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A major controversy has erupted over alleged financial irregularities within the Ram Janmabhoomi Trust in Ayodhya.
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00:00Who looted in the name of Lord Ram?
00:03How deep is the rot inside the Ram Mandil Trust?
00:06Is this a scam beyond just a cash and land grab?
00:10Will devotees be compensated for being cheated?
00:13Fraud in the name of faith?
00:15Is this an acid test for the Yogi government in Uttar Pradesh?
00:20Just some of the questions I'll raise.
00:22Joining me now, senior journalist Sharath Pradhan,
00:24who's tracked Uttar Pradesh politics for years.
00:26Shantanu Gupta, political analyst and author,
00:29has written a biography on Yogi Arithyanath.
00:31Sriraj Nair, BHP spokesperson, is also joining me.
00:35And I want to turn to you, Sriraj Nair, today,
00:37because as we speak, eight people reportedly named in that fire.
00:41Two of them, at least we know, have been held for sure.
00:44We also know that among the names is the driver of Champat Rai,
00:49the general secretary of the trust.
00:51Clearly, all of this doesn't tell us yet just how deep the scam is.
00:56Do you concede now that there were large-scale theft of donations
01:02and to that extent, this is a major blot on the credibility of the Ram Janma Bhoomi Trust?
01:12Well, Rajiv, from day one, it was on the insistence of the trust, an SIT was formed.
01:19And we have seen the interim report being submitted to the authorities.
01:23And we have been firm on our stand that whoever is found to be guilty,
01:30whoever has done, whoever has been indulged in wrongdoings and misappropriation of funds
01:37or siphoning of funds, they should be punished.
01:41An F.I.R. should be lost against them.
01:43We have never tried to shield anybody.
01:45We never tried to support any person who is supposed to be wrong.
01:50We are absolutely clear.
01:53You showed our international president also saying on air,
01:57we wanted punishment to all those who will be found to be guilty
02:05after the final report of the SIT will be submitted.
02:09We want an example to be said.
02:11But there are those who say, Mr. Nair, you're saying that VHP took the initiative
02:18for an SIT to be formed.
02:20The truth of the matter is, it was Akhilesh Yadav of the Samajwadi Party
02:24who red flagged this first.
02:26It was Akhilesh Yadav who red flagged it and then you woke up to it.
02:29Initially, there were denials.
02:31The truth of the matter is, it is only when the hand has been caught in the till
02:35where you have nowhere to run.
02:36Now you are saying, dood ka dood paani ka paani, the guilty won't be spared.
02:40And will the guilty include, if they are, representatives of your organization,
02:44most of whom are holding senior positions in the trust?
02:52Well, Rajdeep, we have been very clear.
02:55However, a person big, irrespective of the position he holds,
03:01if found guilty, heads will roll.
03:04We are very, very clear about that.
03:06We have never tried to shield anybody.
03:08And we have been very categorical, we have been always saying,
03:12all statutory obligations, all compliances should be met.
03:16The entire system should be transparent.
03:20Every rupee which has been received as daan, dakshina, donation...
03:25But you woke up only after Akhilesh Yadav raised the red flag.
03:29We have been very clear.
03:29You only woke up after Akhilesh Yadav, the opposition Sabhajwadi party leader raised the red flag.
03:39No, see, we do agree that after the interim report, we do agree there have been some kind of wrongdoings.
03:45And we will not shield anybody who is wrong.
03:47Irrespective of who or he may be, irrespective of the position one holds.
03:53We will ensure that a transparent system will be in place.
03:58More transparency will be bought.
03:59Definitely there are some lapses which are seen as far as the reports are concerned.
04:05But all, everything will be, will be cleared.
04:08But this kind of people who are trying to politicize this matter, looking into the 2028 UP elections,
04:16they are going to fall flat.
04:18None of, no Hindus are going to vote them.
04:20They are Ramadrois.
04:21They always ensured, they worked day in and out to ensure that the Ram temple does not come in existence.
04:29The Congress which ensured they roped in the best of the lawyers so that the Ram temple does not come
04:33in existence.
04:34A party which has always been in scams.
04:37They are trying to, you know, portray Ram Janma Bhumi in a wrong manner.
04:44But at the same time, we make it very clear.
04:47After the reports, whoever is going to be guilty, they should be punished.
04:52And F.I.R. has to be, F.I.R. has to be lodged against all who are supposed to
04:57be guilty.
04:58I have heard you, sir.
05:00You will spare no one who is found guilty in that inquiry.
05:03Sharad Pradhan, do you believe, therefore, the VHP is saying, look, an SIT report has given its findings.
