- 3 minutes ago
In the latest episode of In The Room, we pick apart what Andy Burnham's appointments tell us about the government he wants to lead, who has emerged with real power, who has been cast aside, and whether the promises he's making now are ones he can actually keep.
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00:00I think we have a quick confession.
00:02I'm not sure Ed Miliband is one of nature's foreign secretaries.
00:05Andy Burnham has spoken to President Trump himself and he's invited Donald Trump to Manchester.
00:10We've got a new Prime Minister. His name is Andy Burnham.
00:13Yes, we witnessed the now all too familiar pageantry of a Prime Minister's arrival.
00:18Burnham entered via Buckingham Palace's rather unglamorous luggage door due to building work
00:24and then met the king in the Chinese dining room.
00:26Have you got a luggage door in your new house?
00:29I barely have a door.
00:31So Andy Burnham, the new Prime Minister, delivered his meticulously memorised speech to the press pack.
00:36A huge number of guests in Downing Street and the nation.
00:39Not from a lectern, but before a simple, humble microphone stand.
00:43He's already lost his first job, which is lectern guy. We're mourning him.
00:47Where is he today? Where is he now?
00:50So in all seriousness though, today we're going to talk about Andy Burnham's top cabinet picks,
00:55his first day or two in office and how he has hit the ground running.
00:58I'm Cleo Watson, a former special advisor to Theresa May and Boris Johnson.
01:02I'm Helen McNamara. It says on the piece of paper in front of me that I was the former Deputy
01:06Prime Minister.
01:07Rest assured, I was not. I was though the former Deputy Cabinet Secretary.
01:11And this is In The Room.
01:14I think we have a quick confession to make because people who listened to our last episode might recall that
01:19we very comfortably...
01:21We strongly backed. We had a lot of confidence.
01:23Yet again, we need to get Shibana Mahmood's name out of our mouths because we very confidently predicted that she
01:29would be Chancellor.
01:30Is she the Chancellor, Cleo?
01:32She is not. She is not. But can I just say, a couple of weeks ago, you did say, Helen,
01:37that it would be a shame to move Shibana Mahmood from the Home Office because she's doing such a good
01:43job.
01:43And if she were replaced by anybody, it would be John Healy, in your view.
01:47So you've got them slightly muddled up.
01:50But like, I say pretty good. We got closer than anybody else. So there.
01:55Also worth saying, there are a lot of extremely happy civil servants in the Home Office today who were desperate
02:01to keep Shibana Mahmood.
02:02Yeah, because she's doing a really good job. But also, wouldn't it be lovely to keep the same consistent Secretary
02:07of State in place?
02:09I mean, one thing I will say is hats off to the Burnham team because so many of those Cabinet
02:14appointments yesterday did actually feel like a big reveal.
02:16People were very confused when Ed Miliband and Shibana Mahmood, who were tipped to be, both of them were tipped
02:23to be Chancellor, walked up the street together.
02:25That was very cute. I enjoyed the, you know.
02:27They practically held hands.
02:28That I did not enjoy. Game recognises game though, right? And they're kind of the two of them walking up
02:33the street together. I was like, chapeau.
02:35You love a sequencing job.
02:37I do love that. I think that there was some highs and some lows about the Cabinet appointments yesterday.
02:43So I think overall, I'd give them a six out of ten. No more than that.
02:46Because there are some downsides, I would say.
02:48Okay. Would you want to start with a bit of positivity on a Tuesday morning, which is when we record?
02:54Or do you want to start with your low points work to build on?
02:57Let's start with the good. Let's start with the good.
03:00So, yeah, nice move getting Shibana Mahmood and Ed Miliband to walk up the street together.
03:04They did eventually get them all out towards the end of the evening.
03:08Quite late though, that's one of my downsides, is for something that has been planned for some time, it was,
03:14and there's a Cabinet meeting this morning,
03:15it was quite late to finally confirm everybody.
03:19And there was very clearly some sort of internal scuffling about what would happen to Rachel Reeves.
03:24And I imagine that accounts for the delay.
03:27Yeah, so the rumour is that she was offered Defence Secretary, which she turned down,
03:32which I think seems blindingly obvious, so she'd have had to turn it down,
03:35because she'd just refused a load of defence funding.
03:38You can't take on a job where you're sort of kneecapped from the get-go.
03:42But our old friend, Wes Streeting, got the job instead.
03:46Lucky old Wes.
03:47But he'd been tipped to not get a job.
03:49Indeed, I think I advised on this podcast that I wouldn't give him one.
03:52No offence, Wes.
03:54Now that you're in charge of the armed forces, please don't come after me.
03:57But I talked about when Theresa May, when she won the leadership contest in 2016,
04:04cast your minds back, everybody, she had the option to not give Michael Gove a job.
04:09And she decided not to.
04:11She put him on the back benches because he'd sort of got the ball rolling.
04:14He'd quote-unquote knifed Boris Johnson in the back, that kind of thing.
04:19And he was seen as a troublemaker, effective, but a troublemaker.
04:22And he just had a little cooling time.
04:25Not the case for Wesley Snipes on this occasion.
04:28No.
04:29And so he's at defence.
04:31And John Healy is now the Chancellor.
04:33So one of the many things I'm looking forward to is watching John Healy,
04:36former Defence Secretary, who resigned on principle because the defence budget was not funded enough,
04:42obviously having to write a massive cheque to the MOD.
