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00:02Hello, welcome to Copper Independent, the Independence World Cup podcast.
00:06I'm Lawrence Osler and I'm joined by Chief Football Writer Miguel Delaney in Atlanta.
00:11Hello.
00:11And Senior Sports Writer Kieran Jackson back in the UK.
00:15Hello.
00:16So we've just watched Spain dismantle France in the first World Cup semi-final.
00:21Two nil winners.
00:23We will come to discuss England and Argentina a bit later on in the podcast.
00:27Miguel, you're going to that game.
00:28But let's talk about Spain and France.
00:32Miguel, we discussed it the other day.
00:35We felt like it could be a game where Spain could be France's kryptonite and the way they keep the
00:40ball in it certainly turned out that way.
00:42I think it was beyond the kryptonite.
00:43It wasn't really kind of Spain preying on any weakness.
00:46I think the performance of the tournament so far, by far, I think they just basically, like, this is one
00:53thing I have to mention.
00:54Obviously, we were very, I believe our preview was spot on and we called it quite well.
01:02But, like, I was stunned by some of the build-up to this game and the way France were being
01:08spoken off as if they were overwhelming favourites and Spain were some sort of underdog.
01:13I thought, like, I could, I genuinely couldn't believe it.
01:16Especially with, like, like, okay, form played into a little bit, but that's form.
01:19It's not, like, the idea what these two sides are as teams.
01:24And it was always going to be obvious that Spain were going to control the ball.
01:28The big question with France, of course, and, like, we flagged this ourselves.
01:32We wrote about it that France had two in midfield.
01:35That Deshaun was going to have to change that.
01:37And just from all that, like, there's been a lot of discussion of France didn't turn up.
01:41I don't think it's a case of that at all.
01:43I think Spain basically just rendered them irrelevant.
01:46I think why it was such a good performance was that it was just Spain imposing their game.
01:54And, like, it's in a way that no one else has done.
01:57But that, I think, is also because no one else at this tournament has an idea like Spain.
02:02And, look, it's not to say that they'll go on and win the final because the final's a one-off
02:06game and it can happen.
02:06If Spain don't get that early penalty, maybe that game evolves differently because of the way Spain have this issue
02:12if they don't score first or early.
02:15But it was a really outstanding performance.
02:18And I suppose it speaks to something else about World Cups as well.
02:21That Spain's 2010 display was also kind of a part of, and that Italy have illustrated in the past, that
02:27it isn't how you start.
02:28It's about making sure you're there and then growing into it.
02:31Well, 2010, it reminded me of that a little bit in the sense of it was Germany, wasn't it, who
02:35came through so sort of impressively.
02:37And they felt like they were the best team, potentially, coming into the semi-final.
02:40And Spain, was it 1-0 as well?
02:42Yeah, but that was another 1-0 that was basically a 3-4-0.
02:47Like, Spain were so dominant in that game.
02:49It's just the goal didn't come until late.
02:51Yeah, and I have to agree with you on the pundits.
02:54I don't know what it was like on, I presume you were watching on Fox Sports there in the US.
02:58Yes, on ITV, and I mentioned this on our WhatsApp group before the game, that the pundits were very negative
03:04about Spain's chances.
03:06It seemed bizarre.
03:08Vieira saying, obviously Vieira's French, but he was saying that Spain would need to play a 12 out of 10
03:14performance to have any chance of beating France.
03:16Gary Neville said something along the lines of, I can't see any way, I can't picture a way in which
03:21Spain will be able to defeat France.
03:23Roy Keane sort of suggested maybe if there's a red card or a penalty, as if Spain might need a
03:28bit of luck.
03:29And there was a penalty, but it was, as you said, Miguel, it wasn't luck.
03:33Yamal won that penalty, didn't he, rather than Dinia necessarily giving it away?
03:38Well, it's really the intelligence of you.
03:39Sorry, before Kieran comes in.
03:40Yeah, that's fucking, yeah.
03:41It was the intelligence of Yamal in that he saw which way he was going and he knew, like, you
03:46could see the play.
03:47And also, that was a product from Spain already beginning to impose themselves in the game.
03:51But yeah, like, I mean, so Keane is, of the three of those, Keane is the most right, or the
03:57least wrong.
03:58Yeah, it's true.
03:59I think life comes at you quite quickly on this podcast.
04:02Me saying that France could dominate and win comfortably, that was a prediction, wasn't it?
04:07Jesus.
04:08I wasn't going to mention it, but you probably have to.
04:09No, no, no, no, I've got to own it.
04:11I think, I think it showed two things to me.
04:13I mean, firstly, we talk about Laminya Mao on the last podcast about how he hasn't really shone yet,
04:17and he hasn't had that star performance, he had it tonight.
04:20Like, he was really outstanding.
04:23I mean, coming up against Luka Dean, you always felt sorry for Dean.
04:26You just, the incompatibility for him to deal with Yamal's pace, his turn of speed, his trickery on the ball.
04:32It's such a shame that that third goal, Yamal's goal, was disallowed for that faintest of offsides,
04:37because that would have capped a stunning performance.
04:40And I think the other aspect to it, to me, was that, because everyone, including us, to an extent on
04:46the podcast,
04:46are eulogising about France so much, maybe they peaked too early in this tournament.
04:50Maybe this kind of slump was always going to come.
04:53They looked kind of just insipid, slow, uninspiring.
04:57Their midfield were overrun.
04:58And I would have just re-watched the second goal and the build-up to the second goal,
05:02where I think Dani Olmo just runs 30, 40 yards through midfield to more or less the edge of the
05:07box,
05:07completely unchallenged, beyond Rabiot, beyond Chumaini.
05:11And that front four didn't want to track back.
05:14And, you know, Spain's extra man, you know, the way they keep the ball, it just holds so well.
05:19And, yeah, they've peaked at just the right time, haven't they?
05:22And also maybe battle-hardened.
05:24I think that counts for something.
05:25They've beaten Portugal and Belgium.
05:27Tougher test than Lawrence's Sweden or Paraguay or Morocco.
05:32So I think that probably helped Spain as well.
05:34I think their game management, particularly when they went 2-0 up, was superb.
05:39And, yeah, I mean, deserved winners.
05:41And, boy, they made a statement ahead of England-Argentina as well.
05:44I mean, that puts them as the favourites even before the second semi-final, I think.
05:49One thing I slightly disagree with what you said, Miguel, about France.
05:53I do think they didn't turn up a little bit.
05:57Like, there were some very simple passes that just went awry.
06:00Things that, like, Kylian Mbappe at one point, I think it was Dini making an overlapping run
06:04and he just passed it to a Spanish defender.
06:06There was one at the end where Due just had a really simple pass to, I think it was,
06:11Thierry Hernandez had come off the bench and made an underlapping run.
06:13And he overhit it and Unai Simon was able to slide out and intercept.
06:18There were several things like that which they hadn't been doing in previous games.
06:21And certainly Spain takes some credit for how badly France played.
06:26But France also didn't turn up.
06:29And they seemed really like a team of individuals,
06:31which is maybe a kind of obvious thing to say when you reflect on a game like that.
06:34But there was no cohesion between Dembele, Mbappe, Barca, like they were all just doing their own thing,
06:41it felt like to me.
06:42And obviously the injury did affect them as well, like Saliba coming off.
06:46Maxine Lacroix, he was just watched that goal happen around him,
06:50like Pedro Poro run around him.
06:52Dini gets pulled out of position by Laminio Marr,
06:54which is something I think you mentioned yesterday or a couple of days ago, Kieran,
06:58and talking about how Laminio Marr, or perhaps one of you guys mentioned,
07:03sort of him taking up two defenders and, you know, distracting players.
07:07He can wear them out, even if he's not scoring goals.
07:10And he sort of did that as well, I felt.
07:12But yeah, one thing I was going to ask you, Miguel,
07:15were you surprised that Deschamps didn't play three in midfield?
07:18I didn't put Kone in from the start, for example, and drop Barca.
07:21Yeah, absolutely stunned, I have to say,
07:23especially someone who is an inherent pragmatist like Deschamps.
07:27The one thing about those, do you not think some of that
07:29is like a product of the game itself?
07:31That suddenly France realise they're in a different game,
07:33so they're not feeling natural.
07:35So that sort of comes down to Spain a little bit.
07:38But I think you're right, I was stunned, I couldn't believe it.
07:40We talked about it beforehand, and like,
07:42I'd written two pieces about this beforehand,
07:44that it had been on French minds,
07:47that Spain were going to be the big challenge, tactically.
07:50I think they consider Argentina the big psychological challenge
07:53because of the 2022 final and all of the context between them.
07:57Or all of that emotion between them.
