- 2 days ago
Bethel Church recently released a public statement confirming that it no longer platforms Todd Bentley, Mike Bickle, Sean Bowles, and Bob Hartley. On the surface, that may sound like a simple correction. But when viewed through the lens of church history, prophetic celebrity culture, and the New Apostolic Reformation, the statement raises much deeper questions about platforming, accountability, spiritual authority, and the systems that make charismatic leaders nearly untouchable.
In this episode, John Collins and Jed Hartley discuss why Bethel's decision may be a step in the right direction while still leaving the larger problem unresolved. The conversation explores the difference between ordinary visiting ministers and apostolic "platforms," the danger of treating prophets and apostles as divinely endorsed celebrities, the emotional cost to those who warned the public, and why vague apologies often protect institutions more than people. This is not just about four names. It is about the system that elevated them.
00:00 Intro
01:18 Bethel’s statement and the right first step
02:53 Jed reacts to Bethel naming Bob Hartley
07:28 John’s historian perspective
08:36 The bigger issue: platforming people
10:10 Bethel as church, platform, and entertainment industry
14:23 The emotional cost of sounding the alarm
20:24 Why vague statements are not enough
22:57 Platforming vs normal guest ministry
25:45 Four scapegoats or a failed system?
28:50 Website and book promo
29:52 Qualified apology and legal-sounding language
32:29 Jed describes Bethel’s “confidential process”
39:35 Smoke, fire, and whether anything has changed
40:18 Prophecy, coincidence, and platformed authority
44:33 Why truth matters in prophecy and miracles
50:47 Impact, brand, money, and accountability
52:45 Closing
______________________
Roy's Report:
https://roysreport.com/bethel-church-promises-reforms-deplatforms-four-men-accused-of-misconduct/
Bethel:
https://www.bethel.com/leadership-updates/topics/organizational-health
______________________
Weaponized Religion: From Christian Identity to the NAR:
Paperback: https://www.amazon.com/dp/1735160962
Kindle: https://www.amazon.com/dp/B0DCGGZX3K
______________________
– Support the channel: https://www.patreon.com/branham
– Subscribe to the channel: https://www.youtube.com/channel/UCBSpezVG15TVG-lOYMRXuyQ
– Visit the website: https://william-branham.org
– Follow on Facebook: https://www.facebook.com/WilliamBranhamOrg
– Follow on TikTok: https://www.tiktok.com/@william.m.branham
– Follow on Twitter: https://twitter.com/wmbhr
– Buy the books: https://william-branham.org/site/books
In this episode, John Collins and Jed Hartley discuss why Bethel's decision may be a step in the right direction while still leaving the larger problem unresolved. The conversation explores the difference between ordinary visiting ministers and apostolic "platforms," the danger of treating prophets and apostles as divinely endorsed celebrities, the emotional cost to those who warned the public, and why vague apologies often protect institutions more than people. This is not just about four names. It is about the system that elevated them.
00:00 Intro
01:18 Bethel’s statement and the right first step
02:53 Jed reacts to Bethel naming Bob Hartley
07:28 John’s historian perspective
08:36 The bigger issue: platforming people
10:10 Bethel as church, platform, and entertainment industry
14:23 The emotional cost of sounding the alarm
20:24 Why vague statements are not enough
22:57 Platforming vs normal guest ministry
25:45 Four scapegoats or a failed system?
28:50 Website and book promo
29:52 Qualified apology and legal-sounding language
32:29 Jed describes Bethel’s “confidential process”
39:35 Smoke, fire, and whether anything has changed
40:18 Prophecy, coincidence, and platformed authority
44:33 Why truth matters in prophecy and miracles
50:47 Impact, brand, money, and accountability
52:45 Closing
______________________
Roy's Report:
https://roysreport.com/bethel-church-promises-reforms-deplatforms-four-men-accused-of-misconduct/
Bethel:
https://www.bethel.com/leadership-updates/topics/organizational-health
______________________
Weaponized Religion: From Christian Identity to the NAR:
Paperback: https://www.amazon.com/dp/1735160962
Kindle: https://www.amazon.com/dp/B0DCGGZX3K
______________________
– Support the channel: https://www.patreon.com/branham
– Subscribe to the channel: https://www.youtube.com/channel/UCBSpezVG15TVG-lOYMRXuyQ
– Visit the website: https://william-branham.org
– Follow on Facebook: https://www.facebook.com/WilliamBranhamOrg
– Follow on TikTok: https://www.tiktok.com/@william.m.branham
– Follow on Twitter: https://twitter.com/wmbhr
– Buy the books: https://william-branham.org/site/books
Category
📚
LearningTranscript
00:31Hello, and welcome to another episode of the William Branham Historical Research Podcast.
00:35I'm your host, John Collins, the author and founder of William Branham Historical Research,
00:40and with me I have my co-host and friend, Jed Hartley, son of a false prophet that's been banned
00:45from Bethel,
00:46and a former member of the International House of Prayer.
00:50Jed, this is going to be a little bit odd for the audience, because this one is out of sequence.
00:55You and I record quite a bit ahead, and we're going to inject this one, so we may say some
01:00things that we have already said in the future.
01:03And I'm a big fan of the Back to the Future movies, so this makes me feel all-powerful, and
01:08I do have a flux capacitor over here on my desk.
01:12So, but anyway, we're talking about, you know, the big news.
01:18Bethel is finally changing some of their patterns, and it goes back to something that I've been saying as a
01:24theme for quite a long time.
01:26There are really some good people that are caught up in the system who recognize that everything that they're doing
01:33is wrong,
01:35or most of the thing, many of the things they're doing is wrong, but the system is so out of
01:39control, how do you stop it?
01:41And so, I'm going to give people in Bethel the benefit of the doubt.
01:45This was the right choice.
01:47They made the right choice, and I want to talk through the right choice with you.
01:50Yeah, yeah, I mean, they posted a, it was so eerie for me because I get a phone call from
01:57my cousin, and he says,
02:00hey, have you seen what Bethel posted?
02:03He said that he was seen from news organizations that Bethel has officially cut ties with your dad,
02:12which I had not heard and not seen, and I had not heard from Bethel.
02:16Like, they did not let me know that they were going to be doing this.
02:21I didn't hear it from my dad.
02:24I don't really, I don't keep in great contact with my dad, but he will send me text messages quite
02:30often about things that are going on,
02:33sometimes rather charged emotional text messages.
