- 17 hours ago
During October, to mark Menopause Awareness Month, HELLO! has teamed up with. Wellbeing of Women to present a series of short webinars as a follow-up to our Menopause Workplace Pledge.
Category
✨
PeopleTranscript
00:00Today, I'm pleased to be chatting to Helen Tomlinson, who's the Menopause Champion for
00:05the Department of Work and Pensions. She's also the Head of Talents and Inclusion for
00:09the ADECO Group, a large recruitment firm where she has also hosted a podcast on menopause
00:15and work. Thanks for joining me today, Helen. I've been really excited about talking to
00:20you.
00:21Thank you. Now, first of all, I am a strong believer in the power of women sharing their
00:28stories. So I wondered if it's okay with you, if we could kick off with talking about your
00:34own experience of perimenopause and menopause.
00:38Absolutely. And I completely agree that lived experience creates such a, you know, a sense
00:45of community and an opportunity for women and people going through perimenopause and menopause
00:52to really feel like they can tell their story as well. So I'm really comfortable doing that.
00:57Thank you for asking. So I had a hysterectomy in 2015. And as I left the hospital, the consultant
01:09said to me, oh, by the way, you might go into menopause straight away. And I said, how will
01:16I know? And he just said, oh, you'll know. And that was it. And I thought, but the lack
01:21of education, but the fact that actually it was just an aside then back in 2015. So I didn't
01:29go straight into perimenopause or menopause. It was about, I'd probably say about five years
01:35after when literally overnight, I started to really struggle with very heavy and unmanageable
01:45and long periods. And at the time I didn't really understand why. Sorry, that's completely
01:54incorrect. It was before I, before I had my hysterectomy, sorry, that I struggled with really
01:58heavy periods. Sorry. And that was the reason actually I had the hysterectomy was because of
02:03those really heavy periods because they were endless. And I was really lucky that I was
02:08in a role where my job was completely autonomous. So I could, you know, choose whether I was sales
02:16director for a company and I could choose whether I worked from home, I went into the office long
02:22before COVID, obviously, or whether I did a client presentation on that particular day. And
02:28I had to have that flexibility because there were days that I didn't stand up, let alone
02:32leave the office. And then I, once I'd had my hysterectomy, I went to work for an organisation
02:39where I had to be in the office every day. And one of my symptoms then was really, really
02:46unbearable hot flushes. And so I was given a fan on wheels so that every time I went to a
02:55meeting,
02:56I could take the fan with me. And I'd said, I explained to my line manager why I, you know,
03:01I was having hot flushes. And he thought that he was doing a really good thing by providing me with
03:08this wheelie fan. He even put a sticker on it that said, Helen's fan, do not remove. So all that
03:13happened was everybody was just saying to me, why have you got a fan and I haven't got a fan?
03:18And
03:18so I kept having to retell my story. And those two things have really stuck in my mind. The fact
03:24that I
03:24was lucky enough to have that autonomy in my job that I never had to explain to my manager that,
03:32you know, what was happening to me, because it was so debilitating. And at that point in time,
03:37when people weren't talking about it, so embarrassing that I just didn't want to have to
03:42keep, you know, have that conversation. And then the fact that my line manager later on felt he was
03:48doing a really good thing by giving me a fan on wheels with my name on it. And I, you
03:54know,
03:54a fairly confident person, but had I not been, that could have really destroyed my confidence.
03:59And I think that really sort of created my passion for wanting to do better for women, you know,
04:08move on. It's almost eight years ago now, probably been involved in this for the last three,
04:12eight, but doing better for women in the workplace who don't have that autonomy, don't feel like they
04:19can have that conversation with their line manager, or more broadly, you know, with colleagues, etc. So
04:26I'm really comfortable and being open about, you know, my personal experience, because 44% of women
04:33really struggle with heavy periods during perimenopause. And, you know, that's a really
04:38difficult conversation to start to have with somebody. And especially when your workplace
04:43doesn't quite know how to open up that conversation. So that I mean, we kind of both made me chuckle
04:49that Helen's fan. And as you say, it was lucky that you're such a strong woman who was able to
04:55kind
04:55of take that but being singled out in that way is also kind of very difficult for some women, even
05:02though the best intentions might have been there from your manager. And I saw that you talking to the
05:08times not so long ago as well about these kind of really debilitating symptoms, you talked about
05:14the heavy bleeding and the hot flashes. How did that affect your sort of performance at work as well,
05:19do you think?