08:00But, I mean, I think what's so striking about the game is
08:04it was as if France almost believed their own hype a little bit
08:09in that they just went out and played as if this is a normal game that we've had.
08:15Which also maybe fits a little bit with some of the punditry.
08:18As if they didn't consider that Spain is going to be a different approach.
08:21Which, you know, not trusted themselves too much.
08:24Because I think it's like what Spain do is also trust their own talent.
08:27But really, like the modern game is obviously beyond that now.
08:30And maybe it shows a little bit Deschamps' own limitations in that way.
08:35In the same way, he looked kind of a spent force in 2024,
08:39or at least his football did.
08:40He tried something different.
08:41But we do, ultimately, even that has exposed maybe certain tactical limitations.
08:45And let's not forget, he's been in charge of a team that is a consequence of a football factory, basically.
08:52Like, they produce more talent.
08:54And I would say more different talent in terms of positions than anywhere else in the world.
08:59And he's won one World Cup.
09:00I mean, suddenly that looks a bit underwhelming.
09:04And that's despite kind of being in two World Cup finals.
09:08And even in this game, he reacted very slowly.
09:11The one time that France actually kind of had a little bit of a grip at the game
09:14was from about 80 minutes when he brought on Hernandez.
09:18Rabiot was taken off.
09:20And I think it seems clear he should have made that much earlier.
09:23And it was obvious by 80 minutes, like, why didn't he act earlier?
09:26I think that sub was obvious because of how much Dinho was struggling.
09:29I also found it interesting, just as a comparison of the previous time in the World Cup
09:34where France were really struggling in that final in 2022
09:36when he shook it up and made a double substitution, I think even before half-time.
09:40He put Colin Mouane on up front for a bit of pace and put Mbappe out on the left.
09:44He just had Mateta and Churam sitting on the bench today when he was in need of a goal.
09:49And there were times in the last 20 minutes where France had the ball.
09:52Mbappe was so desperate to make something happen by himself that he dropped deep.
09:55And France had no one in the penalty area.
09:57Yeah. So, you know, given you had two number nines on the bench,
10:00it's a bit like England going 2-0 down and not even thinking of using Watkins and Tony,
10:05which actually Tuchel hasn't done yet.
10:07But do you see what I mean? I found that a bit interesting as well.
10:09On the flip side of that, Spain's substitutions were, I mean, they obviously worked,
10:14but they were very impressive.
10:16I haven't really stopped to consider just how strong it is to be able to bring on Torres,
10:21Pedri, Mourinho, Niko Williams, I think, came on as well, didn't he?
10:25It's such a strong collection of players that they can bring on to change a final few minutes
10:32and obviously extra time as well, which is perhaps slightly concerning if you're England or Argentina,
10:36but we're getting ahead of ourselves.
10:37One question I wanted to... Sorry, go on, Miguel.
10:40I suppose this is another thing with Spain that fits into this theme that we've touched on already
10:43about kind of growing into a tournament.
10:45Because I think it's not just players that are doing that in terms of individual form.
10:49Like, Rodri looks different to a month ago.
10:51A month? I mean, it's been a long tournament.
10:54Cucurella has obviously gone into it.
10:56Danny Almo, I think, has been superb.
10:58Yamal is better than he was, obviously, fitness is an issue there.
11:00But also they're getting some of the players back as well.
11:03Like, Niko Williams, I think, has been a threat in both matches.
11:06And obviously, he makes such a difference to the team tactically.
11:09And again, you mentioned getting ahead of yourselves.
11:11Like, in the same way people did with France,
11:14we now shouldn't overstate what Spain are going into the final.
11:17Because it is a final.
11:19And I have to say, you're looking at Spain's record,
11:21so that everyone's making a lot of...
11:23It's 37 games unbeaten now.
11:25Well, there's one more famous example of that in a World Cup.
11:28And it was a better team than France, than this France.
11:31Probably the best team to ever win the World Cup.
11:33That was Hungary in 1954.
11:35Who then went into that final and lost.
11:37So, I wouldn't get ahead of ourselves on that in terms of how Spain good...
11:42Sorry, in terms of how good Spain are.
11:45But obviously, they're in very good shape.
11:47And I think whoever plays them in the final,
11:50it's obviously going to be the biggest...
11:51And rightly, I'd say, given it is the World Cup final,
11:54the biggest possible challenge you're going to have.
11:56Just one more question on this game for you guys.
11:59We discussed in the previous podcast how this was almost a bit of a tactical hinge moment,
12:05potentially, with the more relationist-style player that Deschamps has adopted
12:10versus the classic positional Spanish template that Spain obviously use.
12:15Possession and counter-pressing and all the rest of it.
12:17But how significant, then, is this match in that context?
12:22And might we look back on this game and feel like it's a very significant moment
12:27in the direction of relationist football and whether people adopt it
12:32and keep pushing on with it and it becomes more and more prominent in Europe
12:36or whether it starts to fade a little bit?
12:39I don't necessarily think so, just because of the fact that...
12:42Like, already we can see the positional game fracturing in club football.
12:45And it's partly related to this and the fact that...
12:47It probably, like...
12:49Just because of how it amplifies what a team is, as opposed to what an individual is,
12:52I think it will stay the dominant form but won't be kind of hegemonic in the same way.
12:58Because, like, ultimately, no one in international football can play like Spain.
13:02And similarly, I think there's been a realisation in club football of...
13:05If you don't have the players to do it...
13:07Like, in the way a city do, or a Barcelona,
13:12then you're better off kind of investigating other tactical avenues.
13:17And I think you'll see more hybrid systems.
13:19But maybe this is kind of just affirms it's...
13:22Well, again, let's see how the final goes.
13:24We could be having a very different debate after that.
13:27The only thing I suppose is it doesn't really feel like England or Argentina
13:30are indicative of any greater idea, does it?
13:33Other than kind of what international football is now,
13:36which is mostly quite disparate and enjoyably erratic with stars dominating.
13:41Well, what I would say, Lawrence, is that I don't think England or Argentina,
13:46when they get to the final, could possibly play as poorly as France did today.
13:49So, like, from a point of view of placing too much emphasis on the stars of play,
13:53like, France was so poor at doing the basics wrong
13:56that you'd think they'd give a bit of a sterner test to Spain.
13:59Just for info, Miguel, on the desk today,
14:02we did a piece on who would England rather face in the final.
14:06And actually, me...
14:07I know we're getting ahead of ourselves with England,
14:09but just to play that for South Africa,
14:11me and Lawrence both said France.
14:13And kind of stand by that even more now, right?
14:15Because I think, having seen the way Spain dominated England
14:18in the European Championship final,
14:21compared to when France played England at the World Cup
14:23and England were kind of almost the better team in that game,
14:25had way more chances.
14:27You see an environment with France, as we saw with Spain today,
14:30which opens up a bit more for England,
14:32whereas Spain's domination of the ball,
14:34their technical players,
14:35the way they just control the positional aspects of the match,
14:40I think makes it a really tough challenge
14:42if it is England in the final.
14:44I mean, and presumably you agree with that kind of sentiment,
14:46given you said France as well, Lawrence.
14:48Yeah, I do, yeah.
14:48I think France would have been a better team for England to play
14:51just because they would have had opportunities
14:53to control the game a little bit,
14:56to build attacks,
14:57to basically land some blows,
15:00even though they would have taken some blows as well
15:02from Mbappe and co.
15:03Whereas I think with Spain,
15:04it will be very hard for England to create chances.
15:06I think that I can picture, sadly,
15:09Harry Kane and Jude Bellingham
15:10just very, very fatigued,
15:13chasing the ball around the halfway line
15:15and then not really having the energy.
15:17And almost to the point where I wonder
15:18whether Tuchel,
15:19and again, we're getting way ahead of ourselves,
15:21but if Tuchel is in a situation
15:22where he's up against Spain
15:23in a World Cup final,
15:24whether he slightly tweaks something
15:27to make England a better counter-attacking side
15:31or a team who can pinch the ball and go,
15:33whether it's Rashford,
15:34whether it's, I don't know,
15:36someone like Morgan Rodgers
15:37or someone who would just elevate
15:39that aspect of England's game.
15:40Because I feel like with Kane,
15:42you need runners around him, obviously,
15:44to be able to do that.
15:45I totally agree with you.
15:46I thought France were better for England
15:47just because, like, this almost,
15:50I think we actually mentioned this
15:51in a previous pod,
15:52this almost comes down to the maths with Spain
15:53and similar with France.
15:54Like, yes, that attack,
15:57France can suddenly produce a moment
15:58out of anywhere.
15:59And once they have those moments,
16:00they can go to another level.