02:38So, I'm surprised that I didn't see this coming from him.
02:44So, chances are he had not been told that this was going to happen, but Bethel releases on May 28th,
02:55they release a statement called Bethel's position on ministry platform,
03:01and it's just sort of them acknowledging that they carry weight and responsibility and they want to uphold biblical principles,
03:12and basically they're starting to recognize that they are responsible for the men and women,
03:21but mainly men, that they platform on their ministry and they give this large platform.
03:30They have a statement about, we will not make decisions about platforming based solely on rumors, pressure, or unverified claims.
03:40So, I think in this, they were kind of talking about like, okay, well, so for the ministers that we
03:47do platform,
03:48if they are involved in scandal, we're not going to make any decisions about removing them from our platform
03:54based just solely on rumors, pressure, or unverified claims.
03:59But then, at the same time, credible concerns may lead to further review,
04:03discernment through appropriate reporting and accountability process.
04:07Then later, following internal review and discussion,
04:11we've made the decision to confirm publicly that we no longer platform the following individuals,
04:17Todd Bentley, Mike Bickle, Sean Bowles, and Bob Hartley.
04:23And then there's a, the final paragraph is specifically regarding Bob Hartley.
04:28So, specifically regarding Bob Hartley,
04:31Bethel took action after concerns were raised in previous years.
04:34We restricted his ministry involvement,
04:37informed our church community,
04:39and later limited his access to Bethel campus.
04:42As part of our current review,
04:44we want to clearly state that Bob Hartley is not endorsed,
04:47platformed, or permitted to serve in ministry influence at Bethel.
04:52I, I, I do not know why they particularly emphasize my dad on that.
05:00It could be because of some of my continued conversation around it.
05:05It could be because, um,
05:07he was the only one in which there was several sort of years where,
05:15I mean,
05:15back in 2015,
05:16they had heard,
05:18um,
05:19that he was doing things that were inappropriate.
05:23It's still a little bit hazy to me when the Bethel was informed of what behaviors,
05:30but,
05:31um,
05:32certainly about prophetic abuse.
05:34And then later I will use the word sexual indiscretion,
05:39but I think that,
05:40um,
05:41sexual harassment to sexual abuse is probably more appropriate.
05:46Um,
05:46but,
05:47um,
05:49those,
05:49the things that they heard about that,
05:51I think were later,
05:53either later,
05:54or they heard some things in 2015,
05:57some things in 2017,
05:59some things later in 2023,
06:01when I,
06:02um,
06:03finally,
06:04um,
06:05was aware of many of these things and named and called them and,
06:09and put some external pressure on them.
06:12And then,
06:12uh,
06:13in,
06:13in 2024,
06:15or maybe even 2025,
06:17I think,
06:18uh,
06:18when Mike Winger posted,
06:21uh,
06:22a large interview with me and Michelle Seidler,
06:25and that is when,
06:26um,
06:27Bethel officially had a much more attention on them.
06:33And that's when they did it.
06:34So perhaps there is this paragraph just about Bob Hartley because of the
06:39sequence of events.
06:40And because there were several instances in which they should have publicly
06:45distanced themselves from him and should have,
06:49um,
06:50negated sort of his platform.
06:51Um,
06:52and they didn't,
06:53I don't know if that's what they're clarifying or not.
06:55Again,
06:56I have no idea because they never spoke to me about this.
07:00Um,
07:01so just,
07:03just,
07:03uh,
07:04I'm kind of re-reacting with you,
07:07John,
07:07and with everyone,
07:08because I,
07:09this is,
07:10this is fresh for me.
07:11Um,
07:12I'll ask you,
07:13John,
07:14when you see that and you see those four names and then Bob Hartley,
07:19there's that special paragraph on the end for Bob Hartley,
07:22do you have any thoughts on why they might be doing that?
07:25I have so many thoughts,
07:27man.
07:28So I look at this from a person who's on the outside looking in,
07:31I was never part of this thing.
07:33I was part of what made this.
07:35And there are a few things that come to mind.
07:38Um,
07:39number one,
07:39the Bob Hartley thing,
07:40it,
07:41it's hard to say why exactly they chose that.
07:44I would say that you and I could have had an impact as has everyone else who
07:49is doing this.
07:50Every single person who's doing what we're doing and just crying out,
07:53Hey man,
07:54there's danger in this water.
07:56Don't swim.
07:57Eventually the lifeguards are going to step in and say,
07:59Hey,
07:59okay,
08:00we got to stop swimming in this place.
08:01I mean,
08:02yeah,
08:02I hate to say it,
08:03but that's,
08:04that's the way it is.
08:05I look at it.
08:06So when I read this,
08:07I read it different than most people.
08:10Whenever I first read it and just saw the headlines and the glances,
08:13this is through it.
08:14My,
08:15my first inclination is like everybody else.
08:17Okay.
08:18They did the right thing.
08:19This is really good.
08:20Then I look at it from the perspective of historian.
08:24And if you read it like this,
08:26it reads quite a bit differently.
08:28And I want to talk about that,
08:29not to negate anything that they did.
08:32That is good because I,
08:33this is a step in the right direction.
08:34I'll say it like that.
08:35Yeah.
08:36But the problem that exists,
08:38if you read this,
08:40even in their own verbiage,
08:41the problem that exists,
08:42they're platforming people.
08:43I mean,
08:44what church does this?
08:45You go to a church,
08:46you want to hear the minister,
08:47you want to hear the gospel.
08:48You're not coming to be excited about a human.
08:51You're coming to be excited about God.
08:53And this whole article is literally declaring that this is an entertainment church.
08:59This is not a church that's dedicated.
09:01We're not platforming Jesus.
09:03We're platforming these individuals.
09:04And oh my gosh,
09:06look what these individuals have done.
09:08I mean,
09:08that's what it reads from the historian standpoint,
09:11whether it's your dad,
09:12whether it's any of these other names they mentioned.
09:14The real problem is,
09:16and I think eventually if they continue in the same direction,
09:20when they realize that,
09:21okay,
09:21something's wrong here,
09:22let's change course,
09:24eventually they're going to either,
09:26they're going to come to a decision point.
09:28And that decision point is either,
09:31this church will no longer focus on humans.
09:34We're going to focus on God.
09:35And if you come to our church,
09:37we want you to get connected to God.