04:45So there's a world in which this is extremely clever politics from the Burnham team,
04:49where they've put John Healy, he has to make the really hard choices now,
04:54because there isn't free or magic money.
04:56So to fund the defence budget to the level at which he is already on the record as saying needs
05:02to happen,
05:03he's either got to climb down from that, and he's got to swallow it,
05:06and all of that will be on his head, not the new Prime Minister's head.
05:09Nice move.
05:10Or he's got to, his new colleagues will find out that actually John Healy thinks that their budgets don't matter
05:16so much.
05:17So we'll have to see cuts in education and health and, you know,
05:21all those boring other things that actually also matter to the government funds.
05:24And he might have a crack at growing in the economy.
05:26Who knows?
05:27That'd be nice.
05:29How about some other moves that you liked, that you thought was positive?
05:34Well, I'm very happy to see Angela Rayner back in as the Secretary of State for Housing, Communities and Local
05:40Government.
05:40So that was the job that she had to resign from over her stamp duty issue last year.
05:45God, it feels like a million years ago.
05:47Only last year.
05:48And she will be delighted to be back.
05:50She said she has.
05:51There's a person who knows her brief.
05:53It's a really powerful and important one.
05:54And Andy Burnham said on the steps of Downing Street yesterday how important housing was.
05:58So that's a really big job.
06:00It's really great to see her back in the Cabinet.
06:02She will absolutely hit the ground running.
06:04And as Chairman of Shelter, you might get to talk to her a bit about homelessness, which is one of
06:09his core issues.
06:11Absolutely.
06:11And I mean, this is not, obviously, we are not a podcast that analyzes what women wear and don't wear
06:16and how they look.
06:17But she looked tremendous.
06:18Here we go.
06:19Well, only in a positive way.
06:20I thought she looked tremendous.
06:21She looked like she was walking into the party, like she was walking onto a yacht, literally, because it was
06:26kind of a sailor suit.
06:27I loved it.
06:28Yeah.
06:28And also the glasses.
06:30I'm not even sure she needs glasses, to be honest.
06:32I thought they might have been prop glasses.
06:33I loved it.
06:34I'm going to get some.
06:35Yeah, me too.
06:36Me too.
06:36All right.
06:36So why has he sacked so many Starmer loyalists?
06:39This is a big change.
06:40So the number of people that actually were moved out, cleared out the Starmer loyalists.
06:46He's created a lot of space for talent, I suppose the way that you'd say that, and was quite brutal
06:51about getting rid of people.
06:53So that's a positive sign on how much he means to get his government going and inspire loyalty.
06:59There was, is there 11 people sacked?
07:02The thing is, there are a few notable people who've stayed in.
07:05Yvette Cooper, she's now health secretary, which is funny to me.
07:07People keep talking about it as a demotion because she was foreign secretary, which is known as one of the
07:12great offices of state.
07:13But being in charge of the health service is no joke at the moment.
07:17It's the biggest employer in the Western world.
07:20I mean, that's not the foreign office.
07:21Even the mighty foreign office isn't quite that big.
07:24Yeah, no time for holiday yet, Yvette.
07:26And similarly, Ed Miliband has been promoted to foreign secretary.
07:32I'm not sure Ed Miliband is one of nature's foreign secretaries, I would say.
07:35You normally imagine somebody like super smooth and diplomatic.
07:39Like his brother.
07:40Exactly.
07:41Deeply experienced in foreign affairs.
07:43Yeah.
07:44I worked on the COP26 climate change summit in Glasgow.
07:47And Ed Miliband was Alok Sharma's sort of shadow on our negotiations and on net zero.
07:57And he was very good at challenging us and holding us to account.
08:01But he therefore has, in my experience, the kind of foreign affairs experience of being more of a rabble rouser
08:08and less of a diplomat.
08:10So he's met quite a lot of these people.
08:11But it's quite easy to be calling for change on climate action, for example, versus we have to get everybody
08:19around calmly and negotiate a bit better and do things in back rooms and be less kind of stylish and
08:28shouty.
08:29Yes. And one of our key relationships obviously remains the relationship with the US.
08:33And there has been much briefing against Ed Miliband from the Trump team.
08:38So whether that's a kind of deliberate power play by Andy Burnham, which is why I've put him there and
08:43you have to talk to him, don't really know, not sure.
08:46The other reason that you appoint people to foreign secretary, in my experience, is because you'd quite like them out
08:51of the country.
08:52So it's perfectly possible that actually what the Prime Minister thinks is great, fantastic.
08:57Of course, you can have a big job. I'll see you, I don't know, a couple of weeks in the
09:01autumn, maybe.
09:02Yes. And it's almost like there might be a vote on North Sea oil drilling that Ed Miliband probably won't
09:07want to attend.
09:08Could be at a very important summit somewhere in a different time zone.
09:12But Andy Burnham has spoken to President Trump himself and it sounds like he had a lovely chat and he's
09:18invited Donald Trump to Manchester.
09:20Really looking forward to that.
09:21Obviously, Manchester being our new capital.
09:24Trump's Manchester era is going to be amazing.
09:26And then, of course, Jonathan Reynolds, who was Keir Starmer's chief whip, is now business secretary.
