- 2 days ago
Catch up with all the latest news across the county with Meghan Shaw.
This week we were joined by Kent County Council Leader, Cllr Linden Kemkaran; Cllr George Perfect, leader of the Medway Conservative group, and Cllr Jonathon Hawkes, a labour representative from Dartford Borough Council to discuss what Kent might look like under four unitary authorities.
This week we were joined by Kent County Council Leader, Cllr Linden Kemkaran; Cllr George Perfect, leader of the Medway Conservative group, and Cllr Jonathon Hawkes, a labour representative from Dartford Borough Council to discuss what Kent might look like under four unitary authorities.
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TVTranscript
00:20Welcome to the Kent Politics Show here on Kame TV. I'm Megan Shaw and the wait is finally over.
00:26After a year of deliberation, consultation and debate, we now know what Kent and Medway's councils will look like in
00:342028,
00:35with the county's 12 district councils as well as Medway and Kent County Council set to be replaced by four
00:41new unitary councils.
00:43Notably, this is neither the choice that Medway Council or KCC were hoping for and response was mixed.
00:50Our local democracy reporter Olly Leder got some reaction at County Hall.
00:54But of course I am very disappointed that government haven't chosen the bold vision that we took.
01:00It leaves some of the challenges which we highlighted already.
01:04People like Walder Slade will still be in two different councils.
01:08Faversham will now not be in a council focusing towards its relationship with Canterbury,
01:13which we know is really important to the community there.
01:15But for me, ultimately, the decision has been made.
01:18You know, some councils may talk about judicial review.
01:21I think that would be a waste of taxpayers' money if they go down that route.
01:24I think what's very likely to happen is that all the savings that they're thinking about making simply won't emerge.
01:30And before long, those new councils will be spending exactly what the old councils were spending.
01:34That tends to happen in local government.
01:36And I think also the services then, you've got a disconnect in place.
01:39So there's not even someone locally to guide this through.
01:42I have no problems with Medway.
01:44Vince and I get on great.
01:45They're a great council.
01:46But they're a great council for Medway.
01:47And I don't want them making decisions about a leisure centre in Dartford.
01:51Any more than the people of Medway want us making decisions in Dartford about them.
01:55So that's the big concern I've got, is that democratic deficit.
01:58The 4B option is not what Maidstone Borough Council campaigned for.
02:01But it's not the worst option either.
02:04So it does leave Maidstone in West Kent, where we wanted to be, under the 3A option, which is the
02:10one we championed.
02:11So it's not the end of the world for us.
02:14And we welcome the certainty that this brings.
02:19And I'm now joined by Councillor Jonathan Hawkes, representing Dartford Borough Council for Labour.
02:25George Perfect, leader of the Medway Conservatives Group.
02:28And Lyndon Kemkaren, the leader of Kent County Council for Reform UK.
02:34Lyndon, I'll come to you first, because we didn't actually get reaction from reform.
02:38Obviously, you were vouching for that big, large council, option one.
02:43What was your reaction to the result there?
02:45Not at all what you put forward.
02:47Well, I'm slightly confused because I did give an interview to Olly Leader last night at about 10 to 6
02:52in the evening.
02:53So I don't know what's happened to that.
02:54Do you know what's happened to that?
02:55Well, this was recorded for Kent tonight.
02:57So we hadn't had time to cut that.
02:59But you obviously give us your reaction here now.
03:02Well, I think option 4B is not the right option for Kent.
03:06I think it's going to be extremely expensive to implement.
03:09I think it's going to effectively carve off East Kent and leave it completely unsupported by the rest of the
03:17county.
03:17I think it's also going to make it very difficult for the new four unitaries to set up and run
03:26the core services that, of course, have been run countywide by KCC for so long.
03:32We've been able to run things like adult social care, children's integrated services, and, of course, highways on scale.
03:39You know, we've been able to produce those services on a large scale and get greater economies for them.
03:46I also worry about the cost of setting up four unitaries.
03:51The cost is coming in at around £530 million.