05:20I think it didn't, it kind of came out in the more psychological symptoms, if I'm really honest,
05:28because those two symptoms are the really practical symptoms. And when I talk to employers,
05:33I talk about the three types of roles, the autonomous, the semi-autonomous, and the non-autonomous,
05:39where you've literally got no choice but to show up, be physically present, and often in front of
05:47clients, customers, pupils, patients, whatever that role is. But I also talk about the two main types of
05:56symptoms, the practical symptoms, which are difficult to manage, but the psychological symptoms as well.
06:02So I was really lucky that I could manage my practical symptoms. And it is often women in
06:07leadership roles who have the autonomy to manage the practical, but the psychological, the thought
06:15that actually, you know, is my time up? Can I still do this? That lack of confidence, the anxiety,
06:24the lack of sleep, which exacerbates all of those. Those are the things that I found really,
06:30really difficult. And so much of it can be out of your control if you have to go into a
06:36workplace
06:37sort of every day. You had a certain amount of autonomy over your role, but so many women out
06:43there don't. So we've talked about the fan and obviously, you know, we've heard cases of opening
06:48the windows or sitting somebody near a window or giving them a slightly looser jacket to wear.
06:53But what advice would you offer to employers on how to address menopause support in the workplace?
06:59I think there's a number of things. And obviously, starting with something like the menopause
07:05workplace pledge is so important. And part of my government strategy is around encouraging employers
07:12to do that. So women and people going through menopause can make choices about where they want
07:19to work. And also women coming back into the workplace can make good choices about where they want to work.
07:25So I think that's one really important aspect of it. A policy, again, is a very important aspect.
07:32But what I would say about that is when we launched our policy back in 2021, I genuinely thought it
07:39was,
07:39this is it, job done. I've done a great thing. We've got a menopause policy. And actually,
07:44all that did was start the conversation that ultimately changed the culture of the organisation.
07:50And it's what it leads to that's important. So it's about the doing things like podcasts,
07:57getting leadership buy-in. So the first thing we did before we launched the policy was I did a podcast
08:04with some senior leaders in the organisation about their experiences, their perspectives, etc.
08:09And what that did was allow other people to come forward and say, you know, that's what's happened.
08:15And that's why I talk about my debilitating symptoms, because if it lets one other person
08:20start that conversation with their GP, with their manager, with their partner, it's a really positive
08:27step. So having that top-down conversation around this is what's happening to me and this is how it's
08:34making me feel is super important. The next thing I think is around the training. So education is
08:40absolutely key. Again, with my strategy that I'm deploying, education and allyship is what creates
08:49cultural change. So the line manager training, the awareness sessions, the psychological safe space
08:58sessions to ask any question you want in a safe space, whether that be for yourself or for a
09:04colleague, those are all really important. And I think the third thing is those allyship programmes
09:11that organisations can have to give you a safe space, whether that is a menopause coffee morning,
09:18a network group or something like that. That is the key that really makes the conversation
09:26normal. It normalises the conversation. And there are lots of resources out there now,
09:30sort of from the Wellbeing of Women website. And I know that some companies, including Channel 4,
09:36have actually published their menopause policy. Have you published yours at the ADECO group?
09:41We share it with our clients. Anybody who wants to see it can have a look at it. We haven't
09:45necessarily published it in the open workspace. But yeah, anybody who wants to have a copy of it can
09:54have a look at it and use it and overlay it into their organisation, for sure.
09:59Great. And then embedding that culture all around it, as you say, as we've just talked about at the
10:03beginning of this conversation, that power in women being able to talk to each other and share
10:09their experiences in a safe space. I've heard of lots of companies having menopause ambassadors now.
10:16Is that something you have at the ADECO group yet?
