my communities any service
00:15:51that I'm doing anything that doesn't feel real or authentic or interesting to me.
00:15:55What's called upon for me, I think, in these moments are to do the things that bring me joy, that
00:16:01make me feel,
00:16:02that make me feel like something's resonated or brewing, that excites me.
00:16:07And also at the end of the day, too, working in Hollywood and being in the entertainment industry,
00:16:12it's to entertain people. Of course, there are always going to be a message behind it.
00:16:16And I think now, similar to what Deborah was saying, you know, I do feel challenged.
00:16:22I feel an urgency. And I think now with the access that I do have as this sort of kind
00:16:28of, you know,
00:16:31trailblazer in this space is to hopefully challenge the people that do believe in me to say that because you
00:16:37believe in me.
00:16:38Now, listen to me as I say that, you know, we need more, you know, people of color on our
00:16:43sets, in the makeup trailer,
00:16:45you know, the gaffes, the grips, you know, the drivers, all of that stuff.
00:16:50And I think that right now it's trying to figure out a way with the institutional access that I have,
00:16:57is to try to transform those spaces a little bit so that there's more people in there.
00:17:00You know, there are moments where you feel the weight, of course, but at the same time, I feel like
00:17:06I just took a giant shower.
00:17:08Like, it's just like the, you know, we didn't create the movement, the movement created me.
00:17:12And so this idea that like everyone was out there to like create this wave.
00:17:17And then they're just like, you just have to stand up.
00:17:19You just have to make something and we'll be right there.
00:17:22Reporters such as yourself and others all around the industry, actors who had been training all these years,
00:17:28doing the work, a book that that came out of this time and readers who were open to it,
00:17:33all these things, they had to come together.
00:17:35And so in my mind, I feel very free actually to finally confront the things that are scariest to me.
00:17:43I mean, it's scary to be on the front lines or have people expect that from you when you aren't
00:17:48that person.
00:17:50But at the same time, it's an honor and you have this grand responsibility.
00:17:53I grew up, my family has a restaurant and my mom and dad always told me, you know,
00:17:58they were in the kitchen and they're in the front and people in the front when you're hosting or serving,
00:18:03you know, people who come in think that you're their server and they treat you like shit sometimes.
00:18:09And I would watch this as a kid.
00:18:10And my dad, I got very upset when I saw it for the first time.
00:18:13My dad took me aside and said, listen, you know, we're one of the first came out in 1969,
00:18:17one of the first Chinese restaurants, we're ambassadors here.
00:18:19So we have to like treat them kindly and with love.
00:18:23So when they see another Chinese family that they will see them as friends and they will see them as
00:18:29equals in that way.
00:18:31You know, whether that's the right way to teach a child or not, who knows.
00:18:33But for me, it was that responsibility of being an ambassador was in my DNA.
00:18:39So when we made a movie, of course, you're going to have people come after you.
00:18:42You're going to learn a lot of lessons.
00:18:43You're not going to get everything right.
00:18:44That comes with the territory.
00:18:46And I think if I didn't watch, if I didn't see my parents go through that, I think it would
00:18:50be a lot scarier.
00:18:51So I just feel like very free to to help in whatever way to help communicate my experience.
00:18:57And where I used to think maybe there wasn't somebody who could understand that.
00:19:01I realized with the Internet, there's so many people out there.
00:19:05So and Deborah for you, I'm so curious about stepping into the Star Wars universe.
00:19:11What ended up being sort of the biggest surprise about becoming a part of that world and the reaction that
00:19:19any any move of Star Wars property gets?
00:19:23I think I underestimated it for sure.
00:19:26I mean, when we were making the series, you know, there were there actually a lot of firsts in terms
00:19:30of the directors on Mandalorian, both in terms of gender and and race.
00:19:36But when we were making it, I honestly I was we were not overthinking it.
00:19:39Like I wasn't sitting there going, oh, my God, you know, I'm going to be the first.
00:19:42And obviously, Bryce was was with me as well.
00:19:45So but it was when it came out that all of a sudden, you know, the show, I think, came
00:19:50out streaming at midnight.
00:19:51And then I woke up at 7 a.m.
00:19:53And all of a sudden, I've got like 27 texts telling me I'm trending on Twitter, which I had never
00:19:57in a million years expected would happen.
00:20:00And it was at that moment, you're like, wow, like there really is a responsibility and weight with this.
00:20:05And, you know, it's like, you know, moving forward.
00:20:07It's the same thing where you do feel it because it's it's not only the responsibility of Star Wars of
00:20:13trying not to scrub Star Wars,
00:20:14but it's also the responsibility of trying not to be the first woman or Asian who screws up Star Wars.
00:20:19But I think in large part, the only way I can kind of move forward with it is just to
00:20:23focus on the work and just trying to make something good and just sort of be, you know, be in
00:20:28that position.
00:20:28And hopefully, you know, just that brings change or, you know, what not just by sort of doing the job
00:20:34and having the opportunity to do it.
00:20:36And Anna, you went from Captain Marvel, which was the first female centered Marvel movie to working on Mrs. America.
00:20:44And obviously, that's also a story centered on feminists.
00:20:48So I'm curious, were you aware of sort of gravitating towards feminist stories back to back like that?
00:20:54Honestly, I wasn't I didn't choose it because that was, you know, I wanted to keep making feminist stories.
00:21:05But it did end up being like I'm kind of working in post on Captain Marvel in a very, very
00:21:11intense period.
00:21:12And I don't want to read anything like I'm not interested in my next project.
00:21:17I just want to take a long nap. And the script came in and and it was like these real
00:21:23life female superheroes.
00:21:25All these people who, you know, I didn't know, you know, I kind of grew up learning about and having
00:21:34so much admiration for.
00:21:36And yet it was told from such a different point of view.
00:21:41I mean, really told through like the anti-feminist Phyllis Schlafly.
00:21:46And it and it piqued my interest. It made me keep reading.
00:21:49And it didn't hurt that, you know, Cate Blanchett was also who's also kind of a female superhero was involved.
00:21:57They say that women are like tea bags.
00:22:01You don't know their strength until they get into hot water.
00:22:06And ladies, we sure did reach a boiling point.