09:39We do not want you to see an individual as this superhuman or super apostle.
09:45They're going to either make the decision to basically to be a Christian church or to be an entertainment church.
09:51And I think that's what has to happen when you go down this direction.
09:55You're making a move in the right point,
09:56right direction.
09:58But until you make that decision that,
10:01okay,
10:01we decided we're going to be,
10:03now we're going to be a Christian church.
10:04Until you make that decision,
10:06you've not really made,
10:08you've not really addressed the root of the problem.
10:10Yeah.
10:11Yeah.
10:11I think that that's an excellent point.
10:13And I think that them calling it an entertainment church,
10:16I mean,
10:16two things that this statement kind of verifies.
10:22One,
10:24exactly what you're saying.
10:25And it really is a explicit.
10:30I don't know.
10:31I don't want to say confession because I don't think that you view it as a confession,
10:35but it's an explicit acknowledgement of exactly what you're saying of like,
10:41they are a platforming church that they are entertainment,
10:48that this is,
10:49this is something more than what a church is.
10:52This is,
10:52this is a entertainment sort of industry.
10:54And music and ministry and everything that goes along with it.
11:01I mean,
11:01I,
11:01and I think that they are now,
11:05whatever,
11:0620 years.
11:07I mean,
11:08it's been old church for a long time,
11:10but they've really been in the limelight for,
11:11for 20,
11:1230 years.
11:14they are now,
11:16I think this is the first time they're really reckoning with the fact that as an entertainment industry,
11:24like it's,
11:25they are now platforming people that they haven't walked with for years and no.
11:31And I mean,
11:31that's the thing with the churches that typically in churches,
11:34you are able to platform.
11:36And by platform,
11:37I mean,
11:38have ministers or have pastors who you have known for years and years and years,
11:43who know your community,
11:45who are a part of the community.
11:47But this,
11:48when it is this sort of media mogul,
11:51when it is this entertainment industry,
11:53you,
11:54you don't know who,
11:57is really coming to share and you don't know much about them.
12:00And if they are entertaining and compelling,
12:06the message,
12:08I shouldn't even say the message,
12:10the,
12:11the clicks,
12:12the entertainment outweighs the cost of doing your due diligence of recognizing whether or not this person is legitimate.
12:21Like I,
12:21if you had pressed my father back in 2010,
12:25it would have been pretty easy to understand that he was doing false prophetic,
12:32that he was getting,
12:33getting information from not divine means that wouldn't have taken a very thorough investigation.
12:42But because especially back then,
12:45my father was kind of peaking with his,
12:48his whole persona and the,
12:51he was a very entertaining product back in 2010.
12:552010 for some people.
12:57Um,
12:57he turned a lot of people off because he,
12:59but there was a lot of people who really found his,
13:02um,
13:04performance,
13:04um,
13:05enticing.
13:05And I,
13:06I,
13:06I don't mean to say that disparaging the people who did,
13:09because I was one of them.
13:11Like I,
13:11I very much bought it hook,
13:14line and sinker when I was in my teens.
13:16And then started when I was in my twenties,
13:18started seeing,
13:19you know,
13:20the behind the curtain,
13:21but,
13:21um,
13:23it was,
13:24it was a lot.
13:25There was money to be made and there were seats to filled by,
13:29um,
13:30platforming people like Todd Bentley,
13:33my father,
13:34um,
13:35Sean Bowles,
13:36Mike Bickle,
13:37of course.
13:38and that money to be made that power and that influence souls to win.
13:45If they,
13:46if,
13:46you know,
13:47they probably put it in that context that superseded the due diligence of
13:53taking the time to see whether or not these people are legitimate.
13:57And so this,
13:59this statement,
14:01I think recognizes it's them first sort of starting to contend,
14:05which I agree,
14:06John,
14:06I'm like,
14:06this is a good step in the right direction,
14:08whether they just did this because they were pressured externally or not,
14:12who can say,
14:13but,
14:13um,
14:14I mean,
14:15they're regardless of their motivation,
14:16they're certainly making the right step.
14:19Um,
14:20but then the other thing and the very sobering thing,
14:22and the reason why this is like emotionally struck me when I saw this is
14:29it's recognizing everything that you and I have been saying is,
14:35is true on this platform.
14:38Maybe not everything we are saying is confirmed,
14:41but like,
14:41uh,
14:42I have been in a four,
14:46five,
14:46no,
14:47well,
14:47I guess three,
14:47four year long battle with the public with,
14:53um,
14:54or,
14:54or not all of the public,
14:56but with many people,
14:57I have been trying to sound the alarm about Mike Bickle originally and my,
15:02my dad,
15:03Bob Harley.
15:04Um,
15:04and I have been met with so much disdain and disregard and contempt,
15:16um,
15:16from many people who are in leadership in the community that I was raised in.
15:22Uh,
15:23now it has progressed and it has gotten better.
15:26Like the,
15:27the acceptance of,
15:29of your and I's videos,
15:31John,
15:31I would like that everybody in your audience is,
15:34it's so supportive and so helpful.
15:36And,
15:36and,
15:36um,
15:37I,
15:37I think that there has been,
15:39uh,
15:40much more acceptance,
15:42um,
15:42even within the community,
15:44uh,
15:45as the years have passed.
15:47But when I first started speaking out against Mike Bickle,
15:51um,
15:52this was before I was on your platform,
15:55John.
15:55And,
15:56and when I was just someone who knew about Mike Bickle's,
16:00um,
16:01behaviors because of my relationship with my mom and my relationship to my dad and,
16:06and seeing sort of behind the curtain,
16:08um,
16:10you know,
16:10I was sounding the alarm.
16:11I remember I was the first one to talk to Chris Vallotton.
16:14At least this is how he,
16:16he framed it.
16:18I was the first person to talk to Chris Vallotton,
16:20a lead pastor at Bethel about Mike Bickle.
16:24And he was like,
16:25ah,
16:25yeah,
16:25I've heard the rumors.
16:26I don't know if they're true.
16:27And I,
16:27on the phone was like,
16:29I can assure you they're true.
16:32And he kind of on the phone,
16:35he actually wasn't super resistant to that on the phone.
16:38He was like,
16:39oh,
16:39I didn't,
16:40I didn't realize that because I was like,
16:41it literally involved my,
16:43my own mother.
