- 2 weeks ago
Общий долг как решение проблемы роста Европы: дебаты евродепутатов в The Ring
В новом выпуске программы «The Ring» депутаты Европарламента Маркус Фербер и Паскуале Тридико спорят, может ли общий долг спасти застойную экономику Европы и восстановить её конкурентоспособность.
ЧИТАТЬ ДАЛЕЕ : http://ru.euronews.com/2026/07/16/obshij-dolg-kak-reshenie-problemy-rosta-evropy-debaty-evrodeputatov-v-the-ring
Подписывайтесь: Euronews можно смотреть на Dailymotion на 12 языках
В новом выпуске программы «The Ring» депутаты Европарламента Маркус Фербер и Паскуале Тридико спорят, может ли общий долг спасти застойную экономику Европы и восстановить её конкурентоспособность.
ЧИТАТЬ ДАЛЕЕ : http://ru.euronews.com/2026/07/16/obshij-dolg-kak-reshenie-problemy-rosta-evropy-debaty-evrodeputatov-v-the-ring
Подписывайтесь: Euronews можно смотреть на Dailymotion на 12 языках
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02:06Pasquale Tridico
02:07An Italian MEP from the left from Movimento Cinque Stelle
02:11An economist and former president of Italy's National Institute for Social Security
02:15He serves in the European Parliament's Committee on Economic and Monetary Affairs
02:19And chairs the Subcommittee on Tax Matters
02:21A strong advocate of greater public investment at EU level, he says
02:25Competitiveness does not come from deregulation, but from innovation embedded in investment
02:31Common debt, not for the rearm, but for our companies and our citizens
03:00It is a supremely bad idea
03:06So, let's welcome both of them, Marcus Feber and Pasquale Tridico
03:10Great to have you with us on The Ring
03:12Now, the idea here is to have an open debate
03:16A healthy one, a frank one
03:18And to give our viewers at home a taste of the debates that happen here in the European Parliament
03:23So, let's get started
03:25Marcus Feber, let me come to you first
03:28Spain putting now on the table a proposal, a bold one
03:31850 billion euros more in joint EU borrowing every year to fund growth
03:38Is this a good idea?
03:40It is a good idea if it comes from the real economy
03:43And that is what we have firstly to discuss
03:45How can you organize growth?
03:47And I don't think you can organize growth by putting public money in the economy and wait for growth
03:52And therefore all these attempts to spend money from public budgets
03:58And then hoping growth will come
03:59Never worked, at the end you had high debts and no sustainable growth
04:03Therefore it's not the right instrument
04:05Yes, Europe is competing with global giants, China, the US
04:10Is it inevitable now that it needs to pull sovereignty and that only as a strong bloc
04:15It can compete with these giants, Pasquale?
04:17Yes, the point is not to do something extraordinary that countries do not do
04:22It's to complete what we should do
04:24In fact, Europe, the Eurozone in particular, is an imperfect union
04:28Exactly because it does not use one of the most important tools for economic growth
04:34That in the history has been used
04:36Meaning the public debt
04:38In particular when times require that in Christ time
04:43During, in fact, the Covid
04:45It was used for a short time for a temporary tool
04:48And this was the crisis which was better managed than ever in Europe
04:53Actually, we have introduced the first sure and then the next generation new
04:59Which were very useful temporary for Europe to grow
05:02If we don't understand that Europe is lacking one important tool
05:07That all countries they have
05:08In Japan, in UK, in USA, they have
05:12It's not something that is new in the economy
05:15So, Pasquale is saying that there is a precedent
05:17So the safe instrument, the 150 billion euros
05:20Also, the joint loan for Ukraine recently
05:23Why not explore these avenues when it comes to the other crisis facing Europe
05:28Which is the competitiveness crisis?