00:22:14But when we saw that the devil was using one little word in that amendment, sex, to take away the
00:22:24rights of wives and give them to the homosexuals and to the abortionists,
00:22:28we knew we had to fight back and we are winning because we have God on our side.
00:22:34I really I don't think about, you know, what I'm going to do next as being part of like a
00:22:40theme of something I'm exploring.
00:22:42It kind of just is whatever I can get passionate enough about to focus the next couple of years of
00:22:49my life on because it's such, you know, it's so all consuming getting into a project.
00:22:56And, you know, I can't go part way with it.
00:23:01Alex and Jonah, both of your projects are so smart, you know, and let the viewers step into these imaginative
00:23:10sci-fi worlds.
00:23:11But I am curious how you think about the viewer.
00:23:15Do you ever worry that they may get lost?
00:23:18Have you ever changed a storyline or something to sort of, you know, help them out if you're if you're
00:23:25a little worried that maybe they won't understand something you're trying to deliver in your stories?
00:23:30My career began with the presumption.
00:23:34It's amazing to see how much this industry has changed in I've been here now 20 years.
00:23:41We started with my brother, Chris, with a movie that based on a short story I had written, he adapted
00:23:49it, you know, and it was with with memento was backwards and forwards.
00:23:54And it had this kind of Mobius strip construction to it.
00:23:57And the presumption at the time when we showed the movie, it was financed independently.
00:24:01I had just finished college.
00:24:02I moved out.
00:24:03We thought, shit, Hollywood is easy.
00:24:05Right.
00:24:06We turned up.
00:24:06We didn't know anybody.
00:24:07Someone gave us five million bucks.
00:24:09You begin to understand as you get older and you understand the different the different things that are helping you
00:24:13out along the way.
00:24:15But that part of it making the film was actually fairly straightforward.
00:24:18And then the time came to sell it.
00:24:20And I remember we did all these screenings one night.
00:24:22It was 20 years ago.
00:24:23It was March 2000.
00:24:24We screened the film all around town for different distributors.
00:24:27And they all came back and they said the same thing.
00:24:28They said, we loved it.
00:24:30We think it's great.
00:24:32Okay.
00:24:32Well, are you going to buy it?
00:24:34No, no, because the audience won't get it.
00:24:36And you go back to this place of what the fuck makes you think you're smarter than the audience?
00:24:41The prevailing attitude when I showed up in this town was the audience was dumb, that there was nothing you
00:24:46could you could never underestimate the audience.
00:24:48And so we banked our whole career, you know, Chris and myself at the beginning on the on the premise
00:24:54that there was an underserved part of the audience who wanted something that was challenging and complex, that the audience
00:25:01wasn't dumb, that in fact, the audience was smarter in many cases than what they were being offered.
00:25:08And so from the beginning, we kind of felt like, you know, you have this kind of lean in, lean
00:25:12forward version of of plotting.
00:25:16And look, fundamentally, I think, you know, the only way that I know how to work is to come from
00:25:20the place of writing the kind of the kind of stuff that I would enjoy watching.
00:25:25That has to be your guide if you start worrying or second guessing yourself too much.
00:25:29But that's the nice thing with the writers room.
00:25:31And that's the nice thing about television.
00:25:32The collaborative part of it is that you get to gather a really sophisticated group of people together and try
00:25:38it out.
00:25:38And you can feel in the room if the confused looks, you know, you've got a little bit of work
00:25:44to do to make sure it's clear.
00:25:46Alex, how about for you when it comes to devs?
00:25:50I know you were the writer, the director, the creator.
00:25:53You wore all the hats.
00:25:54So how much do you think about the viewer and how much they may or may not understand of what
00:25:59you're presenting?
00:26:00Not very much.
00:26:01I sort of try sometimes.
00:26:03I try to imagine, will this plot point make sense?
00:26:09Is it clear that this car is on that side of that car?
00:26:13Or some of the sort of mechanical type stuff.
00:26:44But broadly speaking I think when i'm making something pretty quiet,
00:26:47quickly I just drop into a hole and then I'm in that hole and I'm kind of really just working
00:26:54on instinct and so I think in truth not really very much. I come from a sort of independent
00:27:01film background a bit like Jonah and I wrote it as a spec basically. I think the issue I've
00:27:10always had with pitches and treatments is that I personally can't tell from a treatment whether
00:27:18it will work as a script and so it's it's much it's actually much easier for me to write it
00:27:26as
00:27:26a script and they don't all get made sometimes people don't want to make them that well that you
00:27:31know that's the breaks but so yeah there was no pitch there was a script and then you're you've
00:27:40got a good creative position because people aren't there for notes you're really saying do you want
00:27:45to make it or not so you know. What's the most heartbreaking one that didn't get made? You don't
00:27:51have to tell us the premise but. Ah the most heartbreaking ones are some of the ones that did
00:27:55get made. I'd much rather have a bad script not get made than a bad script made that that's uh
00:28:05but
00:28:05but you know that would be kissing and telling. John with Home Before Dark I I read that you were
00:28:12were finishing up Crazy Rich Asians and you were looking for something meaningful to do next can you
00:28:16tell me what about that project you felt um was meaningful and drew you to it? Uh you know Crazy
00:28:22Rich Asians changed my whole perspective of what kind of uh stories you know when you make a movie like
00:28:27that and that energy on set of of everyone having a higher purpose uh it's hard to go back and
00:28:33so when we're
00:28:34talking about TV and I had not really done TV before um uh my friend Dana Fox came to me
00:28:41and Joy Gorman
00:28:42from Anonymous and they said you just had a daughter because I had a a little girl uh two weeks
00:28:47after
00:28:47shooting uh Crazy Rich Asians and she's like we we have we have this story about a father daughter
00:28:52um journalist uh of journalist family basically and um I remember hearing Hilde uh Lysiak's story of this
00:28:59this nine-year-old who broke a story in her hometown and I remember seeing her YouTube videos of of
00:29:05people having all these bad comments on her and rather than sort of shrink back she made a video
00:29:10where she read all the bad comments out loud and I just that had stuck with me for years and
00:29:15so when
00:29:15they brought that up that they got the rights to that and that this was not going to be um
00:29:19like a
00:29:19kid's show kid's show this was uh for the whole family um but it was going to treat she was
00:29:25going to
00:29:25be the main role and that uh we could treat this little girl as seriously as any uh hero in
00:29:32any
00:29:32superhero movie um that was very exciting for me the idea of the search for truth is the thing that