09:31And, you know, if you if you are minded to wear a tinfoil hat and get very cross and and
09:38contrary about these kinds of things,
09:40if you are someone who has been ejected from government back to the back benches and some of your former
09:46colleagues have stayed there,
09:47perhaps even had promotions, you can feel a little bit conspiratorial about it.
09:53But, you know, John Healy is now chancellor, having resigned really, in many ways, the icing on the cake for
09:59Keir Starmer's premiership coming to an end.
10:02Or it's strongly rumoured that Yvette Cooper and Ed Miliband were some of the people that were saying to the
10:07prime minister and indeed Jonathan Reynolds as chief whip,
10:10it's time to go. And yet here they are with plum jobs.
10:13So I would have put Wes back in health. I think of the kind of things that I would have
10:17done differently.
10:18I think where streeting should have been made to go back to the Department of Health.
10:21There is an enormous piece of organisational change going on there, which he started, which is by name means finished.
10:27Having somebody who really knows what they're doing and has to kind of live with the consequences of their own
10:31decisions in that role would have been better.
10:33So I would have done that. And actually, I'd have quite liked to see Yvette Cooper's defence.
10:36She's like suitably stern, I think.
10:39Yes, she could wear a helmet quite easily.
10:42I think she'd look great.
10:42And also, she's already got the experience from the foreign affairs brief.
10:46So, yeah, I agree.
10:47I think that would have been a better strategic place to put her is take her from foreign office to
10:52defence.
10:52Let's put a pin in that and see where we end up in a year's time.
10:56Helen, in your old job, you did a lot of machinery of government changes,
11:01which means departments opening and closing and where power is going to be placed.
11:05There's been a bit of that going on, hasn't there?
11:07There has. We've had a department abolished at this reshuffle.
11:11So the Department for Science and Innovation and Technology,
11:13which was a creation of the Starmer government, has now been abolished.
11:17To some controversy, it should be said.
11:20Now, there are many reasons to abolish a department.
11:22Some of those reasons are nothing to do with politics and everything to do with the civil service.
11:26Industry, particularly people who care about AI and tech, have been really unhappy about the abolition of DCIT.
11:31My personal view is they abolished the wrong department.
11:33So what they've done is abolished DCIT and moved lots of the functions into the Department of Trade,
11:38the Department of Business and Trade.
11:40I would, controversial opinion, abolish the Department of Business.
11:44And I would put trade into the Foreign Office because I think the Foreign Office ought to have trade
11:48and our economic prosperity at its heart.
11:50And I think every single government should have the response,
11:53every single government department should have the responsibility for engaging with business as their job,
11:58not some other guy's job.
11:59I think government would be better if, you know, the Department of Culture and Media and Sport
12:04thought that its entire part of its role was to make sure that it has to engage with all the
12:08people
12:09that are operating commercially in their sectors.
12:11And that's part of the DNA and how they think about things.
12:14I think the Department of Business is particularly old fashioned.
12:16So if it was like a reverse takeover and you basically say,
12:19well, we're going to call it the Department for Science and Business and Innovation,
12:23but effectively we're keeping this new department that everybody thinks is really great
12:27and we're abolishing the thing that sounds a bit like it's from the 1970s,
12:31I think that would be great.
12:32But I don't think that's actually what's happened.
12:34But he'd love to abolish things from the 1970s, including Margaret Thatcher.
12:38He would do.
12:39And I would abolish even more departments, but there you go.
12:41What do you think of the fact that, you know,
12:44Antonio Romero's Cabinet Secretary,
12:46Shibana Mahmood is Home Secretary,
12:48and Louise Hague as CDL?
12:50I do think that Andy Burnham has not solved Labour's women problem
12:53with this reshuffle and this set of appointments.
12:56So if you look at the kind of bald numbers,
12:58I'm sure that they're going around saying, you know,
13:00this is a very balanced cabinet and all of these women have been appointed and yada yada.
13:06Actually, if you look at the positions of power,
13:09there are not very many women in positions of power.
13:12So take economic power,
13:14all of the important decisions that are made in government
13:17effectively have the Chancellor as part of them.
13:19So you've got the Prime Minister,
13:21the Prime Minister's Chief of Staff,
13:22the Prime Minister's Principal Private Secretary,
13:24you've got the Chancellor,
13:26the Chancellor's Permanent Secretary,
13:29probably, we don't know yet,
13:30but probably John Healy's Chief of Staff
13:32and his Principal Private Secretary.
13:35That's all men.
13:37So if you've got that room of people
13:39having to have a discussion,
13:40then what you tend to have,
13:42and you know this better than I do,
13:43is one of those people will go,
13:45this doesn't look very good,
13:46let's get a woman in the room.
13:48Yeah.
13:48So we talked a week or so ago
13:51about whether there's a boys club
13:54or there's toxic masculinity at the top of government.
13:57And in my experience,
13:59the men who get off scot-free
14:01are the ones who are actually quite sexist every day,
14:04but they pride themselves on being the good guys.
14:06And they're the kind of people
14:07that sit down in a meeting and think,
14:09oh, a lot of blokes in here.
14:11And then they'd literally walk around to my office next door
14:14and say, Cleo, can you come in?
14:15Because we feel a bit uncomfortable
14:17that there's not a woman present.
14:19We need a lady in the room.
14:21And you'd basically sit there either taking notes
14:23or pouring coffee and thinking,
14:25why am I here?
