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Dívida comum pode resolver o problema do crescimento na Europa? Eurodeputados debatem no The Ring
No episódio desta semana de The Ring, os eurodeputados Markus Ferber e Pasquale Tridico debatem se a dívida comum pode relançar a economia europeia e reforçar a sua competitividade
LEIA MAIS : http://pt.euronews.com/2026/07/16/divida-comum-pode-resolver-o-problema-do-crescimento-na-europa-eurodeputados-debatem-no-th
Subscreva, euronews está disponível em 12 línguas.
No episódio desta semana de The Ring, os eurodeputados Markus Ferber e Pasquale Tridico debatem se a dívida comum pode relançar a economia europeia e reforçar a sua competitividade
LEIA MAIS : http://pt.euronews.com/2026/07/16/divida-comum-pode-resolver-o-problema-do-crescimento-na-europa-eurodeputados-debatem-no-th
Subscreva, euronews está disponível em 12 línguas.
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NotíciasTranscrição
00:07Olá e bem-vindo a The Ring, Euronews's weekly debate show.
00:13This week, broadcasts from the European Parliament here in Brussels.
00:17I'm your host, Marek Gwynne.
00:19Now, every week, two members of the European Parliament step into The Ring
00:23to debate some of the most pressing issues facing the European Union.
00:27This week, we're discussing the economic downturn looming over European nations.
00:33A deep ideological divide is now emerging between countries who want more joint borrowing to fund growth
00:40and frugal states who want fiscal discipline.
00:44Luis Albertos explains.
00:47Is Europe's economy at breaking point?
00:51High borrowing costs, limited fiscal space and weakening competitiveness
00:55are all putting Europe's economic stability at risk.
00:59Countries previously considered economic powerhouses such as France and Germany
01:03are now struggling with sluggish growth due to low productivity and industrial decline.
01:10The diagnosis is clear, but the solution is not.
01:13EU capitals are torn on the way forward.
01:16Last week, Spain proposed expanding the EU's use of common debt
01:20to help finance strategic investments.
01:23Under the proposal, the European Commission would borrow on behalf of EU member states
01:27to fund shared priorities, such as defense, energy, innovation and infrastructure.
01:33Supporters, namely southern European member states, argue that it would strengthen Europe's
01:37competitiveness and lower financing costs.
01:41But several northern member states oppose expanding common debt,
01:44arguing the EU should prioritize stricter spending rules and fiscal discipline.
01:49Can EU countries find common ground?
01:52And what would be the economic cost for Europe if they don't?
01:59That's the topic for our debate today.
02:02Let's now meet our contenders.
02:06Pascuale Tridico, an Italian MEP from the left from Movimento Cinque Stelle.
02:11An economist and former president of Italy's National Institute for Social Security,
02:15he serves in the European Parliament's Committee on Economic and Monetary Affairs
02:19and chairs the Subcommittee on Tax Matters.
02:21A strong advocate of greater public investment at EU level, he says,
02:25Competitiveness does not come from deregulation, but from innovation embedded in investment.
02:31Common debt, not for the rearm, but for our companies and our citizens.
02:36Markus Ferber, a German MEP from the Central Right European People's Party.
02:41A long-serving member of the European Parliament, he is the vice-chair of the Subcommittee on Tax
02:45Matters and a member of the Committee on Economic and Monetary Affairs.
02:48A consistent advocate of fiscal discipline and competitiveness, he says,
02:53We tried a one-off debt instrument during the pandemic and are still arguing about who repays it.
02:58Now Spain wants to make that the permanent model.
03:02It is a supremely bad idea.
03:06So let's welcome both of them, Markus Ferber and Pascuale Tridico.
03:11Great to have you with us on The Ring.
03:13Now, the idea here is to have an open debate, a healthy one, a frank one.
03:18And to give our viewers at home a taste of the debates that happen here in the European Parliament.
03:24So let's get started.
03:26Markus Ferber, let me come to you first.
03:28Spain putting now on the table a proposal, a bold one,
03:32850 billion euros more in joint EU borrowing every year to fund growth.
03:38Is this a good idea?