00:29:37really got me. What did you do? I'm a journalist. No you're a fourth grader. You sent this to the
00:29:42whole effing school? Easy language. Technically effing isn't. Hilde, not now. You left the house in the
00:29:50middle of the night? Come on what were you thinking? Mom said we could have more freedom here. Yeah well
00:29:55that's gone now. Someone we know got murdered last night. Okay come on Ginny screen time. This idea that
00:30:03the scariest thing in this was not going to be some monster under the bed this was going to be
00:30:07the
00:30:07stuff that we sweep under the rug um and confronting that stuff um it's a portrait of a family um
00:30:13and how
00:30:14important journalism is um and even from a little girl what you pour into your kids is a reflection of
00:30:19what you hope to be and they spit it right back at you like a mirror and so I just
00:30:24loved all those
00:30:25dynamics that it was this pulpy fun mystery but at the same time had a message of of journalism the
00:30:31importance of journalism and then um and a family understanding family um so that's really what
00:30:37drew it to me and then to be able to work with Apple plus they were you know they're in
00:30:41their infancy
00:30:42so it was fun to just like get on that. I grew up in Cupertino near Apple so it was
00:30:47fun to sort of
00:30:47come home and and and work on that with them. And Janet you have so much work you've done over
00:30:53the last year but I'm especially curious about um Hollywood because it does explore you know if
00:30:59different diverse people had really gotten to have um more moments in in this industry. Can you tell
00:31:06me about what about that project what it felt like to sort of explore the what ifs if if old
00:31:12Hollywood
00:31:13had had had been that different? I've always been you know fascinated with 1940s kind of star making
00:31:20machine of the studio system and the films at that time period were kind of like building blocks for
00:31:26me and my own kind of you know my obsession with glamour and you know the way that people move
00:31:33their
00:31:33bodies and a lot of the things that you kind of see in my work and you know there's always
00:31:39a piece of
00:31:39me you know as a black trans child growing up in America looking at those images and not necessarily
00:31:47seeing yourself and then when you do see like a little spark of yourself like Alina Horn flutters
00:31:52on screen for one scene to sing you know a number and then is cut in the south because they
00:31:58don't want
00:31:59to see a black woman on screen you know those kind of things are what kind of pushed me to
00:32:03want
00:32:03to work on Hollywood with Ryan and Ian and so I think that the revisionist history of it was
00:32:10interesting to me as a fan of that time period and really thinking about these conversations about you
00:32:18know how the gatekeepers are able to make the decisions that they do why they continue to make
00:32:24the same films over and over and over again why they put the same stars in over and over and
00:32:29over again
00:32:29why they say certain things don't work when they never tried before and then when things do work
00:32:34it's a fluke well you know what I am finished with patience and civility nobody's taking your name
00:32:41off any fuck this studio head fuck these white people in charge they don't play fair so why should
00:32:49we I felt like an uncle tom even writing this goddamn script about this dumbass white girl that ain't my
00:32:54life that ain't my story that's their story and it's still it ain't good enough and so for us you
00:33:05know the challenge when I came into the room they had written three episodes already and it was very
00:33:09much like a sex romp about the gas station and kind of that seedy world and then you're going into
00:33:15the studio system world um and I had made a pitch to Ryan I said what if you know the
00:33:23one colored girl
00:33:23on contract ends up fighting for screen test and she gets the role how does that change everything
00:33:29how do the people outside the studio system react how do you know say like the kkk you know in
00:33:37episode
00:33:38six I had to do cross burnings which were its own magnificent thing because the imagery of it was so
00:33:44powerful um but as we're sitting there you know talking about the mechanics of it I'm like oh wow we're
00:33:49really burning crosses on three lawns you know in Hancock Park um and it was like this weird kind
00:33:56of thing and so for me that kind of was the the interesting part about working on Hollywood was
00:34:02um being able to make those little twists and like if you say what if we cast the black girl
00:34:07what happens then and everything kind of shifted in the series for the last basically five episodes
00:34:12because of that one little pitch and this is pretty unusual for a director's round table but
00:34:17uh we have two directors who worked together on on devs Janet you had an acting role on on the
00:34:23show
00:34:23which I think is so fun can you guys tell me about how that came about and what it what
00:34:29you may have
00:34:30learned from working together in that respect you know it was obviously I was a fan and admirer of Alex's
00:34:36work and so when Carmen Cuba um the casting director and producer I believe on Mrs. America asked me to
00:34:43read for the role of senator I was just like it says she's 50 something years old like what
00:34:47you know I had never acted before but she's kind of been obsessed with this thing and then she said
00:34:52Alex Garland and I was like oh my god and so for me I took it as you know I
00:34:56had just shot I think only
00:34:57had done two episodes at that point of directing and I was like this would be a great experiment for
00:35:04me to
00:35:05see what it feels like to be an actor on a set you know and the not knowing of it
00:35:10all and the the lack of
00:35:12control in a sense um and just the the trust you have to give you know to the process um
00:35:19and you know
00:35:21what was so great is that Alex had written and directed all eight he knew exactly the moments that
00:35:27he needed and it was easy to just trust the process but at the same time I left with a
00:35:33huge appreciation
00:35:35um for actors and and what they do and the bravery of just like you do it on the day
00:35:40and then it just
00:35:40disappears and it comes back and it's like this beautiful thing you're like oh my god did I do that
00:35:45well it's like yeah had you ever acted before no Alex what was it like for you to to know
00:35:55you had
00:35:55another director on set uh you know watching your work you know it was good fun um it's uh I
00:36:02the thing
00:36:03about the thing about work is that um on the one hand you're constructing you know a tv show or
00:36:11a movie
00:36:12or whatever it is and there's something kind of grand about that in some respects but in other ways
00:36:18you're you're really like a bunch of people standing around a hole in the road trying to figure out how
00:36:23to
00:36:23fill it and um and and there's a lot of it's it's all very practical you know on on the
00:36:30day on set it's
00:36:31really quite practical and straightforward and and it's quite fun having unexpected aspects like a
00:36:38director acting that's that's that's a good thing you know it sort of sort of brightens up the day
00:36:43I guess what I didn't know was whether I I felt very confident about Janet and part of that comes