14:26And it's basically,
14:27so it's just on the notes that,
14:29you know, a uterus was present.
14:31The problem though,
14:32is that you'll remember this feeling.
14:34The people like Louise Haig
14:37and Emma Reynolds
14:38and even Antonio Ramea,
14:40although I think it's quite hard
14:41to squeeze her out of anything.
14:44In a week or two,
14:45they're going to realise
14:47whether they do actually have power at all.
14:50And that's, I think,
14:51I think Lou Haig is interesting.
14:52So you asked about the beefed up CDL role.
14:55So it will become very quickly apparent
14:56just how important she is.
14:58And that is obvious within Whitehall
15:00and it's obvious within Westminster
15:01and it's obvious in decision-making.
15:03And I think the question for her
15:06is, am I actually in the room
15:07where the decision is taken?
15:09Because you can be absolutely
15:11part of the team,
15:13essential,
15:13part of the morning meeting,
15:15briefed on everything.
15:16The Prime Minister
15:17and the Prime Minister's Chief of Staff
15:18can definitely ask you things
15:19and you feel like you're completely involved,
15:22but you're not actually in the meeting.
15:23You're in the meeting before.
15:25Exactly.
15:25Or you're in the meeting afterwards.
15:27Yeah, so by in the room
15:28or in the meeting,
15:29we mean, you know,
15:31are you on the technical meeting agenda
15:33to be there?
15:34And that might be held
15:35in the Prime Minister's office
15:35or in the Cabinet room.
15:37But are you on the WhatsApp group?
15:39Are you invited up
15:40to the informal curry
15:41in the Prime Minister's flat
15:43to chat further about it?
15:45Do you have a direct line in to him
15:46to say,
15:47listen, I think you've just got this
15:49totally wrong?
15:51Are you input?
15:51Are you,
15:52let's find out what Lou thinks?
15:53Or are you,
15:55we must do
15:56what Lou has said
15:57we should do this,
15:58so therefore we're doing that.
15:59And there is a world of difference
16:01between those two things
16:02and that's nothing to do
16:03with whatever title you've got
16:04or where you sit
16:05in the Cabinet room.
16:06But it's not a great
16:08from standing start position
16:09that she finds herself in,
16:10I'd say.
16:14So, Andy Burnham
16:15gave this speech yesterday
16:16and people noticed
16:18it was without electing
16:19and it was without notes,
16:21which is obviously
16:22very impressive.
16:22He'd obviously learned it
16:23by heart,
16:24although,
16:25you know,
16:26TBC,
16:26whether the general public
16:28actually notice
16:28and care about that
16:30going forward.
16:31So,
16:32with that in mind,
16:33it was fairly light on
16:36policy
16:36because you just,
16:37what can you contain
16:38in your head?
16:39But he did give us
16:40a few thoughts in there
16:42about how he intends
16:43to govern.
16:44You said a little while ago,
16:45Helen,
16:46talk left,
16:47govern right.
16:48Does that ring any bells?
16:49Yeah,
16:50I think that he,
16:51if he can do that,
16:52and I think he will do that
16:53in some ways.
16:54So,
16:54we talked about,
16:54they're already pre-briefing,
16:56for example,
16:57allowing drilling
16:58and some more oil exploration
17:00in the North Sea.
17:01Keeping Shibana Mahmood
17:02in the Home Office.
17:03Yeah.
17:03Yeah,
17:04there's quite a lot of,
17:04actually,
17:05can he build this massive,
17:07massive tent,
17:08massive tent,
17:09Andy?
17:09Let's see.
17:11Yes,
17:11incidentally,
17:12it's what he'll,
17:13what he will need to do
17:14just from a kind of
17:15campaigning point of view
17:16to win at the next
17:17general election.
17:18But how about a few things
17:19specifically?
17:20So,
17:21ending rough sleeping.
17:22So,
17:22I was delighted,
17:23as well as this amazing job,
17:25I chair Shelter,
17:27the Housing and Homelessness Charity,
17:28and it was just brilliant
17:30to see yesterday
17:30a Prime Minister
17:31in their first speech
17:32saying two things,
17:33talking about building
17:34council houses,
17:35which we definitely need,
17:36and then also
17:37committing to ending
17:38rough sleeping.
17:39And he did that,
17:41and he,
17:41yes,
17:42he committed to that
17:42when he was Manchester Mayor.
17:43Did he do it?
17:44No,
17:44he didn't.
17:45Did he make a big difference
17:46nevertheless?
17:47Yes,
17:47he did.
17:48Interestingly,
17:49he's not the first Prime Minister
17:50to commit to ending
17:51rough sleeping.
17:52No,
17:52he is not.
17:53It was something
17:55Boris Johnson
17:55was passionate about,
17:56and if I really recall,
17:58Robert Jenrick,
17:59who was the Housing Secretary,
18:01which is now Angela Rayner's job,
18:03was almost obsessive
18:04about it too.
18:05In a way,
18:05he feels,
18:06with his new principles
18:08at reform,
18:08I don't know how he feels
18:09about that now,
18:09but it was a big part
18:11of his brief at the time.
18:12It was something,
18:12maybe it's a mayoral thing
18:15that it bothered Boris Johnson
18:17as Mayor of London
18:18and bothered Andy Burnham
18:19as Mayor of Manchester,
18:21and so it's something
18:21that stays with you.