16:43And I remember talking to,
16:45um,
16:45one of the pastors at IOP during,
16:48um,
16:50some of this time too,
16:51where I spoke with him on the phone.
16:53And again,
16:54it was this sort of,
16:54I don't know that we'll see whether or not this is true.
16:58Uh,
16:59and then on X and on,
17:04um,
17:04Facebook and in my emails,
17:06I was getting hate mail about,
17:09um,
17:10how I was,
17:12uh,
17:12accuser of the brethren,
17:14just like anybody who,
17:15who sounds a little alarm,
17:16just like my mom was just like,
17:18um,
17:20Deborah.
17:20Oh,
17:21right.
17:21Deborah.
17:22Yes,
17:22of course.
17:23Um,
17:23like Deborah and all of the people who have spoken up.
17:26So,
17:26so my mom and Deborah being,
17:28um,
17:29and,
17:29um,
17:30Tammy Woods,
17:30that being the primary people who spoke out against Mike Bickle originally,
17:35um,
17:35Alan hood,
17:36others,
17:36these people who sounded the alarm have largely been excommunicated from the new apostolic reformation community had to,
17:46in order to speak out,
17:49have,
17:50uh,
17:50there was,
17:51there was all of these booklets and,
17:53and online emails.
17:55I mean,
17:56there's still some of this going on and just propaganda about Mike Bickle being attacked by demonic forces and,
18:05um,
18:05us who were speaking out against him,
18:08um,
18:08being agents of the demonic and all that sort of stuff.
18:12And,
18:12and certainly many found it,
18:16extremely abhorrent that I would speak about my own father,
18:19um,
18:19in these ways.
18:20And it is,
18:23it is emotional.
18:25Like it,
18:26it,
18:26it causes me a weird sort of pain to see Bethel then three years after the fact in a statement,
18:37calmly wash their hands and be like,
18:39hey,
18:39we're not going to do this unless we have good evidence.
18:43That being said,
18:45following internal review and discussion,
18:47these four are no longer platform.
18:50You know,
18:51there isn't,
18:51they don't get into the nitty gritty that I've had to get into of what and why and why these
18:56people are dangerous,
18:57but they recognize it.
18:58And so like the battle from the Bethel perspective is one,
19:03but for me,
19:04it is really heartbreaking because I mean,
19:09it,
19:09it's just been so exhausting and so much.
19:13I,
19:13I so appreciate,
19:14you know,
19:15being able to get on here and talk with you and share about some of the things that have gone
19:19on in my childhood,
19:20but I have not appreciated or relished in the battle that I have had to fight to sound the alarm
19:30about my father and my spiritual father and many of the people who I grew up with and loved quite
19:36dearly.
19:37Um,
19:38and to see it now sort of publicly recognized and affirmed that,
19:44yep,
19:44those,
19:45those things were going on.
19:46And by a church that has,
19:48that would absolutely not do this unless they absolutely had to,
19:53you know,
19:53this is not,
19:55this is not them just doing it from PR sake.
19:58Like if they thought that these men were innocent,
20:02there is zero chance that this would be happening.
20:07Um,
20:07so,
20:08you know,
20:09yet there will still be people who talk about the accusers of the brethren and we'll talk about how we
20:18should do it in different ways.
20:19I mean,
20:19even the later episodes that we're going to talk about,
20:22um,
20:23that we've already recorded,
20:24but that are going to be in the next few weeks.
20:26Um,
20:27we talk about Jen Johnson and her response to all of this.
20:31Now this was before the public statement was made online,
20:34but Jen Johnson recorded and,
20:37uh,
20:38a sort of conversation that was so just frankly inappropriate and we'll get into it in depth in the next
20:45episodes.
20:45But I mean,
20:47even Jen Johnson was recently just talking about how don't listen to people on social media and relegating people like
20:56you.
20:56You and me,
20:57John,
20:57um,
20:58to these social media voices who don't know what's going on as if it wasn't my father and my spiritual
21:05father,
21:05you know,
21:05as if I wasn't deeply connected to the things that I was saying online.
21:11Um,
21:12and I'm speaking of a course about me personally.
21:15Um,
21:15this is obviously involving many people who are,
21:18um,
21:19sounding the alarm who are beyond me.
21:22It's not like I'm the only person by any means who has been,
21:25um,
21:25raising the,
21:26the,
21:27the sort of flag about these men's behaviors,
21:29but,
21:30um,
21:30many of whom are doing so because they are directly involved,
21:34similar to me,
21:35and to saw these things with their own two eyes and are going to social media and,
21:43um,
21:44podcasts.
21:45And because that is the only opportunity that is literally the only way for them to be able to get
21:50their voice out and to speak about things like this.
21:53Because even when Bethel is recognizing it,
21:57they do so in this super Pontius Pilate,
22:00wash my hands of these things and walk away without talking at all about what is going on in,
22:07in,
22:09um,
22:10the actual situation.
22:11You know,
22:11what are these men actually accused of?
22:14The,
22:14that is,
22:15that is the actual work that has to be done to expose what is going on with something like this.
22:23You know,
22:24people could look at it and see it vague enough as like,
22:27oh,
22:27well,
22:27Bethel just,
22:28they have theological differences.
22:30They have,
22:31um,
22:32issues about they,
22:33you know,
22:34pre-trib,
22:35post-trib rapture.
22:36Like,
22:36you could interpret this in ways to be like,
22:39oh,
22:40maybe they're Democrats.
22:41Maybe,
22:41you know,
22:41who knows?
22:42What is the,
22:43why is Bethel distancing themselves from these four people?
22:47Could be anything.
22:48Um,
22:49and it doesn't really hold any of the weight.
22:53of,
22:54um,
22:55what is actually going on.
22:56Another thing I find really interesting.
22:58So I've,
22:59I've been to churches where there were preaching circuits.
23:03And what I mean by that is you'd have a traveling evangelist who would just visit a church from time
23:08to time.
23:09And they were,
23:09they were all in a circuit.
23:11There would be like,
23:11I don't know,
23:12five,
23:13six,
23:1310 churches that they would travel to in their circuit.
23:17Whenever Bethel uses the word platforming and then takes the tone that they have,
23:22like I'm,
23:22I'm reading through this as we're talking just to refresh my memory,
23:25but it's talking about how some of the problems that they have are because of the platforming.
23:32It is an admission that is,
23:34it is a different type of thing than just normal evangelism.