03:40It is a good idea if it comes from the real economy.
03:43And that is what we have firstly to discuss.
03:45How can you organize growth?
03:47And I don't think you can organize growth by putting public money in the economy and wait for growth.
03:52And therefore, all these attempts to spend money from public budgets and then hoping growth will come never worked.
04:01At the end, you had high debt and no sustainable growth.
04:03Therefore, it's not the right instrument.
04:05Yes, Europe is competing with global giants, China, the US.
04:10Yes, is it inevitable now that it needs to pull sovereignty and that only as a strong bloc it can
04:16compete with these giants, Pasquale?
04:17Yes, the point is not to do something extraordinary that countries do not do.
04:22It's to complete what we should do.
04:24In fact, Europe, the Eurozone in particular, is an imperfect union exactly because it does not use one of the
04:31most important tool for economic growth that in the history has been used.
04:36Meaning the public debt, in particular, when times require that in Christ time during, in fact, the COVID, it was
04:46used for a short time for a temporary tool.
04:48And this was the crisis which was better managed than ever in Europe.
04:54Actually, we have introduced the first sure and then the next generation new, which were very useful temporary for Europe
05:02to grow.
05:02If we don't understand that Europe is lacking one important tool that all countries they have in Japan, in UK,
05:10in USA, they have.
05:12It's not something that is new in the economy.
05:15So, Pasquale is saying that there is a precedent, so the safe instrument, the 150 billion euros, also the joint
05:21loan for Ukraine recently.
05:23Why not explore these avenues when it comes to the other crisis facing Europe, which is the competitiveness crisis?
05:30I think we have to separate various things.
05:32Ukraine is Ukraine and should be dealt separately and we should not mix things.
05:36The Shurei program are loans for the member states.
05:38Of course, for some member states, it's interesting to get loans from the European Union as they have to pay
05:44less public loans, but they have to pay less interest rates.
05:48Sorry.
05:48That's the issue because they don't have AAA.
05:51But if you look, for example, the member state I know best, we are not interested in that as we
05:56have AAA by ourselves.
05:57And even the interest rates are lower for Germany than for the European Union.
06:01So, it's an instrument for those who suffer already, but to make them alive does not mean to give more
06:09debts to them.
06:10We should really think how we can strengthen the economies.
06:13Look to Greece, which is performing best because they did reforms.
06:16Look to Italy.
06:17They are performing worse because they never did reforms.
06:20Look to Spain.
06:21They misused the money of next generation EU, not for investments, but for social welfare.
06:27Sorry, if that is the way it is dealt in Europe, it's not a good idea.
06:32So, that's the debate around the Spanish pensions.
06:34And there is a debate now around whether the EU can repay the COVID recovery and resilience loans.
06:42Some leaders calling for the repayment to be delayed.
06:44So, if it's so difficult for the EU to repay its current debt, wouldn't it be irresponsible to borrow more
06:50right now?
06:50No, because Europe does not have any debt.
06:53Again, I insist, we need to complete the union.
06:57It's not something that we are adding.
06:59And this is not only, as it was mentioned by Ferber, a matter of north against south.
07:05It's a matter of union.
07:06And it's not what I said, my friend.
07:08I just underline the point.
07:10We are in the Eurozone, in the European Union, and we do have a common tariff.
07:17We do have export and import.
07:19All countries benefit from the fact, for instance, the north, Germany, benefit from the fact that it can export towards
07:25the south.
07:25So, now, an asymmetrical crisis in the south is caused as well because Germany export more towards the south.
07:33So, if you don't build the safeguard, the union itself can be destroyed.
07:39And Germany cannot even export any longer.
07:41The point is that we do have a monetary union without the tool that usually country, economy, robust economy, they
07:49have to complete the union.
07:51Now, when we introduce it, look at how we manage the financial crisis.
07:56The financial crisis created poverty, unemployment, destruction of firms in Germany as well as in Italy, in the north and
08:04in the south.
08:04We didn't do the right things, only partially at the end of the crisis, in 2012, when Draghi did whatever
08:13it takes and didn't even do monetary policy expansion.