16:02But it's not like they control the space
16:03in the same way.
16:04And that's going to be a challenge
16:06for whoever plays Spain,
16:07be it Argentina or England.
16:09They're going to have the ball
16:10and you're going to have to wait
16:11for the holes that appear.
16:13And that's very difficult to do.
16:14It's very far from impossible,
16:16as we've seen.
16:17In fact, it's interesting
16:18because I've been thinking about this
16:19a fair bit.
16:20If it is England against Spain,
16:22it'll be the fourth in a row
16:25in either men's or women's football.
16:27And they've all,
16:28all of those games have followed
16:29exactly the same template,
16:31which obviously, look,
16:31and we'd obviously get some
16:32of our more,
16:34how to put this,
16:36a certain type of listener
16:37who would resent the idea
16:39of talking about women's football
16:40and the men's podcast.
16:43But it's absolutely relevant
16:45because the way they play,
16:46like the Spanish women's team
16:47play exactly the same way
16:48as the men.
16:49With England,
16:50it's a bit more
16:51because there isn't the same idea
16:52governing everything.
16:53But it doesn't mean
16:54the games are the same.
16:55And those matches have all
16:56followed the same template.
16:58And England did win
16:59one last year
17:01in the women's final
17:02when it had been expected.
17:03Everything we're saying now
17:04is Spain dominating the ball,
17:06the mats of it
17:06taking those chances.
17:07The exact same thing
17:08was said about the women's final
17:09and England found a way.
17:12Again, look,
17:12people will be listening to this
17:13and obviously
17:14talking about England
17:15in a final
17:16and the game hasn't even played yet.
17:17But it's obviously,
17:19the point of view
17:19is a wider discussion.
17:21Yes.
17:22All right, well,
17:23perhaps on that note,
17:24we will take a break
17:25and when we get back,
17:26we will get into a bit more
17:27of England,
17:28Argentina,
17:29in Atlanta.
17:34Okay,
17:35so Miguel,
17:35you are in Atlanta
17:36for England
17:37versus Argentina.
17:38Very,
17:39very excited
17:39about this game
17:40slash
17:41strong feelings of dread.
17:43Talk to us
17:44about the latest
17:45with England.
17:46From my understanding
17:46is obviously
17:47Kwanzaa is suspended,
17:49Henderson is still injured,
17:51but Declan Rice
17:52trained on Tuesday
17:53and it sounds like
17:54he should be
17:55fit to play
17:56or is in contention
17:57to play.
17:58Yeah,
17:58it looks like
17:59it's going to be Rice.
18:00Surely,
18:00James comes in
18:01given he played
18:02on Saturday,
18:04although he didn't
18:04look fully fit
18:05on Saturday.
18:06But,
18:07I mean,
18:08before I go into
18:08any of that,
18:08I just have to say
18:09it's a bit,
18:10it's similar to
18:12what I was thinking
18:12before the game
18:13in the Azteca,
18:14but I have to say
18:14this even more so.
18:16Like,
18:16the very words,
18:18Argentina,
18:19England in a World Cup
18:20semi-final,
18:21I mean,
18:21it's just like,
18:23that's what you're here for.
18:24That is,
18:25this is an epic,
18:26I did a big piece
18:28in the history of the game
18:28and I would think
18:29that I don't think
18:31there are many fixtures
18:32that actually
18:33can match this
18:34in terms of
18:36scale
18:36and scale
18:37also invigorated
18:39by real history
18:40and football history,
18:41hopefully football history
18:42being the more relevant.
18:43I mean,
18:43it's quite telling
18:43out of a game like this
18:44where the Veterans Association
18:46of the Falklands
18:47in Argentina
18:47or the Malvinas
18:48basically said
18:49that they tried to play
18:50all this down,
18:51it's just a football match,
18:52which I think,
18:52I mean,
18:53I was speaking to people
18:54on the ground
18:54in Argentina
18:55and they said
18:55it is going to
18:56quite a hysterical level there
18:58and obviously
18:59some of that
19:00is the negative
19:01like what we've seen
19:01with all the kind of
19:02references in Malvinas
19:03and some of it
19:04is actually for the positive
19:05like I think
19:06everyone at this point
19:07has seen
19:07that clip of the fan
19:10coming along
19:10with the trombone
19:11then the bouncing
19:12I mean,
19:13Argentina do do
19:14all that stuff
19:14quite well
19:15but like,
19:16yeah,
19:16it's an absolute
19:17World Cup epic
19:18I think only
19:19maybe Brazil-Italy
19:20compares
19:20obviously Brazil-Argentina
19:22but Brazil-Argentina
19:22happens every year
19:24this is the first time
19:25we've seen this
19:25in 24 years
19:27so like,
19:28it is special
19:29and obviously
19:29because it's so special
19:30it gives the managers
19:31a lot to think about
19:31and so
19:33before we came on
19:34before the Spanish game
19:35I'd written my preview
19:36on this
19:37and I was going to speak
19:38and do a few people
19:39around both camps
19:40in fact,
19:41actually,
19:41just once we talk
19:42about the tactics
19:42it's something else
19:43that's worth getting into
19:44because I've been told
19:45that
19:46I mean,
19:47we discussed the Bellingham
19:48thing after the last game
19:49his comments
19:49and the difference
19:50of being with Tuchel
19:51and there have been
19:52some suggestion that
19:53oh,
19:53this could be a risk
19:54for the brotherhood
19:55and all this
19:55it's actually
19:56the total opposite
19:58I mean,
19:59this is basically
19:59tap-in sports psychology
20:01because it's so easy
20:03to create an external enemy
20:03it's classic kind of
20:04Michael Jordan stuff
20:05but the mood
20:06within the camp now
20:07is a siege mentality
20:08like
20:08Is the external enemy
20:10Gabriel Clarke?
20:12Who would have thought it?
20:13Which is very
20:14I mean,
20:14Gabriel,
20:15he's just doing his job
20:16and the question
20:17It's so harsh
20:17Maybe you could have
20:18phrased it a little bit
20:19not that I necessarily
20:20agree with that
20:20but it's just
20:21and we're talking about
20:22like an experienced
20:23brilliant broadcaster
20:25but no,
20:25I don't think it's just
20:26Gabriel
20:26it's just kind of
20:27I suppose
20:28it's just
20:29it's almost a cliche
20:30it's the media
20:31they're trying to break us up
20:32but it's tap-in psychology
20:35because it works
20:37so England will be trying
20:38to kind of tap into that spirit
20:39Argentina I think
20:40are in a World Cup
20:41they're in a siege mentality
20:42all the time
20:44but
20:45from what I've been told
20:47and from looking around
20:48a little bit
20:48Argentina are going to go
20:49very, very compact
20:51they've even been toying
20:53with Ottomendi
20:53in midfield
20:55and I suppose
20:56in contrast to France
20:58who didn't do anything
20:59basically to accommodate
21:00for Spain
21:00I think Tuchel
21:02is going to accommodate
21:03for this a little bit
21:04he'll be very
21:05from what I'm told
21:07he'll be very conscious
21:08of that diamond midfield
21:09I mean
21:11this is where
21:11you're getting into
21:12bigger things in the game here
21:13but England
21:14I think have a lot more
21:15variety than Argentina
21:16I think fundamentally
21:16they've got a better squad
21:17but a World Cup semi-final
21:19especially with all these emotions
21:20doesn't necessarily
21:21come down to that
21:22and also
21:22I think with the way
21:23Argentina play
21:25they can
21:26they can neuter
21:27some of those
21:28some of England's advantages
21:29in that sense
21:30a little bit
21:30because
21:30they're going to give themselves
21:32midfield superiority
21:33and I think
21:34in that perspective
21:35Tuchel's going to have to
21:36centre the midfield a bit
21:37and I wonder
21:38does Anthony Gordon
21:39actually come in
21:40a lot more
21:41just to battle that
21:42which maybe takes away
21:43from England's pace