18:22And I think it's totemic
18:23of a state that isn't working.
18:25I think that's part of it.
18:26I think if you are
18:27the same age as Andy Burnham
18:28and Boris Johnson,
18:29you grew up in a country
18:30where it wasn't common.
18:31So it wasn't actually
18:32a normal thing at all
18:34for people to be sleeping
18:35on the streets.
18:35So in your mind,
18:36it's associated with state failure,
18:39because it is state failure,
18:40and it's either state failure
18:41because why the hell
18:42are people don't have
18:43a roof over their heads?
18:45They're so damaged
18:46and vulnerable
18:46that they have to sleep outside.
18:48And or there is also,
18:50unfortunately,
18:51a really kind of problem
18:52policing criminal element.
18:54Lots of vulnerable people
18:54are exploited.
18:55There are kind of
18:56gang elements of this.
18:58So a state that is
18:59functioning really well
19:00should not have people
19:01sleeping on the streets.
19:02So happily for those
19:03who really care about homelessness,
19:05this is a totemic issue,
19:07actually,
19:07that can unite
19:08all political parties
19:09on can we do
19:10something about it?
19:11It does also work
19:12across the spectrum,
19:13I think,
19:13because talking about homelessness
19:16and actually tying it in
19:18with Angela Rayner's role
19:19for house building
19:19is so important
19:20because it's not just
19:21that there's rough sleeping,
19:22it's that there are
19:24young professionals
19:25in middle class families
19:26who can't afford
19:27to buy their first home.
19:29It's sort of across the board.
19:30People are very,
19:31very agitated
19:32about the housing situation
19:34in the UK.
19:34Totally.
19:35And if you remember,
19:36one of the highlights
19:38of COVID,
19:38which is not something
19:39I say very often,
19:40one of the highlights
19:41of the COVID situation
19:42is that more than
19:43any other country,
19:43we managed to protect
19:45our rough sleeping population
19:46from the ravages
19:47of the COVID infections
19:49and their mortality rate
19:50was better than everybody else
19:51by putting everybody up
19:53in hotels.
19:54Do you remember,
19:54I still really,
19:55really remember
19:56it was the point
19:56where we weren't,
19:57we didn't have all
19:58of the cabinet
19:58in the cabinet room,
19:59but we had half of them
20:00in the cabinet room
20:01and they're kind of
20:03slightly confused.
20:04They were very pleased
20:05that the Prime Minister
20:06was super happy
20:07that we'd managed
20:07to solve rough sleeping
20:09by putting everybody
20:10up in hotels,
20:10but they were also
20:11a bit kind of,
20:12is this what we do?
20:14Is this the Conservative Party's
20:16position that we've solved
20:18rough sleeping
20:19by paying for hotels?
20:20In general,
20:21a lot of problems
20:21were solved with hotels,
20:23I think,
20:23in that era.
20:24How about cost
20:25of living measures?
20:26So he has announced
20:28today that he's going
20:30to cut VAT
20:32on energy bills
20:34in the autumn,
20:34so that's a 5% saving.
20:36Can I tell you something?
20:37Yes.
20:38That is a Brexit dividend
20:41because when we were
20:42in the EU,
20:44we couldn't do such a thing,
20:45we couldn't cut VAT
20:46on energy bills,
20:47so you're welcome everyone.
20:49Why don't we have
20:50a Brexit dividend bell?
20:51I know.
20:52It would be very dusty.
20:55Tiny, tiny bell.
20:57Blow the cobwebs off
20:58and give it a good go,
21:00but it's not being
21:02completely warmly received,
21:04has it?
21:04Well,
21:04it's a great announcement.
21:06By the time we get
21:07around to the winter
21:08and the actual price
21:09of electricity,
21:10will that 5%
21:11make everybody feel richer?
21:12Will people be thinking,
21:14fantastic,
21:14I can now buy a new TV
21:15because I'm saving 5%?
21:16I mean,
21:17it probably won't make
21:18that much difference.
21:20There's also been
21:21the first bit
21:21of sniping
21:23from disappointed
21:24former ministers,
21:25so what the government
21:27have said so far
21:28is that they've
21:28paid for this largesse
21:30by scrapping
21:31the digital ID scheme
21:33and Darren Jones
21:34has been straight
21:35out of the gate
21:35saying,
21:36well,
21:36that wasn't funded either,
21:38which I'm not sure
21:38is the excuse
21:39that he thinks it is.
21:41Oh, good.
21:42Yeah,
21:43and I think
21:43he's a perfect example
21:45of someone
21:45that,
21:46you know,
21:46with this kind of
21:47whipping operation
21:48that Andy Burnham
21:49has promised,
21:49does need
21:50quite a lot of thinking about
21:52because you've got
21:52the summer now
21:53without Parliament sitting,
21:54which in lots of ways
21:55is great
21:56if you're in government
21:56because it actually
21:58is quite time consuming
21:59going to the House
22:00to be scrutinised
22:01all the time
22:01and so on.
22:02However,
22:03accountability,
22:04democracy,
22:05so boring,
22:06so boring.
