- hace 2 días
María Camila Moreno Múnera, directora para Colombia del Centro Internacional para la Justicia Transicional (ICTJ), habló con El Espectador sobre las dos primeras sentencias restaurativas que la Sección de Apelación de la JEP dejó en firme. Dos fallos que se enfrentan a un doble reto: los recursos para su financiación y la postura del presidente electo, Abelardo de la Espriella, frente a la justicia transicional. Destacó que investigar, juzgar y sancionar los crímenes más graves ocurridos en el conflicto no es una responsabilidad opcional para el gobierno, sino una obligación de Estado.
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00:10Greetings to all the viewers of El Espectador tuning in to this interview.
00:14In recent weeks, the country's news agenda has been partly focused on the Jurisdiction
00:19The Special Jurisdiction for Peace (JEP), which upheld its first two sentences, one against
00:2312 former soldiers from the La Popa Battalion in Valledupar, Cesar, charged with 135 cases of extrajudicial executions
00:29and another against the seven former members of the last FARC secretariat for more than
00:3421,000 kidnapping cases. The Special Jurisdiction for Peace faces the challenge of implementation
00:40These rulings come in a context of fiscal difficulties, but also in light of the arrival of
00:44a new government that has expressly stated its opposition to the Special Jurisdiction for
00:49Peace. To better understand this situation, we are joined by the director of the International Center.
00:54For Transitional Justice, María Camila Moreno Munera. María Camila, thank you for joining us.
01:00And welcome to El Espectador Interviews.
01:02Thank you so much for the invitation.
01:04Okay, let's move on to the next thing. As I mentioned a moment ago, we have these
01:08The first two final judgments not only mean that compliance begins, so to speak.
01:13on the part of the appearing parties and that their legal situation is resolved, but it is a point,
01:18Let's say, very important for the country in terms of transitional justice. Why are these
01:23Are these decisions key in light of the upcoming JEP rulings? Because we're going to have
01:27one more this month, most likely.
01:29Yes, well, look, the first thing is that both appeal rulings confirm the conviction decisions
01:42of the first instance rulings, and that means that these decisions become final.
01:51The legal truth contained in these rulings is consolidated as indeed the truth.
01:59that establishes the facts, those responsible, the victims, the seriousness and the effects that
02:07These crimes that were committed had repercussions for the victims and for society. So, that's it.
02:12Let's say, it's very important, it's very important to reiterate this. Secondly, it's very important
02:20These sentences also reaffirm the condemnation of such conduct and what
02:30These appeal rulings are reiterating that the following occurred in these two cases:
02:37more serious crimes, crimes against humanity and war crimes, which are also crimes
02:43international crimes, which are precisely the crimes under the jurisdiction of the International Criminal Court.
02:50And I would also say that it is, let's say, a clear example in this special jurisdiction for peace
03:00of the commitment that the Colombian State has acquired to fulfill its obligation to
03:07to investigate, prosecute and punish the most serious crimes, and therefore those within their jurisdiction
03:14of the International Criminal Court. And I would also say, and I think this is because it seems very important to me,
03:20It is now, let's say, the firm decision, which is actually the first time in Colombia
03:28He is convicted of crimes against humanity, which is no small matter, because one could say,
03:33No, but in Justice and Peace rulings it has been mentioned that the crimes constituted crimes
03:40Crimes against humanity, yes, but it turns out that in our Penal Code the crime of crimes against humanity
03:48It doesn't exist; it's not defined as such. And it's only now that we have this special jurisdiction.
03:53For peace and its legal framework, Colombia has already issued final judgments for these crimes.
04:04which are the most serious. On the other hand, these two decisions are also very important.
04:10They are very important because in the review that the appeals section did for, of everything
04:19the process that had been carried out for these two cases, to respond to the concerns,
04:27to the appeals specifically filed by the parties involved in these processes, the victims,
04:35The parties appearing, the prosecutor's office. Indeed, the appeals section establishes certain parameters
04:43and criteria that from now on should guide and direct future rulings.