05:30I think we have to separate various things
05:32Ukraine is Ukraine and should be dealt separately
05:34And we should not mix things
05:35The Shuri program are loans for the member states
05:38Of course, for some member states it's interesting to get loans from the European Union
05:42As they have to pay less public loans
05:46But they have to pay less interest rates, sorry, that's the issue
05:49Because they don't have AAA
05:51But if you look for example at the member states
05:53I know best, we are not interested in that
05:56As we have AAA by ourselves
05:57And even the interest rates are lower for Germany than for the European Union
06:01So it's an instrument for those who suffer already
06:04But to make them alive
06:06Does not mean to give more debts to them
06:09We should really think how we can strengthen the economies
06:12Look to Greece
06:13Which is performing best because they did reforms
06:16Look to Italy
06:17They are performing worse because they never did reforms
06:20Look to Spain
06:21They misused the money of next generation EU
06:24Not for investments but for social welfare
06:27Sorry, if that is the way it is dealt in Europe
06:30It's not a good idea
06:32So that's the debate around the Spanish pensions
06:34And there is a debate now around whether the EU can repay the Covid recovery and resilience loans
06:41Some leaders calling for the repayment to be delayed
06:44So if it's so difficult for the EU to repay its current debt
06:47Wouldn't it be irresponsible to borrow more right now?
06:50No, because Europe does not have any debt
06:53Again, I insist
06:54We need to complete the union
06:57It's not something that we are adding
06:59And this is not only as it was mentioned by Ferber
07:03A matter of north against south
07:05It's a matter of union
07:06And it's not what I said, my friend
07:08I just underline the point
07:10We are in the Eurozone, in the European Union
07:13And we do have a common tariff
07:17We do have export and import
07:18And all countries benefit from the fact
07:20For instance, the north, Germany benefit from the fact
07:23That it can export towards the south
07:25So now, an asymmetrical crisis in the south
07:28Is caused as well
07:29Because Germany export more towards the south
07:33So if you don't build the safeguard
07:35The union itself can be destroyed
07:38And Germany cannot even export any longer
07:41The point is that we do have a monetary union
07:44Without the tool that usually country, economy
07:48Robust economy
07:49They have to complete the union
07:50Now, when we introduce it
07:53Look at how we manage the financial crisis
07:56The financial crisis created poverty, unemployment
07:59Destruction of firms in Germany as well as in Italy
08:03In the north and in the south
08:04We didn't do the right things
08:06Only partially at the end of the crisis
08:09In 2012, when Draghi did whatever it takes
08:13And didn't even do monetary policy expansion
08:17Just say that it should do
08:18The market was in a way calm
08:22Now, we don't have the tool
08:23And I have to say that the first time, Marcus
08:26That this policy, the common debt
08:28Was proposed in Europe
08:30Was actually by a centre-right government
08:33Berlusconi by Tremonti
08:35The first ever minister of economy
08:37Which proposed what Spain today is proposing
08:39Was 15 years ago by a centre-right economist
08:44Okay, your reaction to that, Max Weber
08:45Quite a lot there
08:46I think it's not a question of party affiliation
08:48It's a question how to deal with those
08:50We want to borrow the money from
08:53And the financial crisis started
08:55Not because something went wrong in the government
08:58Because those who borrow the countries
09:01In this case Greece said
09:02We do not borrow any cent anymore
09:05To your country
09:06Because we don't trust that you are able to repay
09:08And what is the signal we are sending out
09:10With the next generation EU
09:12If we discuss with the council
09:13Who promised new own resources for repayment
09:16Nothing has happened since that
09:18So the market will not trust us
09:20And then I wish you all the best and good luck
09:23To go to the market asking for money
09:25But refinancing, repayment, who cares
09:29Sorry, the market will ask for high interest rates for that
09:32And then it's not a qualified instrument
09:34You have to do some things, a lot of things before
09:37And then maybe one can sink
09:40But at the moment, as we are constructed
09:42It makes no sense
09:44So you disagree with the Spanish economy minister
09:46Who says that in fact
09:48By borrowing a lot of money
09:50850 billion
09:51Actually the interest rates will be very favourable
09:54He speaks about 5 billion euros per year in interest
09:58Yeah, but the idea of the Spanish is that
10:00Those who want to join in are borrowing money
10:04But the others have to stand for the debts
10:06And that is not functioning
10:08Those who borrow the money have to stay for the debts
10:10But if it is only those who cannot afford the interest rates anymore
10:14They will not have lower interest rates
10:16So I think that is a calculation which fits on the paper
10:20But not on the markets
10:21Finally, there is clearly a divide here
10:23We are seeing it very clearly
10:24Does that mean that the European Union might need to move differently
10:29And a group of countries that do favour this might need to do it alone
10:32Without the backing of the 27?