05:10Arrests are beginning.
05:11F.I.R. has been filed.
05:12People have been detained.
05:13What more do you want?
05:14Is this issue, as Srirad Nayar suggests, been politicized because it's a big election here in Uttar Pradesh?
05:21Politicized by whom is a big question.
05:23And, you know, before Aklesh Yadav raised the red flag, this was exposed by a YouTuber named Abhishek Upadhyay, who
05:32runs his own channel.
05:33And he interviewed one of the former accountants of the Mandil Trust, who is an RSS man and who hails
05:41from Kota.
05:42And the day he raised the red flag, he was removed from that job.
05:46He used to supervise the county.
05:48And the Mahipal Singh is his name.
05:50And he is the man to be credited with.
05:52And after that, Aklesh Yadav got the cue and he raised the issue.
05:56But the irony is that from day one, even Yogi Aditnaath and others were trying to give it a different
06:04color.
06:05Yogi Aditnaath, instead of saying that we'll, today he's saying, doodh ka doodh paani ka paani ho jaega.
06:09That time he said, opposition is trying to blame Ayodhya.
06:15If a jury, a jury, I would call it decoity.
06:18The manner in which this whole thing was carried out was decoity.
06:22And I refuse to believe that people sitting at the highest levels were unaware of this.
06:28There was enough reason, even it was also very surprising that somebody like Mr. Nipail Mishra,
06:33whom I have known for more than four decades, and he's always rated as a very upright officer.
06:39He used to be Mulaim Singh's principal secretary.
06:42And thereafter, he went to the prime minister and held the highest bureaucratic position in the country.
06:48He tried to wash his hands off on day one when he was asked.
06:51He said, you see, I have nothing to do with this trust.
06:55I was only supervising the construction.
06:58Somebody at that level talking in these terms simply shows that he's trying to wash his hands off.
07:03Only when the matter, when the issue became viral, then he said, okay, no, no.
07:11We will do this and we will do that.
07:13He changed his stance.
07:15Probably it could be because of conflict of interest.
07:18You're saying, therefore, that the system woke up.
07:24Yes.
07:24And one more thing, Rajiv.
07:25Go ahead.
07:25To this, what has happened?
07:29SIT is not a solution for this kind of crime.
07:33Invariably, I have seen in my almost five decades of journalism that whenever SITs are formed or there are one
07:43man retired judges commissions, they are only meant to buy time.
07:48And they don't, even in this, the report that has come, the real culprits have been shielded.
07:54I said on day one that you will find when the society submits its report, only the smaller fries will
08:01be hanged.
08:02The big fish continues to rule the roost.
08:05And the big fish are people against whom commoners in today, the ordinary devotees are all talking about it and
08:15they are pointing their fingers towards the man who is supposed to be protecting this whole thing.
08:23If somebody's driver is being taken to task now at long last, you think the owner of the driver's employer
08:36could be unaware of what is happening, blissfully unaware.
08:38You're referring to Champat Rai.
08:40You're referring to Champat Rai.
08:42You're referring to the general secretary who's a senior VHP leader.
08:45You're saying none of this could have happened without his knowledge, given the fact that he was the whole and
08:50soul in a way of this Ram Janmurvi Trust.
08:53Am I correct?
08:53You're saying that the bigger fish are getting away.
08:58And another thing, the other associates of Champat Rai, Anil Mishra and Gopal Rao, they were neck deep in this
09:06whole thing.
09:07They knew obviously what is happening.
09:09And they are the ones, mind you, who were involved in the land scam, what Sanjay Singh was mentioning just
09:16now, how land was purchased in the morning and later in the evening it was sold at 10 times, 20
09:22times the price to the trust.
09:24That is also a big story.
09:27After all, the money was being paid out of Bhagwan Ram's trust.
09:32Yes, from day one, there was complete, the government was in complete denial mode, refusing to even accept that there's
09:40anything wrong.
09:41Thankfully, because it's all happened.
09:44Let me, Sharad, let, I've heard what you've said.
09:49I want to bring in Shantanu Gupta.
09:51Shantanu Gupta, do you believe this is a huge embarrassment for the Yogi Adityanath government and the Sangh Paribar in
09:56general?
09:57Here is a case where faith of millions is associated.
10:00This is the big ideological project of the last 10 years.
10:04And what do we find?
10:05That there is chandachori.
10:08Or at least the allegations are serious enough for eight people now to be detained, including people close to the
10:13general secretary of the trust.
10:15Isn't this a huge embarrassment?