03:55And so far, no one's been able to answer the question of who is going to pay for that.
04:00And my worry has always been that enormous cost is going to get passed down to us, the council taxpayers.
04:06And that is simply not on.
04:09I mean, if a council is particularly unhappy, there is the option that they could put forward a judicial review.
04:14Is that something that you're considering?
04:18I haven't had the meeting with my staff yet.
04:20Yesterday was our full council meeting at Kent County Council.
04:23So I was in the chamber for eight hours.
04:25I nipped out briefly to take the call with the minister at 10.45.
04:28And then we were straight back into the council chamber.
04:31So we've not had a sit-down meeting yet to discuss our options going forward.
04:35After months and months of LGR, we knew this was coming.
04:39You must have, you know, accounted for all the sorts of scenarios that might have come out if it wasn't
04:43the plan you'd hoped for.
04:45Of course we have.
04:48But no concrete plan if there'll be a judicial review?
04:53With respect, I'm certainly not going to discuss it here on KMTV.
04:57It's a decision that will be taken by myself and my team on Monday.
05:02And we'll widen that chat out.
05:03Obviously, there's multiple parties that were kind of disappointed.
05:07George, the Medway Conservatives, you put forward something different, as did at Dartford Borough Council.
05:12But, you know, in the near future, you two might be colleagues on that same council.
05:17We had that reaction from Jeremy Kite there.
05:19What are those concerns?
05:21Well, look, I think there are a whole range of concerns that people across Kent have been expressing.
05:26I think there you saw from Jeremy some of those concerns, particularly around how the new unitaries are going to
05:32operate.
05:32Obviously, we were proposing Option 3A, which was supported by the vast majority of Conservatives across Kent,
05:38which I think would have delivered councils that were large enough to matter but still small enough to care for
05:44the communities that they serve.
05:45We're a unitary council.
05:47I think unitary councils are the right way for local government to go.
05:50I think there is a responsibility now on all leaders within Kent to get on with this.
05:55I think, you know, we've had the decision from the Secretary of State.
05:57I think there is a role now for all councils to get on with actually just delivering the decision that's
06:03been taken.
06:03And at the end of the day, we have a responsibility to ensure that those councils, our shadow elections are
06:08ready to go in May next year.
06:10And then, of course, the shadow period set up and ready to go to deliver for people across Kent and
06:15Medway, because that's ultimately now what the job is.
06:18I think it was interesting that we haven't yet had confirmation from any of the councils that have had concerns
06:23whether or not they're going to be bringing those judicial reviews.
06:25But, of course, we'll have to wait and see what happens in the days ahead.
06:28I mean, you seem to be ploughing ahead with having to work together and get the job done.
06:33But we just heard from Jeremy Kite there, who seems, you know, quite upset that his residents would be combined
06:38with those of Medway's.
06:39What do you think of that, Jonathan?
06:40Something you agree with?
06:41Well, I don't agree.
06:41I very much disagree with it.
06:43And I think both Jeremy, George and Lyndon are missing the wider point here.
06:48Outside of Medway, we have a two-tier system of local government in Kent, which is completely broken.
06:54It's expensive.
06:55It's inefficient.
06:57It's confusing for residents who quite often get passed from one council to another council in order to get just
07:03quite the simplest things done.
07:05We need to change that system.
07:07We think there's a better way of running local government in Kent, and that's why we're moving to a system
07:12of smaller unitary authorities, more focused on the local areas that they serve, not the massive Kent County Council countywide
07:20focus, more focused on those areas they're concerned.
07:23That means that we're going to have decisions that are taken much closer to local residents and the residents they
07:29affect.
07:29It means we're going to be able to deliver better services and get more value for council tax.
07:33And, crucially, it's going to be easier to get things done for local residents.
07:38It's a positive move, and we're absolutely committed to making it work for my residents in Dartford and across North
07:46Kent.
07:46We'll pick up on that point, though, that you think local government in Kent is broken.
07:50Obviously, we've got the leader of Kent County Council here.
07:53Obviously, we know that finances is an issue.