21:44in the break a bit
21:45surely if they bring in
21:47Ottomendi into midfield
21:48we bring Dan Byrne into midfield
21:49fight fire with fire
21:52two personifications
21:53of siege mentality
21:54in midfield
21:55facing each other
21:56that'll be quite something
21:57I think
21:57I've seen some stuff today
21:58Miguel about
21:59given Saka's not fully fair
22:01Madueke's not really firing
22:02that Morgan Rodgers
22:03who come in
22:03in the front three
22:05in kind of
22:05quite like a
22:06like an introverted
22:08right-sided role
22:09do you see something
22:09like that happening
22:10one of Madueke
22:10and Saka
22:11not starting on the right
22:12I think it makes sense
22:13I mean Rodgers did
22:14I think change the game
22:15a bit much
22:15against Norway
22:16but he had impact
22:17and it was obviously
22:18his shot that actually
22:19turned
22:19he finally started
22:20testing the keeper
22:22and then his shot
22:23in itself
22:23is a weapon
22:24on its own
22:24and I think it does
22:25make sense
22:26I mean
22:26that could be a
22:27classic case
22:27that one of these
22:28players is waiting
22:28to be released
22:29in a tournament
22:30on the other side
22:31of Acto
22:32and this is where
22:33there's a slight
22:33concern for England
22:35so obviously
22:36for basically
22:36most of this tournament
22:38Argentina have
22:39an extreme case
22:40of Messi dependencia
22:41I mean I think
22:42someone sent me
22:43the stats earlier
22:44for the four semi-finalists
22:45like who was responsible
22:46for the most
22:47kind of dribbles
22:48assists goals
22:49and like even more
22:50kind of technical stuff
22:51and like with every other team
22:53it's quite varied
22:53or Argentina
22:54it's Messi
22:54Messi
22:54Messi
22:54Messi
22:55but that is why
22:56I think it's significant
22:57that on Saturday
22:59and like this speaks again
23:00to what we were saying
23:00in the first half
23:01about coming into the tournament
23:02later
23:03or coming into a late on
23:05Alvarez scores
23:05and scores a brilliant goal
23:06which would kind of
23:07be transformative for him
23:08and Lauturo Martinez
23:10a player I've never been mad on
23:12but he can be effective
23:13he gets a goal as well
23:14because I think he is
23:15a confidence player
23:15and suddenly that's
23:17two more potential
23:19dangers for Argentina
23:20to test England
23:22in a different way
23:23just one thing
23:23and I'm not sure
23:24what you guys think about this
23:25like this is pretty much
23:25what I said in my match preview
23:27like you can think about the game
23:29in a logical sense
23:31and it's kind of like
23:31how the attack's going to
23:32shape up at the start
23:35Argentina's diamonded field
23:36England's pace
23:36and I think that will be relevant
23:38for some of the game
23:39but with the way
23:41these two teams
23:42have had their entire tournament
23:44there will come a point
23:46and I think that point
23:47can come quite early
23:47in the match
23:48where this just goes
23:49out of control altogether
23:50I think it's going to be
23:53I think it's going to be
23:53closer to 1998
23:54than either 2002
23:56or 1996
23:58yeah it feels like
23:59dogfight impending
24:01doesn't it
24:01I think
24:02I think all it will really
24:03take in that first half
24:04is one big tackle
24:05one yellow card
24:07one scuffle
24:08in the middle of the park
24:09and suddenly
24:10all the talk about
24:11formations
24:12and tactical systems
24:13doesn't go out the window
24:14I think that's overstating it
24:15but it makes it a game
24:17about passion
24:17and emotion
24:18which I do think
24:19plays into Argentina's hands
24:20I think that they've
24:22proven that
24:22that's what they feed on
24:24and you know
24:25it's interesting you'd say
24:26about siege mentality
24:28Miguel
24:28because I think
24:29a rather Mourinho playbook
24:31and I think it's something
24:31that Tuchel will want to cultivate
24:33on Gabriel Clark
24:34he has just done
24:35interviews with Harry Kane
24:36and Thomas Tuchel
24:36and it looks
24:37pleasant enough
24:38so I'm actually near certain
24:40there's no
24:41deep lying rift there
24:42they do way too many
24:43interviews together
24:44that anything like that
24:45would happen
24:46but it can
24:46cultivate an atmosphere
24:47in the dressing room
24:48which I do think
24:49can help England
24:50so
24:51as Miguel
24:53emphasised
24:53the two different dynamics
24:55to the match
24:55is so fascinating
24:57and I do think
24:58it will go deep
25:00I think it will go into
25:00extra time
25:01and maybe further
25:02Interesting
25:03yeah I mean
25:04I hope that it's
25:05I hope it's that kind of game
25:06with goals flowing
25:07just one thing on the team
25:09I wonder if
25:10Konsa may
25:11play it right back
25:13just because
25:13I think he played quite well
25:15in the previous game
25:17against Norway
25:17and whether
25:18Tuchel might just retain
25:19that back four
25:20that started that game
25:21and given you
25:22what you said Miguel
25:23about Rhys James
25:23sort of not looking
25:24100% fit
25:25whether he might be better
25:26being used
25:28in the latter stages
25:29of the game
25:30and I'm really interested
25:31Anderson
25:32I think he's been brilliant
25:33I don't think we've really
25:33discussed him that much
25:34in this podcast
25:35but I think he's had
25:36a fantastic tournament
25:37and has been the player
25:40that England have lacked
25:40for about
25:41two decks
25:42basically since like
25:43Owen Hargreaves
25:45and I think he could be
25:47a really important
25:47player against Messi
25:50obviously as you said
25:51that sort of
25:51dependence on him
25:52if Anderson can
25:54pick him up in those
25:55pockets
25:55that could be very
25:56very influential
25:58in the game
25:58and then also just
25:59Rodgers
25:59I would quite like to
26:01see Rodgers start
26:01there's a stat about
26:02England's pressing
26:04and Rodgers is like
26:05third I think
26:06for the number of
26:07number of pressures
26:08on opponents
26:08or something like that
26:09despite obviously
26:10playing cameo roles
26:12that when he comes on
26:13he puts in a huge shift
26:14and really puts a lot
26:14of pressure on opponents
26:15so I think having that
26:16from the start
26:17could be a very
26:18useful tool
26:19so yeah
26:20I would quite like
26:21to see Rodgers start
26:21I think Anderson's
26:22important
26:22I think maybe
26:23I'd like to quite like
26:24to see Conte start
26:24as well at right back
26:25Yeah
26:25do you think there's
26:26maybe a logic here
26:27that because of
26:28James and Rice's
26:30fitness problems
26:31and like the likelihood
26:32of them doing 90 minutes
26:33maybe even have to go
26:34to 120 is really
26:35unlikely
26:36that he starts
26:37Conte at right back
26:38and then brings James
26:38on in midfield
26:39for Rice maybe
26:41because when James
26:42came on in midfield
26:43against Norway
26:43I thought he looked
26:44really composed
26:45he's obviously
26:45can see a pass
26:46so I think that might
26:48be the way he goes
26:49yeah I think I
26:50think I agree with you
26:51Lawrence because
26:52I think Stones
26:53and Gehi are also
26:54they showed themselves
26:55to be an established
26:56centre-back pairing
26:57so yeah
26:58I don't think
26:59I think that's more
27:00likelihood than him
27:01bringing in Jed Spence
27:01that's for sure
27:03Do you guys see this game
27:04as
27:05I was thinking about this
27:06before the semi-finals
27:07are England playing
27:08the worst team
27:09left in the competition
27:10or Argentina playing
27:11the worst team
27:12left in the competition
27:13I mean both teams
27:14must obviously be pleased
27:15that they're on the side
27:17of the draw that they're on
27:18and have had a void
