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00:03Aida, don't you find it sad that there are some senior citizens out there
00:09who have been abandoned by their adult children?
00:12Yes, I find it extremely sad because we have read the news about
00:19parents being abandoned in hospitals and in their homes.
00:23We see a lot of elderly just dying alone at home.
00:30And that is sad, but unfortunately, that is the society we are living in now.
00:41And on that cue, what are we talking about today?
00:45We've heard, I mean, we've read in the news about the government,
00:49My Ling, introducing the Senior Citizens Bill.
00:54So I'm sure a lot of our listeners out there are curious about what this could mean moving forward.
01:00And we have a guest with you here today, and he's going to hopefully walk us through this bill
01:05and shed some light on the issue that we are talking about today.
01:09Yes, we have Mr. Chia Takwing, the Malaysian Coalition on Aging MCOA Chairman.
01:16Am I correct? Welcome to our podcast.
01:19May we address you as Mr. Chia or Takwing?
01:21Chia will do.
01:22Chia will do.
01:23Thank you for coming.
01:24Yes.
01:25Before we get into the nitty-gritty of aging, it's not fun.
01:32Aging is not fun at all.
01:33It depends on how you look at it, I guess.
01:36I suppose.
01:36When there are things that open up the rest, you get older.
01:39Let's just tell a bit of background on this issue.
01:43According to the Department of Statistics, Malaysia, DOSM, people aged 65 and above make up 8.1% of the
01:52population as of 2024.
01:55Now, this is expected to rise to 14.5% by 2040.
02:00And again, we have written so many stories, uncountable stories about the silver community aging, Malaysia being an aging nation,
02:13and the sad part about children who don't want to take on the responsibility of caring for their parents.
02:26I have an elderly mom, and you still have your mom.
02:31I'm sorry, you still have both your parents.
02:33And I mean, can you imagine just abandoning them?
02:36I can't imagine doing that.
02:39Yeah, I mean, I can't imagine doing that.
02:41But I think what a lot of people are having questions about out there is that when we say care
02:47or responsibility to care for your parents, like, what does that entail?
02:51What does that mean?
02:52So, different people might have different interpretation of that word.
02:56So, that's what we are hoping to dissect today.
02:58Yeah.
02:59So, Chia, let's hear from you.
03:02What is the Malaysian Coalition on Aging?
03:06Okay.
03:07Firstly, thank you for having me today.
03:09I'll play.
03:10Yeah.
03:11The Malaysian Coalition on Aging actually started in 2022, just after the pandemic.
03:17The idea actually came from the United Nations Population Fund, or UNFPA.
03:26The time we were working closely with My Aging, UPM.
03:31They do a lot of research work on aging.
03:34So, UNFPA wanted the civil societies in Malaysia who are involved in aging to come together to advocate for the
03:42elderly.
03:42Because of the United Nations, talking about the ranks of people, including the elderly.
03:52This was way back in 1997, talking about SDG 1, no poverty.
03:58SDG 3, everybody should be accessible to healthcare, SDG 3, no inclusivity, employment opportunity for all, you know.
04:09So, that's how it came about.
04:12And in fact, from what I know, when Badawi was the Prime Minister, he actually proposed a senior citizen bill.
04:20So, even those days, even those days, but unfortunately, it dragged on until today.
04:26Now, we are seriously looking into it.
04:28And so, Malaysian Coalition on Aging idea is actually to get as many as possible, not only civil societies,
04:38also the private sector and the public sector to come together to advocate for the seniors,
04:44to look at problems and opportunities that we can work together, you know.
04:49So, that was the MCOA.
04:52And I started one NGO in 2016 called the Third Age Media Association.
05:01And the idea of this association is actually also to advocate and also to encourage seniors to live healthily and
05:10actively after retirement.
05:12And we published a magazine called The Senior, which is available in selected bookstores.
05:20So, the idea is to promote aging, healthy and active, even productive aging after retirement through media, right?
05:29And we, so MCOA started because of UMFPA, you know, and we held our, just after the pandemic, we held
05:42a big event in Kale Tower.
05:46So, we have an election and I was leading the MCOA since then until today, you know.
05:52And I'm very glad to say that we have done a lot of work and we are, I mean, we
05:59have very, been very impactful.