08:17Just say that it should do, the market was in a way calm.
08:22Now, we don't have the tool.
08:23And I have to say that the first time, Marcus, that this policy, the common debt, was proposed in Europe
08:30was actually by a center-right government, Berlusconi,
08:34by Tremonti, the first ever minister of economy which proposed what Spain today is proposing, was 15 years ago by
08:42a center-right economist.
08:44Your reaction to that, Max Weber, quite a lot there.
08:46I think it's not a question of party affiliation.
08:48It's a question how to deal with those we want to borrow the money from.
08:53And the financial crisis started not because something went wrong in the government, because those who borrow the countries, in
09:01this case Greece, said,
09:02we do not borrow any cent anymore to your country, because we don't trust that you are able to repay.
09:08And what is the signal we are sending out with Next Generation EU if we discuss with the council who
09:14promised new own resources for repayment?
09:17Nothing has happened since that.
09:18So the market will not trust us.
09:21And then I wish you all the best and good luck to go to the market asking for money, but
09:26refinancing, repayment, who cares?
09:29Sorry, the market will ask for high interest rates for that.
09:32And then it's not a qualified instrument.
09:34You have to do some things, a lot of things before.
09:38And then maybe one can sink.
09:40But at the moment, as we are constructed, it makes no sense.
09:44So you disagree with the Spanish economy minister who says that, in fact, by borrowing a lot of money, 850
09:51billion, actually the interest rates will be very favorable.
09:54He speaks about 5 billion euros per year in interest.
09:58Yeah, but the idea of the Spanish is that those who want to join in are borrowing money, but the
10:04others have to stand for the debts.
10:06And that is not functioning.
10:08Those who borrow the money have to stay for the debts, but if it is only those who cannot afford
10:13the interest rates anymore, they will not have lower interest rates.
10:16So I think that is a calculation which fits on the paper, but not on the markets.
10:21Finally, there's clearly a divide here.
10:23We're seeing it very clearly.
10:25Does that mean that the European Union might need to move differently and a group of countries that do favor
10:31this might need to do it alone without the backing of the 27?
10:34Well, you need to consider that we do have a eurozone.
10:38Within the eurozone, this is something that needs to be done.
10:41You can have a different approach outside of the eurozone, but within the eurozone, this is a common policy.
10:48Again, just because it's missing, not because we want to add something more.
10:52Let me specify one thing.
10:53Everybody probably think that Italy, for instance, is a country which spends more than what it gets.
10:58Actually, it is the opposite.
11:00As all the economists know, the primary surplus of Italy has been in primary surplus for the past 25 years.
11:07As German, Italy is a country which has more export than import, has always had a primary surplus.
11:16It pays a higher cost of debt, which actually is detrimental for the economy because we are paying more interest
11:24than other.
11:24And in a eurozone, this is actually dysfunctional.
11:28It's not needed to say that.
11:30Nobel economists like Mandel, 1992, say that the first thing that Europe need to do is to create a safe
11:36asset.
11:37It works well during the crisis and then you can cope with the calm market in a better way.
11:44Look what's happening today in Germany, but that's what in Italy.
11:47With the industrial crisis, with the automotive sector, which is leaving thousands of people without jobs.
11:54How can we cope with that without a plan like we proposed, the sure plan for automotive, supporting the supply,
12:03supporting the demand and supporting as well the investment in the electric transition.
12:09Chinese, with a soft budget constraint, are doing that and are much more competitive.
12:14And I'm sure we will come back to that and the China issue.
12:18But I must stop you there because that's the end of our first round.
12:22The debate is heating up, I see.
12:24We will continue it.
12:26But it is time for us to move on.
12:28And in the next round, we take the gloves off.
12:35In this round, we give you both the opportunity to directly challenge each other.
12:40I know you've come with your own questions.
12:44So now first, Marcus Ferber, your first question to Pascuale Trinico.
12:48Yeah, Pascuale.
12:49The Spanish paper says that the European Union budget has to guarantee the bonds which are issued,
12:55which means we have to increase the guarantees the member states are granting to the European Union.
13:01Do you really think it is appropriate then to spend it for debts in other member states and not to
13:06spend it directly in the budget?