10:17Sir, this is not a project of last 10 years.
10:21This is a project of last 500 years for Hindukh, you rightly said.
10:23And I will avoid the temptation of sensationalizing the topic.
10:28It's a very sensitive topic.
10:30And I'll only speak of the fact that we know.
10:33If you have some sources which I don't have, none of us has access to the SIT report.
10:38No, we know eight people have been detained, including the driver and close aide of Chambhatra.
10:45We don't have access to the SIT report, I said.
10:58Some Pavan Pandey from SP, some accountant.
11:00There were some whistleblowers.
11:02Based on that, Akhilesh Tiyadu tweeted.
11:03When the trust realized that it should be investigated, they only wrote a letter to chief minister to form SIT.
11:10Within four hours, government of UP, Yogi government formed SIT with very senior members.
11:15One IS officer of 2004 batch, Vijay Vishwaspant.
11:18One IPS officer of 2008 batch, who was also Interpol and CBI, Kiran.
11:23And one more person from the finance department.
11:26These three people worked hard for 60 hours almost.
11:29Continuously interviewed more than 100 people.
11:31And this submitted the report to the home secretary.
11:33Right.
11:34So only the four or five people are private to this SIT.
11:37And based on that, these eight people have fired.
11:39I am sure within some time, they will be arrested the way Yogi Atanath government worked in nine and a
11:44half years.
11:45Right.
11:45This is the only limited facts we know.
11:47Based on that, we can deny.
11:50So you are saying there is no question of an eye wash.
11:52You have got Sharad Pradhan saying SITs and these commissions which work under the government are designed in a way
11:57to ensure only the minions are caught, the big fish get away.
12:01No, no.
12:01That might be Sharadji's view.
12:03But again, I think there is one more detail that we know.
12:06That the SIT, these three people SIT have asked for larger time also because now they want to find the
12:13trails of each of this.
12:14It's not if CCTV is closed, when it is closed, on whose protocol it is closed.
12:17If the close protocol is dropped, under whose order it is dropped.
12:20So they will study in detail and find the trails of all these people.
12:24Right.
12:24It's not easy to find in a jiffy.
12:26You can't find the trails.
12:27They find 15 more days.
12:29Right.
12:29So a larger report and then more names may come.
12:31And as VHP or everyone said, from Chief Minister to VHP, everyone said, the hardest action will be taken.
12:37And that we have seen in Yogi Adityanath government.
12:39The hardest action is taken, was taken, will be taken.
12:42That I think the people of Uttar Pradesh are very sure.
12:44Right.
12:46Let me point out Rajdeep.
12:48You heard Shantanu saying Yogi Adityanath government will not spare anyone.
12:52Are we sensationalizing it even before the action is fully taken?
12:57You know, there is reason too.
12:59It is not sensationalizing at all.
13:01It is coming, the facts.
13:03You know, in every crime, there is some primaveredicized evidence.
13:07In this case, there was more than enough primaveredicized evidence.
13:11The Prevention of Corruption Act clearly says that if somebody accused of a critical crime,
13:17his disproportionate assets are clearly visible, far beyond his legitimate means of income,
13:23that calls for a criminal investigation.
13:27SIT is not an answer.
13:29FIR should have been lodged on day one when this was detected.
13:33And there were enough.
13:34The moment SIT was formed, it was very evident that certain people were to be shielded.
13:42Otherwise, you know, primaveredicized evidence against whether it was Tullu Yada or whether
13:47it was Anil Mishra or whether Champatra himself.
13:50The kind of property they own today is way beyond their legitimate sources of income.
13:57You know, you're making a point because there's the donation theft and there are allegations
14:01of serious monies being made in allegedly illegal land deals.
14:06I just want to get it to you.
14:07Just, Shantanu, for a moment.
14:10Chanda Chori.
14:11These are the responses we are getting on Twitter live.
14:13Will accountability be fixed for those who cheated devotees?
14:17Says Shiva.
14:19SSR 99 said, we heard of Ram Ram Japna, Paraya Mal Apna, but these people have taken it
14:26to the next level.
14:27Ram Nam Japna or Ram Mandir Ka Chanda Apna.
14:30Incredible.
14:30Shiva Prasad writes, Sir, this is the nation of upper caste temple control.
14:34Nothing will happen.
14:35Write it down.
14:36Nagarajan says, accountability.
14:38If the Prime Minister can take credit for building the Bhavya Mandir, he must also accept
14:42responsibility for the misuse of devotees' contributions.
14:46When it comes to accountability, is Sanatan sentiment not hurt now?