27:19Spain and France
27:20but do you see a favourite
27:21in this game
27:22is this an entirely
27:2350-50 semi-final
27:25I do think England are
27:28England are
27:29how to put this
27:30I can't quite say
27:31they're better
27:32I think England have
27:34more quality
27:35in their squad
27:36it's just one of the issues
27:37has been
27:37that hasn't necessarily
27:39it has manifested
27:40in results
27:41and obviously quality
27:42has been responsible
27:42given Bellingham and Kane
27:43have been scoring
27:44it hasn't manifested
27:45in performances
27:46and in that
27:47they've almost been
27:47the mirror of Argentina
27:48I mean basically
27:49the story of both tournaments
27:51is
27:51they're very dysfunctional teams
27:53that has made them dependent
27:54on their stars
27:57has also ensured
27:58that every game
27:59is a battle
28:01and there's this
28:01constant sense of
28:03they've got flaws here
28:04where they're eventually
28:05going to be found out
28:06until suddenly
28:07you get to a point
28:07where you can't be found out
28:08and even I think that
28:10even whoever gets through
28:11to play Spain
28:13in the final
28:13weirdly I think
28:14it would be worse
28:15to play Spain
28:16earlier in the tournament
28:17if like a quarter-final
28:18or semi-final
28:19because a final
28:20has a different energy
28:21about it
28:21so suddenly
28:22both of them
28:23could go through
28:23without getting caught
28:24in that sense
28:25but it's for all those
28:26reasons as well
28:27I suppose this touches
28:27on what you said there
28:29Lawrence about like
28:30are Argentina or England
28:31playing the worst side
28:32left in the tournament
28:33you can generally
28:34see this being anything
28:35like one team
28:36finally collapses
28:37and the other one
28:38just destroys them
28:39one team finally
28:40steps up maybe
28:41or else
28:42there's a comeback
28:43one team collapses
28:44and there's a comeback
28:44as we've seen with Argentina
28:45England had to come back
28:46as well
28:47if maybe not quite
28:48to the same degree
28:48as Argentina
28:50or I think most likely
28:51this ebbs and flows
28:53and goes
28:53the opposite
28:54I think it's going to penalties
28:55and I think
28:55we're getting at least
28:57one red card
28:58yeah I'm inclined to agree
29:00with Miguel's final prediction
29:01which is a bit awkward
29:02for when we're actually
29:03going to do our predictions
29:04but never mind
29:04we'll get to that
29:05we'll come to that
29:05when we get to it
29:06but I think it's
29:07I place quite a lot
29:08of significance
29:09on the historical weight
29:10behind these
29:11these magnificent
29:13iconic fixtures
29:14as well
29:14we are talking
29:15England are trying to get
29:16to their first World Cup
29:17final in 60 years
29:18I think that shouldn't
29:20be underplayed
29:21like it's such a big moment
29:22for English football
29:24for the team
29:25for the country
29:25you can feel
29:26the tension rising
29:27and I do place
29:29a lot of weight
29:30behind that
29:30Argentina have been there
29:31and done it
29:31in recent years
29:32in 1919
29:331986
29:34they've reached finals
29:35so I think
29:36that weight of history
29:38particularly as the game
29:39goes deep
29:40and it becomes
29:40fine margins
29:41you mentioned
29:42in the last podcast
29:42Lawrence
29:43about how VAR
29:44could change it
29:45we haven't actually
29:45discussed the referee
29:46appointment
29:47which is the American
29:48referee
29:49who I actually think
29:50has been quite good
29:51so far
29:51so what do we think
29:53about that
29:53I saw his record
29:55or his record
29:57of Messi games
29:58Messi won trophies
29:59I think
30:00in two games
30:01that he's refereed
30:01before
30:02is that right
30:02yeah well
30:03he referees in the MLS
30:04I did see one headline
30:05from one rival newspaper
30:07which described him
30:08as Messi's
30:08quote favourite ref
30:10went into the article
30:12to try and see
30:12Messi's quoting him
30:13as his favourite ref
30:14and lo and behold
30:15that didn't turn out
30:16it was just the fact
30:16he's refereed Messi a lot
30:17so I mean
30:19take up a pinch of salt
30:20well I've written in a piece
30:22today for tomorrow
30:23about how I
30:24I feel that VAR
30:25and I mentioned this
30:26in the other podcast
30:27I think VAR
30:28will be very important
30:29and I think
30:30probably who
30:31is like
30:32the VAR
30:32will be more influential
30:33on the game
30:34and the outcome of the game
30:35than like
30:35who starts at right back
30:37like I think
30:37that's how important
30:38it will be
30:39and like Miguel says
30:40probably a red card
30:41quite
30:41I'm sure there'll be
30:43a disallowed goal
30:44and a hugely contentious moment
30:45some spider cannon
30:46involved
30:46but yeah I've no strong
30:48opinion on the ref
30:48I'm happy to
30:49I'm happy to defer to
30:50if Messi thinks
30:52he's his favourite ref
30:53then so be it
30:55but as you said
30:57might just be
30:57a coincidence
30:58with him
30:59refereeing in America
31:00we talk about refs
31:00too much
31:01I'd still say
31:02I know it's hard
31:03not to
31:03this tournament
31:04is gone
31:05but I do think
31:05even that
31:06it sort of creates
31:07a bit of a
31:09World Cup wide
31:10echo chamber
31:11whereas because
31:11some people
31:12are discussing refs
31:13everyone's discussing refs
31:14where
31:14look obviously
31:15clearly it has impact
31:17given some decisions
31:17you've seen
31:18but I still think
31:20I still think
31:20a lot of this
31:21is overstated
31:23I do wonder
31:24whether the game
31:25will end up
31:25being a kind of
31:27tinderbox
31:28chaotic
31:29violent game
31:30I would be surprised
31:32I know the atmosphere
31:33will be quite feisty
31:34but
31:35like I look at the
31:36England team
31:36I've sat down
31:38and interviewed
31:38Elliot Anderson
31:39I don't think
31:39he knows much
31:40about England's
31:42empirical roots
31:42I'm not sure
31:44there's a huge
31:45amount of interest
31:46or knowledge
31:47of the Falklands
31:48in that squad
31:49and although
31:50Argentina are very
31:52passionate about it
31:53and sing about it
31:53I think from an
31:54England perspective
31:55it's just
31:55they're just playing
31:56against a good
31:57team
31:58and I think
31:59that will mean
32:00it is just a
32:01football match
32:01I really don't
32:02think it will be
32:02as
32:02I might be
32:03completely wrong
32:04but I don't
32:04think it would
32:05necessarily be
32:05two red cards
32:07and studs up
32:08and all that
32:08sort of stuff
32:08On that though
32:09so exactly that
32:11point
32:12just a football
32:13match
32:13so on Saturday
32:14after the
32:15Switzerland game
32:15Lionel Scaloni
32:16the Argentina
32:17manager says
32:17exactly that
32:18and that's
32:19at the precise
32:20moment
32:21that all of
32:22his players
32:22in the dressing
32:23room singing
32:23about Malvinas
32:25obviously
32:25Argentina
32:26every single
32:27tournament
32:28they've got a
32:29song that
32:30characterises it
32:31and kind of
32:31drives them
32:32through
32:32the players
32:32end up singing
32:33it goes from
32:34the terraces
32:34to the dressing
32:35room
32:35and in 2022
32:36it was Machachos
32:37that has
32:38almost immediate
32:39mention of
32:40Malvinas
32:42they'll never
32:43forget you
32:43it is
32:45everywhere
32:45I think one
32:46thing with
32:47the Falklands
32:48slash Malvinas
32:49is
32:49like it's
32:50being taught
32:51from speaking
32:51to people
32:51in Argentina
32:52it's always
32:53been there
32:53clearly
32:53but it's
32:55talked of
32:55much more
32:56now
32:56than it was
32:57in 1998
32:58or 2002
32:59part of that
33:00is the
33:01politics in
33:01Argentina
33:02I think part
33:02of that
33:02is worldwide
33:04political shifts