10:34Well, you need to consider that we do have a Eurozone
10:37Within the Eurozone
10:39This is something that needs to be done
10:41You can have a different approach outside of the Eurozone
10:45But within the Eurozone, this is a common policy
10:48Again, just because it is missing
10:49Not because we want to add something more
10:51Let me specify one thing
10:53Everybody probably think that Italy, for instance
10:56Is a country which spends more than what it gets
10:58Actually, this is the opposite
11:00As all the economists know
11:01The primary surplus of Italy
11:04Has been in primary surplus for the past 25 years
11:06As German
11:07Italy is a country which has more export than import
11:10As always having a
11:12As always had a primary surplus
11:15It pay a higher cost of debt
11:19Which actually is detrimental for the economy
11:21Because we are paying more interest than other
11:24And in a Eurozone, this is actually dysfunctional
11:28It's not needed to say that
11:30Nobel economists like Mandel in 1992
11:32Say that the first thing that Europe need to do
11:34Is to create a safe asset
11:37It works well during the crisis
11:40And then you can cope with the calm market in a better way
11:44Okay
11:44Look what's happening today in Germany
11:46But that's what in Italy
11:47With the industrial crisis
11:48With the automotive sector
11:50Which is leaving thousands of people without jobs
11:54How can we cope with that
11:56Without a plan
11:57Like we proposed
11:59The sure plan for automotive
12:01Supporting the supply
12:02Supporting the demand
12:04And supporting as well
12:05The investment in the electric transition
12:09Chinese with a soft budget constraint
12:11Are doing that
12:13And are much more competitive
12:14And I'm sure we will come back to that
12:17And the China issue
12:18But I must stop you there
12:20Because that's the end of our first round
12:22The debate is heating up
12:24I see
12:24We will continue it
12:25But it is time for us to move on
12:28And in the next round
12:29We take the gloves off
12:35In this round we give you both the opportunity to directly challenge each other
12:40I know you've come with your own questions
12:43So now first, Marcus Ferber, your first question to Pasquale Trinico
12:48Yeah, Pasquale
12:49The Spanish paper says that the European Union budget has to guarantee the bonds which are issued
12:55Which means we have to increase the guarantees the member states are granting to the European Union
13:01Do you really think it is appropriate then to spend it for debts in other member states and not to
13:06spend it directly in the budget?
13:08I don't understand this mechanism
13:10Marcus, you don't understand because you don't see the Union as a Union
13:14Probably
13:15If you see the Union
13:16That is not fair
13:18Then a Solidarity mechanism in the Eurozone
13:21Not because we want to be good
13:23But because we want an economy which works
13:26We need to accept a common debt
13:28It is not a matter only of Solidarity
13:31It's a matter of a well-built framework and economy
13:35Again, this is not what we are saying for political preferences
13:38This is what we say after several economists
13:43I quoted before Mandel
13:45And I quoted Stiglitz
13:47Actually, they say that the Euro is in crisis
13:49Exactly because it does not have a safe asset
13:51Which works during the crisis time
13:53And we saw that it works
13:55Because safe assets like during Covid
13:57Sure, Next Generation EU
13:59Were exactly done
14:00Because we miss one structural tool like that
14:03And we introduce temporary
14:04Now, the proposal is to introduce
14:07Not temporary but structural
14:09In order to act when crisis comes
14:12Even if you don't have to act
14:15Probably the market will be more calm
14:17If there is the presence of a safe asset
14:20Okay, and Pasquale Trivico
14:21Your first question now to Marcus Febber
14:24Marcus, we are speaking all the time about resources
14:27Your question as well was about the resources
14:29And how about how to repay
14:30Now we know that most of the firms
14:35Which are doing well and better in the economy
14:38Are the digital firms
14:39Firms which are producing multinationals in particular
14:42Which are producing digital services in Europe
14:44And we are not taxing them
14:47We have proposed the web tax
14:49In order to collect some common resources
14:51Again, to shape our economy
14:56As well during Christ's time
14:57And for a matter of equilibrium
14:59Would you agree with the web tax?