00:36:50from
00:36:50my confidence in Carmen Cuba I suppose as well but I felt confident what I didn't know was what will
00:36:57the very first moment be like you know because because I I'd never do that I'd never stand in
00:37:03front of a camera and read lines never and and so there's a sort of suspended like held breath beat
00:37:10of is Janet actually going to be able to do this and then she just did and then it's just
00:37:15good fun
00:37:16you know it was good I really enjoyed it and Deborah you had a small role in the Mandalorian
00:37:22tell me was that just uh a fun little appearance how did that come about that started as a joke
00:37:28that I think I ever thought was actually going to happen um and it was supposed to just be a
00:37:34cameo with
00:37:34no lines at all uh so it's it's developed like a life of its own but yeah we were when
00:37:41we were the
00:37:41three of us decided to do it and we went on the day of shooting um you know Jon Favreau
00:37:46was watching
00:37:47and he basically just started throwing us lines as we were sitting there and then all of a sudden
00:37:51we're all like no we don't want to join SAG we don't we don't want lines um I wouldn't say
00:37:57I mean I
00:37:58don't know I think for Rick and I neither of us have even been able to watch it it's that
00:38:02horrifying
00:38:02for us like we I definitely do not want to be an actor but well let's talk about that relationship
00:38:07with actors because obviously it's so key uh to your work what would you say makes that
00:38:14collaboration you know it's just as easy as it can be trust trust yeah absolutely I mean and you have
00:38:21to build that with every step every moment you have to make it clear that that you've created a safe
00:38:29space and in exchange you get to a different place you can you can ask I mean you know I
00:38:35I'm not
00:38:36100 sure frankly the my presence on set makes any damn difference at all we have this on Westworld we
00:38:42have one of the most ridiculously talented casts um I could imagine and so not really I'd flatter
00:38:50myself by imagining that anything gets better when I show up on set but you know I think part of
00:38:56what
00:38:56Lisa and I did from the beginning on that show was create a place in which and part of that
00:39:00is how
00:39:00you design your set and who you allow to be on your set and the rules that you that you
00:39:05build just
00:39:06making sure that people that these incredibly talented people who you've asked to reveal pieces
00:39:12of themselves um feel safe to do so that they feel that um that they can trust you I love
00:39:20creating that
00:39:21process with my actors for for uh Home Before Dark specifically with Brooklyn Prince who's nine years old
00:39:27eight actually when I shot with her um which is pretty amazing for an eight-year-old to carry a
00:39:32show and and she wouldn't just like say lines like she really had to understand it and I don't know
00:39:37the perspective of an eight-year-old little girl and so we would have a lot of conversations uh with
00:39:44me and her uh without her parents just about like what does this mean what does what does this word
00:39:49mean
00:39:49what does this moment mean Jim Sturgis uh who plays her father and Abby Miller her mother uh you know
00:39:54we'd have
00:39:54these family meetings just in the fake kitchen there talking about um uh how how Brooklyn felt
00:40:01about being bullied or how uh or how Hilde would feel sometimes we even call Hilde herself and talk
00:40:07to her and I think that to have an actor that that that understands that perspective um and wants you
00:40:14know Brooklyn would say often like I just want to make Hilde proud like I want to know what that
00:40:18how she felt there to to present that properly and so when we when she takes it seriously we take
00:40:24her
00:40:24seriously and it's just like I love finding that everybody's currency and finding the process where
00:40:30we can all work on this canvas together Anna how about for you what makes the best uh actor director
00:40:36collaboration for you part of it I think is just chemical and like there are certain people who um
00:40:43really like you just start talking the same language right away uh but one it reminds me of like one
00:40:49of
00:40:49the really early um things I learned from an actor on our first movies it's like you spend so long
00:40:57especially as an independent director when you're writing something on spec and you're trying to get
00:41:02it sold and you're trying to cast it and you're trying to put it together and you've created this
00:41:07entire world in your head and you feel like you know every minutia of how everything should be and then
00:41:14you
00:41:14start inviting people into the process and um you know one of the first things I learned from my actors
00:41:22was you know it was it was an argument about what the facial hair of one of the characters should
00:41:29be and I
00:41:29had this idea I like knew how it was going to be I had imagined it a million times and
00:41:34the facial hair
00:41:35should be this way and then the actor had a different idea and said you know when I look in
00:41:41the mirror
00:41:41I feel like the character and um it really like I think about that all the time because whatever
00:41:51you know this person comes in and they're bringing this whole new life to it and it becomes this whole
00:41:56new collaboration and whatever you can do as a director to help them feel most like the character so
00:42:02they're going to give their best performance and that's kind of you know what Ryan and I try to do
00:42:08I haven't mentioned Ryan yet but he's my co-director who I always work with and really trying to create
00:42:16that space where we're opening up our thing that we've had that's just ours and really inviting actors
00:42:24into it and trying to create a space where they you know like you said trust just feel like they
00:42:29can try
00:42:30a million things and fail and you know and it's like a safe space to do that what do you
00:42:37do if you
00:42:38are not able to sort of collaborate well with an actor I'm sure some of you have had this experience
00:42:44over the years how do you get past that and and work through something like that you just kill off
00:42:49the
00:42:49character no no you gotta you gotta work through it I mean you gotta you know the tv is t
00:42:58i mean tv is
00:42:59changing but tv is like a like a marriage right a film's like a like a you know like a
00:43:04fling but tv
00:43:05is like a marriage you're gonna make it work with your core cast you've got to figure it out very
00:43:08quickly and if it if it's not working you need to sit down and I think sit down and really
00:43:12talk it
00:43:13through and and and you know and figure it out unless it happens at the table read in which case
00:43:19pre-cast
00:43:19yeah
00:43:23for me my only experience has always been as first in the writer's room and then going to shoot the
00:43:30scripts that I write um and so uh I think that what Jonah said a little earlier about the trust
00:43:37of the
00:43:37process I think that what most of the actors on the two shows that I've been on what they call
00:43:43for
00:43:43me is that I have a command of story and I know what I'm looking for and then that way
00:43:47they can show
00:43:47up and do new things and try new things I don't think I've ever had anyone yet um just kind