22:07On the other hand,
22:08someone like Darren Jones
22:09is young,
22:09he's energetic,
22:10he's ambitious
22:11and they need
22:12to find a way
22:13to slightly keep tabs
22:14on him over the summer,
22:15make sure he's not
22:16causing too much mischief,
22:17but to give him
22:19a sense that
22:19there may be
22:20a way back
22:21and that he can get
22:22his career back
22:23on track too
22:24and this needs
22:26a bit of thinking about,
22:27dare I say,
22:28having a couple of
22:29women in the room
22:30who know how
22:32to handle people properly
22:33could be quite useful here,
22:34but who am I to say?
22:36That would just be crazy.
22:37Stop going on about women.
22:38Yeah, yeah,
22:38I'm obsessed.
22:39How about a little
22:42bit on social care?
22:44So,
22:44I think the other thing
22:45that happened yesterday
22:46in the margins
22:47was that the Prime Minister
22:48in the Garden
22:49of Downing Street
22:49apparently did some
22:50briefings with
22:51senior journalists
22:52and I mean,
22:54he gave quite a starter
22:55for tens of millions
22:56of spending commitments
22:57so he said that
22:58there should be
22:59a new system
23:00of national social care,
23:02great,
23:02free at the point of use,
23:05wow,
23:05that's expensive.
23:06He talked about
23:07using the headroom
23:09inside the fiscal rules
23:11to invest in infrastructure,
23:12I think in general
23:13people would think
23:13that was a good thing
23:14but okay,
23:15that's more spending
23:16and where does that come from?
23:18He talked about
23:19whether the government
23:20would freeze rents
23:22to your point on housing,
23:23housing is unaffordable,
23:24that is a universal problem
23:25in our country,
23:26it needs fixing,
23:27freezing rents
23:28is not without
23:29its complexity,
23:30actually it's quite
23:31a tricky thing to do.
23:32And you do have to
23:32unfreeze them eventually
23:33and people don't like that.
23:35People don't like,
23:35yes, exactly,
23:36you've started something
23:37that is quite,
23:37and rent controls
23:38is quite politically
23:39and actually practically
23:40difficult to get right,
23:42housing needs to be
23:43more affordable
23:43but it's not
23:44a straightforward thing.
23:45The other thing
23:46that he talked about,
23:47the threshold
23:48at which you start
23:48paying income tax
23:49has been frozen
23:50for a long time.
23:51This thing called
23:51fiscal drag.
23:52That, in cash terms,
23:54has been kept
23:54to that level
23:55for a long time
23:55so a load of people
23:56who can technically
23:58and theoretically
23:59wouldn't be paying
24:00income tax
24:00are paying income tax
24:01because that's frozen
24:02and one of the things
24:03the Prime Minister
24:04indicated he was warm towards
24:05was raising that
24:07from £12,500.
24:08That is a lot of money
24:09that he just committed
24:11to in the garden
24:13yesterday afternoon
24:14so I think we just
24:15have to watch this space
24:15for how much
24:16is he going to start
24:17saying stuff
24:18that is going to,
24:19where's this bill
24:20going to be paid?
24:21Yes, and I have some
24:24sympathy to his advisors here
24:26because we have both
24:27worked for a Prime Minister
24:28who was very good
24:30at saying
24:31what the person
24:32in front of them,
24:33there's a great
24:35anecdote about Bill Clinton,
24:36you can take him
24:37into a room
24:38with 12 people
24:39who all have completely
24:40conflicting ideas
24:41and he speaks to them all
24:43and they all leave
24:43thinking he was on their side
24:45and unfortunately
24:47when it comes,
24:48you know,
24:48I think Burnham is very good
24:49again at that Clinton
24:50sort of I feel your pain
24:52sense with people
24:53but he's going to have to
24:54start making some
24:55tricky decisions soon
24:57and, you know,
24:57it's interesting to me
24:58how many of these
25:00policies he's talking about
25:02are quite,
25:02lots of conservatives
25:04have been working on
25:04for quite a long time
25:05and thinking about
25:07and talking about
25:07whether he can actually
25:08get them done
25:09and whether he can
25:10whether he can stomach
25:12making a few people
25:13cross on the way
25:14and he seems to have
25:15weathered Darren Jones
25:16being a bit cross with him
25:17very well so far
25:19is the real test here.
25:21I've got the female
25:22equivalent of that
25:22Bill Clinton story
25:24where I've got this
25:24fantastic photo of me
25:26and so I met Bill Clinton
25:26a few times
25:27and a few years ago
25:28I've got this great picture
25:30of me and some friends
25:31with him in the middle
25:32and it's all kind of
25:33lined up either side of him
25:34and after the photograph
25:36we were all like
25:37did he stroke your back?
25:38and like every single
25:40one of us
25:41every single one of us
25:42he's like
25:43no
25:44I mean the guy must have
25:45arms like an octopus
25:46you don't think you were
25:47stroking each other?