13:08I don't understand this mechanism.
13:10Marcus, you don't understand because you don't see the Union as a union.
13:14Probably.
13:15If you see the Union staying as part of the Union, then a solidarity mechanism in the Eurozone,
13:21not because we want to be good, but because we want an economy which works,
13:26we need to accept a common debt.
13:28It is not a matter only of solidarity.
13:31It's a matter of a well-built framework and economy.
13:35Again, this is not what we are saying for political preferences.
13:38This is what we say after several economists.
13:43I quoted before Mandel and I quoted Stiglitz.
13:47Actually, they say that the Euro is in crisis exactly because it does not have a safe asset,
13:51which works during the crisis time.
13:54And we saw that it works because safe assets like during COVID, sure, Next Generation Euro,
13:59were exactly done because we miss one structural tool like that and we introduce temporarily.
14:04Now, the proposal is to introduce not temporarily but structurally in order to act when the crisis comes.
14:13Even if you don't have to act, probably the market will be more calm if there is the presence of
14:19a safe asset.
14:20Okay.
14:20And Pascuale Trivico, your first question now to Marcus Feber.
14:24Marcus, we are speaking all the time about resources.
14:27Your question as well was about the resources and how to repay.
14:30Now we know that most of the firms which are doing well and better in the economy are the digital
14:39firms,
14:39firms which are producing, multinational in particular, which are producing digital services in Europe
14:44and we are not taxing them.
14:47We have proposed the web tax in order to collect some common resources.
14:52Again, to shape our economy as well during Christ's time and for a matter of equilibrium.
14:59Would you agree with a web tax?
15:01The problem is a little bit more difficult as we have some member states in the European Union
15:05who have already introduced a so-called digital tax.
15:09Yeah.
15:09And if I ask the finance ministers of these member states, they say,
15:14yes, we are in favor of a digital tax, even European harmonized and how to calculate it,
15:19but I want the money.
15:21And now that is not a helpful tool to address the issue we are discussing today,
15:26because if you want to have that tax as a guarantee for common debts,
15:32then these member states who have already introduced digital tax have to transfer the amounts they are receiving out of
15:40that
15:40to the European Union.
15:42And that's why in the council, no one took it up.
15:45So good luck with an idea where there's no support in the council.
15:48But if I may, for the own resources, there is a debate about gambling sites, for example.
15:53What makes digital corporations different?
15:56Yeah, as I said, we have more than a handful of member states who have already a digital tax for
16:01national budgets.
16:02And therefore, they are not willing to give it up.
16:05To invent new taxes is always a beloved thing by those who are not able to do reforms.
16:09But honestly, if you want to have sustainable growth, you don't have to have higher taxes,
16:14you don't have to have more taxes, you really need incentives for the member states.
16:19And I'm really surprised that those who overrun the European Union with bureaucratic burdens in the last 10 years,
16:25and sorry, you belong to this part of the parliament, are now complaining that we don't create growth anymore.
16:30We have to free our economy.
16:33That's more important than to throw money to them.
16:35OK, we'll come back to that.
16:37I know you had more questions, but that's all we have time for this second round.
16:42Because now it's time to bring in a new voice.
16:49I'd like to now bring in the president of the European Central Bank, Christine Lagarde.
16:54She sat down for an interview with Euronews last week and was asked for her reaction to Spain's proposal for
17:01more joint debt in the EU.
17:04Let's take a listen to what she had to say.
17:06The circumstances have changed and it should lead the leaders of the various member states to consider and to address
17:14what are their concerns.
17:16So I think an ex ante no over my dead body is not the best way to deal with it.
17:22I think the best way to deal with it is to try to analyze what is too much of a
17:27risk and how that risk can be addressed.
17:29So, Marcus Feber, a veiled criticism there of those like you, I believe, who say no outright.
17:36Should we at least debate this more seriously in the EU?
17:40Yeah, but the question is what is the starting point of the discussion?
17:43Is the starting point of the discussion common debts or is it common policies?
17:48Because I read the Spanish proposal that national obligations should be financed by European debts and that will not work.