06:01And the ministry has noted our work and they have actually asked us to be their partner, all right, in
06:09advocating for the elderly.
06:11So, a lot of times when the government, through the Ministry of Women, Family and Community Development,
06:16when they want to do policy planning, they will request us for input.
06:23So, that is, I think we have done a lot.
06:27We advocate through many platforms, including podcasts like this, through the media, newspaper, through events like forums, conferences, you know.
06:40So, there are many ways we can actually advocate and the good thing is that the government is listening.
06:47That's good.
06:48Yep.
06:48Can you explain, you told me this before we started this episode, what is Third Age?
06:55What does Third Age mean?
06:57Okay, the word Third Age, from my understanding, is that it was first coined in France, all right?
07:03And they started what we so call the UST of Third Age.
07:06Third Age, instead of Third Age, it's not actually an academic university, but it's basically combined with short programs for
07:13seniors,
07:14those who have retired, two, three months program, irrespective, I mean, it could be covering many things like even ukulele,
07:23playing ukulele, singing, drawing, dancing, whatever that seniors may enjoy.
07:29Because when they are working, they got no time for, limited time for enjoyment.
07:35So, plenty of time after you retire, so they want the retirees to actually be active.
07:42As you know that it's not just physically active, but also mentally active.
07:47Because a person declines rapidly, if your mental health is bad.
07:53That's right.
07:53It's very, very important to keep yourself mentally healthy.
07:58Yeah.
07:58Not only physically, but mentally.
08:00Because that is the first, that's why we have problems with dementia and all this, because we are not engaged
08:06mentally.
08:07That's right.
08:07So, playing chess, piano, guitar, you know, all these require memory work.
08:13Correct.
08:13And you mentioned earlier, circle of life.
08:18Yes.
08:18Yes, circle.
08:19Oh my God.
08:20If you read some journals out there on aging and the elderly, when they get to a certain age, right,
08:32they tend to disengage, which is dangerous.
08:36Yes.
08:36Right.
08:36That's why the social circle is very important.
08:39That's right.
08:41So, coming back to the Senior Citizens Bill, it aims to create a legal framework to protect the rights and
08:48welfare of older Malaysians.
08:50And as of June this year, the draft bill has been prepared, but the government is still conducting a stakeholder
08:57consultation.
08:59And it aims to table the bill in the next parliament sitting once engagements are complete.
09:05Right.
09:07Why do you think, Chia, why do you think Malaysia needs this law now?
09:12Personally, I think the law is needed.
09:15I know there's a lot of objection over this law.
09:18What is that?
09:18It's quite controversial.
09:21Because, for example, white people are against the law, all right, they are adult children who were abused before by
09:30their parents.
09:31Yeah.
09:31So, they feel that, hey, why should I now be caring for my parents who were not caring for me
09:37earlier?
09:37Hmm.
09:38You know, they were abusing not only, I mean, the father, let's say, for example, the father, not only abused
09:43the mother, but the children as well.
09:46You know?
09:46And they just abandoned the mother and the mother, just like that, and then went.
09:50In fact, personally, I just met up with one person a few months ago.
09:56This guy is in his 50s.
09:59And he told me a story.
10:01He said, hey, you know, I was abandoned.
10:05You know, my mom and my siblings are all abandoned by my father.
10:09He went to the U.S. to work and didn't give any sustenance to us, you know?
10:16And the mother actually brought up the children.
10:19And, in fact, I heard the mother was abused herself, you know, was slapped and all those, you know, abused.
10:26So, later on, he just came back two years ago or one year ago, you know, and suffering from health
10:33issues.
10:35And went back to look for the family.
10:38But the family does not want to accept him.
10:40Wow.
10:41You know?
10:43And the son who I was talking to showed me a picture of his father.
10:47You see, he couldn't find help from the family, so he went to seek help from his other family members.
10:55You know?
10:56And his family members couldn't take care of him and put him into an old folks home.
11:01Right?
11:02In Karak, from what I heard.
11:03In Karak.
11:04I was shocked when the son showed me the picture of his father in a cage.
11:09Oh, my goodness.
11:11In a cage.
11:12Because he was suffering from Parkinson's dementia or what.