25:48it was very specific
25:49so I think from memory
25:51in the photo
25:51our arms are safe
25:53my friend
25:53should we talk about
25:54councils
25:54because our kid
25:56he do love a council
25:57he does love a council
25:59it's like councils
25:59must have been
26:00I mean I've just
26:01I've just drawn a veil
26:02over that
26:03that's not a Manchester accent
26:05maybe councils
26:06were really nice to him
26:07when he was a child
26:07or something
26:08because he's like
26:08super pro councils
26:10so he wants to give
26:10councils more powers
26:12he wants councils
26:14to be freed
26:15from some of the burden
26:16of social care
26:17most councils are spending
26:18most of their income
26:20most of their effort
26:21on social care
26:21he wants councils
26:22to build more housing
26:24this is like a massive leave
26:26for the first time
26:26in a long time
26:27really pro council
26:29prime minister
26:30there are though
26:31some little political risks
26:33there are
26:34yes
26:35with devolution
26:36comes great
26:38risk
26:39we had a great email
26:40actually a couple of days ago
26:42to intheroom
26:44at independent.co.uk
26:46which was from a lady
26:47who I would say
26:48is not overall
26:49a reform fan
26:50and she was asking us
26:52why is there so much
26:53fixation on Nigel Farage
26:54as a national leader
26:55and by the time
26:56a general election
26:57rolls round
26:58will there be more scrutiny
26:59of councils
27:01that are currently run
27:01by reform
27:02and how people feel
27:04are actually getting
27:04their services delivered
27:05well the great irony
27:07in Andy Burnham
27:08devolving so much power
27:10to councils
27:11is that
27:11there is a danger
27:13that he is just
27:14handing power
27:16to lots of councils
27:17that are from
27:18rival political parties
27:19and you know
27:21we've got a couple more
27:22rounds of
27:22council elections
27:24before the next
27:25general election
27:25he could continue
27:27to hemorrhage
27:27Labour support
27:28in councils
27:29because the governing party
27:30tends to do
27:31quite badly
27:32so there's
27:33there's a sort of
27:34strange irony
27:35where
27:36in being determined
27:37to sort of
27:38spread power
27:39across the UK
27:40he's sort of
27:42de facto
27:42putting
27:43the other
27:44opposition parties
27:45in charge
27:46yeah
27:46so just to give you
27:48a sense of the
27:48scale of that
27:49before the May elections
27:51this year
27:51Labour controlled
27:52120 councils
27:53they now control
27:5578
27:55it's quite unlikely
27:57that at the next
27:58two sets of council
27:59elections
27:59you're pointing
28:00about incumbency
28:01just what's happening
28:02in terms of
28:02splitting votes
28:03in various places
28:04that Labour are going
28:05to control
28:06more councils
28:07so therefore
28:08you are just
28:09giving power
28:09to the other guys
28:10and we know
28:11from experience
28:11that what happens
28:12is you give the power
28:13to the other guys
28:13when it works
28:14they take the credit
28:15and when it doesn't work
28:16they blame you
28:16and this is where
28:17some of his number 10
28:18appointments become
28:19tricky as well
28:19because we talked
28:20last week about
28:21how he has
28:23a director
28:23of political strategy
28:24and he also has
28:25a political director
28:26and you know
28:27those people
28:28someone's going to
28:29have to take charge
28:29of the local elections
28:31and people remember
28:32from previous
28:33local election cycles
28:35no one really wants
28:36to be in the hot seat
28:37leading these kinds
28:39of campaigns
28:40because like I said
28:42they generally don't
28:42go that well
28:43for the governing party
28:44but you know
28:44in order for
28:45Andy Burnham's plan
28:46to work
28:47he needs to
28:48at least retain
28:49if not win more seats
28:51for his kind of
28:53devolution plan purposes
28:54because you know
28:55as we ourselves
28:56found during COVID
28:57no matter how much
29:00power and money
29:01you cede
29:02to mayoralties
29:03or local councils
29:04to make decisions
29:05it's never enough
29:07and you as central
29:08government
29:08don't really get
29:10thanks for that
29:11we've talked previously
29:12about how
29:13so much churn
29:14is basically
29:16not good for the
29:17running of the state
29:18change of ministers
29:19change of departments
29:21and how stressful
29:22it can be for civil servants
29:23sort of welcoming
29:24new people
29:25or being unsure
29:25if someone's leaving
29:26or not
29:28I would love to know
29:30what it's like
29:31from your time
29:32being at housing
29:32and at the department
29:34for culture media
29:35and sport
29:35what it's like
29:36welcoming back
29:38a secretary of state
29:39or welcoming in
29:39new people
29:40and just how
29:41that first day goes
29:42so welcoming back
29:43a new secretary of state
29:44is really fun
29:44if you got on well
29:45with the secretary of state
29:46massive caveat
29:48because you're like
29:48yay
29:49it's not so good
29:50if you were all ready
29:51for a clean slate
29:51and you
29:52there were lots of things
29:53you didn't like
29:53you're caught like
29:54dead on their desk
29:55like oh sorry
29:56I was just
29:56swing cleaning
29:58when I worked
29:59for Tessa Jowell
29:59she was anticipating
30:01not coming back
30:02to DCMS
30:02after the 2005
30:05election
30:05and I had packed up
30:06absolutely everything
30:07in her room
30:08and she basically
30:09wanted to go to health
30:11and she ended up
30:11coming back to DCMS
30:12because of the Olympics
30:13so she kind of was
30:14hoisted by her own
30:14triumph really
30:15but I had to do
30:16the mother of all jobs
30:18to pretend
30:19that it was all
30:20absolutely fine
30:20and run into work
30:21at like 6 o'clock
30:22in the morning
30:22and unpack everything