10:19Yeah. Yeah. Champions. Absolutely. We've got the Hot Topics Network. We've got our, we, yeah.
10:28But what that's allowed us to do is set up other networks. And I think that's really important as
10:34well, that we have. So we talk more broadly now about women's health in the workplace,
10:40because we've got five generations in our workplace, as have many organisations.
10:45And what that's allowed us to do at the ADECO group is include all the generations. Because
10:51what I found when I initially started talking about menopause and then perimenopause as a topic,
10:58we kind of, it was impactful to probably 35 plus. Whereas if we talk about women's health in the
11:07workplace and we include period management, we include endometriosis, PMDD, polycystic ovaries,
11:16fertility, everything that goes with that, we're covering the whole life cycle through a woman's
11:23career, which I think is really important that we include that. And we've been able to do allyship
11:30programs and networks that align to all those different topics. So we've got like a new parents
11:39network. We've got a baby loss network, which is called Holding Hands. So we can have those groups
11:46of people that can share, provide allyship at all those different stages. And I think that is really
11:53important that organisations see that it's not just about menopause. It's not just about perimenopause.
12:00And also what I've witnessed over the last sort of 12 months, really, is it's very much about the
12:07intersectionality and the different experiences of different people going through it and how
12:14very, it's, everybody's journey is entirely different. We're all very different people.
12:19But overlaying that intersectionality across things like neurodiversity, you know, other illnesses and
12:27disabilities, culture, ethnicity, all of those different topics, create a completely different
12:35journey. So that's really important now that we talk about that as well.
12:38Fantastic. And how would you suggest that a manager kind of broach this subject? Say,
12:44you know, it's somebody who's not of that age category. Say it's a man who really wants to help
12:50and has the best intention, like your fan man, as I'll name him. How could they go about sort of
12:57putting this culture in place?
13:00I think it comes back to, and I have to say that in my experience, some men have been the
13:07best
13:07allies. They've been incredible. And I've done some safe space sessions that were men only. It is a
13:14polarising view for some organisations, but I've just found that it's really, really worked because
13:21in the research that I've done, a lot of male colleagues have said, not just in our organisation,
13:27but more broadly, we absolutely want to support. We absolutely want to be allies. We just don't
13:34want to say the wrong thing. So the education, those safe space conversations where they can
13:40ask anything and learn are really key. And then they feel more confident starting that conversation.
13:48I've mandated manager training as well, which means that all managers, regardless of age,
13:55demographic, et cetera, go on it to give them more confidence. But the actual opening up the
14:01conversation is really critical because we're empowering women to have that conversation.
14:07We have got to educate the people who are in receipt of that conversation, because if it gets
14:12closed down at that point, it never moves on and they don't get the support they need. So the education
14:19is super important. And then also around just sensible, empathetic listening where you would do it with
14:26any sensitive conversation. Don't do it at the coffee machine. Do it in a private space. Allow time
14:35for the conversation flow. Just ask the question as part of regular meetings, PDRs, that kind of event.
14:43You know, is there anything more I can do to support you? What else do you need? And allow that
14:49conversation. But without the culture, you will never get people to open up to feel that it's okay
14:55to say it without the cultural aspect of it. Yeah, absolutely. And do you think that always has to
15:00come from the top? I mean, could if an employee or somebody that has a workplace that isn't as
15:05progressive as the one that you've described and that, you know, with all the groups and the policy
15:10that you've introduced at ADECO, if they're watching this thinking, how can I advocate for
15:15myself? How could they help to bring about change within an organisation if they need that help?
15:22I think it comes both ways. I think leadership and sponsorship and support is incredibly important.