04:51That's very important because there is, let's say, a kind of analysis and review of the procedures
05:02that were carried out in the section that, in the opinion of the appeals section, should be adjusted
05:12in accordance with what the rule says, and, well, this already establishes, let's say, a clear parameter
05:19which will likely allow the reconnaissance section to advance much more quickly
05:26in the next sentences she receives.
05:29Okay. You bring up a very important issue, and that's the matter of war crimes and...
05:33crimes against humanity included in the sentence, but also that marks, let's say, a roadmap
05:39for the decisions he will have to make from now on, especially after
05:42December of this year, the section with recognition from the Peace Tribunal.
05:46And there is a very important point in these two decisions from the appeals section, and that is
05:51The war crimes that were excluded. In the case of the sentence against the FARC
05:55The crime of slavery was excluded, and in the case of the sentence against the former military personnel
06:01War crimes, torture, and persecution were excluded from the stern section.
06:05How can we explain to the country what it means that the JEP is not recognizing
06:09that these crimes did not occur, but rather there was more of a mix-up
06:13procedural when including them, and that's why this decision remains in the judgment?
06:17Yes, indeed, as you correctly state, that is what the appeals section actually points out
06:24The reason is that these crimes were included in the kidnapping sentence,
06:34the crime of slavery in the case of the stern sentence, of persecution and torture,
06:43What the appeals section says is that the problem lies, in fact it is a problem
06:49procedural, that is, those crimes should have been included in the recognition chamber
07:00of truth and responsibility because that is where those appearing must acknowledge their responsibility.
07:13In the case of those crimes that did not happen; they were incorporated later by the same section
07:21of recognition, therefore that procedural phase of recognition had already been exhausted
07:28of responsibility and the acknowledgment section in accordance with the standard, as it would not have the
07:34competence to somehow do, let's say, the same procedure that should have been done
07:42in the identification room. That's why the appeals section states the facts that would correspond
07:50Let's say those types of crimes are already included in the classifications of crimes against humanity
07:58and war crimes, in particular, for example, refers to things like torture, for example.
08:04would be, or that particular crime, the corresponding facts would be included in the deals
08:11cruel, inhuman, and degrading, for example. So it's not that I'm saying the facts
08:17They didn't happen, but what he's saying is that in that procedural phase that corresponds to
08:23The section with recognition should not have been included because it was not their responsibility.
08:30Let's say that section in the procedural route is established.
08:36Okay, let's shift our focus a bit to the political waters because we're just weeks and days away.
08:41The reason for having a new president in the Casa de Nariño is that the president-elect, Abelardo de la
08:45Espeya has therefore openly stated his position regarding the special jurisdiction for
08:50Peace. What is that outlook, especially given the potential lack of resources it faces?
08:56the jurisdiction for the enforcement of judgments, as stated in the agreement, is
09:00is it the responsibility of the national government, of the executive branch?
09:02Yes, well, I'm feeling a bit more optimistic this week. I think the signal it sends
09:10The designated Minister of Justice, Dr. Iván Cancino, in an interview he gave
09:16Recently, it's a sign, I would say, that's positive and important because of what it's saying
09:24Of course we have concerns that have already been mentioned since
09:30the campaign, but the way forward is somehow to establish a dialogue with the jurisdiction
09:37special for peace in order to establish priorities from now until the end of its
09:44mandate and to be able to review what is being done and, let's say, what is
09:53pending because, as he clearly stated, the new government's concern is about
10:01the efficiency of the Special Jurisdiction for Peace. I hope that this dialogue will lead
10:08that agreed measures will likely be taken for the jurisdiction in this new stage
10:19that comes, let's say, later, in the middle of his term, that he has to do
10:26Make the necessary adjustments to effectively close all processes when
10:35to finish his term. I think that's the purpose and the goal because in some way
10:42Well, that has been the promise made to the country: to be able to bring them to justice.
10:50Well, the most serious crimes, so that all the macro cases that are open in the court can be completed.
10:57of recognition, so that in the end the victims can truly say whether there was justice, that the
11:03sanctions that can be implemented in the best possible way. So I think it's a sign
11:11positive and I think that in that sense we can be, let's say, moderately optimistic.
