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LearningTranscript
00:12Hello, everybody, here is Michael from New Left, and today we will have an interesting
00:17discussion with one of the most important people in Europe who are running unions.
00:25Oli, can you please introduce yourself, who you are, what you do, how you came to this
00:29seat of yours with a nice head-bombing device on your back. So, who are you?
00:38Well, thank you, first of all, for the invitation, and it's a really pleasure to just have a chat.
00:44My name is Oliver Rotik. I'm the regional secretary, which is effectively the general
00:49secretary of Uni Europa, and Uni Europa, again, is the European Services Workers Union. We represent
00:557 million workers across Europe, and across Europe means really across entire Europe plus
01:03the Middle East. And our sectors are ranging from commerce, post, media, gambling, so casinos
01:11we have as well, we have hairdressers, we have the ICTS sector, and we have the finance sector.
01:16So, all together, we are 14 sectors that we organize. My background...
01:23Sorry, sorry. Is it safe to say that you are the most influential trade unionist in Europe?
01:29I don't know. But still, it's like purely from the position where you are standing, and the power, and the
01:39decisions that you are making with your colleagues, obviously. I hope it's a democracy, but still, is there someone with
01:48bigger muscles than you are?
01:50Definitely, there are. I mean, certainly, of course, Uni Europa is a European trade union federation, which means we are
01:57a group bringing together national affiliates. And of course, the main part of the work of the trade unions is
02:06happening at the national level. Our industrial relations systems are still in the first place, based nationally.
02:12And at a European level, Uni Europa is one of the European trade union federations, and the European trade union
02:19federations...
02:19The biggest one, as far as I know, huh?
02:23Depends how you count. So, we have three big ones, which is one for manufacturing, one for public services, and
02:29then us for the services sector. These are the big and also with extent the biggest.
02:36What is, of course, true, we all have our strengths in the process, and the key point is pulling our
02:43strengths and moving in one direction.
02:45And as we are the sectoral organization as European trade union federations, we, of course, have also the European trade
02:52union confederation. So, the national umbrella, the European umbrella organization.
02:58And that is, of course, the organization to go to when we talk about EU legislation in the first place.
03:06And there, we are part of the European trade union confederation, the ETUC, and there, of course, is, let's say,
03:11our political strengths.
03:12But at the same time, as Uni Europa, and that is the same for the other European trade union federations,
03:18key aspects of our work is really strengthening the bargaining power of our affiliates, and that is a key role.
03:24When we look at industrial relations, and we do this through working together with affiliates on organizing, with our relationships
03:32with multinational companies, with global agreement, we are involved in hundreds of European works councils.
03:38That is where we basically, that is where we basically concretely create countervailing power for our trade unions.
03:44And then, of course, together with the ETUC and other actors here at the European level, we want to make
03:49sure that really EU politics serves the workers and doesn't do the opposite, which is always a very difficult struggle.
03:59Okay. So, the reason why I'm asking exactly the structure that you were describing now,
04:04because many people in Europe and, let's say, really many people in Europe don't really know how unions are structured
04:12and who actually holds the rails and who has the power and who makes the decision and so on.
04:19So, it's safe to say that you are one of the rail holders and one of the people who can
04:27structure the whole edifice of,
04:30well, what is it, 20 million people that are organizing in unions in Europe, as far as I know.
04:36Oh, yep. We have over 40 million.
04:3840 million. There you go. Even I don't know this.
04:42Mea culpa.
04:45Yes. Obviously, the trade unions are democratic organizations.
04:48So, I'm the general secretary, the head of the secretariat, we have a president, we have an executive board, and,
04:55of course, the decisions are done by our decision-making bodies, and we execute them.
05:00But, of course, we also have a key role in preparing decisions.
05:04And for UniEuropa, which is very special in comparison to our sister organizations, UniEuropa is also part of UniGlobal.
05:12That is a global trade union federation, and we work very closely together, so there's a lot of work happening,
05:19especially when we look at multinational companies, but also at organizing.
05:23So, the point is, yes, I have a role to play, but it's a role among many, and the key
05:30point is both within the secretariat, at European level, but also at global level, but also with our affiliates.
05:38It's a key point is working as a team, and that is the same when we work together with the
05:42other European trade union federations and the European trade union confederation.
05:47So, thank you.
05:48I wasn't suggesting that there is some autocratic going on.