15:29It gets the conversation around the table at the top. But what really drives the movement and
15:36drives the conversation are the employee resource groups. And those are the people that start to
15:43move the conversation along. And opening up our conversation about menopause, introducing our
15:52policy back in 2021, has allowed us to open up the conversation about so many topics that we would
15:59never be able to bring. I've just come from an inclusion brunch about sobriety and people choosing
16:06to become sober for whatever reason in, you know, in a cultural norm where it is the norm to drink
16:15alcohol. And that's the first time we've ever started to tackle that topic and having different
16:21people's perspectives. You know, my perspective is that it's, you know, being post-menopausal,
16:27it's not, it's harder and harder to recover from, you know, going out for drinks and having a glass of
16:34wine. I will sacrifice a night's sleep. And I don't want to do that. I can't afford to do that
16:38at the
16:38moment. So that's, that's my choice. But opening up that conversation and starting to get other
16:45people's perspectives, that's something that I don't think a couple of years ago, we would have been
16:50able to do. And our next steps are, you know, to really focus on providing alternatives in the
16:56workplace, etc. But that is employee driven. So I think the importance having leadership, sponsorship
17:03and leadership conversation and buy-in, but the employee resource groups are equally as important.
17:11And then that snowball effect about how once you start to open up this conversation, actually,
17:18everybody else is feeling like that too. Everybody is bringing something to work that is having an
17:24impact on their day to day life. Yes, and making that a safe space to open up those conversations
17:30is so powerful. Now, of course, you know, there are plenty of things that we can do as we've just
17:36been discussing within the workplace and start to advocate for ourselves as well as employees.
17:41But what about a grassroots level? So tackling what the government is going to put in place to
17:47support women at this stage of life? And your role sounds brilliant. It's a voluntary role
17:51at the government. And what is your vision towards menopause in the workplace? And how do you envisage
17:58getting there? So I've just I've just launched my six month report. And it's just been signed off by
18:05government at the moment, and launched the four point plan and last week, so I can share that with
18:12you. So the four point plan is really to get employers to share their best practice and signpost
18:20other employers who probably aren't at the same point in their journey, or they don't have the
18:25resource to be able to do it. So it's taking away that competitive advantage and looking at five key
18:33sectors that we've chosen collectively with government and myself. They are retail, hospitality,
18:41care, manufacturing and professional and technical. I'm also working as a bit of a side project
18:47in education because 98% of staff in primary education, not just teachers are female. So it's
18:56really important. It's a non autonomous role. So really important we consider that as well. But
19:01the five key sectors, and I had a cross sector roundtable last week with representation from all
19:09the sector bodies and large employers from each of those sectors. They've all come together and said,
19:15we're doing some good stuff, but we are conscious that SME organisations may not have access to this.
19:22And my strategy is that it's for all women everywhere, regardless of socio economic background,
19:29regardless of the type of employer they work for, and regardless of their race and ethnicity. So it's
19:35very, very intersectional. And I don't want any woman to think they have to leave their job
19:41because they're not getting the support that they need. So the five sectors will set up working parties
19:48that I'm just about to do as an output of the cross sector roundtable, supported by those sector
19:54bodies. And they will share on the government's help to grow portal, their best practice, what they've
20:00done that's really worked for them, who they've engaged with and how that supported their business.
20:04And then any employer or employee can get access to that to be able to support them.
20:11The second aspect of it is a national allyship programme, which again will be sector specific.
20:17And that's because I've spoken to women who've worked in SMEs in different sectors,
20:22who have said to me, I've got nobody to talk to, I can't start a conversation with my line manager,
20:29because he's a different demographic, you know, different age, etc, etc. And I feel like I'm
20:36going to have to leave because I work in a small hotel on the south coast, and I've nobody to
20:41talk
20:41to. So what the national allyship programme will do is link them up with somebody in a large hotel
20:47who's doing great stuff, and they've got somebody to talk to. The third aspect of it is encouraging as
20:54many organisations as we possibly can to sign the menopause workplace pledge, which is a key aspect
21:02of it for me, because I want women, as I said earlier, to be able to make informed choice about
21:08their place of work. I know that 3,000 organisations have already signed it, and I'm sure we can get
21:14more
21:15to do that. But I also want it to be important for women who are considering coming back into the
21:21workplace after a period of time out of work. That's important because there are 630,000 women
21:28between 45 and 55 claiming universal credit. And I know if you're out of work for a period of time,
21:36there are barriers to coming back. And I don't want being perimenopausal or menopausal to be another
21:42barrier. And the last aspect of it is how we get the message out there to employers and employees.