23:37Whenever you read this and you understand how Pentecostal traveling minister evangelist circuits work,
23:43the people aren't,
23:46even though they're,
23:48you could call them quote unquote platformed.
23:50They're not really platformed in the same way.
23:53The people don't become super apostles in that type of environment.
23:57I have been in churches where we had a traveling minister and had later,
24:02we learned there were huge flaws with this minister.
24:03I won't go into the details.
24:05And nobody cared because this wasn't the pastor of our church.
24:09Nobody cared.
24:10Yes.
24:10He visited.
24:11Yes.
24:11He preached.
24:12Yes.
24:12We enjoyed some of the things he said.
24:14Yes.
24:15We disagreed with some of the things he said,
24:17but our church was our church and our pastor was our pastor.
24:21We didn't have this situation where we were being told that the shepherd of our flock,
24:27our pastor had co-shepherds that were platformed to co-shepherd our flock at various times.
24:34I don't,
24:35I don't know how to say that in,
24:36in a way that makes sense because it doesn't make sense.
24:38That's the funny part.
24:39Yeah.
24:40But what they're admitting to is the fact that the system of platforming,
24:46not just what they're talking about that they did,
24:49they're actually addressing the system of platforming.
24:52This has a huge problem.
24:53This has consequences.
24:55And that's really,
24:56for me,
24:57that's even the bigger admission than the names that they've mentioned.
25:00We have,
25:01we have a system where when we platform somebody,
25:04they become so elevated in respect that even our own church members will put themselves into situations where they might
25:14be under some type of abuse.
25:16And we have this broad audience who connects to us through this new apostolic network that they connect to those
25:26people are also at risk.
25:27So what we have is a situation where we have a bunch of sheep without a true shepherd.
25:34That is really,
25:35if you read through this and you understand what they're saying with the word platforming,
25:39that's really what they're talking about.
25:40They're talking about this system has failed us,
25:43but nowhere does it really describe that the system has failed.
25:47What they're doing,
25:49and I would say that this might be a negative if I read the argument,
25:53what they're doing is they have four scapegoats.
25:56So we have the system,
25:57the system is creating victims,
26:00we see the victims,
26:01and here are four scapegoats.
26:04However,
26:04all of that said,
26:05to a person who came out of that system,
26:08which I did,
26:09I understand the reasons why it's difficult to break free.
26:13from the system.
26:14And I'll still say this is a step in the right direction.
26:17They're moving in the right direction.
26:18But again,
26:19you have to come to the point where you,
26:22you don't look at it like you just said,
26:25where anybody who cries foul is an accuser of the brethren,
26:29because what you're trying to say is we're shepherds of a flock.
26:34We failed the flock.
26:35Some of those flock have left like you.
26:38And whenever the flock has left and they say,
26:41Hey,
26:41there's something wrong here.
26:42That's why I left.
26:44That's an accuser of the brethren.
26:45I don't think so.
26:46That's,
26:46that's somebody who's saying,
26:48look,
26:48man,
26:48this system has failed me.
26:50Can you examine the system?
26:52The fact that they aren't then reaching out to me or to my family,
26:58or I don't know with Sean Bowles,
27:00Mike Bickle,
27:01Todd Bentley,
27:02if the other people,
27:03but for Deborah,
27:05for Tammy,
27:06for my mom and for,
27:09for Mike Bickle's sake,
27:11like the people who have been impacted by these individuals and their platforms,
27:22you know,
27:23is Bethel reaching out apologetically to some of the women who were in the Bethel flock and who were abused?
27:33Are they reaching out to people who were given prophecies by my dad or Sean Bowles to apologize to them
27:45and take ownership for their sort of role in platforming these brothers?
27:54I think the answer is no.
27:58And I'm,
27:59I'm back and forth because I'm so with you on that.
28:03This is progress.
28:04This is moving forward.
28:05But when you talk about they got four scapegoats,
28:12yeah,
28:13it's hard not to feel like they are just trying to do damage control.
28:18And this is about the platform and it's about public image and it's kind of going back to the platform.
28:26That's the sort of central thing is,
28:29is whether or not Bethel's platform is secure.
28:33So that they can influence as much people as possible and they can make as much money as possible.
28:38I'm sure that they talk about it as the former,
28:41but the latter certainly helps.
28:42You know,
28:44it just is hard not to see this as something that is done in order to salvage the platform.
28:51Have you ever wondered how the Pentecostal movement started or how the progression of modern Pentecostalism transitioned through the latter
28:59reign,
29:00charismatic and other fringe movements into the new apostolic reformation?
29:04You can learn this and more on William Branham Historical Research's website,
29:10william-branham.org.
29:12On the books page of the website,
29:14you can find the compiled research of John Collins,
29:17Charles Paisley,
29:19Stephen Montgomery,
29:20John McKinnon,
29:21and others,
29:22with links to the paper,
29:23audio,
29:24and digital versions of each book.
29:26You can also find resources and documentation on various people and topics related to those movements.
29:32If you want to contribute to the cause,
29:35you can support the podcast by clicking the contribute button at the top.
29:39And as always,
29:40be sure to like and subscribe to the audio or video version that you're listening to or watching.
29:46On behalf of William Branham Historical Research,
29:48we want to thank you for your support.
29:51I don't know if you caught it or not.
29:53One commenter actually did,
29:55if you read the article that you sent me from Roy's report,
29:58but there's one statement in there.
30:00Actually,
30:01there's a few statements that use the same kind of language,
30:04but it says,
30:05the engagement of outside professionals earlier may have been helpful,
30:08and we could provide more open communications and offered clearer,
30:13timelier responses.
30:14The letter states,
30:15at times,
30:15our emphasis in internal discussions and confidential processes,
30:20here's the phrase,
30:22may have appeared to limit accountability.
30:25Whenever you are issuing a public apology,
30:29and you realize that there's something wrong,
30:32and you realize that there have been people who are victims,
30:35you don't usually say,
30:37may have appeared to limit accountability.
30:40So it tells me that there's probably a little bit more going on.
30:45Likely,
30:45there are some legal issues that we're not even aware of yet that's happening
30:49with all of this,
30:50because that's not the kind of language you use unless an attorney gets
30:54involved with this and says,
30:55okay,
30:56look,
30:56there's some real risk here.
30:58This is about to go nuclear.
31:00You must be very cautious with your words.
31:03That's the kind of verbiage that's in here.