00:43:55of give
00:43:55me what they want to give you know some of the more veteran actors will kind of have that you
00:44:00know
00:44:00these this is what I'm going to do and I'm not going to shift from that and I think oftentimes
00:44:04you
00:44:05have to then go in and have a little you know a little powwow usually in rehearsal or you know
00:44:10take a little bit of a break and explain the process of like where we're going for art for pose
00:44:16and for Hollywood as we were shooting we didn't have all the scripts out yet and so I could use
00:44:22that
00:44:22oftentimes um to say well your character's going here and so you can talk things through to like
00:44:29justify sometimes why I need specifically why I need and most times it just comes from a process of like
00:44:34them knowing that I'm actually watching every little thing that they're doing and I'm intentional
00:44:39about the direction that I'm giving and I don't over talk anything um but yeah you know some days
00:44:45you have difficult actors who don't show up on time who don't do this don't do that and slowly but
00:44:50surely as Jonah said you know they kind of get written down and down and down because they're not as
00:44:54dependable it's simple sometimes sometimes that tension is great you know that that energy uh shows
00:45:03up on screen and so like some of my most difficult actors like and we could say difficult but like
00:45:08sometimes it's just perfectionist or trying to understand something that that I don't necessarily
00:45:13understand and so um I love fighting through that because energy is energy and when that camera turns on
00:45:20you feel it and they're trying and they're pushing and you're pushing it's like there's something that
00:45:24it creates there I wish I could get to that place the sort of Werner Herzog Klaus Kinski you know
00:45:30I'm
00:45:30going to stand behind the camera with a rifle pointing at the actor's place but I don't think I'm capable
00:45:35of it I just find I find I honestly find directing so difficult that when people kind of can't get
00:45:42out of
00:45:42their own space I mean it's you know as Alex said you're all out there often literally by the side
00:45:48of the road
00:45:48looking in a hole in the ground it's a lovely metaphor and you sort of feel they're the folks
00:45:53who sort of appreciate how difficult everyone's job is on set and just try to show up and I've been
00:45:59I've been I've been really really lucky in working with generous actors and grown-ups Deborah I do
00:46:05want to hear about you know stepping into Mandalorian of course there were multiple directors on this
00:46:10project and I'm curious how that affects the way you worked on your episodes how much are you thinking
00:46:17about what came before and what came after your specific episodes it was an it was an interesting
00:46:23experience because it was like nothing I'd ever done in television before just because the process
00:46:29was completely different you know because we were in there so early I was there two and a half months
00:46:33ahead and we previous everything going in because obviously we're doing the volume technology which we
00:46:39had to do the previous for it so what as a result what was really interesting about it was that
00:46:44all the directors got to really know each other because we'd all be doing previous or you know
00:46:49prep at different times so as opposed to like sort of regular TV or traditional TV where you kind of
00:46:55maybe just overlap a little bit with somebody and sort of ships passing in the night it really we really
00:47:00got to know each other and we actually started I think a lot in a lot of ways you know
00:47:06leaning on
00:47:07each other and sort of collaborating to sort of figure out okay like you know movement like how are we
00:47:12how is
00:47:12the character how are we defining this character by movement so it was an interesting process because
00:47:17it was almost like a team which I have never been part of in such a way trying to find
00:47:23the first season
00:47:23and it would also we also didn't shoot in order so everything was sort of shot out of order it
00:47:28didn't go
00:47:29sort of one and and carry on so it was an interesting process where I think we really learned from
00:47:34each
00:47:34other and we we all sort of developed the language together
00:48:02something I want
00:48:06I know you're working on the Obi-Wan series which you'll be directing throughout how different will
00:48:11that be sort of being in in charge of it all it's definitely going to be different uh just in
00:48:16terms
00:48:16of the the sheer workload obviously of doing the whole thing um but in some ways you know in some
00:48:23ways I'm going to miss having a team honestly and having people that are there to sort of bounce ideas
00:48:26off them um but then obviously the flip side is it is nice to kind of have like a coherent
00:48:30voice and know
00:48:31sort of what you're doing from beginning to end and and be thinking about the whole thing as one
00:48:36so you have to previs every shot in uh in the volume uh or you or do you can you
00:48:42riff on the day
00:48:43to an extent I mean you do have to previs because basically they're going out to get the you know
00:48:48they're doing the photogrammetry and they're building the environment um so you need a fairly
00:48:52time like of several weeks in order for them to have that content ready on the screen
00:48:56um so once you've got you once you have it on the screen then you could riff to a certain
00:49:02extent
00:49:02you know I mean you could within the environment you could change the blocking somewhat or you know
00:49:06change the angles but you can't change what's on the screen you know so that's that's what you're
00:49:11having to commit to early on and Alex tell me about how you work with your actors sort of helping
00:49:19them prepare to step into the world you've created do you suggest books or films or do you just have
00:49:24talks
00:49:24with them um how do you sort of get them prepared for those roles that they're taking on it really
00:49:29depends on the actor there are some actors who you know who really just want to turn up and do
00:49:35it
00:49:36and um uh too much discussion beforehand would make them anxious and uh there's a there's others who who
00:49:44find their comfort in the space by talking and talking and talking and and swapping books or articles
00:49:50or youtube videos or or going on research trips to talk to whoever is relevant for their role or whatever
00:49:57so so I just I really just try and do uh just do what the actor needs the the only
00:50:04the only requirement
00:50:05I do or the only requirement I ask for uh is that everybody uh agrees to rehearsal for all the
00:50:14principal
00:50:15members of cast um uh sorry Janet wasn't wasn't you on this one uh we blocked out two weeks before
00:50:24principal photography and then we shot in blocks so we'd keep doing a rehearsal period before all the
00:50:30blocks and that also came from uh having worked on film I I know not everyone rehearses I simply don't
00:50:38understand why they don't it's only upside as far as I can tell um there's a lot of questions that
00:50:44might get
00:50:44asked on set and slow the day down that get dealt with if you rehearse properly so it's not it's
00:50:51not