07:55Balancing the books is an issue in Kent, Lyndon.
07:57Is LGR something you do ultimately welcome?
08:02I don't disagree that there are better ways to organise the county and to provide services to the people that
08:09need them most.
08:10I think we can all agree on that.
08:12It's how that is done.
08:14Now, I accepted that LGR was going to happen, even though I didn't want it to happen.
08:18So we came up with what I thought was a much more workable proposal, which was called Option 1A.
08:24And that was evidence-based.
08:26It wasn't a preferential thing at all.
08:29We accepted it was happening, and Option 1A would have reduced complexity.
08:35It would have strengthened the financial resilience of Kent, and it would have essentially minimised disruption to those essential services.
08:43But the most crucial thing about Option 1A, it would have paid for itself within three years.
08:49It was the cheapest option to set up.
08:52It gave Kent that overarching strategic authority, which, of course, is completely lacking in the government's plans at the moment.
09:00They want to carve up Kent and not put an overarching strategic authority on top.
09:05I think that's a massive error.
09:07And it would, of course, concentrate on the place-based services via three area assemblies.
09:12So in my mind, it was absolutely the obvious solution.
09:15It wouldn't have done any of those things.
09:18Reform's choice was to create a mega council with hundreds of councillors and centralised services in the middle of it.
09:27That is the opposite of what we're trying to do here.
09:30We're trying to devolve decisions and bring decisions back to local people.
09:35Reform wanted to centralise them in the centre.
09:38It was completely the wrong choice and actually sort of in common for what we've seen from reform, which is
09:43to take a problem and then make it worse.
09:46What we need is local, smaller councils that are closer to the communities that they serve.
09:52And Reform's option, well, it didn't get the time of day from the government.
09:55I think we can understand why.
09:57And even...
09:58Where's the overarching strategic authority to control those smaller councils?
10:02How are they going to be actually governed and run?
10:05When you're talking about the core services that Kent County Council has provided very successfully for a number of years.
10:12District and borough councils at the moment, with respect, have no idea about implementing those services.
10:18It is absolutely ludicrous that they have chosen a model where they have no idea how those services are going
10:23to be disaggregated and carved up.
10:26I'm afraid you're talking absolute nonsense and there's no evidence behind what you've just said.
10:30Well, this is the solution that we will be going forward within 2028 and even these councils are quite large.
10:36A big concern is that some existing groups will be split up.
10:39For example, Walterslade will be... the boundary will be drawn there.
10:43George, is there a kind of a risk of what that might mean for existing communities now shifting into, I
10:49suppose, different areas that they weren't before?
10:51Yeah, I mean, look, there are... I think there are concerns with this model.
10:55I mean, you've got a council, for example, that's going to be running from Swale all the way down to
10:59Folkestone through the central belt.
11:01So, look, there are, of course... Is it a perfect model? No.
11:05I think the point that I think Lyndon seems to be missing with the greatest deal of respect is that
11:11actually, for example, in Medway, we've got great experience of running a unitary authority.
11:14We've got staff that I'm sure will work at KCC and at Medway that will be able to provide the
11:19experience of providing upper-tier services.
11:21I'm sure that the councillors that will be elected next May in their shadow year will ensure that those councils
11:27are set up and established with the highest quality staff
11:29and to provide the best quality services and through mechanisms such as the LGA and others,
11:34there are mechanisms for councillors to understand and learn about those roles.
11:38And I don't... you know, we're not... the boroughs aren't... the districts aren't going to be running those councils.
11:43They're new councils. George, I'm sorry, I'm going to have to cut you off, but we'll be back after the
11:47break with just the same.
11:48We'll catch you then.
12:16We'll catch you then.
12:46We'll catch you then.
18:10you councillors? Do you have full faith? In what? The process? In your administration?