11:17Regarding that interview you mentioned with Dr. Iván Cancino, the designated minister of
11:22Justice, let's say, also puts on the table a very important term which is dialogue.
11:27So I would like to ask you, regarding that, let's say, that stance of the president that he is now going to take
11:34What advice or what paths can he offer Dr. Cancino, his right-hand man at the Ministry of Justice?
11:40or what alternatives could be put on the table or given to the administration
11:45from the Ministry of Justice as well as the JEP to try to reach agreements, to have a dialogue
11:50on those points on which they do not agree, and that compliance should continue to take precedence.
11:55of the agreement and the fulfillment of the objectives of the JEP.
11:56Yes, well, look, what the JEP has recently said in applying this criterion of strict
12:07The timeframe is that the research phase would end towards the end of this year, that is to say
12:16that all the resolutions and conclusions should arrive from the end of this year onwards
12:25of the macro cases that are open in the court to the section with recognition to start the phase
12:33of judgment. And that's very important because it means that we've effectively closed a phase
12:42which has been long and very important because it has been the gathering of information,
12:51the verification of information, the possibility of listening to the victims, to those responsible,
12:59The meetings and dialogues between the victims and those responsible have ended; in other words, we have closed a chapter.
13:06which has been very, very important and very innovative also in Colombia and in general, let's say, for
13:14the field of transitional justice and we then concentrate on this other phase which is
13:20the trial phase and based on that, the JEP has to analyze which
13:26They're going to be
13:27So the needs in this new phase are probably no longer the same needs
13:32from the research phase. So that's, let's say, a first assessment and prospective analysis.
13:45that the jurisdiction would have to do and that, in my view, should be part of that dialogue
13:51with the government. In other words, what I think we should avoid is a situation in which the
13:57government
13:58intends to impose on the jurisdiction, because in some way decisions that may even go against it
14:10regarding the fulfillment of his mandate as established by law. I believe that here the call and the invitation are...
14:18It is about being able to have a respectful dialogue between the executive branch and a judicial body such as the JEP.
14:28respecting everyone's competencies, but also under the constitutional principle of collaboration
14:35harmony between the different powers of the State, and that's a bit of the dialogue we have here, isn't it?
14:41The executive branch, together with, let's say, an instance of the judicial branch, of justice, with a common purpose
14:50which I believe should undoubtedly guide that dialogue and is one, or rather several, common purposes,
14:59One, that Colombia effectively fulfills its obligation to investigate, prosecute, and punish the most serious crimes,
15:06This is what, for example, the International Criminal Court expects, which is precisely observing how Colombia is progressing.
15:14in fulfilling that obligation and, very importantly, ensuring its full validity and implementation
15:26of the rights of victims to truth, justice, reparation and guarantees of non-repetition.
15:32A justice system that also has a particularity or a special stamp, and that is that we must not forget
15:40which is a justice for peace and reconciliation. Hopefully, the end result will be, I insist,
15:49It should also guide that constructive dialogue between the government and the people.
15:53We were just talking last September about justice with a qualifier, about justice for peace,
15:58But I want to play devil's advocate a little bit on this question,
16:03because the Comptroller's Office has said that complying with the rulings could cost up to 500 billion,
16:08The Agency for Reintegration and Normalization says it doesn't have such clear figures on those accounts.
16:13because it will depend a lot on the process and what is defined, and the Peace Agreement says,
16:19As I mentioned a moment ago, the execution, let's say, guarantees that they are executed
16:23And ensuring there is money to implement them is the responsibility of the Executive branch.
16:26Where could that money come from if the Executive, in a case like this,
16:31He has opposed the JEP to the point of saying he would close it down.
16:34even though we know that constitutionally he cannot do so?
16:38Yes, well, that's a very important question, and I think that's like squaring the circle.
16:44that we have to judge. But let's say there are several elements here to consider.
16:51First, the appeals court rulings, of course, make a very important contribution
17:01This debate is about the sanctions that are coming to fruition, both in the case of the FARC and in the case of
17:08the STEM.