00:50:51to kill the performance it's for everyone to agree you know not know why a line exists know why this
00:50:58character feels that about that character so but aside from rehearsals I'm completely malleable according
00:51:04to whatever the actor wants do any of the rest of you uh believe as strongly in rehearsals or maybe
00:51:11not
00:51:11hold as much value to them for me rehearsals are that safe space where we truly get to talk about
00:51:17the material oftentimes we don't have time in our schedules to be able to do it beyond on the day
00:51:25so we
00:51:25do it before we set up cameras and I get to discuss my thoughts around blocking where I kind of
00:51:31want
00:51:31people at where how I want to see them move we get to you know I get to have their
00:51:35feedback on what they
00:51:36believe or what they felt that their character would be doing specifically like on a show like
00:51:41pose where you know now we're in our third season um they have very clear opinions about you know what
00:51:49they want for their characters um and so we have to have that space I agree with Alex to be
00:51:54able to
00:51:55discuss that stuff and suss it out before the cameras go up and then you have a hundred other
00:52:00people around you watching and so I think in those private rehearsals for me it's it's essential to be able
00:52:05to have a to actually have complete a day and get what I need I 100 agree um Ryan and
00:52:12I really have
00:52:13have always done rehearsals and sometimes that rehearsal isn't necessarily blocking out a scene
00:52:19it depends what the scene requires if there isn't a lot of blocking in a scene then you don't need
00:52:25to
00:52:26and you have a certain kind of actor who doesn't like to kill it in that way or mark it
00:52:32out in that
00:52:32way but at least like reading through the script and talking about um you know character and story
00:52:39and getting some of those conversations out so that you're um just just closer to being able to
00:52:46delve into it in a more rich way when you're on set um we always love to do that on
00:52:51our movies and and
00:52:52I do think that sometimes it does um particularly on television feel like uh something that you don't
00:53:00always get to do or don't always get to do in as thorough a way um on mrs america our
00:53:06first two
00:53:07episodes we had a lot of time with the actors and particularly with uh kate blanchett and john
00:53:13slattery who play a couple in in the um series we had a lot of time with them and we
00:53:19actually went to
00:53:20the location and used the space and talked through some of the scenes and it was setting up their
00:53:27characters and setting up their dynamic it was so helpful um we didn't always have that by the time
00:53:33we got to the finale episode and um i i did miss that time um but you know you deal
00:53:41with it and you
00:53:43know we made it work but um you know and part of that was just the learning experience of working
00:53:48on
00:53:49television where uh you know we're used to having the script i don't know how you worked um alex because
00:53:56you wrote and directed all the episodes but we didn't have the script for episode nine you know
00:54:02while we were shooting episode one and two and so that was a real learning curve for us in terms
00:54:07of
00:54:07how things are getting written as you go in television did you write everything before you
00:54:14started shooting that yeah so so so yeah because it was a it's a limited what do you call it
00:54:21limited
00:54:21limited series so um yeah so i just uh and i apart from anything i couldn't have been writing and
00:54:29also
00:54:30that sort of rolling state of writing just wouldn't have been possible um but anyway i couldn't have done
00:54:36it any i i sort of need to know what the ending is i guess but but i do i
00:54:40do understand that other
00:54:41process and um and it interests me um it sounds scary in in a sort of good way um a
00:54:49sort of like
00:54:50take take the parachute jump and you're not exactly sure did anyone strap it on and you'll find out
00:54:56about halfway down and there's something sort of something kind of exciting about that i guess um if
00:55:02you've got a death wish anyway and uh um but but no i i took the cautious route i took
00:55:07the the sort of
00:55:08the the safe option i'm gonna write down some of your metaphors because i like them
00:55:15well you know what's so interesting about the the latter process is that you talk about the
00:55:20collaborative nature of television and specifically in series where you have different arcs over various
00:55:26series you have to retool sometimes based on how an actor shows up or their strengths and so you'll
00:55:32notice something like very early on we didn't know that billy porter would step up and be a lead on
00:55:37pose we didn't know that until we saw him on stage corralling this crew of you know 300 background
00:55:45actors and it's just like wow there's a presence here that is so much bigger than him just staying
00:55:50standing behind the microphone podium we then gave him we made pray tell an even bigger character and
00:55:56it's all because of how they showed up so we had the first two scripts written and we had drafts
00:56:01of um
00:56:02the next three episodes and then we went back and retooled after the pilot and we gave billy so much
00:56:07more so many more scenes with blanca which became kind of the heart of the show and so similar we
00:56:12had
00:56:12that on on hollywood as well that you get to kind of see how they are in the pilot and
00:56:16you sit there and
00:56:16you watch and you're just like oh wait there's something here like the rock hudson character is
00:56:22actually comedic and he's funny he's a little goofy it's like let's write more to that and so we retooled
00:56:28things for the later scripts based on those strengths that the actors come up with or have
00:56:32neatly so i do want to ask you all about um going back onto set and into production you know
00:56:38uh things
00:56:39are starting to move in that direction and obviously as the directors you are the leaders on set how are
00:56:45you feeling about the idea of production starting up again and what do you feel like will have to
00:56:50change for that to work for you i'll jump in i'm feeling very apprehensive about it you know you do
00:56:56feel
00:56:56i think um in in television be the director but also the executive producer i mean you know you
00:57:02feel very responsible for your crew feel responsible for them right now because you know all crews plan
00:57:10for a month or two of not working right it's we're showbiz folks this is how it works nobody plans
00:57:15for i
00:57:16think with the sort of big um productions that you know the big on location stuff that all of us
00:57:23shoot
00:57:24it's going to take a long time to figure out how to do those again and how to do them
00:57:28safely we had
00:57:29a relatively minor illness um westworld season three and it was a you know it was a massive
00:57:38amount of money that went into that it's hugely disruptive so if you consider a disease
00:57:42that you know that incubates for 14 to 18 days that people can be asymptomatic and still we still
00:57:49know so little about this so on a level feeling concerned feeling worried about your crew's
00:57:55physical safety i think we have a lot left to figure out for these big productions there's certain