15:01The problem is a little bit more difficult
15:03As we have some member states in the European Union
15:05Who have already introduced a so-called digital tax
15:08Yeah?
15:09And if I ask the finance ministers of these member states
15:13They say, yes, we are in favor of a digital tax
15:16Even European harmonized and how to calculate it
15:19But I want the money
15:20And now that is not a helpful tool
15:24To address the issue we are discussing today
15:26Because if you want to have that tax
15:29As a guarantee for common debts
15:32Then these member states
15:34Who have already introduced digital tax
15:36Have to transfer the amounts they are receiving out of that
15:40To the European Union
15:41And that's why in the council
15:43No one took it up
15:44So good luck with an idea
15:46Where there is no support in the council
15:48But if I may for the own resources
15:50There is a debate about gambling sites for example
15:53What makes digital corporations different?
15:56Yeah, as I said
15:57We have more than a handful of member states
15:59Who have already a digital tax
16:00For national budgets
16:02And therefore they are not willing to give it up
16:04To invent new taxes is always a beloved thing
16:07By those who are not able to do reforms
16:09But honestly, if you want to have sustainable growth
16:12You don't have to have higher taxes
16:14You don't have to have more taxes
16:16You really need incentives for the member states
16:18And I'm really surprised that those
16:20Who overrun the European Union
16:22With bureaucratic burdens in the last ten years
16:24And sorry, you belong to this part of the parliament
16:27Are now complaining that we don't create growth anymore
16:30We have to free our economy
16:33That's more important than to throw money to them
16:35Okay, we'll come back to that
16:37I know you had more questions
16:38But that's all we have time for this second round
16:41Because now it's time to bring in a new voice
16:48I'd like to now bring in the president of the European Central Bank
16:52Christine Lagarde
16:53She sat down for an interview with Euronews last week
16:57And was asked for her reaction to Spain's proposal
17:01For more joint debt in the EU
17:04Let's take a listen to what she had to say
17:06The circumstances have changed
17:08And it should lead the leaders of the various member states
17:13To consider and to address what are their concerns
17:16So I think an ex ante no over my dead body
17:19Is not the best way to deal with it
17:22I think the best way to deal with it
17:23Is to try to analyse what is too much of a risk
17:27And how that risk can be addressed
17:29So Marcus Feber, a veiled criticism there
17:32Of those, like you I believe, who say no outright
17:36Should we at least debate this more seriously in the EU?
17:40Yeah, but the question is
17:41What is the starting point of the discussion?
17:43Is the starting point of the discussion common debts
17:46Or is it common policies?
17:48Because I read the Spanish proposal
17:50That national obligations should be financed by European debts
17:54And that will not work
17:56So we have to take it the other way around
17:58What can we do together as Europeans
18:01And that's why I really don't want to be accused
18:05Not being a federalist in the positive sense
18:10Because I am
18:11But firstly we have to define what we can do together
18:15And then we have to speak about the financing
18:17And not the other way around
18:18Let's find finances and finance national obligations
18:21I want to ask you because Italy is one of the EU countries
18:25Facing major elections next year
18:28Along with France, Spain, Greece and others
18:30And do you fear that we could see a shift back to this kind of narrative
18:36That economic matters is a national thing
18:39It's all about national sovereignty
18:40And that could really undermine this push to pull more sovereignty at the EU level?