33:06and also social
33:07media
33:07were obviously
33:07kind of
33:09nationalist
33:10topics
33:10have come
33:11back on the
33:12agenda
33:12much more
33:12social media
33:13then kind
33:13of creates
33:14a kind
33:15of a
33:15self
33:16perpetuating
33:17another
33:17echo
33:18chamber
33:18so all
33:18these
33:19things
33:19get talked
33:19about
33:19more
33:19funnily
33:20the issue
33:21of the
33:21Malvinas
33:21is said
33:22as
33:22it's said
33:23to be one
33:23that actually
33:23unites
33:24left and
33:25right
33:25in Argentina
33:27because
33:27obviously for the
33:28right it's a
33:29nationalist issue
33:29for the left
33:30it's sort of
33:30an anti-colonialism
33:31thing and that's
33:32obviously
33:32another aspect
33:33of the
33:34England
33:35Argentina
33:36relationship
33:36and it's
33:37just like
33:38it's in
33:38their
33:39constitution
33:40I think
33:40it's the
33:41national
33:42to peacefully
33:43take charge
33:44of the
33:44Malvinas
33:45at some
33:45point
33:45yeah
33:46I've done
33:47a big
33:47piece on
33:48this
33:48the history
33:49of the
33:49fixture
33:49and obviously
33:50how real
33:50history
33:51informs that
33:52and what
33:52stood out
33:53was a line
33:53by Glenn
33:55Hoddle
33:56about that
33:561986 game
33:57and obviously
33:57the 86
33:58was just
33:58four years
33:59after the
33:59war
34:00and they're
34:00all thinking
34:01like
34:01this is
34:02one thing
34:02people don't
34:03necessarily
34:04realise
34:04much about
34:05the
34:05Falklands
34:05given
34:05in England
34:06it's kind
34:07of a war
34:07that other
34:08than when
34:08Argentina
34:08played
34:09and what
34:10it represented
34:10for Margaret
34:11Thatcher
34:11and the
34:11Belgrano
34:12and all
34:12this
34:12it's barely
34:13thought about
34:14but it's
34:15such tragedy
34:16in Argentina
34:16because
34:17the junta
34:18at the
34:18time
34:18sent out
34:19a gang
34:20of kids
34:20in tennis
34:21shoes
34:21totally
34:22unprepared
34:22to be
34:23taking on
34:23one of
34:24the most
34:24sophisticated
34:25militaries
34:25in the
34:25world
34:25so it's
34:26a genuine
34:27national
34:27tragedy
34:27even though
34:28Maradona
34:29is one
34:29of the
34:29few people
34:30in public
34:30who I
34:30actually
34:30think
34:31has
34:31touched
34:31on the
34:31fact
34:31that
34:31this
34:32isn't
34:32just
34:32about
34:33the
34:33relationship
34:33with
34:33England
34:33it's
34:34also
34:34about
34:35really
34:35more
34:35blame
34:36should
34:36of course
34:36go to
34:36the
34:37military
34:37junta
34:37who were
34:38responsible
34:38for the
34:38invasion
34:39in the
34:39first
34:39place
34:40but
34:40Hodl
34:41did say
34:41like
34:41in that
34:42game
34:43it was
34:43like
34:43the
34:44Argentina
34:44players
34:44were
34:45tapping
34:45into
34:45something
34:46more
34:46visceral
34:46that we
34:47couldn't
34:47and we
34:48couldn't
34:48pretend
34:48we had
34:49those
34:49feelings
34:49so that
34:50I think
34:51that's
34:52where
34:52this
34:52game
34:52can
34:52change
34:53and
34:54like
34:54because
34:54it
34:54is
34:54there
34:54for
34:55the
34:55Argentinian
34:55players
34:55especially
34:55if it's
34:55being
34:56talked
34:56about
34:56more
34:56the
34:57only
34:57thing
34:57I would
34:57say
34:57in
34:57response
34:58to
34:58that
34:58is
34:58touching
34:59on
34:59something
34:59exactly
34:59you
35:00said
35:00Lawrence
35:01whatever
35:01about
35:02the
35:02political
35:02dimension
35:03which
35:03obviously
35:04has a
35:05psychological
35:05effect
35:05and a
35:06huge
35:06one
35:06as you
35:07mentioned
35:07England
35:07are playing
35:08for their
35:08first
35:08final
35:09in 60
35:09years
35:09I mean
35:10that
35:11that is
35:12much more
35:12relevant
35:12to the
35:13players
35:13here
35:14that's
35:14what
35:14and that
35:15can
35:15well
35:16like
35:16I mean
35:17yes
35:18sometimes
35:18it can
35:18bring
35:18a weight
35:19that people
35:19can't
35:19deal
35:19with
35:20other
35:20times
35:20it can
35:21actually
35:21just
35:21bring
35:21it
35:21to
35:22higher
35:22levels
35:22because
35:22the
35:23scale
35:24and
35:24realisation
35:25of what
35:25you're
35:25playing
35:25for
35:25actually
35:26is
35:26genuinely
35:27inspiring
35:27and even
35:28the
35:29footballing
35:29history
35:30the
35:30footballing
35:31rivalry
35:31shouldn't
35:32really
35:33affect
35:34any of
35:35the players
35:35particularly
35:36English
35:36players
35:36if you
35:37think
35:37most of
35:38them
35:38won't
35:38be old
35:39enough
35:39to
35:39remember
35:391998
35:40or even
35:41the
35:412002
35:42match
35:42probably
35:431998
35:44to me
35:44in my
35:46childhood
35:46was an
35:46almost
35:47defining
35:47moment
35:48that
35:48game
35:48I mean
35:49it was
35:49so
35:50just
35:51the
35:51emotion
35:52and
35:52you
35:52almost
35:52felt
35:53that
35:53hatred
35:53towards
35:54Diego
35:54Simeone
35:55as a
35:55kid
35:55growing up
35:56in
35:56England
35:56but
35:57none
35:57of
35:57those
35:57players
35:58would
35:58have
35:58felt
35:58that
35:58Anthony
35:59Gordon
35:59doesn't
36:00remember
36:00that
36:00so
36:00I
36:01feel
36:01like
36:02on both
36:03sides
36:03political
36:03and
36:04sporting
36:04history
36:05won't
36:05play a
36:06huge
36:06part
36:06certainly
36:07in
36:07the
36:07English
36:07mentality
36:08just
36:08before
36:08Kieran
36:09comes
36:09in
36:09though
36:09I was
36:10in
36:10researching
36:10that
36:10piece
36:11I did
36:11I was
36:11watching
36:12not
36:12just
36:12the
36:12stuff
36:13about
36:1386
36:13but
36:21incredible
36:21names
36:21for
36:21it
36:22some
36:22of
36:22the
36:22names
36:22being
36:23because
36:23they
36:24talk
36:24about
36:24there's
36:24obviously
36:24an
36:25entire
36:25episode
36:25that
36:25builds
36:26up
36:26to
36:26the
36:2698
36:27game
36:27and
36:28they've
36:28got
36:28Zanetti
36:28who scored
36:29that amazing
36:29free kick
36:29in the game
36:30they've
36:30well worked
36:30free
36:31they've
36:31got
36:31Varan
36:32who's
36:32actually
36:32sets up
36:33Zanetti
36:33for free
36:33Beckham
36:34is in
36:34it
36:34and we
36:35can
36:35see
36:36feelings
36:36have
36:36changed
36:37there
36:37given
36:37he had
36:37a great
36:37photo
36:38with
36:38Simeone
36:38and
36:39Messi
36:40is
36:40in
36:40it
36:40as
36:41those
36:41four
36:42Simeone
36:43Varan
36:44and
36:44Zanetti
36:45and
36:45Beckham
36:45are
36:45talking
36:45about
36:46the
36:46game
36:47what
36:47it
36:47means
36:48and
36:48rather
36:48going
36:48into
36:48the
36:49energy
36:49of
36:49it
36:50Messi
36:51who's
36:51presumably
36:52just
36:52used
36:52because
36:53it's
36:53Messi
36:53because
36:53they
36:53have
36:54him
36:54he
36:54said
36:54yes
36:55I
36:56remember
36:56the
36:571998
36:57World Cup
36:57a lot
36:58I watched
36:58it with
36:58my family
36:59afterwards
37:00we went
37:00out and
37:01played
37:01football
37:02and
37:03that's
37:03it
37:04but
37:05I
37:05said
37:06it's
37:06funny
37:06we've
37:08gone
37:09through
37:09a whole
37:09half
37:09now
37:10really
37:10without
37:10talking
37:11about
37:12England
37:12Argentina
37:12and
37:12barely
37:13talking
37:13about
37:13how
37:13you
37:13deal
37:13with
37:13Messi
37:14but
37:14in
37:14some
37:15ways
37:15actually
37:16it
37:17almost
37:17feels
37:17like
37:17Messi
37:17he's
37:18insulated
37:18himself
37:19for
37:19all
37:19for him
37:19it's
37:20just
37:20football
37:20but
37:21that
37:21in
37:21itself
37:21is
37:21actually
37:22the
37:22real
37:22danger
37:22here
37:23because
37:23he'll
37:25focus
37:25on
37:26what
37:26this
37:26is
37:26so
37:27I
37:27think
37:28maybe
37:28for
37:28the
37:29England
37:29players
37:29and
37:30Messi
37:30that
37:30history
37:30doesn't
37:31necessarily
37:31commit
37:32to it
37:32as
37:33much
37:34yeah
37:34let's
37:35bring it
37:35back to
37:36Messi
37:36before
37:36we get
37:36on to