00:58:00things that can go back into production yeah and i think if we were you know as as directors you
00:58:05are
00:58:05responsible for these people and like we were finishing in the heights we were in the mix and i knew
00:58:10as soon as schools and we were going like we had we had a deadline and as soon as schools
00:58:14were shut down and
00:58:15kids like our our mixers our sound editors their kids were coming home and i could see in their face
00:58:21that they didn't of course they're going to work of course they're going to finish our movie but i can
00:58:26feel in them that they are they have kids coming home and they don't know what to do with them
00:58:29and so
00:58:30there is a responsibility in our roles to protect them um and when the government's not necessarily
00:58:36doing it then we have to take it upon ourselves i think that that response i i've never really felt
00:58:41that responsibility until this time really being like we i need to fight with the studio whoever's
00:58:47paying for this because i know they want to move forward but like we have to protect our crew who's
00:58:50sitting here in pain because they don't know they're gonna fight for our movie but like they're in a
00:58:55tough situation so i think all those things if someone were to get it if someone's parents or kids
00:59:01get it like i don't want that on my shoulders either so there's a lot of questions of what what
00:59:07to do i
00:59:07think there's also like what kind of production what are the stories that you can actually do and
00:59:12maybe do and i'm not sure i feel that comfortable just for my own to protect my own family really
00:59:16i have a two-month-old at home so i have been just extremely um conservative about this whole thing
00:59:26in in in my own personal life and so you know i just totally agree with um everything you guys
00:59:33just
00:59:34said about yeah feeling a lot of concern about what that looks like and um making sure that
00:59:41maybe there's like a resort movie that we could all make where like everything's shot in the resort
00:59:48it's a great film and everyone can bring their families and we all quarantine together on the resort
00:59:53and we just shoot everything in the resort and eat the resort food i don't know but that's not
00:59:57something that i'm really seriously thinking about you know there is just one thing i understand the
01:00:04apprehension and of course it's correct to have apprehension uh and i've got it too but at the same
01:00:10time i don't i don't know if we can all sit around saying a vaccine is going to turn up
01:00:16and we do work in
01:00:17an industry and and the the people that we're talking about protecting there's other ways they need
01:00:23protecting as as well as their physical health which is economically and uh they need to work um
01:00:30and so we do have to find a way to get back on set to get productions going and whether
01:00:37that is
01:00:37like you the day works a lot slower possibly so it's like you know you do the lighting and then
01:00:45everyone
01:00:45steps back and then the grips come in and sort out the dolly or like however it's done the sort
01:00:52of
01:00:52circus all moving together the circus starts to splinter up maybe it's something like that i don't
01:00:57know but but what i really feel is i kind of i'm getting to the point where i want to
01:01:03start figuring
01:01:03out how to get on with it because it's it's the only thing i've maybe ever agreed with donald trump
01:01:09about which is that the that some of the economic consequences become quite serious in themselves you
01:01:15know if if people aren't earning if people don't have money recessions kill people just the same way
01:01:21viruses do and so uh i i'm i'm definitely gonna stop saying that because i really i can feel like
01:01:28i'm breaking out in hives uh um finding myself in a point of agreement with him but but i do
01:01:35i do think
01:01:36we need to get back to work i really really do feel that strongly and so i spend quite a
01:01:42lot of time
01:01:42thinking about the practical aspects of it about how to actually get on a set how to make it function
01:01:48sort of reasonably safely i i i don't think we're going to be able to say nobody's going to get
01:01:54covid i i that that that seems impossible so so we have to go into it in a certain kind
01:02:00of way and
01:02:01like do the best we can but we kind of we do need to get on with it do you
01:02:04think that smaller crews like i
01:02:07i mean is that going back to a way of working that um that maybe we kind of uh started
01:02:14out with
01:02:14you know small indie films i i think that that indie model where where it's quite gorilla it's
01:02:22quite stripped back but at the same time you can get a tracking shot you know it doesn't it doesn't
01:02:28mean everything has to be handheld with one key light you can it gives a lot of flexibility but
01:02:33i and and maybe that's the baby steps before we get back into the kind of big movies that you
01:02:38know
01:02:38like you guys know how to make i've never worked on a thing like that but but i i kind
01:02:43of uh yeah i i
01:02:45just feel i i'm sort of like straining at the leash a bit you know i think there's two parts
01:02:51to it
01:02:51right someone used the metaphor for me with regards to the american economy in in the face of this crisis
01:02:56it's like a car that's built it's like a dragster it's built to go 400 miles an hour it's got
01:03:00no
01:03:00fucking seat belts so if we hit the first bump everyone dies right there is no structure in our
01:03:07country for supporting people in a moment like this and i think the other thing we need to think
01:03:11of yeah we need to think of ways to get back to work it's very important but we also need
01:03:15to look
01:03:15at our industry and figure out okay look everyone you know everyone's accustomed to the you you work
01:03:21for a few months and then you take a few weeks off a few months maybe the job comes maybe
01:03:24doesn't
01:03:25i mean in many ways hollywood people are kind of adapted to this world right this is how we live
01:03:29we do
01:03:30some work we stop the work dries up for a bit you go back to work but is that really
01:03:34how it should be
01:03:34so we've been working with the motion picture and television fund which is a tremendous organization
01:03:38in terms of making sure that there's a little bit more of a backstop for our crew members and making
01:03:44sure look the reality is no we're not going to wait necessarily for a vaccine right but we will wait
01:03:50to
01:03:50figure out the appropriate responsible methodologies where you can know you're not going to be able to
01:03:55guarantee no one gets sick but you have to get to a place where um you you feel good about
01:04:02inviting
01:04:02your family back on the set and you feel like you're not going to become you know the reason
01:04:07and so you need resources in place we need to figure out methodologies for being able to shoot but we
01:04:12also
01:04:12need to figure out take a look at take a hard look at our business and say is this the
01:04:15way it should be
01:04:16where people are paid for a certain amount of work and then discarded or you know is there is there
01:04:21more work that we could be doing to make sure that our industry like other industries when things
01:04:25shut down because this ain't you know this isn't the last time this is going to happen um that the