18:45Look, while we think that economy is a national matter
18:49We are overwhelmed outside by multinational
18:53Which are not national
18:54So sovereignty of national economy is very much constrained by global in particular by multinational
19:00That's why I said before that if we need to define policy
19:05Tax policy should be defined as well in the digital sector
19:08I'm not saying that resources should not be lifted to the member states
19:15It should be coordinated at member states
19:17Even the harmonization
19:18We often do a dumping among member states in terms of tax
19:23To attract capital from one country to another
19:26Usually northern countries try to attract capital with fiscal dumping, with tax dumping
19:32That's why we need a policy
19:33Policy in terms of digital services, policy in terms of capital taxes, corporate taxes
19:39This is the way to support a federalist idea of Europe
19:44Okay, thank you both
19:45But it's now time for us to take a break here on The Ring
19:49But we'll be back with more after this
19:51So stay with us
20:00Welcome back to The Ring, Euronews' weekly debate show
20:04I'm Maret Gwynn
20:05And I'm joined this week by Marcus Ferber from the European People's Party
20:09And Pascuale Tridico from the left group
20:12Today our topic is the state of Europe's economy
20:16And the mounting calls on the EU to raise more joint debt to fund growth
20:21Behind these calls, of course, is the realization that European growth is stagnating
20:27And that Europe is failing to keep up with major global competitors
20:31Let's take a closer look at the data
20:34And we can see here that in terms of real GDP
20:38That's inflation-adjusted gross domestic product
20:41It's growing at a much higher rate globally than in the EU
20:45But it's also higher in other advanced economies such as Japan and the US
20:49We also see stagnation in real GDP in the EU in recent years
20:54And we know, of course, that in the first quarter of 2026
20:58The Eurozone economy, in fact, shrank by 0.2%
21:03Now, this is concerning for Europeans
21:05And part of the problem is this question of global competitiveness
21:09We know that China, some would say, is increasingly predatory in its tactics
21:14When it comes to trade
21:16Is the EU doing enough to get tougher on China?
21:19No, we are not doing enough
21:21Because we are not using the only asset we have, which is the single market
21:25And if you look to the figures calculated by the International Monetary Fund
21:29Which says that even in the trade of goods, we hurt ourselves like tariffs of 45%
21:35Which is three times what the US is doing with us
21:38That shows there's a high potential in the single market
21:41And we really should use these possibilities to strengthen our home market
21:46To be less dependent from exports to other regions in the world
21:50And the other thing means as well to protect ourselves
21:53Especially against China, who is subsidizing its overproduction
21:56And that is not an entrance key for European Union markets
22:00And we should protect ourselves
22:02We know all of these arguments
22:03We hear them all the time here in Brussels these days
22:06The Commission now saying that by October there will be a trade deal
22:09Or it does get tougher
22:10Do you believe that that will happen?