17:56So we have to take it the other way around.
17:58What can we do together as Europeans?
18:02And that's why I really don't want to be accused not being a federalist in the positive sense because I
18:11am.
18:11But firstly, we have to define what we can do together.
18:15And then we have to speak about the financing and not the other way around.
18:19Let's find finances and finance national obligations.
18:21I want to ask you because Italy is one of the EU countries facing major elections next year, along with
18:28France, Spain, Greece and others.
18:31And do you fear that we could see a shift back to this kind of narrative that economic matters is
18:38a national thing?
18:39It's all about national sovereignty and that could really undermine this push to pull more sovereignty at the EU level.
18:46Look, while we think that economy is a national matter, we are overwhelmed outside by multinationals, which are not national.
18:54So sovereignty of national economy is very much constrained by global in particular by multinationals.
19:00That's why I said before that if we need to define policy, tax policy should be defined as well in
19:07the digital sector.
19:09I'm not saying that resources should not be left to the member states.
19:15Should be coordinated at member states.
19:17Even the harmonization.
19:18We often do a dumping among member states in terms of tax to attract capital from one country to another.
19:26Usually, northern countries try to attract capital with fiscal dumpy, with tax dumpy.
19:32That's why we need a policy.
19:33Policy in terms of digital services, policy in terms of capital taxes, corporate taxes, harmonization.
19:39This is the way to support a federalist idea of Europe.
19:44Okay.
19:45Thank you both.
19:46But it's now time for us to take a break here on The Ring.
19:49But we'll be back with more after this.
19:51So stay with us.
20:00Welcome back to The Ring, Euronews' weekly debate show.
20:05I'm Maret Gwynn and I'm joined this week by Marcus Ferber from the European People's Party
20:09and Pascuale Tridico from the Left Group.
20:13Today, our topic is the state of Europe's economy and the mounting calls on the EU to raise more joint
20:19debt to fund growth.
20:21Behind these calls, of course, is the realization that European growth is stagnating
20:27and that Europe is failing to keep up with major global competitors.
20:32Let's take a closer look at the data.
20:34And we can see here that in terms of real GDP, that's inflation-adjusted gross domestic product,
20:41it's growing at a much higher rate globally than in the EU, but it's also higher in other advanced economies
20:47such as Japan and the US.
20:50We also see stagnation in real GDP in the EU in recent years.
20:54And we know, of course, that in the first quarter of 2026, the eurozone economy, in fact, shrank by 0
21:00.2%.
21:03Now, this is concerning for Europeans and part of the problem is this question of global competitiveness.
21:09We know that China, some would say, is increasingly predatory in its tactics when it comes to trade.
21:16Is the EU doing enough to get tougher on China?
21:20No, we are not doing enough because we are not using the only asset we have, which is the single
21:24market.
21:25And if you look to the figures calculated by the International Monetary Fund,
21:29which says that even in the trade of goods, we hurt ourselves like tariffs of 45%,
21:35which is three times what the US is doing with us, that shows there's a high potential in the single
21:41market.
21:41And we really should use these possibilities to strengthen our home market,
21:46to be less dependent from exports to other regions in the world.
21:50And the other thing means as well to protect ourselves, especially against China,
21:54who is subsidizing its overproduction.
21:57And that is not an entrance key for European Union markets, and we should protect ourselves.
22:02We know all of these arguments. We hear them all the time here in Brussels these days.
22:06The Commission now saying that by October there will be a trade deal or it does get tougher.
22:10Do you believe that that will happen?
22:12Well, I hope so, because I hope that Europe will be more competitive.
22:16However, I would say competitiveness does not come out of the blue.
22:20Competitiveness, of course, comes from investment, from capital, from market.
22:24But there is a big role here that can be played.
22:26In particular, during the face of country, which uses several weapons,
22:32meaning political weapons, economic weapons, such as soft budget,
22:36one of the most important tools which we are missing is the public investment here.
22:40In particular, during transition as the one that we are living.
22:44We are living an ecological transition, an environmental transition.
22:47We are doing nothing to be more competitive, exactly in the same field of China,
22:51which is the electric transition.