01:04:29resources are there to make sure that you know that things don't get too disparate for people in our
01:04:34business joan i did want to ask you about season three of westworld and directing because i know you
01:04:40didn't direct in season two but you decided to take on uh this episode in season three what was it
01:04:46about this one that you had to do yourself every time i direct i'm taking a slot away from
01:04:51someone else who could be bringing something different to it so season two uh and lisa and
01:04:56i run the show together lisa directed in the second season and did an amazing amazing episode and now
01:05:02went off to make a movie she's gotten very fancy very quickly uh i i stuck around uh and and
01:05:09on season
01:05:09three it really felt like look we're reinventing the grammar of the show completely we're going from
01:05:14this is one of the things we're excited about with the show is that in every season it could subtly
01:05:18shift
01:05:19genre almost looks like it makes sense from up here all you see is the order of it plan your
01:05:30plan
01:05:33doesn't inside control all of it even the traffic with just the technology
01:05:38so we had been shooting a western and for this season we needed to to really take a look and
01:05:47from
01:05:47the beginning lisa and i struggled with okay well how how is this going to work what's it going
01:05:50to look like how do you do it on a tv schedule and budget um luckily we have one of
01:05:54the most
01:05:55fantastically talented uh crews uh you know that i've ever worked with incredibly imaginative
01:06:02but i really felt like it wouldn't be fair i felt like i i needed to be the guinea pig
01:06:06i had a
01:06:06vision you know you're threading the needle here in terms of you know visions of the future blade
01:06:13runner has kind of set you know kind of dominated the space for so long uh you know you're asking
01:06:18someone to invent a visual language near future i think is actually is actually in many ways you
01:06:22know kind of the tallest order you know far future you can get out there and you can kind of
01:06:26create
01:06:27from whole cloth near future you need to come up with something that also rings true for an audience
01:06:31so i felt like look i'll have a lot of ideas uh and i i really didn't want to um
01:06:36put anyone in the
01:06:37position of of if i figured if we screwed it up it would be it would be my fault and
01:06:42i would have only
01:06:42myself to blame and in truth i just love working with our our cast and crew so it was it
01:06:47was a lot
01:06:47of fun to be to be back back in the director's seat so guys we're going to end this with
01:06:51uh one lighter
01:06:52question i'm going to have you all answer and the question is if there was one director alive or dead
01:06:58you could sit down with and pick his or her brain about their work uh who would you pick and
01:07:05what did
01:07:06you want what do you want to know fuck holy fucking shit yeah that's a big question
01:07:13that's such an unfair question did you say alive or dead well i'm i'm just gonna i'm just gonna say
01:07:20a
01:07:20name right because it's a long list okay but uh just because uh i've been watching and stuff recently
01:07:28re-watching uh i was gonna say nick rogue um uh walkabout don't look now uh man who fell to
01:07:36earth
01:07:37um because there's some there's there's decisions that get made within those films that are absolutely
01:07:43fascinating and i would like to know how those decisions got made so i'd say i'd say nick rogue but
01:07:51i could say peter weir as well because i re-watched picnic at hanging rock the other day and that
01:07:56is a very
01:07:56very interesting movie but anyway i said nick rogue so i'm gonna stay with nick rogue to be honest one
01:08:02of those people would be alex garland for sure uh i love his movies i love his brain i uh
01:08:10i would
01:08:11want to i would i would love to talk about the future with him no no joke that's like thank
01:08:17you
01:08:17that's very kind the details of the future these are the things that like i i i stay up at
01:08:22night
01:08:23thinking about i don't make movies about them yet because i just don't feel smart enough
01:08:26so what about when i watch your movies i i i i see such uh honesty in technology and um
01:08:34and humanity
01:08:35and i just think that that's such a beautiful thing because i think it's something we're all
01:08:38gonna it's such a thing we're all gonna be having to confront very soon if not already um and i
01:08:44just
01:08:44think you you you have a view of a perspective that's so fascinating and interesting and that we're
01:08:49all gonna have to engage in that conversation sooner rather than later well i'm definitely blushing
01:08:54john thank you very much for some reason the first name that popped up was it was nora efron
01:08:59and george kukor and i think because they you know both of them were kind of dismissed for doing
01:09:05women's pictures um and there's something about you know specifically for nora there is a clear kind of
01:09:13you know parallel in in our career she started off as a journalist and then started writing about her
01:09:18life and then she wrote a screenplay for hollywood and then she got to write and direct and so just
01:09:23wanting to just sit with her over a meal that she cooks and you know ask her about everything um
01:09:30including what i should wear and what doctor i should go to um but then also like how she did
01:09:36it
01:09:36what made her jump in how did she learn um what did she learn how did she get better you
01:09:42know those
01:09:42kinds of questions i'd say kurosawa i would love to sit down with him um i'd have a lot of
01:09:48questions
01:09:49and i think the biggest question is just that how how he managed to make things so powerful
01:09:54um with such sort of seemingly simple stories uh and just kind of learn from that the first name i'm
01:10:01just gonna say the first name that popped into my mind because there were a lot of names right
01:10:04afterwards um which was robert altman i've just i think he was one of the first filmmakers i watched
01:10:12um you know when i started like around when i was a teenager started watching movies and just really
01:10:18feeling like oh my god i i could just fall into these characters and um and you know the way
01:10:27that
01:10:28he kind of is able to explore character and have this kind of light naturalistic touch but um i don't
01:10:37know i would just i'd love to spend a day with him i was gonna say kurosawa so
01:10:42deborah you blew me up uh but it's true i don't really understand i watch his i go back to
01:10:48his
01:10:48films and watch them again and i don't we try to do uh what we did uh samurai episodes in
01:10:53the second
01:10:54season of westworld which is one of the most uh enjoyable experiences as a producer i've gotten to
01:11:01participate in um i look back at those productions and i don't understand how he did them um just
01:11:07extraordinary and in those days when you didn't have the luxury of fixing it in post
01:11:11just the ambition the scale the largesse but also the small human beauty that he smuggled in every
01:11:18frame incredible thank you so much everyone for joining us again i know this was an unusual way
01:11:23to do this in this virtual setting but i thought the conversation was wonderful
01:11:27thank you guys