21:50And I'm working with some key strategic partners who are helping me to, you know, I am one person,
21:56as we said, but I've got six strategic partners who are really helping me with that messaging,
22:04the wellbeing of women being one of those partners. So I'm very, very grateful to them and the sector
22:10bodies for supporting the work that I'm doing.
22:13Yeah, well, that is definitely giving me a lot of hope. It sounds fantastic. What is your
22:19plan on timescale with this? You submit the report, and then what happens?
22:26So kicked off the round table, so the portal exists anyway, so it's adding to the portal,
22:32and that will start adding to that for World Menopause Day. The allyship programme,
22:38my plan is to have that live by International Women's Day.
22:44Which is March next year.
22:46It is, yeah. The pledge aspect of it is ongoing. And obviously, the communication strategy is
22:52ongoing as well.
22:54And how will you ensure that sort of diverse voices and communities are included in this proposal?
23:00Well, I'm, as I said, it's for everybody everywhere. I'm very conscious that there was a lot of
23:05narrative last year about menopause being a white middle class privilege, and I absolutely
23:15don't want that to be the case moving forward, which is why I'm delighted that I'm doing this role
23:21on a voluntary basis, because it means that I get the opportunity in the platform to advocate for
23:27women who don't have the voice, or they don't have the confidence, or they just don't have the
23:33space in their will to do that. And I'm working with a lot of different community groups to ensure
23:40that that intersectionality is a key part of the work.
23:45Yeah, great. So that we can support all women in this. I mean, I think the allyship programme
23:51sounds really good as well. What about, so we've got companies signing up to the Menopause Workplace
23:56Pledge Pledge, which is brilliant. So we are, as you said, about 3000 companies still hopefully got
24:01further to go. What about an accreditation system? So once companies are sort of opening themselves up
24:09to being menopause friendly workplaces, can you see a sort of place for an accreditation system?
24:16I absolutely can. And I think what I, to ensure that intersectionality and inclusivity,
24:22what I didn't say, that everything on the portal will be free and accessible to employers and
24:29employees. So obviously to sign the Menopause Workplace Pledge is entirely free for an organisation.
24:35If they choose to then go on and move forward to accreditation, that obviously is their choice,
24:42but that could be linked to budget, etc. So I don't want it to be a barrier to organisations
24:49doing good work to support employees and attract new employees. I don't want that financial aspect
24:56of it to be a barrier. So everything at that point of entry is completely free of charge because
25:03if you're an SME, you may not have the budget for the full accreditation. So absolutely is the next step.
25:09Large organisations, that would be relatively seamless in terms of next steps. But with regards to the
25:17government strategy, that is obviously the choice, the choice of the SME.
25:22Yeah. Oh, fantastic, Helen. This sounds really brilliant. And it's definitely an optimistic
25:28outlook. Are there any other sort of key tips that you would like to get across to any other
25:33employees who have signed the pledge, thinking about setting up a policy and groups we've talked
25:39about? Are there any other things that they could start to put in place today?
25:42I think the key thing is the leadership buy-in, the drive from employees, the education,
25:50the allyship. And if you do those two things, if you start the conversation, and obviously no better
25:57time than coming up to World Menopause Day to start that conversation, you build your policy,
26:03but don't just land your policy and not have anything after that. Because ultimately,
26:08it's a PDF, it's a document. And if somebody comes to you and says, I need to see the menopause
26:16policy, actually, it means that you've failed really, because you should be creating an organisation
26:22where the policy is the last resort. So if somebody came to me now and said, I want to invoke
26:29the
26:29menopause policy, I would feel like I'd hugely failed. Because I believe at the ADECO group,
26:35we've created an environment, a cultural norm environment, where people feel comfortable
26:44being themselves in the workplace. And that's really important.
26:48That was really interesting. Thank you very much. We look forward to seeing your plans come to
26:54fruition. And the portal, the allyship sounds fantastic too. So thank you for sharing your
27:00story with me today. And happy World Menopause Day and month to you. And to you too.
Comments