22:53Our automotive sector, for instance, is losing step, is losing competitiveness,
22:59exactly because we miss a big player.
23:01Look at the case of Boeing.
23:03They won, sorry, to compete against the Boeing in the United States.
23:08We had a consortium, one single player, like the Airbus, which was more competitive.
23:14And here we had an industrial policy, a European industrial policy in that sector,
23:19in the Airbus sector.
23:21We can have an industrial policy with a plan of at least 500 billion euros,
23:27which support the transition in three ways.
23:30First, supporting demand.
23:31We know that electric cars are higher than RLS,
23:35so we can, for instance, introduce a cut in the VAT for consumption of electric cars.
23:41Second, supply.
23:43Investors are basically afraid, don't know what they do.
23:47There is uncertainty.
23:48We need to say that the electric transition is a must,
23:51but we need to support that, meaning that we need to have credits for tax credits
23:57for firms investing huge tax credits, like the United States did investing in electric cars.
24:05And third, and last, is to support as well employers, meaning workers, sorry.
24:10Workers are suffering during this transition because they are getting in a full-off scheme,
24:17in a suspension of work, in unemployment.
24:20There is a need there to support income because without income there is no demand.
24:25Some interesting ideas there.
24:26Industrial decline is clearly a big concern in Germany.
24:29Do you agree with some of those ideas?
24:31I think our main objectives, our main problems are high energy prices.
24:35The energy market, a real integrated, full integrated energy market could help a lot.
24:40Number two is aging society.
24:43That is a huge challenge for us.
24:45So we have really to invest more in education in our own people.
24:51That is very important.
24:52And number three is, as I said, strengthening the single market.
24:56That are the key objectives to achieve, not finance here, finance here, finance here.
25:01That is not addressing any problem.
25:03OK, so a few areas of common ground, perhaps, but also a lot of disagreement here, I see.
25:10But let me stop you there because now it's time for us to move on to our fifth and final
25:15round.
25:19In our last round, we do something a little different.
25:23I'm going to ask you a series of questions.
25:26And I'm going to ask you to respond with one answer, either yes or no.
25:31Are you ready?
25:33So, first question to you, Pascuale Trívico.
25:35Should the EU embrace joint debt?
25:38Yes, sure.
25:39No.
25:40Marcus, should the EU at least debate Spain's proposal for more joint debt?
25:45No.
25:46Yes, sure.
25:47Should Germany and other frugal states accept higher debt if it boosts European competitiveness?
25:54It will not boost, so no.
25:56Yes, sure.
25:57Should highly indebted countries with high rates of debt and deficit cut spending before
26:04they ask for more support from the EU?
26:06No.
26:07Of course.
26:08Should Europe prioritize competitiveness over balanced budgets?
26:13No, both goes hand in hand.
26:14OK.
26:15But they go together.
26:18And finally, I'd like to ask you both, is there anything you've heard from your opponents
26:22today that has maybe made you change your mind or change your perspective on this debate?
26:29Well, we have spoken about a very specific issue on which actually there is a clear division.
26:37I understand the logic of Marcus, but this does not work in a union like us, which is actually imperfect.
26:48OK.
26:48So we are not adding a tool.
26:50We are completing the union.
26:51And what about you, Marcus Feber?
26:53Anything that Pascuale Trívico has said has maybe changed your mind?
26:56No, because he is speaking about the last step and forget all those steps before.
27:01And I spoke about the first steps to be done.
27:03And then we are on the right track.
27:05OK.
27:06So we haven't cracked the problem of the division of the EU's common debt on the ring this week,
27:11but we've certainly had a good debate on it.
27:14Thank you both.
27:14And that brings us to the end of this edition of the ring.
27:19Thank you again, Pascuale Trívico and Marcus Feber.
27:23Thank you also to you at home for watching.
27:26And remember, you can continue the debate by sending us your thoughts, feedback and comments.
27:32Our email address is thering at euronews.com.
27:35And we'll be back soon with more from the ring.
27:38In the meantime, take care and stay with us here on Euronews.
27:45And we'll be back soon with more from the ring.
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