18:20Of course I have faith in my administration. I mean, you know, I have a duty to be honest
18:25in this process about the risks I believe the government's decision presents to the residents
18:31of Quent. Because let's be straight about this. That's what we're all here for. This is not about
18:36playing politics. It is about providing services to the most elderly and most vulnerable residents
18:42right across our county. And if I see an option that essentially carves off East Kent, for example,
18:49and leaves it on its own without the combined wealth of council tax collection of the wealthy
18:54parts of Kent, the West and the North Kent, East Kent also has the border to deal with. And now
19:00they're going to be carved off, left completely on their own. It is unsustainable. How are they
19:05going to fund the services that are most desperately needed by, you know, some of the most deprived
19:10parts of the county? How's that going to be funded? I'd love to ask George and Jonathan,
19:15who's going to pay for this? Who's going to pay for the £530 million bill to carve up the county?
19:21Can you answer that? Well, we've heard quite a pessimistic view, I think, from Lyndon this
19:26morning. And I think that bodes well for any future reform administration. You can't answer
19:31the questions, aren't you? You can't answer who's going to pay for it. I would simply say,
19:35I think we just need to look to the future here. We're about to have a prime minister who is
19:39a
19:39shining, living example of how devolution works and can deliver for communities. We look at the
19:45example in Manchester, look at the example in Brighton that we've seen in other areas of the
19:51country. We've seen how putting those decisions closer to people can deliver better outcomes,
19:56things like public transport, for health. We've now got a prime minister who's wanting to replicate
20:02that model across the country. Now, for Kent, you know, the prospect of us to be able to, for
20:07example, to be able to join up public transport provision across the county in a way that it
20:12isn't at the moment is going to be of a huge benefit to residents across the county. The ability
20:18to join up public health provision across the county, these are huge benefits for the county
20:25that devolution is going to deliver. This is the first step today to get the unitary authorities
20:32in place and to be able to get the councils working, the smaller unitary authorities working
20:37together, serving their communities. Going forward, what we absolutely want to see is a
20:44strategic authority on top of that with a mayor, because that is when you start to really realise
20:50the benefits of taking power away from Whitehall, away from central government and into local
20:56communities in Kent. And that can only be a good thing for residents and it can only be
21:00a benefit to Kent.
21:01George, you're nodding in agreement.
21:02If I could just come back in and ask George a question, sorry, Jonathan a question, please.
21:07Can you answer, are you good at maths? Because I'd love you to tell me, is 4.99 higher or
21:13lower
21:13than 3.99%? Higher or lower? And what are you referring to, Lyndon? The council tax rise
21:22that Medway council imposed on its residents this year. Yeah, was that the one that you
21:26promised you weren't going to make, Lyndon? Was that higher or lower than 3.99? So, Lyndon,
21:33your councillors in Dartford campaigned on a promise to not only not rise councillors, to cut it,
21:40it's 4.99% higher or lower than 3.99%? Can you not answer a very simple question?
21:48Is it higher or lower? If you'll stop shouting at me for a minute. What my residents notice
21:54is that you made a promise not to increase council tax and you break that promise. That's
21:58what they noticed. You're not very good at maths, are you, Jonathan? You can't add up,
22:01can you, Jonathan? You're not very good at maths. All right, we'll move this.
22:05I can add up that my council tax bill is higher under reformed administration than it was before.
22:09Medway council tax, Medway council increased council tax more than Kent County Council did.
22:15I'd just like you to acknowledge that fact. You funded that through reserves, though, didn't you?
22:21No, we absolutely did not. Next question.
22:25We'll move this conversation back to local government reorganisation. Obviously,
22:29that's what people have tuned in to hear for the most part. District councils, of course,
22:34are important. They give, you know, they allow residents to kind of quite directly contact their
22:38councillor. They feel maybe quite in the loop with what's going on in their area, kind of local things,
22:45bins, things like that. They allow residents maybe to feel seen. With these huge councils,
22:50although there are four of them, they're still very large. George, obviously, you know,
22:54you were part of a team running a unitary council for a while. Is there a risk there that these
22:59residents might feel swamped, that they might feel that they can't reach out to their representatives
23:03anymore? Well, I think that is a risk, yeah, and I think that's why it's important to still ensure
23:07that, you know, you've got that good level of representation, which is really important.