17:09Even in the case of the FARC, it establishes concrete projects and incorporates the proposals made by the victims.
17:20In the procedure in the examination room, establish indicators to measure effectiveness
17:28and the progress of those projects that will constitute the sanctions.
17:35Furthermore, it establishes a timeline, a plan. In other words, we now have a much clearer foundation.
17:44which will allow us to accurately quantify the resources that will be required for the next eight
17:55years
17:56to comply with both the FARC sentence and the POPA sentence.
18:02And that wasn't so clear with the first instance rulings.
18:07So that's very useful for the dialogue that the JEP needs to have with the Executive branch on the issue
18:16of the resources.
18:16A second idea is also that compliance with the sanctions and ensuring that those sanctions will actually be enforced
18:30achieve
18:31It is part of those obligations of the State that I was mentioning to you.
18:36It is not only that there is a conviction, but that there is a genuinely established sanction that is also executed and verified.
18:50And that is not only a responsibility of the JEP, it is a responsibility of the Colombian State.
18:57In other words, if at any point it is the International Criminal Court or the Inter-American Court of Human Rights
19:07It asks the Colombian State to be held accountable for its compliance with that obligation to investigate, prosecute and punish those
19:17crimes
19:18Since these are international crimes, it's not just going to ask the jurisdiction.
19:23He is going to ask the State as a whole.
19:26So that's the first thing to keep in mind, and something to remind the new person of as well.
19:31government.
19:31This is not a question of whether they liked it, or whether they agreed or disagreed with the peace agreement.
19:38whether they agree with the JEP or not.
19:40There is an obligation that Colombia has to fulfill.
19:44And the International Criminal Court is more.
19:46The Office of the Prosecutor of the International Criminal Court, when it signed the, what is this called?
19:54The memorandum of understanding, the agreement, or the memorandum of understanding with the Colombian State,
20:00Well, what he's saying is, we'll be paying close attention.
20:03We have completed the preliminary examination and are now entering a technical assistance phase.
20:09but also observation of how the jurisdiction will effectively fulfill the obligation that the Colombian State has.
20:19And we will be observing how effectively that which you, the Colombian State and Colombian institutions,
20:27They said what they were going to do with the JEP, and it will be done.
20:29So, there is a responsibility here for everyone.
20:33Of course, we have a huge challenge related to the budget and the financial and fiscal situation of
20:45country.
20:45So, even so, I believe that the Colombian State is called upon to make whatever efforts are necessary.
20:56to ensure that the resources to implement those sanctions will exist.
21:02And these first two sanctions, and especially in the case of FARC, this first sanction against the secretary of
21:10the FARC,
21:11Well, it's very important because these are sanctions that will last seven or eight years.
21:18which is the maximum time allowed by the regulations for sanctions, and they are cumulative.
21:26In other words, it's not eight years plus eight years, but these are the eight years.
21:30Therefore, the effort must be ensured so that these sanctions can be met within those eight years.
21:40We are talking about two governments, this government and the next one.
21:43which is the period that these first sentences will cover.
21:51That's interesting.
21:52We would almost be talking about a logic of future validity periods for compliance with the sanctions.
21:59There's a topic you mentioned a moment ago, and that is, of course,
22:02If we look at Colombia as it has been since peace negotiations began in La
22:08Havana
22:08and as it has been regarding the JEP, which is also an international model of transitional justice,
22:12Well, they're not just going to ask the justice sector what happened, what its response is,
22:16Instead, they will ask the Colombian State.
22:18Furthermore, there are court rulings and case law indicating that,
22:22In some ways, cutting resources from the justice sector can be understood or interpreted
22:28as an obstruction to justice itself.
22:30Do you think Colombia could be facing a scenario like that?
22:34Given the possibility of an attack or obstruction of justice by the Executive branch?
22:39Well, I would honestly hope not.
22:41I believe that the designated Minister of Justice is someone who knows very well
22:47What are the obligations of the Colombian State in the fight against impunity?
22:53What are Colombia's international commitments in the Rome Statute and others?