37:37the rest
37:37is
37:37history
37:38podcast
37:38I mean
37:38I think
37:40I do
37:41think it's
37:41all relevant
37:42jokes aside
37:42but the
37:43one thing
37:43I wanted
37:43to say
37:44is that
37:44last week
37:44I did
37:45a piece
37:45on
37:45just a
37:46very
37:46very
37:47briefly
37:47bring it
37:48back
37:48to
37:49referees
37:49about the
37:50fact that
37:50an
37:50Argentinian
37:51or an
37:51English
37:51ref
37:51couldn't
37:52take
37:52charge
37:52of
37:53each
37:53other
37:53basically
37:54and
37:55so
37:55Michael
37:55Oliver
37:55couldn't
37:55take
37:56charge
37:56of
37:56an
37:56Argentina
37:56game
37:57and
37:57vice
37:57versa
37:58and
37:58it's
37:59because
37:59of
37:59the
37:59Falklands
38:00war
38:00but
38:00you
38:00remember
38:0120
38:01years
38:01ago
38:02when
38:02Raine
38:02really
38:02got
38:03sent
38:03off
38:03against
38:03Portugal
38:04that
38:04was
38:04with
38:04an
38:04Argentinian
38:05ref
38:05so
38:06I
38:06put it
38:06to
38:07someone
38:07as to
38:07why
38:07this
38:08wasn't
38:08in
38:08place
38:0820
38:09years
38:09ago
38:09in terms
38:10of
38:10FIFA's
38:10regulations
38:11when
38:11deciding
38:12referees
38:12and
38:12didn't
38:13really
38:13have
38:13an
38:13answer
38:13but
38:13it
38:14does
38:14speak
38:14to
38:14Miguel's
38:15theory
38:15about
38:16how
38:16that
38:16nationalistic
38:17feeling
38:18in
38:18Argentina
38:19particularly
38:20around
38:20the
38:20Falklands
38:20has
38:21actually
38:21grown
38:21with
38:22time
38:22not
38:22diminished
38:23so
38:24I
38:24think
38:24that's
38:24something
38:25and
38:25you
38:25can
38:25see
38:25it
38:25with
38:25the
38:25team
38:26and
38:26their
38:26celebrations
38:26and their
38:27songs
38:28so
38:28I
38:28think
38:29that
38:29is
38:30an
38:30interesting
38:30element
38:31to it
38:31which
38:31Argentina
38:32would
38:32definitely
38:33thrive on
38:33I do
38:33agree
38:33with
38:34you
38:34Lawrence
38:34I
38:34don't
38:34think
38:34the
38:34English
38:35players
38:35care
38:36at
38:36all
38:36but
38:37I
38:37do
38:37think
38:37there's
38:37something
38:38on
38:38the
38:38historical
38:38weight
38:39of
38:39the
38:40moment
38:40of
38:4160
38:41years
38:42since
38:42the
38:42World
38:42Cup
38:42final
38:43How do
38:44we
38:44stop
38:44Messi
38:45now that
38:45you've
38:45brought
38:45him up
38:46I
38:46mentioned
38:46Anderson
38:46and I
38:47think
38:47he's
38:47going to
38:47be
38:47very
38:47important
38:48but
38:48he
38:48can't
38:49do
38:49it
38:49on
38:49his
38:49own
38:49Nico
38:50O'Reilly
38:50is going to
38:51have to
38:51deal
38:52with
38:52some
38:53of
38:53Messi
38:53when
38:53he
38:53drifts
38:54out
38:54to
38:54that
38:54side
38:54I
38:54mean
38:55is
38:55there
38:55anything
38:56England
38:57specifically
38:57can do
38:58beyond
38:59all play
39:00really
39:00really
39:01well
39:01be very
39:01concentrated
39:02try to
39:03pass him
39:03on
39:03when he
39:04walks
39:05around
39:05or
39:05stands
39:06still
39:06you can't
39:07man mark
39:08him
39:08can you
39:08really
39:08you can't
39:09take
39:09Anderson
39:09out of
39:10the game
39:10so
39:11I don't
39:11know
39:12Miguel
39:12what are
39:13your
39:13thoughts
39:13is there
39:13a
39:13particular
39:13way
39:14that
39:15England
39:15can
39:15stop
39:16him
39:16but
39:16this
39:16is
39:16sort
39:17of
39:17the
39:17paradox
39:17of
39:18facing
39:19Messi
39:19at
39:19least
39:19Messi
39:20at
39:20the
39:20age
39:20of
39:2039
39:21and
39:21maybe
39:21from
39:2135
39:22through
39:26finally
39:26get
39:26him
39:27it's
39:27not
39:27Messi
39:28at
39:28his
39:28peak
39:28but
39:28then
39:28what are
39:29we
39:29talking
39:29about
39:29given
39:30what
39:30he's
39:30still
39:30doing
39:30Lennox
39:31Lewis
39:31versus
39:32Mike
39:32Tyson
39:33should
39:33it
39:34happen
39:34soon
39:35but
39:36the
39:36thing
39:36is
39:36you can
39:42devote
39:43all
39:43this
39:44kind
39:44of
39:44resource
39:44and
39:45tactical
39:46energy
39:46to
39:47marking
39:47him
39:48and
39:48for
39:4975
39:49minutes
39:49of
39:50the
39:50game
39:50he's
39:50going
39:50to
39:50do
39:50nothing
39:51like
39:51that's
39:52just
39:52a
39:52reality
39:53but
39:53of
39:53course
39:54the
39:54actual
39:54danger
39:54here
39:55is
39:55that
39:55as
39:56he's
39:56doing
39:56nothing
39:56he's
39:57kind
39:57of
39:57sizing
39:58up
39:58the
39:58whole
39:58pitch
39:58he's
39:59making
39:59a
39:59mental
39:59map
40:00he's
40:00almost
40:00computing
40:02where
40:02the
40:03spaces
40:03are
40:04going
40:05to
40:05appear
40:06I've
40:07done
40:07a piece
40:07on this
40:08as well
40:08Messi
40:09there is
40:10a lot
40:11of
40:11research
40:11that
40:12these
40:12super
40:13geniuses
40:14in terms
40:14of
40:15sporting
40:15talent
40:17it's
40:18not that
40:18their brain
40:18is geared
40:19in a
40:19different
40:19way
40:19but
40:19they
40:19have
40:20specific
40:20emphasis
40:21in
40:21their
40:21brain
40:21as
40:22regards
40:22a
40:22certain
40:24spatial
40:24awareness
40:25or
40:26where
40:27objects
40:28move
40:28in
40:28relation
40:28to
40:28space
40:29that
40:29means
40:29they
40:29can
40:30think
40:30quicker
40:30some
40:31of the
40:32lines
40:32you always
40:32give
40:32Messi
40:32it's
40:33like
40:33in
40:33the
40:33Matrix
40:34or
40:34he's
40:35got
40:35foresight
40:35because
40:36basically
40:37he's
40:37able to
40:38internalise
40:38all this
40:39data
40:40people
40:40moving
40:40the
40:40shapes
40:41so much
40:41quicker
40:42than
40:42anyone
40:42else
40:42and
40:42can
40:42compute
40:43where
40:44it's
40:44going
40:44to
40:44be
40:44so
40:44suddenly
40:44if
40:45you
40:45think
40:45you've
40:45got
40:45him
40:45locked
40:46off
40:46at
40:47a
40:47key
40:47moment
40:47of
40:47the
40:47game
40:55minutes
40:55he
40:55went
40:55on
40:56a
40:57run
40:57in
40:57that
40:57game
40:58that
40:58he
40:58hadn't
40:58done
40:58all
40:59match
40:59he's
40:59barely
40:59done
40:59this
41:00tournament
41:00and
41:00it was
41:00like
41:00it was
41:01like
41:01it was
41:012011
41:01again
41:02and
41:03when
41:05he
41:05decides
41:05to
41:06do
41:06that
41:07there
41:07is
41:07very
41:07little
41:08you
41:08can
41:08do
41:08so
41:08it's
41:08about
41:09trying
41:10to
41:10manage
41:10it
41:11yeah
41:11you're
41:11right
41:11he
41:12moved
41:12himself
41:12onto
41:12the
41:12right
41:13wing
41:14didn't
41:14he
41:14just
41:15out
41:16of
41:16nowhere
41:16suddenly
41:16and
41:16decided
41:17basically
41:17made
41:18a
41:18tactical
41:18change
41:19on
41:19his
41:19own
41:20and
41:21change
41:21the
41:21game
41:22and
41:22I
41:22really
41:22like
41:22that
41:23description
41:23of
41:23him
41:23sort
41:23of
41:23mapping
41:24a
41:24game
41:24while
41:25he
41:25watches
41:25it
41:25I
41:26remember
41:26reading
41:26an
41:26article
41:27it's
41:27going
41:27back
41:27quite a
41:27few
41:28years
41:28now
41:28but
41:28I'm
41:28sure
41:28it
41:28still
41:29stands
41:29that
41:30he
41:30doesn't
41:30score
41:30he scores
41:31a
41:31very
41:31small
41:31percentage
41:32of
41:32his
41:32goals
41:32in
41:32the
41:32first
41:3215
41:33minutes
41:33of
41:33matches
41:34and
41:34that
41:34is
41:35because
41:35he
41:35is
41:35sort
41:36part
41:37part
41:37time
41:38cartographer
41:38like
41:39he
41:39is
41:39mapping
41:40out
41:40the
41:40game
41:40and
41:41feeling
41:42a
41:42weakness
41:42is
41:43the
41:43soft
41:43points
41:43in
41:44a
41:44defence
41:44before
41:45he
41:45then
41:45goes
41:46and
41:46exploits
41:46them
41:46and
41:46I'm
41:47sure
41:47he
41:47will
41:48be
41:49considering
41:49how
41:50he
41:50can
41:50get
41:50through
41:50that
41:51sort
41:51of
41:51gay
41:52O'Reilly
41:52combination
41:53on that
41:53side
41:54of
41:54the
41:54pitch
41:54and
41:55then
41:55eventually
41:55do
41:56something
41:56about
41:56it
41:57and
41:57we'll
41:57have
41:57to
41:57hope
41:57that
41:57Pickford
41:58makes