05:51I just wanted to make it clear that you are one of the, in the higher echelons of the whole
05:57structure, and that leads me to the first proper question, because you have the, one can say, bird's view.
06:04Yeah, you see it from, from the top, you are not on the ground, but someone has to be on
06:08the top, someone has to be on the ground.
06:10So, how do you see post-communistic countries from, from your position?
06:15So, you are in Brussels, you, you see the whole picture of European Union and of all of Europe as
06:21such, and roughly 100 million people out of this 450 million that are in European Union are coming from post
06:28-communistic countries.
06:29So, well, it's not nothing, and the situation of unions in our part of the European Union isn't exactly rosy,
06:38and that was the main reason for me to have this discussion, to, to see your point of view, how
06:44you see it, what you think is working, what you think, well, has a room for improvement, and, you know,
06:51pick your brain a little bit.
06:52So, please, tell us.
06:55So, first of all, I mean, the situation is not rosy.
06:59Anywhere.
07:00Or anywhere in Europe.
07:02Except for Iceland.
07:04Iceland is doing fine.
07:06Iceland is a very small country, and I'm also very happy there, especially this year, we gained some new affiliates
07:11from Iceland, and some others increased their membership substantially.
07:16Iceland can't grow anymore, because you can't grow about hundreds.
07:21Well, that's not quite true.
07:23I mean, I always remember the story of a Mexican state election where the governor won the election.
07:30Oh, yeah, he was 100% of the vote.
07:33Well, okay, records are made to be broken.
07:37But still, yeah, jokes aside.
07:39So, how do you see it?
07:41So, as I said, the situation is very difficult everywhere.
07:44I mean, we have challenges, and they are in the West as well as in the East.
07:49Look, for instance, when we look at politics.
07:52I mean, there is a real tendency to more far-right movements everywhere that questions not only the European Union,
08:01but also democracy itself.
08:03So, that's a challenge for the trade unions.
08:04And many of those who are supporting this are also coming from the trade union movement.
08:09So, that's a challenge for us.
08:12Especially Europe.
08:15We are also faced with global restructuring, the rise of AI and other changes.
08:23Well, I mean, rise of China, the behavior of the U.S., which really reflects the system that we have
08:29in Europe.
08:29So, we also see, and that's a challenge more for the West, that there is, of course, near-shoring.
08:36So, jobs are created in Eastern Europe, which is positive for Eastern Europe, but also puts strain on the system.
08:45Excuse me.
08:48So, that is a challenge.
08:49And on the other hand, I have to say, the Iron Curtain came down, what, 40 years ago, a bit
08:57more now.
08:58We are going towards 50 years.
09:00The challenge there is, I see light at the end of the tunnel, and it's not the intercity train coming
09:06our direction.
09:07We have really good work done in Romania, for instance, where we saw 15 years ago a government which basically
09:17destroyed collective bargaining at sectoral level, at multi-company level.
09:22And already 10 years ago, in one of the sectors, in the banking sector, we managed to bring, together with
09:30our unions there, sectoral collective bargaining back by really engaging with multinational companies and making sure that they say, we
09:39want to have agreements which are basically joint ones and apply to the major part of the sector.
09:46And then, with the help of the European Union, a couple of years ago, the EU insisted that Romanian law
09:54changes, being more positive for sectoral collective bargaining.
09:57And then, in the finance sector, and then in the insurance sector, we got the first real sectoral agreements for
10:02Romania again.
10:04And they were ergo omnis.
10:07That said, that's a positive part of the story.
10:09And now we see a counter-push by the government and by some companies to roll us back.
10:15So, it's a constant struggle.
10:17But what I see, whether in the West or in the East, we have now a new generation who clearly
10:23see, if we don't work together, as workers, as trade unions, we have a problem.
10:30So, I think there's a shift.
10:32Let's be honest as well.
10:34When we started, many trade unions in Central and Eastern Europe were basically seen as a continuation of the communist
10:41regime.
10:42And trade unions are there to do what the government does and organize holidays.
10:47I'm just very polemic there.
10:49Not so much.
10:50It's true, Oli.
10:51It's true.
10:53I live there.
10:54I know.
10:56Look, and it's totally polemic.
10:58And, you know, it's used by politicians and employers to keep us small.
11:02But I think this feeling is changing.
11:04So, there are more and more pockets which get bigger where people actually organize.