23:00And he knows that, well, a principle, let's say, is more, a principle of the rule of law and the Constitution,
23:09Furthermore, the new government has repeatedly stated that there is a serious commitment
23:16to comply with the Constitution and the law, since it is the separation of powers and the independence of the judiciary.
23:24So, part of that respect for the rule of law means respecting the independence of the judiciary.
23:31and to avoid any action or decision that puts the independence of the judiciary at risk,
23:39that puts at risk, let's say, the autonomy of the judiciary.
23:46and therefore a cut in resources that prevents the jurisdiction from doing its job,
23:54because it could clearly be interpreted as an obstruction of justice
23:59and an attack on its independence.
24:03And I believe, and I hope we don't reach that point,
24:07But it is important to remember that there is a constitutional and conventional obligation that must be fulfilled.
24:16There are many people who, in the context of the presidential campaign that has just ended,
24:20but also in the context of the two rulings of the JEP's appeals section
24:25They have talked about what the JEP costs.
24:26One of those people is former senator Humberto de la Calle,
24:29who was also part of the team that designed the peace agreement
24:34and he said that the JEP is very expensive.
24:38What is your analysis of that reading of how much the JEP costs?
24:43And how much does the JEP contribute to the country in terms of transitional justice?
24:47Yes, that's a complex issue because it's difficult, let's say, to put it in black and white.
24:58Of course, there is concern from many sectors about the cost-benefit ratio.
25:05So, in a very, shall we say, simplistic and easy analysis,
25:12Well, one could say that the JEP costs a lot.
25:18It has cost us a great deal over these eight years and we only have four rulings.
25:24Of course, if you put it in those terms, which are very sensational, let's say, for the public,
25:30Well, one says, yes, indeed cost-benefit analysis is complicated there.
25:35But if you take into account the type of work that the jurisdiction does
25:40And what has been achieved in these eight years, in addition to the four sentences,
25:46Well, the cost-benefit relationship also needs to be nuanced and made more complex.
25:53The JEP has had to investigate crimes involving thousands of victims,
26:04Dozens of people responsible and thousands of incidents.
26:10In other words, we are dealing with phenomena of massive scale here.
26:17which is generally one of the, let's say, major challenges in Colombia
26:23and anywhere in the world facing transitional justice.
26:26That is why we resort to extraordinary mechanisms such as the Special Jurisdiction for Peace
26:34to resolve and address extraordinary phenomena such as massification
26:40of serious human rights violations,
26:43the massive number of violations of international humanitarian law.
26:47So, it's not comparable, that is, if you will.
26:52or if one were to even try to compare, for example,
26:55the budget that the Supreme Court of Justice has
26:57versus the budget that the jurisdiction receives, because it is not comparable.
27:01While the Supreme Court also has an enormous workload,
27:06It has so many cases, it's not comparable to, let's say,
27:11the number of incidents, the number of victims that the jurisdiction has to deal with.
27:19So, as I said, it's not a black and white discussion.
27:24Now, I insist, the JEPA is entering a new phase
27:30And in principle one might say it won't need the same resources,
27:36probably others, but it won't have the same needs
27:41and that could eventually lead to a significant decrease,
27:45Let's say, the costs of the JEP.
27:48And that has to be part of the conversation.
27:51But it has to be a conversation and, above all, decisions.
27:54that are based on serious and rigorous analysis
27:57and not with, let's say, these ideas that become ingrained in the collective imagination
28:03and that they are not problematized and that, on the contrary,
28:06They end up affecting everyone: the victims, the perpetrators,
28:11to the jurisdiction, to society.
28:15Let's say the central point of the peace agreement,
28:18but also of the special jurisdiction for peace,
28:20I don't want it to be left out of this conversation,
28:24The victims are at the center of it all, aren't they?
28:26And in the end, then, the satisfaction of the victims' rights,
28:30which are millions in the country, is at the center of the JEP's rulings.
28:34Being a little pessimistic,
28:36if the resources for the enforcement of the judgments were not guaranteed,
28:39which are different from the operating resources of the JEP,
28:42nor would the effective enforcement of the sentences be achieved,
28:46What good will all this effort have done for the country then?