31:05So for me,
31:07you have to look at it more on the historian side than the apology side,
31:11because it's an apology,
31:13yes,
31:14but it's a qualified apology.
31:15It'd be like if I walk up to you,
31:16Jed,
31:17and I slapped you in the face,
31:18and I say,
31:19I'm sorry,
31:19but it may have appeared to have hurt the side of your face.
31:23You're going to say,
31:24what kind of apology was that?
31:26I may have appeared to slap you,
31:27Jed.
31:28Well,
31:29that's kind of what this is.
31:30It's a little bit of a slap in the face,
31:31which is why one of the people commented like that.
31:35But for me,
31:36I don't see that.
31:37Again,
31:38this is a step in the right direction.
31:39I don't see that as a problem because I understand the legal consequences that come with it.
31:44I just wonder to what extent that legal issue has grown,
31:49because behind the scenes,
31:51this could have grown to levels that we're only seeing just the beginning of what will be a nuclear bomb
31:57going off.
31:58Yeah,
31:59well,
31:59and that whole term confidential too in there where they talk about,
32:04hey,
32:04we have this sort of confidential process that we are going on behind the scenes.
32:09It makes it feel like there is this in-depth investigation that's going on that like,
32:14hey,
32:15we're doing the due diligence behind the scenes.
32:18And no,
32:19it wasn't because I was there and it didn't happen like that.
32:25And you can't be,
32:28certainly I can't say this definitively for anybody besides my father's situation.
32:34But I mean,
32:36I called them.
32:37They did not call me.
32:39I sent emails to Bill Johnson and I got one email and then I got no follow up.
32:45I had one long conversation with Chris Vallotton and Jason,
32:50one longer conversation with Jason Vallotton,
32:53which again was heading in the right direction.
32:56I don't want to criticize them so much and not recognize the things that they have done right in the
33:07right step,
33:07which like I do at least appreciate that Chris Vallotton and Jason Vallotton spoke to me and wanted to hear
33:15about what I was saying.
33:17Had I not gone viral on Twitter,
33:20would they have done that?
33:21I don't know.
33:22I think I would like to think so,
33:25but going on viral on Twitter certainly helped and put pressure on them.
33:31But,
33:31you know,
33:32that was back in 2023,
33:34I think.
33:35And this is,
33:36we're now in 2026.
33:38I mean,
33:39there's two and a half,
33:41three years that have passed before this sort of,
33:47this was,
33:48they've made different,
33:49they've made different,
33:50like they sent out a letter to Bethel staff so that like they've done things,
33:55but now they are publicly platform,
33:58you know,
33:59distancing themselves from my dad in a way that they are recognizing,
34:03you know,
34:03it's a different level of,
34:05of admission.
34:05And again,
34:06this is obviously not just about my dad,
34:09but about other individuals.
34:10So maybe they,
34:11you know,
34:12just added him to the list because they had several other individuals.
34:16That they were needing to publicly de-platform.
34:19So they were like,
34:19well,
34:19might as well get them all out and in one swoop.
34:24But the point is,
34:25is that they talk about this sort of,
34:27I saw their,
34:28I saw their black box.
34:30I saw their confidential process.
34:32It wasn't anything.
34:33It really literally was nothing.
34:35It was them.
34:36I'm sure that they've had conversations afterwards,
34:40but like they did not verify with me afterwards.
34:44Like,
34:44Oh,
34:44okay.
34:45So Chris spoke to you about these particular things.
34:48Hey,
34:48can you give me some more details?
34:50Tell me when you were talking about your father abusing alcohol before our conferences,
34:55like which conferences were those?
34:57Tell me more about,
34:59okay.
34:59When you were talking about how you printed out information that you didn't realize that he was using prophetically,
35:05like which conference was that?
35:07What,
35:07how did that happen?
35:08How could we change this system?
35:11How did we help enable your father?
35:14I mean,
35:14these are questions that if someone wanted to fix the situation,
35:20these are questions that you have to ask,
35:21right?
35:23And those questions were not asked.
35:25That investigation was not had with me.
35:27None of my family have been contacted by them.
35:30So when they are talking about,
35:34Hey,
35:34we have this confidential process.
35:36You got to trust the process.
35:37We're doing it behind the scenes.
35:38You know,
35:39even with this sort of recognition,
35:41maybe,
35:41Hey,
35:41maybe we should have said this before and we're recognizing,
35:43you know,
35:44the impact of our platform.
35:46I mean,
35:48nothing's changed with that.
35:50No,
35:50no new investigation turned up anything.
35:53They weren't,
35:54you know,
35:54I wasn't getting contacted by independent investigators who were trying to get to the bottom of what was going on.
36:01I had a two hour conversation with Chris Fallison and that was sufficient to tell him.
36:07I'm not saying that that wasn't sufficient investigation because it certainly wasn't.
36:11It was because I,
36:12you know,
36:12I gave plenty of details.
36:15But I,
36:17it,
36:17it makes it seem like there is this big in-depth process and there is this movement behind the scenes
36:24where the staff on Bethel is more interested in rooting out and finding deceivers and abusers and predators.
36:37And they are actively guarding,
36:41you know,
36:41shepherding,
36:42they are guarding the sheep.
36:43And that's just not how it is.
36:45Legitimately,
36:46this is not me being overly critical.
36:50Like I,
36:51from my perspective,
36:53I guess I will caveat it,
36:55but from perspective where I directly was involved with how they handled one of these four men,
37:02I can just affirm that that,
37:04that did not,
37:06that was not,
37:06there was no thorough process that involved the sort of investigation to my dad.
37:12There was no thought out process of how to prevent people like my dad to still be platformed by Bethel,
37:24at least not in any way that I was privy to.
37:29And I saw,
37:30which if you're wanting to do it,
37:32well,
37:32I should be privy to that.
37:34And I understand that I've gotten on here and I have criticized them publicly.
37:37So maybe they're avoiding me and avoiding my family because they're like,
37:41oh,
37:41this is just going to get more attention to it.
37:44But I think that I have shown that I am pretty willing to have conversations because I want to see
37:49things change.
37:50I don't want to see John and I's numbers explode and get,
37:57you know,
37:58I much,
37:58I like,
37:59I am much more engaged in like doing these podcasts with you than like,
38:08so the Mike Winger video that I did that got like 600,000 views or whatever.