11:09We have two organizing centers as Union Europa, one for Central Europe in Warsaw, and we have another one for
11:17Southeast Europe in Bucharest in Romania.
11:21So, we are trying really to work on it.
11:24We have now a policy, a strategic policy.
11:28What we want to implement over this, our Congress period, over the next four or five years, is really looking
11:35at a number of countries.
11:37And in those countries, trying to build up a critical mass of sectoral collective bargaining.
11:42How do we want to do this?
11:43As I said, we want to choose in Europe three countries.
11:47And in each of them, we want to try to organize in three sectors.
11:51So, in three of our services sector, get together there with the unions there, build up the union strengths in
11:58terms of organizing and their collective bargaining capacity.
12:01But also use our influence as a European trade union movement to push the multinational companies in the sector to
12:08actually go towards sectoral collective bargaining.
12:12As well as trying to influence the political environment through leverage we have with the European Union.
12:19But also, the government say we need laws which really promote collective bargaining, strengthen collective bargaining at the national level.
12:26So, we have a big campaign here at European level, which is no public contract without collective agreement.
12:32We started this in 2021.
12:34And now we are in the process of changing the European legislation on this.
12:39And one of our key demands is it has to be going to happen or it's in the making and
12:44it's unsure whether it's going to happen.
12:46Because this is a good news if it happens.
12:51I know you don't have crystal ball, but, you know, what your gut feeling is telling you, you are swimming
12:56in those waterfalls for some time.
12:58So, you see a little bit what's going on.
13:02With our campaign and really what the trade unions have done, what the trade unions have put forward, but not
13:06only the trade unions, also the employers.
13:08I mean, from our sectors, the industrial cleaning sector and the private security sector is a particular concern, but also
13:16from one of our sister organizations, the catering service.
13:20They are concerned and they were working closely together with the employers who also say, if we don't get collective
13:27bargaining as a standard, it means that the lowest price will succeed.
13:32And we get robber barons and cowboy companies undermining the quality and the services of the market.
13:39And that's not only a question of workers' rights and the well-being of workers.
13:43That is also a question of the competitiveness of the market, of the fairness of the market, because companies get
13:51the contract with uncompetitive behavior, undercutting really wages and prices.
13:57And then we have a situation where some big companies are saying, we are no longer applying for contracts in
14:03the public sector because the quality we want to provide, we can't in a system like it is today.
14:09And when they can't provide the quality, that also means that the level of services that the customers, the citizens
14:15get, is getting lower.
14:17So you have alliances even on the other side of the, okay, no, that looks promising.
14:24That's one of the things where we really can see we are making progress and it's not only us.
14:29And one of the key points is, too often the discussion is the trade unions against the rest of the
14:35world.
14:35And that's not the case.
14:37We are trade unions.
14:39We are social partners.
14:40We are the two sides of industry.
14:42And, of course, as trade unions, we have an interest that jobs are safe, that the economy and the business
14:48flourishes, and we want to organize this.
14:50And as trade unions, our clear conviction is the best way to do this is employers and trade unions, workers
14:57working together and making sure that the company, that the industry is successful.
15:02And, quite frankly, take the example of artificial intelligence.
15:07At European level, we have legislation on artificial intelligence, which will take about seven years until it is implemented.
15:16So everybody knows nowadays seven years for artificial intelligence.
15:20Dinosaurs are alive still.
15:22Okay.
15:23Yeah.
15:23So legislation doesn't work in this respect.
15:26And Europe, Europe as a whole, has a competitive advantage to China and the U.S.
15:32We have social dialogue.
15:34We have collective bargaining.
15:35And they're in a very incremental fashion, certainly for the workplace, but I think also for business, because, you know,
15:42the asset of a company are their workers.
15:44They are the knowledges.
15:45We can work together in making sure that we really manage artificial intelligence in time, in a timely way, and
15:54making sure if there are changes incrementally, we change too.
15:58Legislation doesn't work in this way.
16:00So there you see.
16:01I mean, in this perspective, we really can make progress, Australians, and that is true for Central and Eastern Europe
16:07as much as it is for Western Europe.
16:10In Central and Eastern Europe, we have many call centers, contact centers.
16:14We have back offices for IT.
16:16So many of the workers, they are at the forefront of the services sectors, services industries in Europe.
16:23So there is a potential.
16:25And also what is quite clearly in the West, but also in the East, colleagues, workers want hope.
16:34And they are more and more pissed off that this hope is denied to them, and they are ready to
16:39fight together.