28:49What has he done in the years he has held the jurisdiction?
28:52Yes, that's a dilemma, of course.
28:55That is a dilemma that also has several perspectives
28:59Or there are different ways, let's say, of looking at it.
29:04The outcome of any transitional justice process
29:08It should be, in theory,
29:10that in the end the victims feel vindicated
29:17and that they feel that their rights are indeed respected.
29:21were guaranteed.
29:22That is to say, at the end of such a great effort
29:25like the one that has been done in Colombia,
29:28in budgetary terms, in terms of public policy,
29:31Well, anyway,
29:32in the end the victims can say
29:34Yes, there was justice.
29:37But again,
29:39That's not black and white either.
29:42because justice,
29:43although the sentences
29:44because they are very important
29:47because it is, let's say,
29:49the moment when
29:50in which justice is pronounced
29:54about the reproach
29:56because of the serious misconduct that was committed,
30:00that those responsible are condemned,
30:02that is established
30:04in a rigorous and legal manner
30:06What happened?
30:08That's also true
30:09that to arrive at the sentences
30:11There is a very important process
30:13that occurs in the Special Jurisdiction for Peace
30:16very innovative
30:18in which, for example,
30:20those responsible
30:22They acknowledge their responsibility.
30:24in front of the victims,
30:26You have been at some of the hearings
30:28where that has happened,
30:29That has immense value.
30:33So it's no longer just about seeing
30:36that the one responsible in the end
30:37He has a conviction,
30:39but the victim also
30:41can say that during the process
30:44to arrive at that conviction
30:45That person in charge looked me in the eyes
30:48and said
30:49I am responsible
30:51and I even apologize.
30:52That is also part of justice.
30:55Then we can't stay
30:58in traditional indicators
31:00equal justice sentence,
31:04equal justice condemns,
31:06Of course it's part of it
31:08and a very important part,
31:09but also justice
31:11It's what happens before.
31:13for what has been done
31:15a huge effort
31:17for that to flow,
31:19for that to happen,
31:20a huge job
31:22of preparing the victims,
31:24of the preparation of those responsible
31:26that in the end
31:27It also has a result
31:29that for the reconciliation of the country
31:31It is very important
31:32And it dignifies everyone,
31:35dignifies the victims,
31:37It dignifies those responsible,
31:40allows reconstruction
31:40those ties
31:41that broke
31:42because of the violence
31:43And that's no small matter.
31:45Because I insist,
31:46as I told you
31:47in other interviews,
31:49This is justice.
31:49for peace.
31:51But,
31:51Well, we would be doing
31:52the same thing he does
31:53any court of law.
31:55I'm going to make a small change
31:56Now, to wrap up the interview,
31:57a slight thematic twist
31:59on the topic
32:00of the change of government,
32:01that we were only days and weeks away.
32:05We had many tables
32:06open negotiations
32:07during the government
32:08from President Gustavo Petro
32:09that did not have the results
32:10let's say that
32:11to expectations
32:12that the country had.
32:13I would like to ask you
32:14if there is a possibility
32:15with what we have seen
32:16so far
32:17of some appointments
32:18but also
32:18of the hardline policy
32:20that announced
32:20the president-elect
32:21Abelardo de la Espella,
32:22if there is a possibility
32:23that during this term
32:25that begins
32:25there is at least
32:27an attempt
32:27to seek negotiated solutions
32:28to the armed conflict
32:29in the country.
32:31Well, let's see,
32:34Well, if we stick to
32:35to what he said
32:36the president-elect
32:39during the campaign
32:41and well, once
32:44and then let's say
32:46of the second round
32:47already elected as president
32:50because their priority
32:52It would seem
32:53mostly
32:54if not exclusively
32:56the military exit.
32:59However,
33:00he also said
33:01and this
33:02has
33:04explained
33:05in a way
33:06in my opinion
33:06positive
33:07the new minister
33:08of justice
33:09And that's because
33:10anyway
33:11it remains
33:13the path
33:15of submission.