30:23and then panic
30:24about the fact
30:25that I had not put
30:25exactly
30:27she was much tidier
30:28and more stylish
30:29than me
30:29so I was like
30:30oh hell
30:30I've probably put
30:31this picture
30:31in the wrong place
30:32so there is a bit
30:33of like good to see
30:34like the devil you know
30:35very good
30:36it's quite confusing
30:37sometimes
30:37because you can be
30:38so focused
30:39on the top of the shop
30:39so the department
30:40is all focused
30:41on the secretary of state
30:42so you can forget
30:44about the junior ministers
30:45so we've only seen
30:46really the cabinet ministers
30:48be appointed
30:49but we haven't seen
30:51the junior ministers
30:51although with the exception
30:52of one of the things
30:53I should have said earlier
30:54when we were talking
30:55about women
30:55is that
30:56you might have noticed
30:57this
30:57there are three
30:57shiny young men
30:58who are attending
30:59cabinet as minister of states
31:01name and shame
31:02name and credit
31:03they are shiny young men
31:05so there's the housing minister
31:06Matthew Pennycock
31:07Kanishka Narayan
31:08who is the minister for AI
31:10and then Hamish Faulkner
31:11who is
31:12was at the foreign office
31:13and is now at the foreign office
31:14and the cabinet office
31:15this is part
31:16of the
31:17you know
31:18thinking about
31:19why labour
31:20doesn't always get it right
31:20on women
31:21is they've got
31:22three young men
31:23who have these opportunities
31:24which have not been given
31:25to three young women
31:27it's nice you call them
31:27shiny young men
31:28we used to call them
31:29thrusters
31:32so there was
31:33Rishi Sunak
31:34Robert Jenrick
31:35Oliver Dowden
31:37who were
31:37the three
31:39who within weeks
31:40were holding
31:41pretty serious
31:42roles within government
31:44when they came in
31:44with Boris Johnson
31:45in 2019
31:46well there you go
31:47so you've got
31:51how that plays out
31:52and for departments
31:53actually that really matters
31:54obviously as well
31:54it's not just about
31:55the Secretary of State
31:56it's like who's
31:56who is the minister
31:57and are they somebody
31:58who's got a good reputation
32:00has already learnt
32:01to be a minister
32:01in another department
32:02and you're busy
32:03scurrying around
32:04asking your colleagues
32:05who work somewhere else
32:05like what annoys this person
32:07how do I get on their side
32:08really quickly
32:09you kind of pride yourself
32:10as a civil servant
32:11in learning your minister
32:12as fast as possible
32:13and do you hear
32:14I mean
32:15for the rest of us
32:16we got a great surprise
32:17particularly with
32:17the announcement of the
32:18Chancellor yesterday
32:19on this podcast
32:20but if you are working
32:22at a department
32:23and you're getting
32:23a new Secretary of State
32:24how much warning
32:26do you have
32:27that the new person
32:28is incoming
32:29driving to the department
32:30right now
32:30in their new car
32:31so in theory
32:32you should have
32:33quite a lot
32:34in practice
32:35it doesn't always
32:36work out like that
32:36and you have to then
32:38grovel and apologise
32:39to various permanent secretaries
32:40but one of the
32:41one of the tradable goods
32:42if you're a civil servant
32:43in the centre of power
32:44who knows who's going
32:44to be appointed
32:45is permanent secretaries
32:46who are your friends
32:47you try to be
32:48or that you want
32:49to be friends with
32:50or that really matter
32:51for some other reason
32:52you try to be
32:53exceptionally helpful to
32:55but you probably
32:55you literally can't tell
32:56everybody all the time
32:58who they're going to get
33:00not even independent podcasts
33:02not even independent podcasts
33:04I know
33:05they're probably
33:05maybe there are
33:06some other people
33:06who are much better briefed
33:08but the other thing
33:08is it changes right
33:09so you can be totally sure
33:10and I definitely came
33:11a cropper with this
33:12is you kind of
33:12you know
33:13you confidently tell
33:14but like confidently saying
33:15Shaman Mahmood
33:16is going to be Chancellor
33:17you confidently tell
33:19a permanent secretary
33:20they're getting X or Y or Z
33:21and then obviously
33:22it's gone slightly wrong
33:24in the reshuffle
33:25and this person
33:26refused that job
33:26and your department's gone
33:27sorry
33:29accidentally
33:29your department
33:30got abolished
33:31well stay tuned
33:32because on Friday
33:33we're going to be talking
33:34about Andy Burnham's
33:35first week in the job
33:36he will have done
33:37by Friday
33:38he'll have done a week
33:39as Labour leader
33:39and five days
33:41as Prime Minister
33:42so let's see
33:42how he's getting on
33:43by then
33:43indeed
33:44thank you for listening
33:45to today's episode
33:46remember to follow the show
33:47on your podcast player of choice
33:48and leave us a five star review
33:50if you enjoyed it
33:50and do please keep emailing us
33:52your feedback and questions
33:54our email address is
33:55intheroom
33:55at independent.co.uk
33:57and if you're listening
33:58on Spotify
33:59you can comment on today's episode
34:01with your thoughts
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34:10we're at our best
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34:11for sure
34:12this podcast is part
34:14of the Independent Podcast Network
34:15and produced in association
34:16with Next Chapter Studios
34:17the executive producer
34:19is Rod Ardahali
34:20and the producer
34:20is Sam Durham
34:21and as ever
34:22a special mention
34:23to our content editor
34:24Maya Anushka
34:25our video editor
34:26Vali Raza
34:26and our videographer
34:27Dan Faber
34:28thanks for listening
34:29and we'll see you on Friday
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