41:58a
41:59save
41:59or
41:59whatever
41:59it
41:59might
42:07there
42:08will
42:08be
42:08for
42:08the
42:09majority
42:09of
42:09the
42:09match
42:09playing
42:10against
42:10effectively
42:1110
42:11men
42:11Messi
42:12doesn't
42:12run
42:12so
42:13there
42:13is
42:13an
42:14opportunity
42:14there
42:14for
42:15England
42:15to
42:15actually
42:15do
42:15some
42:16damage
42:16but
42:16obviously
42:17it's
42:18the
42:18obvious
42:18thing
42:18to
42:18say
42:19that
42:19as
42:20soon
42:20as
42:20you
42:20take
42:20your
42:20eye
42:20off
42:20him
42:21you're
42:22in
42:22an
42:22awful
42:22lot
42:22of
42:22trouble
42:22given
42:23his
42:23quality
42:23and
42:24the
42:25Egypt
42:25example
42:25is
42:26a
42:26perfect
42:26example
42:26of
42:27how
42:27Messi
42:27changed
42:27that
42:28game
42:28on
42:37good
42:38logically
42:39I
42:39think
42:39they're
42:39better
42:40than
42:40Argentina
42:41logically
42:41I
42:42think
42:43they
42:43should
42:44win
42:44but
42:45I
42:45just
42:45have
42:46a
42:46feeling
42:46they
42:46won't
42:47and
42:48it
42:48comes
42:48down
42:48to
42:48one
42:49that
42:49Argentina
42:50will
42:50eventually
42:51create a
42:51game
42:51where
42:51logic
42:52doesn't
42:52apply
42:52and
42:53obviously
42:53it's
42:54Messi
42:54who you
42:55can't
42:55apply
42:55normal
42:56logic
42:56to
42:56and
42:57that's
42:57just
42:58it
42:59kind of
42:59makes
42:59sense
42:59and it
42:59doesn't
42:59make
43:00sense
43:00if you
43:00get
43:00me
43:00but
43:00that's
43:01what
43:02I
43:02can't
43:02get
43:02away
43:03from
43:03England
43:04should
43:04win
43:04I
43:05think
43:05they've
43:05got
43:05the best
43:06chance
43:07in 60
43:07years
43:08to get
43:08to a
43:08final
43:09it's
43:09something
43:10to
43:10seize
43:10but
43:10I
43:11just
43:12can't
43:12this is
43:13just
43:13a
43:13gut
43:13feeling
43:13I've
43:13got
43:13about
43:14it
43:14now
43:14Miguel
43:15do you
43:15see
43:15it
43:15as
43:16a
43:16bigger
43:16chance
43:16than
43:161990
43:17against
43:18West
43:18Germany
43:18and
43:182018
43:19Croatia
43:19yeah
43:20because
43:20West
43:21Germany
43:21I
43:21mean
43:21they
43:21were
43:22the
43:22team
43:22of
43:22the
43:22tournament
43:22that
43:22was
43:23a
43:23bit
43:23like
43:23the
43:232002
43:24World
43:24Cup
43:25where
43:26Germany
43:26started
43:27winning
43:27and
43:27they're
43:28the
43:28champions
43:28now
43:29ironically
43:29I suppose
43:30there was a bit of that with France this year
43:31but actually what was said about France a little bit
43:33was kind of
43:34it could have been a bit
43:34Brazil 82
43:35never than 74
43:37and with Croatia
43:38I just don't think England were ready for that game
43:41they'd overperformed to get that far
43:43and like you still had the issue in midfield
43:45that it's okay
43:46never fully solved
43:47well and the other thing with 2018
43:49was you had a very good France team waiting in the final
43:51so even if
43:52even if England had muddled their way past
43:54I think they would have got hammered by
43:55Croatia
43:56I agree
43:56I think
43:57I think
43:58this is a better chance
43:59than those two chances
44:01I think
44:01I still wonder whether 2006
44:03although it was quarterfinals
44:05wasn't it
44:05we lost
44:05England lost to Portugal
44:07so I feel like maybe that was
44:09as good an opportunity
44:10in the sense of England being
44:12just such a high quality team
44:13and they're also not being an absolute
44:16standout team in that tournament
44:17as good as
44:18Italy and France were
44:20but
44:20yeah it feels like
44:21probably to my eyes
44:23a better opportunity
44:24than 2018
44:25and a better opportunity
44:26I think than
44:26than 2022
44:29probably fair as well
44:30but
44:31Spain look great
44:32don't they
44:32I think Spain are certainly the favourites
44:34okay let's have your
44:36predictions then
44:37before we wrap up
44:38Kieran let's start with you
44:39what do you
44:39what do you think will happen
44:40I might be nicking Miguel's here
44:42but I'm actually going to compare it
44:44to a 2022 match
44:45I think it feels like
44:46a similar tone
44:47and a similar feel
44:48to that Netherlands
44:49quarterfinal
44:49with Argentina
44:50I think it could get that boisterous
44:52I think it could get
44:53that almost violent
44:54that aggressive
44:55that kind of plays into Argentina's hands
44:57but it makes it a dogfight
44:58it makes it a battle
44:59I think it could be 2-all
45:01I think it could go to penalties
45:02and I think Argentina
45:03would win on penalties
45:04I think
45:04I think Emilio Martinez
45:05makes a difference in a penalty shootout
45:07I really do
45:08so I think if it goes that far
45:09I think he has the edge over Pickford
45:11sorry Migs
45:12I'm actually
45:13you're pretty much going to say
45:14I was going to say exactly that
45:15but one thing
45:15I think England go ahead
45:17potentially 2-0 ahead
45:18I think it's looking good
45:20and Argentina said
45:21you come back
45:22and I think it also goes to penalties
45:23and I think
45:24as brilliantly as England prepared
45:26and like England
45:26there is an argument
45:27to the best penalty takers
45:28in the world now
45:29as we obviously discussed
45:31in previous podcasts
45:31penalties are now as much
45:32about your goalkeeper
45:33Pickford is brilliant
45:34but Martinez obviously
45:35has this incredible record
45:37and I think that's what will
45:39end up decisive
45:40it'll go a distance
45:41and I just think it'll
45:42yeah
45:43sorry
45:44sorry sorry to England fans
45:45I could be wrong
45:47I've been wrong many times
45:47in the past
45:49Lawrence you've got to go England
45:50so I
45:51I was going to
45:52before we had this discussion
45:54actually Miguel
45:54slightly changed my thinking
45:55I was going to say
45:56that England would win
45:57in 90 minutes
45:58either 1-0 or 2-1
46:00the reason Miguel
46:01changed my thinking
46:02is just stressing
46:03the passion
46:04and sort of
46:05emotion of Argentina
46:07against an England team
46:08and it's hard to say
46:09they will want it more
46:10because like you said
46:11England are playing
46:11to be in a World Cup final
46:12you can't want anything
46:13much more
46:13but I just wonder
46:15if that emotional energy
46:16will push Argentina
46:18to a different height
46:19and make it very difficult
46:21for England
46:23even saying that
46:24I'm going to stick
46:25with my gut instinct
46:26and say that England
46:27will win in 90 minutes
46:28will it be 1-0
46:29will it be 2-1
46:29I'm going to say
46:31I'm going to say
46:32England might win 1-0
46:33a tight game
46:35and I think actually
46:35maybe not
46:37as violent
46:38as you've predicted Kieran
46:39although it would be
46:39a lot more fun
46:40to see
46:40the kind of
46:41scenes that we saw
46:42against the Netherlands
46:43with Argentina
46:44well I only hope
46:45we can get your smugness
46:46from the last podcast
46:47at our next podcast
46:50let's hope for that
46:50if I've predicted it correctly
46:52I'll be bringing it up
46:53if not
46:54we'll just move on
46:57very good
46:58alright
46:58thanks Kieran
46:59good to see you
47:00we'll catch up
47:01in a couple of days
47:01and I'm looking forward
47:02to our debrief
47:03on England and Argentina
47:04Miguel
47:05enjoy the game
47:06really looking forward
47:06to reading your
47:08bits and pieces
47:09from the game
47:09and watching your
47:10one minute match report
47:12as you do
47:12on Instagram and Twitter
47:13always good
47:14worth checking out
47:14thank you to our producer
47:16Jamie MacDonald
47:17once again
47:18thanks for listening
47:19and we will
47:20see you on the other side
47:21and we'll see you on the other side
47:23and we'll see you on the other side
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