33:16That is to say,
33:17It would seem here
33:18that there
33:18Let's say a formula
33:19combined
33:20between
33:22pressure
33:24military
33:24and a possibility
33:27of submission
33:29of these structures
33:30with the aim
33:31indeed
33:32to dismantle them.
33:35So,
33:36that's what we'd say
33:36in my opinion
33:37already introduces
33:38a nuance
33:39that suddenly
33:40we didn't see
33:40so clearly
33:41during the campaign.
33:44And I believe
33:45that this has to do
33:46And I'm already saying it.
33:47let's say
33:48as
33:49as
33:49ICTJ
33:52not because
33:53he said it
33:54the new government
33:56until now
33:56and it is the
33:57need
33:59return
33:59to this idea
34:00of the triad
34:01justice
34:03peace
34:04security.
34:06I believe
34:07that the experience
34:08Colombian
34:09what is
34:09delicious
34:10so much
34:11in conflict
34:12as in processes
34:13peace
34:13has shown us
34:15that
34:17these three elements
34:19They must go hand in hand.
34:21An effort
34:22peace
34:23which does not include
34:25from the beginning
34:27and in a way
34:28let's say
34:28I would be
34:29the component
34:30of justice
34:31It is peace.
34:32that it will have
34:33serious problems
34:35to materialize
34:36but additionally
34:38a strategy
34:40peace
34:40that it is not
34:41aligned
34:42to a strategy
34:43security
34:43well too
34:45has problems
34:46to establish
34:47For example
34:48incentives
34:49and disincentives
34:50at the time
34:51to establish
34:53dialogues
34:54or negotiations.
34:56So
34:57I believe
34:57that
34:58and it would be
34:59an invitation
35:00what would he do
35:01respectfully
35:02to the new government
35:03is to think
35:04in that triad.
35:05I think that
35:06the signal
35:07of
35:07we are going to present
35:09a law
35:09of submission
35:12we would be
35:13willing
35:14to maintain
35:14the dialogue
35:15with the actors
35:16for submission
35:18because it's happening to us
35:19indicating
35:19which indeed
35:20are considering
35:22seriously
35:22and from the beginning
35:23the component
35:25of justice.
35:26They already have
35:27spoken
35:27of course
35:28widely
35:29of the strategy
35:31security
35:31and the different
35:33components
35:33that would
35:34of course
35:35That's it.
35:35in development
35:38maybe
35:40would have
35:41to do
35:41part
35:41from that analysis
35:42that this
35:43combination
35:44justice
35:45security
35:47and some
35:48strategy
35:49dialogue
35:49is what we
35:50will allow
35:51achieve
35:52in the end
35:53peace
35:53which is what
35:53we all want
35:54It is an obligation
35:56constitutional
35:58And I think that
36:00Colombia
36:00has
36:00many
36:01lessons
36:01learned
36:02as for
36:03can
36:03incorporate
36:04to any
36:05let's say
36:05strategy
36:06or design
36:07Let it be done
36:08I want
36:09be optimistic
36:11And I want to think
36:11that
36:13reality
36:14in Colombia
36:15It's a reality
36:16so complex
36:18that leaves
36:20to finish
36:20imposing
36:21and?
36:22in the end
36:22He's going to have it
36:23What can I say?
36:24reality
36:25same
36:25to the country
36:26to society
36:26and to the government
36:27This is not
36:29one way
36:30Here we need
36:31the combination
36:32of these
36:33strategies
36:34to achieve
36:35the purpose
36:36that is to say
36:36I would be
36:37justifiable
36:38and reasonable
36:38or definitely
36:40not what
36:41the candidate
36:41to talk about the
36:42precious
36:42he called during the campaign
36:43the iron fist
36:44so in a term
36:45very specific
36:46in a country
36:47with an experience
36:48of violence
36:49of many years
36:49or you can't find it
36:51not at all
36:51Well, look
36:52what for me
36:53I could
36:54understand
36:55like logic
36:56that is behind
36:57indeed
36:59We have a problem
37:01of violence
37:02and insecurity
37:03in many regions
37:04of the country
37:04That's obvious.