16:40And what has to be clear as well, and we shouldn't forget this, 150 years ago, when the trade union
16:47movement was founded, we didn't have any rights.
16:50The employers were firing anyone who tried to organize.
16:55The government were shooting us, sending us to prison, and we managed to build up a forceful trade union movement.
17:02But, and that we have to recognize, a fight is a fight.
17:06So somebody gets hurt.
17:08And I think the readiness in the situation we have now is much bigger than it was years ago, because
17:14we have our strength, and we can use our strengths.
17:18And when we stick together, we will succeed.
17:21The situation is more dire than 10 or 20 years ago.
17:25Everyone sees that, no?
17:26So, yeah, certain steps can be taken that were unthinkable 10 or 20 years ago, I guess.
17:33Precisely.
17:34And people have the feeling much more than before that it's unfair.
17:38When you look at the changes in equality in our societies, it's going apart.
17:44And that is something which really annoys workers, everyone, even monkeys.
17:51There's this really nice video of monkeys, one getting a strawberry, the other one gets a cucumber.
17:58And the first time he's irritated, the second time he's very irritated.
18:02Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah.
18:03Devil research is very important.
18:05Yeah, people should know this.
18:06This is in our genes, no?
18:08Fairness.
18:09And that is precisely why I see light at the end of the tunnel.
18:15And the end of the tunnel is coming forward because people know together they can make a difference.
18:21And there is no reason to accept injustice that we get more and more here.
18:26Okay, thank you.
18:27Another question I wanted to ask you, because I asked the same question, Christy Hoffman, a few months back when
18:34we were doing the interview, is the, I call it legacy model of the post-European unions.
18:42That is the 70-30 model, because, as you were alluding to a few minutes back, that the old unions
18:50back then, 30 years ago, when Iron Curtain fell, were full of communists.
18:56And there was a lot of distrust everywhere.
18:59And out of this distrust, as far as I know, the 70-30 model emerged so that the model is
19:07different in post-communistic countries as in the West,
19:11where in the West, the union, the association gets 100% of the money, whereas here in post-communistic countries,
19:17only 30% of the money goes to the association and 70%, roughly now, it's roughly 70% states on
19:25the floor of that concrete union.
19:27So we have a plethora of small unions with a little bit money in their bank accounts, but it's not
19:33centralized as in other Western European countries.
19:36And now the question is, do you know about this model and how you see it?
19:41Because when I was talking with Christy, she was very explicit that this is, in the long run, not sustainable,
19:47and this is not the way how to done things.
19:50But this is the, as I call it, legacy model of post-communistic countries for the last 30-something years.
19:57And we have to kind of go around it or do something with it.
20:02And I'm curious, what is your take on what to do with it, no?
20:08So, first of all, when you have basically company unions, of course, the challenge is they are much more dependent
20:15as a company union on the company's management.
20:19And, of course, within one company, the company has some leverage.
20:23I mean, not least, you know, the people they like, they can support more, get them better jobs and other
20:29things.
20:31And so having a very confrontational style is also very difficult for the company union.
20:38One of the advantages of having these sectoral multi-company unions is there is space between the workers and the
20:49organization on the ground and the union.
20:53So when you go into conflict, it's more neutral.
20:55It's less personal because there's more distance in there.
20:59What is also clear, one of the challenges in Central and Eastern Europe,
21:06if the federation is basically not doing anything except coming back to doing some tourism and stuff like this,
21:14making some political presentation.
21:15So why should you pay money for that?
21:18So what is basically the action they do to advance your interest as a worker, as a company union?
21:24And they are also looking at some examples in Central and Eastern Europe.
21:28So if we use the federation, which makes much more sense, as an actor to enhance organizing,
21:41upskilling the workforce, the trade unionists in a company,
21:45and also seeing we have a strategy to come to sectoral collective bargaining, which basically sets a floor,
21:52then we have actually good arguments that we bring companies to say it actually makes sense to pay more for
21:59this.
21:59And then we have to see what the model is.
22:01But I mean, in many of the West European countries, of course,
22:04you have a situation where you don't have company trade union structures whatsoever.
22:07You just have a union for the sector or multi-sectors.
22:11And there, basically, the work is done.
22:14But it's all even in when I look, I'm German.
22:16When I look at Germany, you, of course, in an ideal way, have a trade union representation in the company.
22:23And, of course, they have a specific role.