22:12Well, I hope so
22:13Because I hope that Europe will be more competitive
22:16However, I have to say competitiveness does not come out of the blue
22:20Competitiveness of course comes from investment, from capital, from market
22:23But there is a big role here that can be played
22:26In particular during the
22:28In face of countries which use several weapons
22:32Meaning political weapons, economic weapons
22:34Such as soft budget cost trade
22:36One of the most important tools which we are missing is the public investment here
22:40In particular during transition as the one that we are leaving
22:43We are leaving an ecological transition, environmental transition
22:47We are doing nothing to be more competitive
22:49Exactly in the same field of China
22:51Which is the electric transition
22:53Our automotive sector for instance
22:55Is losing steps, is losing competitiveness
22:58Exactly because we miss a big player
23:01Look at the case of Boeing
23:03The Air 1, sorry
23:05To compete against Boeing in the United States
23:08We had a consortium
23:10One single player like the Airbus
23:12Which was more competitive
23:14And here we had an industrial policy
23:16A European industrial policy
23:18In that sector
23:19In the Airbus sector
23:21We can have an industrial policy
23:23With a plan of at least 500 billion euros
23:27Which support the transition in three ways
23:29First, supporting demand
23:31We know that electric cars are higher than the ELS
23:34So we can for instance introduce a cut in the VAT
23:39For consumption of electric cars
23:41Second, supply
23:43Investors are basically afraid
23:45Don't know what they do
23:46There is uncertainty
23:47We need to say that the electric transition is a must
23:51But we need to support that
23:52Meaning that we need to have credits for tax credits
23:57For firms investing huge tax credits
23:59Like the United States did
24:00Investing in electric cars
24:04And third and last
24:06And third and last
24:06Is to support as well
24:07Employers
24:08Meaning workers
24:10Sorry
24:10Workers are suffering during this transition
24:12Because they are getting in a full love scheme
24:17In suspension of work
24:19In unemployment
24:20There is a need there to support income
24:22Because without income there is no demand
24:24Some interesting ideas there
24:26Industrial decline is clearly a big concern in Germany
24:29Do you agree with some of those ideas?
24:31I think our main objectives
24:33Our main problems are high energy prices
24:35The energy market
24:37A real integrated full integrated energy market could help a lot
24:40Number two is aging society
24:43That is a huge challenge for us
24:45So we have really to invest more in education
24:49In our own people
24:51That is very important
24:52And number three is as I said
24:54Strengthening the single market
24:56That are the key objectives to achieve
24:58Not finance here, finance here, finance here
25:01That is not addressing any problem
25:03Okay
25:03So a few areas of common ground perhaps
25:07But also a lot of disagreement here I see
25:10But let me stop you there
25:11Because now it's time for us to move on
25:14To our fifth and final round
25:19In our last round we do something a little different
25:22I'm going to ask you a series of questions
25:25And I'm going to ask you to respond with one answer
25:29Either yes or no
25:31Are you ready?
25:33So first question to you Pasquale Tridico
25:35Should the EU embrace joint debt?
25:38Yes, sure
25:38No
25:40No
25:41Marcus, should the EU at least debate Spain's proposal for more joint debt?
25:45No
25:45Yes, sure
25:47Should Germany and other frugal states accept higher debt if it boosts European competitiveness?
25:54It will not boost, so no
25:56Yes, sure
25:57Should highly indebted countries with high rates of debt and deficit cut spending before they ask for more support from
26:06the EU?
26:06No
26:06Of course
26:08Should Europe prioritize competitiveness over balanced budgets?
26:13No, both goes hand in hand
26:14Okay
26:15But they go together
26:16Oh, we agree
26:17And finally, I'd like to ask you both
26:20Is there anything you've heard from your opponents today that has maybe made you change your mind or change your
26:26perspective on this debate?
26:29Well, we have spoken about a very specific issue on which actually there is a clear division
26:36I understand the logic of Marcus but this does not work in a union like us which is actually imperfect
26:47Okay
26:48So we are not adding a tool, we are completing the union
26:51And what about you, Marcus Feber? Anything that Pasquale Tridico has said has maybe changed your mind?
26:57No, because he is speaking about the last step and forget all those steps before
27:01And I spoke about the first steps to be done and then we are on the right track
27:05Okay, so we haven't cracked the problem of the division of the EU's common debt on the Ring this week
27:11But we've suddenly had a good debate on it
27:13Thank you both
27:14Thank you
27:15And that brings us to the end of this edition of The Ring
27:19Thank you again, Pasquale Tridico and Marcus Feber
27:22Thank you also to you at home for watching
27:26And remember, you can continue the debate by sending us your thoughts, feedback and comments
27:32Our email address is thering at euronews.com
27:35And we'll be back soon with more from The Ring
27:38In the meantime, take care and stay with us here on Euronews
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