14:50Rajni Rao says, expecting accountability in money mismanagement is a pipe dream.
14:54It is cash, no trade.
14:56A few employees will be sacked for wrong accounting.
14:59Some vague CCTV images will be highlighted.
15:02Investigation will continue for 10 years.
15:04The big fish will get away, having swallowed heavily.
15:07Shantanu, you wanted to respond.
15:08A lot of cynicism, skepticism.
15:10People are angry and legitimately so.
15:13I think, yeah, these are the moments of anger.
15:16The people who have donated even 5 rupees to 5 lakh rupees, they will feel cheated for
15:20sure.
15:20But I reiterate the same point.
15:22We have seen in the last nine and a half year of Yogi government, no one was spared
15:26and no one will be spared.
15:27I think I'll connect to the land scam thing and I'll point to how the things are sensationalized.
15:34Sanjay Singh, did the Sanjay Singh and Pawan Pandit together, did a press conference in
15:38Ayodhya about this land scam in 2021, 5 years back.
15:42They never went to the court.
15:44Let's say, let's say SIT's, Yogi's SIT is not functioning.
15:47Yogi's police is not functioning.
15:48They have all the right, all the means, all the lawyers.
15:50They can send Kapil Sibbal, who is a dad sabaya, with their support.
15:53Samajwadi Party can always send.
15:55They never went to the high court.
15:56They have all the incentives.
15:57They have all the political incentive to take the land scam.
16:00The same paper, the same paper which he produced today in front of SIT, Sanjay Singh shown the
16:06same papers five years back.
16:07But he never went to the court.
16:08So, that's why I'm saying how things are sensationalized.
16:11I'm saying, he's thinking, any way where the things are happening, let me coin the land
16:16scam thing again.
16:17So, we have seen.
16:18Nothing stops.
16:19You know, it is not as if the matter has to go to court, Shantanu, with due regard.
16:23The Yogi government, if it wanted, could have investigated the land deals as well.
16:27It's not as if this was hidden from the public domain.
16:30The point is, you're now saying, yesterday I heard a BJP leader saying, in Mohan Yadav's
16:34case, show me the money trail.
16:36Now, you're saying someone has to go to court.
16:37The truth of the matter is, people want answers.
16:41And therefore, I'll come to you, Mr. Nayar, at the end.
16:44You see, the Vishwa Hindu Parishad in particular, will have to answer serious questions.
16:49They cannot get away simply by saying, you know, we will shield no one.
16:52That's not enough.
16:53Look at the skepticism that people have.
16:56You all came to power.
16:58BJP came to power.
16:59And now, in the Ram Mandir itself, people, they khana khaliya.
17:09Well, Rajdeep, this is absolutely whatever is happening.
17:13I categorically said, our international president said, the guilty will be definitely punished,
17:19irrespective of who, whatever position one holds.
17:22But at the same time, like Shantanu said, in the year 2021, this kind of hit and run,
17:29speed and run has happened.
17:30And then, these people disappeared once the election results were out and open.
17:33I hold Mr. Sharath Prabhar in high esteem.
17:36But I'm really worried he is absolutely selective.
17:39This is all election centering.
17:41At the same time, nobody, whatever has happened.
17:47Mr. Sharath Pradhan, Mr. Sharath Pradhan, Mr. Sharath Pradhan, I don't know, you heard
17:55power.
17:55I never said power.
17:56You can go back.
17:57Mr. Sharath Pradhan, we hold you in high esteem.
18:01But Pradhan, Pradhan, we all hold you in high esteem.
18:06But you are absolutely selective.
18:08Nobody is trying to shield.
18:10Nobody is trying to cover up.
18:12Let us all, we are the world's largest democracy and our judicial process is known across the
18:17world.
18:18If the trail leads to Champath Rai, will he have to step down?
18:20Mr. Shrilal Nayar, if the trail leads to Champath Rai, will he have to step down or not?
18:28Okay.
18:29It may be anybody.
18:30Famous last word.
18:31And it's very clear, irrespective of the position one holds.
18:34He will, he have to, the heads will be rolled.
18:39Okay.
18:40Famous last words.
18:41I've got that.
18:42And I appreciate my guests.
18:44Nobody is trying to shield anybody.
18:45I appreciate all of you joining me on my top talking point.
18:48Okay.
18:49You've made that point.
18:50No one is trying to shield anyone, you claim.
18:52Clearly though, this is a huge breach of trust of the millions of devotees who have donated
18:57with all full faith to the Ram Mandir.
19:00Thanks very much to my guests for joining us.
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