22:25But it's really the key point, the key strength of trade unions is aggregating the views of the workers
22:32and trying together to create a win-win situation for everyone.
22:37Because otherwise, if your company is doing well, then you get probably higher wages than other companies.
22:45If suddenly it doesn't do well, you suddenly get sacked.
22:50And there is no real balancing.
22:52So going for the company model is basically going for we go with a day.
22:58If it's good, it's good.
22:59It's bad, it's bad.
23:00Whereas if you have a sectoral model, you balance it out.
23:03So it's do you have erratic changes or you're more like a big tanker ship going straight away
23:10and it takes much more time to change?
23:13And what do we want to do this?
23:14We want to have this, you know, this solid way forward,
23:19but also bringing in enough flexibility that we can really act to react to changes that are happening in the
23:26world.
23:26And this leads to another question because, okay, we spoke about it.
23:31Sectoral bargaining in post-communistic countries isn't exactly easy exactly because of this model,
23:36because it's so divided and so spread out that, you know, there is no sectoral bargaining basically in most countries.
23:43But as far as I know, the 80% thing is coming from European Union.
23:50I don't know when, next year, two years, you know, it's still a little bit hazy,
23:56but still there is certain push to bargain more.
24:00Yeah.
24:00And this opens the window in my eyes.
24:03And that's the question to change something about the structure in post-communistic countries,
24:07because when there is this push to bargain more,
24:11well, sectoral bargaining looks like the easier way for everyone to do it,
24:15because you do one bargaining instead of 17 or whatever.
24:19So actually, it saves money to everyone.
24:21So how do you see it?
24:24Is there a way how to kind of use the leverage of this new incentive
24:29for, how to put it, from European Union to change something about post-communistic countries?
24:34Because for 30 years, more or less nothing changed.
24:38But this is one of the biggest changes, I guess,
24:41mainly for post-communistic countries,
24:43because we are so low in the bargaining perception or penetration
24:50that the changes will be huge if it comes.
24:54And it looks like it's going to come.
24:56So it's already the law.
24:58So the law is part of the minimum wage directive,
25:03that is minimum wage legislation, which was adopted at European level.
25:08And it requires countries who do not have collective bargaining coverage of 80%
25:15to come up with a national action plan built together with the social partners.
25:22The European Trade Union Confederation, the ETUC, and UniEuropa
25:25were, I think, the key players in really pushing this forward from the trade union side.
25:30And I think it's a major success for us.
25:34And we are now in the process of getting national action plans in countries.
25:39Not everyone has them now.
25:41But we are looking at this after the summer break.
25:45We will publish a first assessment.
25:47What do the national action plans at the national level say?
25:50So that we can learn from each other.
25:52Already before this legislation was coming out, UniEuropa conducted research.
25:59We went to all of the European countries and asked an industrial relation expert
26:05from your perspective in your country.
26:10What are the obstacles to multi-company sectoral collective bargaining?
26:14And what are the ways you promote sectoral collective bargaining in your country?
26:20Or you could think you can do this.
26:22And as a follow-up, and we have basically a big 300-page summary document on this
26:27and a summary collection of the different reports,
26:31but also a summary document and actually a card game
26:34where we give suggestions what could be done.
26:38And what was very interesting in the seminars we organized afterwards,
26:43that when a union from a specific country looks at it,
26:47they have a certain framework how they want to promote collective bargaining.
26:52And when you get somebody else from another country,
26:54they have different ideas because the systems are different.
26:57And then suddenly the first union said,
27:00oh, we never really thought about it, but let's try it.
27:03And that is the strength of the European trade union movement,
27:05getting these ideas together.
27:07And really something you haven't thought about
27:10because it's not straightforward in your own national setting.
27:14Suddenly you might see the light and might try it.
27:17And one of the key points what we see all over Europe is
27:22when we look at organizing,
27:24so recruiting, strengthening the trade union base,
27:26making activists in the union.
27:29This element too often is still separate from the collective bargaining dimension.
27:35So we have to work closely together.
27:37And that is one of the key plans of UniEuropa's activities.
27:42When we talk about organizing and collective bargaining,
27:45the two things belong together.
27:48The aim of a trade union has to be to get a collective agreement,
27:52and it has to be ideally to get a collective agreement within the sector.
27:56That brings fairness and more equality in there and also strengthens our power as trade unions.
28:03But for that, we also need a strong basis.