38:13Many times I've kind of regretted even doing that because like,
38:17I don't,
38:17I don't want the large exposure.
38:21I want change to happen.
38:24And I want to be able to articulate and talk to people who also want to see change.
38:30And I want to be able to share my insights with,
38:34with historians like yourself,
38:36John,
38:36who are trying to bring about change by really addressing the system that created the situation that my father was
38:46able to pray upon.
38:48Now,
38:49that being said,
38:50I would love to see your people subscribe to you and watch more of your videos and those videos go
38:56up.
38:56But the point is,
38:58is that this isn't done in order to get attention.
39:02This is done in order to get change.
39:04And it is heartbreaking to me that Bethel is recognizing that everything that I said was true and that everything
39:14that was going on with my dad and Mike Bickle and these others like that,
39:19that where there was smoke,
39:20there was fire and yet they are only trying to put out the smoke and not trying to put out
39:26the fire.
39:27I,
39:27I can't say that definitively,
39:29but certainly from my perspective,
39:31they seem way more concerned with the smoke than the fire.
39:34And I think that that is really heartbreaking because it,
39:38one,
39:40it is sort of dampens the,
39:42the idea that this won't happen again.
39:45Like that.
39:58I,
39:59I'm not going to think about whether or not that they should be so gung ho and invested in miracles
40:06and miracle working that they are not even going to question whether or not any of this is fake.
40:11I don't know if there's going to be any sort of hesitancy and responsibility with this.
40:16I hope so,
40:17but I am not optimistic.
40:19I want to go back to something that you said,
40:21because I think that's important as it relates to this,
40:24that not many people catch.
40:27You know how this works.
40:28You were around the upper tier.
40:30I was around the upper tier.
40:31I know others who were.
40:33This idea that things are happening because either someone is anointed or it's a divine providence by God.
40:43You know how this works,
40:44especially if you're a kid growing up watching it.
40:46Things happen because of coincidences and every single coincidence.
40:50Oh my gosh,
40:51God just came down in our midst when you're behind the pulpit.
40:54That's how they would preach it.
40:56I mean,
40:56two people might happen to show up at Kroger at the same aisle at the same time and they say,
41:01God just placed her right there in my path.
41:04I heard stories like this,
41:05right?
41:06To the audience who's not familiar with how it works in the upper tiers,
41:11they're thinking,
41:12wow,
41:13God is in our midst.
41:14Look at this.
41:15Those two people met in the aisle at Kroger.
41:17But to the inner circle,
41:19they just,
41:19they don't even really realize that they're doing it.
41:23It just comes so naturally.
41:24God,
41:25every single thing is God inspired when you're a lead in this.
41:29The problem is,
41:30and this is one thing that I will say,
41:34Bethel probably doesn't know because I was in the system.
41:37I know that I overlooked it when I was in it.
41:39Now that I get out,
41:40I look at just how foolish we were.
41:43But when you try to present that type of atmosphere where everything you do,
41:48God did it for you and every single thing that could possibly happen,
41:53such as platforming an individual and suddenly his ministry blows up.
41:57God was in his midst.
41:59The moment you combine that with the prophetic,
42:04that is the recipe for disaster because now people take it to the next level.
42:09Okay,
42:09this person's being platformed and they had a prophecy about him.
42:13So therefore God has elected this individual to bring,
42:18God's children home.
42:19I mean,
42:20that's literally what the people in the audience are thinking.
42:22Now the people who are on the platform,
42:24they have done this so much that it's not even really that they're lying.
42:29It's just like second nature.
42:30They start speaking and straight out of their butt,
42:34they pull these things.
42:35People in the pews have no idea that came straight out of his butt.
42:40Whenever you have prophecies that come straight out of your butt,
42:43it's not really a prophecy.
42:45And the problem that we're seeing here is now they're starting to say,
42:48I see this.
42:49They see that the platforming isn't working,
42:52but here's where it gets really,
42:55really touchy.
42:56Some of those people that they have even denounced and now these four scapegoats,
43:02some of those people are tied to prophetic statements that they had about those people.
43:07So was that statement true?
43:09Did that really come from God?
43:11Did God really inspire them to speak about this individual and praise them and say,
43:16this is the greatest prophet I've ever known or whatever is the thing that they pulled straight out of their
43:21butt?
43:22My point is at some point,
43:24the congregation is going to realize when you're doing this,
43:27there's only so many statements you can pull out of your butt before you get caught.
43:31And I think if this continues and they're continuing in the right direction,
43:36I'm not going to deny that.
43:38If they continue in the right direction,
43:41here's one of the problems that they're going to face.
43:44It's a lie.
43:46When you pull a prophecy out of your butt and people realize that that didn't come true,
43:52like you said,
43:53that came out right out of your back pocket.
43:56People know and can pick up on the lie.
43:59And what do you do with this?
44:00How do you turn a ship that's that large with that many people in it in a way that can
44:07help them get closer to God?
44:08Do you turn the ship or do you do something else?
44:13I'm not going to say what they should do.
44:16I don't know where it's headed from there,
44:18but I can say that if I was in that congregation and I look at this report and I see
44:22these names,
44:24and in my memory,
44:25I'm remembering the prophetic statements about them.
44:29Now I'm going to question every single prophecy that they have issued.
44:33Yeah.
44:34And as you should,
44:35and as everyone should who looks at Bethel and looks at their miracle-making machine,
44:44I mean,
44:45you have to question it.
44:48And I remember having conversations with my dad that were very interesting philosophical conversations that,
44:55for me at least,
44:57this was probably when I was in my early 20s because I was writing this book about my dad and
45:04we were talking about his stories.
45:05And my dad was always a very grand and effective storyteller.
45:10He would tell these stories about things that happened in his life.
45:14And you would believe him because he's such a bizarre character that he would get himself in these legitimately bizarre
45:23situations.
45:24And many of the stories had truth to them or were entirely true,
45:29but many of them were also either partially or completely fabricated.
45:35And he recognized that.
45:38And we talked even about that.
45:40And it was even a tongue-in-cheek thing in the book that I wrote.
45:44Like,
45:45it was called,
45:46I hope it's not hereditary,
45:48the mostly true stories of my father,
45:50Bob Hartley.
45:51So I have that tag of like the mostly true because it sort of recognized like,
45:57ah,
45:57we got a big fish situation.