37:05There is a control
37:07territorial
37:08that they are exercising
37:10the different
37:11armed groups
37:12authoritarian controls
37:15about the population
37:16civil
37:18There is an increase
37:21of the economies
37:22of the economies
37:22illicit
37:23and this relationship
37:25among these groups
37:26of the crime
37:26transnational
37:27We have a problem
37:28clearly
37:29that is
37:30inescapable
37:33but an answer
37:35only
37:36with a firm hand
37:37What worries me
37:39particularly
37:39is the cost
37:40that it will have
37:41for the communities
37:42the humanitarian cost
37:44with an iron fist
37:45because we've already lived through it
37:46It's nothing new.
37:48that is being invented
37:49we already know
37:50that could mean
37:52for more technology
37:54that there is
37:56in the end
37:57those who finish
37:58paying
37:59the
37:59the
38:00consequences
38:01one way or another
38:02policy
38:03They are the communities
38:04who are tired
38:05of the war
38:06who are tired
38:06of violence
38:07who are tired
38:09that the State
38:09I promise them
38:10and promise them
38:11and he doesn't fulfill their promises
38:12total peace
38:13It was a promise
38:14unfulfilled
38:15and that same State
38:17because the State
38:17nothing has changed
38:18It's the same
38:18the government changed
38:19but the State
38:20It remains the same
38:21the answer
38:22again
38:22of that State
38:23in addition to
38:24He already failed to deliver.
38:25It is also
38:26the iron fist
38:27and all the effects
38:28humanitarians
38:29in the region
38:30So I think
38:31That's for sure.
38:32we would have to
38:34consider it
38:35think about it
38:36I think that
38:37any strategy
38:38security
38:39today
38:39ought
38:41have in the center
38:42protection
38:42of the communities
38:43as a priority
38:44and then
38:45To finish up
38:46what to tell her
38:47to those communities
38:47tired
38:48to those millions
38:50of victims
38:50that they are looking for
38:52justice
38:52TRUE
38:52repair
38:53guarantees
38:54non-repetition
38:54and the minimum guarantee
38:56to live in peace
38:57what message
38:57I think that
38:58have
38:59Of course
39:00from the communities
39:01but from society
39:02as a whole
39:03Because, look at that
39:04than in the cities
39:05well yes
39:06There still is
39:07a distance
39:08enormous
39:09with what happens
39:10in the territories
39:11we failed
39:13like people
39:14of the cities
39:15connect
39:18even emotionally
39:20with what's happening to him
39:21to many communities
39:22in this country
39:23that they have to live
39:24day after day
39:26these situations
39:27of violence
39:29and control
39:31of the different
39:32armed groups
39:33so
39:34Well, it has to be.
39:35also a demand
39:37of the whole of society
39:38and of course
39:39accompany
39:40to the communities
39:41in their lawsuit
39:42for real
39:43for justice
39:44for repair
39:45and for guarantees
39:45non-repetition
39:46the experience
39:48compared
39:49in the world
39:50the same experience
39:52Colombian
39:52Well, it tells us
39:54again and again
39:55that a peace
39:56without truth
39:57a peace
39:58without justice
39:59a peace
40:00without repair
40:01Well, it's peace.
40:03fragile
40:04a peace
40:04which is not sustainable
40:05so
40:06I think that
40:07We have to keep going
40:08insisting
40:09again and again
40:10And I believe that
40:11those of us who believe
40:12in the solution
40:14negotiated policy
40:15Well, we have to
40:16keep insisting
40:16with this government
40:18with the next
40:19and with whomever
40:20María Camila Moreno
40:22Múnera
40:22director of
40:23International Centre
40:24for Justice
40:24Transitional
40:25ICTJ
40:26Thank you for joining us
40:27in interviews
40:27of the viewer
40:28thanks to you
40:29as usual
40:29thank you so much
40:30thank you for the invitation
40:31Thank you very much as well.
40:32to all people
40:32that connected
40:33with this interview
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