28:05So we have to invest in our members, make them activists.
28:08But the aim is always we want to get a collective bargaining.
28:12And obviously, as we are just talking about the minimum wage directive,
28:16the 80% target of the European Union,
28:19we also need the political backing.
28:21So our key priority as UniEuropa is strengthening the collective bargaining power of our affiliates.
28:27And we do this first, bottom up, by strengthening the organizing capacity,
28:33the capacity of union members standing together to fight for collective bargaining.
28:38It's secondly, top down, creating at the European, but also at the national level,
28:44a framework which is conducive in terms of politics and legislation for collective bargaining.
28:50And the third element for UniEuropa is quite clearly working together,
28:54putting pressure on multinational companies so that they are agents of collective bargaining
28:58wherever they operate and not only in the home country.
29:01And the colleagues from Central and Eastern Europe know this better than I do,
29:05how different multinational companies act in the Western home country and they do in Central and Eastern.
29:12Amen to that.
29:13The last question is the 80% and the future of that endeavor.
29:19So now we have 2026.
29:21So what is your hope slash gut feeling slash optimism slash pessimism telling you?
29:27So when we will reach this threshold in post-communistic Europe?
29:32So in the lowest organizing part of European Union?
29:37Is it one year, five years, ten years?
29:40Never.
29:41What do you, what do you, what do you, what do you, what do you, I'm not, I don't want
29:44you to make any promises.
29:46I just want you an honest answer that, yeah, maybe a number.
29:51I think it's a, it's a wrong question.
29:54I mean, the question is not 80%.
29:56I mean, when I say what number I want, I want 100% collective bargaining coverage for everyone.
30:02So the point is...
30:04Yeah, but the 80% is the call out for the implementation.
30:08So that's like, that's the goal point or the not stuff or, you know.
30:14But the point is, for me, it's important not to reach the 80%.
30:1880% for me is that we make advances, that every year we get more people covered by collective bargaining
30:24and certainly can combat that collective bargaining coverage is falling every year.
30:29And in many countries it does more.
30:32So we just have to stabilize.
30:33And that means we have to work on strengthening the collective bargaining power.
30:37Whether it is in a country 1%, 2%, 3%, 40%, I don't care.
30:43We have to move forward.
30:44We have to be the trade union movement.
30:46And when I talk about this, and I, we didn't really mention this in our discussion, I also want to
30:53come back to the point of the rise of the far right of anti-democratic forces throughout Europe.
31:00I'm convinced as a trade unionist, but also as a Democrat, collective bargaining is key for democracy, because democracy is
31:08about finding compromise.
31:10And collective bargaining is about compromise.
31:13You might know this, many of the listeners might know it, how difficult it is to get the trade union
31:19members together and agree on a position for the negotiations.
31:23You have to come and compromise.
31:24Difference, the opinion of different workforces in the sector are different.
31:30So you have to come up with a compromise.
31:32And then obviously, when you have the compromise, when you have your position for the negotiations, you have to go
31:37to the employers.
31:37And obviously, the employers say, oh, great, you made a compromise, so we agree with your compromise.
31:42So there will be another compromise.
31:44And then for the trade unions, the leaders would deal with the negotiations.
31:48They have to go back to the members and explain to them that, sorry, the compromise we reached among ourselves
31:53is not the one that is possible with employers.
31:56That's democracy, making this process that we actually understand that we can't get what we want, even if we compromise
32:04among ourselves, it's always a give and take.
32:07That's democracy.
32:08And for this, the best way where people, colleagues can experience this, it's actually being involved in participatory collective bargaining,
32:17where they have a say, because otherwise you vote every four years or so for your national parliament with collective
32:24bargaining.
32:24That's a process which is regularly happening.
32:27You have to make decisions with the workforce together on issues in terms of trade union representation, workers' representation in
32:36the sector or in the company.
32:38That is where you basically are using your democratic rights much more intensively than you would do in politics by
32:47voting and elections.
32:49Okay.
32:50Thank you very much, Oliver.
32:51So we were aiming for half an hour.
32:53So I think this is it.
32:54So I hope till next time, yeah, I hope that this was just one of many discussions we will be
33:01have during the next few years, because, well, I don't plan to get sick and die.
33:07And hopefully you will live for 80, as you said, your mother is.
33:11So happy day, stay healthy and till next time.
33:15Thank you very much.
33:16It was a pleasure.
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