45:59He loved that movie,
46:00by the way,
46:01I don't know if you've seen it,
46:02but about the,
46:04the father who tells all of these grand stories.
46:07And then at his funeral,
46:08you've,
46:09you,
46:09all of these bizarre characters who he had talked about come to the funeral.
46:14And,
46:15you know,
46:15he talked about a giant who was 12 foot tall.
46:18And there's some guy who comes to it who was like seven,
46:22eight or something like that,
46:23where it's like the big fish analogy,
46:25where the fish gets bigger.
46:27You caught a good big fish,
46:28but every time you tell a story,
46:30the fish gets bigger and bigger and bigger.
46:32And my dad was,
46:33was a,
46:35that type of storyteller.
46:37And we had these conversations of like,
46:40I remember my mom really disliked it.
46:43And I was like,
46:44well,
46:44I think that the point is to tell a good story.
46:47The point is to entertain.
46:49The point is to engage and get the message across.
46:54And I'm a fiction writer.
46:56So I do this purely in fiction.
46:59And so I,
47:00I was kind of like,
47:01well,
47:01what's the harm blending a little truth in fiction and telling these stories.
47:05And,
47:05and I still think that to some extent,
47:07I still think that,
47:08you know,
47:09if you're listening to a pastor and you're hearing him tell some stories and
47:12he's fudging a little bit to get that emphasis across,
47:17I'm fine with that.
47:18Like I,
47:18I get why people do that to entertain and get the message and point across.
47:24But in that sense,
47:26you had a situation where my father had decided that the impact was more
47:30important than the truth.
47:31In fact,
47:32the impact was the only thing that mattered with his storytelling and Hollywood
47:39will do that.
47:41And storytellers in general will do that.
47:43What you now have is you have a church who has decided that impact is more
47:49important than everything.
47:50And that is leading to all of these situations where now it's not just stories
47:58being told.
47:59Now it's prophecies being told where truth matters,
48:04whether or not you,
48:05if you know,
48:06the,
48:06you tell a story that's kind of like an allegorical tale,
48:11whether or not it happened doesn't matter because it's about the message and,
48:15and you know,
48:17many of Jesus's parables,
48:19like didn't reference to things that literally happened.
48:22That doesn't matter because it's about the story and the message that's being
48:26told.
48:27But when it comes to prophecy,
48:29when it comes to miracles,
48:32the truth matters,
48:34not just a little,
48:35like the truth is contingent,
48:38is necessary for it to matter.
48:42But Bethel has decided that impact is more important than truth.
48:47In fact,
48:48impact is the only thing that matters.
48:53And so therefore,
48:54if all of this impact is happening,
48:57if people are being,
49:00if a spiritual frenzy is being worked up,
49:02so you're going to conferences and people are weeping in the chairs,
49:06that's all that matters.
49:07Right.
49:08And I think that there's this sort of excuse in the head.
49:13And I know this because I did it myself because it's like,
49:16well,
49:16if it leads people to God,
49:17it has to be good.
49:18But the truth is,
49:20is that it doesn't actually always lead people to God.
49:22It leads people to spiritual frenzy.
49:25It doesn't lead people to actually have a deeper spiritual understanding because to have
49:32understanding,
49:33you have to have knowledge based on at least a kernel of truth.
49:37And so there is instead frenzied deception that is being spread.
49:43So this whole idea that,
49:45well,
49:45it's leading to God one that goes completely out the window.
49:49And secondly,
49:53it doesn't always,
49:55that doesn't negate the fact that it's deception.
49:57Even if like someone's life improves and they feel like,
50:00oh,
50:01well,
50:01I got this Bob Hartley prophecy.
50:02And even though it wasn't true,
50:04it still led me closer to God.
50:06Yet that doesn't,
50:07that doesn't negate the fact that it was still deception.
50:10Like it's not this consequentialist standpoint.
50:14Like I,
50:15I just don't think that that is morally true.
50:17Like,
50:17I think that the,
50:18the truth of the situation matters deeply and the impact and consequences of that,
50:25if not felt in the immediate or not felt in the person,
50:28there will be consequences.
50:30There always are some like the paper,
50:32the paper must always be,
50:34always be paid for these things.
50:35And the fact that Bethel is giving a platform to people who are doing these deceptive and abusive things,
50:49the consequences of that are churning.
50:51And the only reason why Bethel is now doing something about it is because it's affecting their impact.
51:01It's like,
51:02it's not because they had a moral awakening.
51:06Maybe perhaps they did have a moral awakening,
51:09but it was because they saw people say,
51:12I don't know if I want to,
51:14this is bad for the brand.
51:15I don't want to listen to Bethel music.
51:18I don't want to go to their prophetic conferences.
51:21I'm sure their prophetic conferences numbers are down.
51:24Like I'm,
51:24I am positive.
51:26Their prophetic conference numbers are,
51:28are dipping one because most of their big ticket profits have now been embroidered in scandals.
51:36So they can't have their big ticket profits come to speak at their conferences.
51:41So who are,
51:42who are they going to put on,
51:44on the billing?
51:45But also I think that there's a lot of people who are just suspicious of rightfully so suspicious of Bethel.
51:52And I think that that is what has lit the fire underneath them for change.
51:56So I really do think that until Bethel changes its priorities,
52:01until it doesn't put impact as the,
52:05the only priority and with impact money,
52:10if those two things are,
52:13are properly relegated underneath the virtues of like truth,
52:19honesty,
52:20integrity,
52:24the sexual morality,
52:26like just morality in general,
52:27if those things are quite appropriately put at the top of the priority,
52:33then you,
52:34that's when we're going to see a change here.
52:36And I,
52:37I don't think it's happened yet,
52:38but hopefully we're,
52:39we are pressuring them to start thinking about that at the very least.
52:44And at least it's a step in the right direction.
52:47Right.
52:47Thank you so much for doing this.
52:49Thank you,
52:49John.
52:50Well,
52:50if you've enjoyed our show and you want more information,
52:52you can check us out on the web.
52:53You can find us at william-branham.org.
52:56For more about the dark side of the new apostolic reformation,
52:59you can read weaponized religion from Christian identity to the NAR available on Amazon,
53:03Kindle and Kindle.
53:05Kindle and Arbo.
53:41A film byju can address on orphanage use WE,
53:42Bye-bye.
53:44And we will be2-5
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53:49we will be our scratches on kami praeros.
53:49All right,
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