23:12I think, obviously, the role of town and parish councils also have a role in that, and in Medway,
23:16we have particularly strong ones out on the western side of the authority. So, I think, yeah,
23:22there is a role of us needing to ensure that democratic participation is still there,
23:26but I think it can still be achieved, and as I say, through Medway Council, we've been able to do
23:30that. Unitary councillors do that quite well. And these local services that are currently delivered
23:34by districts and borough councils, we've got a really good district and borough council,
23:37you know, a borough council in Dartford. These local services are not going anywhere. They'll transfer
23:43to the new unitary authority, and there's a really important role for local councillors in there,
23:48you know, and all I can say that in Dartford, if Dartford residents vote for a Labour local
23:52councillor on the 6th of May 2027 to the new unitary authority, they'll have somebody who
23:58is very much focused on delivering locally and making sure that we get place-based outcomes
24:04for Dartford. So, all those local services absolutely will continue under the new unitary authority.
24:14Obviously, Lyndon, throughout this entire conversation, you've been quite negative about
24:18the government's plan, about what might be the future of Kent, but as far as we know,
24:23this is the reality. For any residents watching and thinking, oh, the leader of Kent County
24:27Council seems against what's going to happen to services. What would you say to that?
24:33I'm not against what's going to happen to services. My priority is making sure those services
24:38continue. We've made those services continue over the last two years against a backdrop of
24:43huge uncertainty from the government that kept chopping and changing its mind about what it
24:47wanted. But one thing I do want to say is I'm worried. I'm very concerned. We have a Labour
24:53government in power. We have an unelected, untested, largely unknown new prime minister being imposed
24:59upon us with no mandate. We know that Labour has no plan to tackle immigration. We know that we have
25:06added 10 million people to the population over the last 20 years, thanks to a Conservative government
25:11government and now a Labour government. And I'm really worried that Kent is going to be a dumping
25:16ground, that these plans to split us up is a way of imposing more and more new housing developments
25:22on our greenbelt, on our precious agricultural land to house the millions and millions of people
25:28that are being let in this country.
25:32You think that local government reorganisation is a plan to let more immigrants have houses in Kent?
25:40It wouldn't surprise me at all. The minister's letter mentions housing, housing, housing. It's
25:46clearly a focus of this Labour government. And that's one of my big concerns.
25:51I would argue that Starmer's policies on immigration, some of the harshest Labour policies we've seen
25:56on immigration thus far, such as things such as increasing the level of English that migrants
26:01seem to have before they come to this country. But I'll put that to you, Jonathan.
26:05Well, I think we could just move over to these rather odd conspiracy theories for a minute. I mean,
26:09the truth of the matter is, under the Labour government, small boat crossings are down,
26:13immigration numbers are down. So while reform kind of talk about it, the Labour government's actually
26:18delivering it. And the idea of local government reorganisation being somehow, being able to kind of
26:25have more immigration in the country, I really don't understand those comments. And I think most people
26:30would find them a little bit odd.
26:32I think as the, you know, the leader of Kent County Council, your residents might want to hear
26:37reassurance, strength from you, that you're going to ensure that services still continue.
26:44I'm sure residents have complete faith in Kent County Council. Look at what we've achieved
26:50since we came into office over the last year. We have not made any cuts to frontline services. In fact,
26:55we've invested in children's social services and in adult social care. But at the same time,
27:00we have managed to lower the increase in council tax that was baked in by the previous Tory
27:06administration. I think that's quite an achievement. And which saved £144 million off the long-term debt
27:12that, again, was inherited from the previous Tory administration. So I think a residence of Kent
27:18can look at Kent County Council and see an administration that is fiscally responsible,
27:22is financially prudent, and is not cutting frontline services to pay for any of it.
27:29I'm sorry, Lyndon, I'm going to cut you off because that is all we've got time for on the Kent
27:32Politics
27:32Show this week. We'll catch you later at Kent tonight. Thank you so much.
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