11:17And he was wandering around outside the hotel.
11:22So, they got no choice.
11:24They have to keep him safe, so-called.
11:28But in a cage, I told the son, I say,
11:31Hey, this is your father, you know?
11:32Please don't treat him this way, you know?
11:34And you are the son.
11:35Despite whatever he has done, he distilled your father, your biological father.
11:42And I'm very happy that he took him out later on.
11:45Oh, that's good to know.
11:46Yeah.
11:47Yeah.
11:47Yeah.
11:47And this is all actual things happening, you know, in our society today.
11:52Yeah.
11:52And, you know, we've heard of this no-contact syndrome.
11:58No-contact, where children are just not in touch with their parents and some siblings.
12:06Yeah.
12:07Yeah.
12:08I mean, that's why there's a lot of controversy over this bill.
12:12Right.
12:12People not only feel abused, they, I mean, in the sandwich generation, many cannot support
12:18parents because they also have to support their own children.
12:23Especially now, many couples are working and they don't have enough financial support to
12:28support both sides.
12:29Some can barely pay for their children's, you know, like when you have to put your children
12:36in daycare and that can be quite expensive.
12:39And now you have, you added another cost.
12:41Yeah.
12:41So, I can see why that's, you know, that might be causing concern.
12:45Yeah.
12:45Correct.
12:46Correct.
12:47It's real.
12:48I mean, these are practical things we must look at.
12:51Yeah.
12:52It's good to have a law, you know, especially those who willfully neglect, abandon their parents.
12:59That's right.
12:59Yeah.
12:59I agree.
13:00Yeah.
13:01So, it's good to have a law.
13:02Yeah.
13:02In fact, many countries, Singapore, India, Canada, part of US, you know, many countries
13:08have that law.
13:10It's not to really punish, all right, unless you are willfully neglecting your parents,
13:16you know.
13:17So, but, I mean, I will go through the details about that, the mediation process and all those,
13:24you know, I don't know whether you want to touch on it at this point, you know.
13:29So, I think that should be the right way, like mediation first.
13:33So, maybe the welfare department or JKM can come in to assess the situation first before
13:39it goes to the tribunal or the court, you know.
13:43So, to assess what is the problem, actually, you know.
13:46Is it that they are unable to afford paying for the parents' sustenance, you know, because
13:53of their family situation, or is it because they were abused before, you know.
13:58So, it has to be properly assessed, and then maybe, you know, if it's really abused, then
14:05you will have to go to some tribunal or whatever to decide, you know.
14:09So, the first line is never punitive.
14:12The first line is to assess first.
14:14So, I believe this is what the ministry is going to take, you know.
14:18It's never punitive.
14:19That's why it caused a lot of concern to people.
14:22They thought immediately, oh, if I don't care for my parents, I will be punished.
14:27Yeah.
14:27You know, so, there's a lot of misconstrued, you know, over this thing.
14:34Mr. Che, what are the sort of problems that maybe the ministry is hoping to address with
14:40this?
14:41I mean, is it, are we looking at financial assistance?
14:43Are we looking at actual care and attention?
14:47Or are we hoping that the adult children will put their parents in the same house?
14:51Like, what is the ministry looking at?
14:53What sort of support are we looking at here?
14:55Actually, the Senior Citizen Bill, which is now known from what I know, is the Older Person's
15:02Bill.
15:03This one, I think I need to clarify, because I actually checked with the ministry, and they
15:08say that they want to be in line with the United Nations definition.
15:13So, the bill should now be known as Older Person's Bill and not Senior Citizen Bill.
15:18But they haven't announced it yet.
15:20They haven't announced it yet.
15:21But they have been using this term already.
15:23The minister has been using Older Person's Bill already.
15:26You know, so I think they're going to take off this Senior Citizen Bill name.
15:32Why is that?
15:33Okay.
15:34Because the United Nations actually used the term Older Person.
15:38That's why on October the 1st, it's called the Oldest Person International Day.
15:43I see.
15:43So, they want to go in line with this.
15:45All right.
15:46So, it's just a name, basically.
15:47So, actually, the Older Person's Bill or Senior Citizen Bill covers a lot of things.
15:54It's not just abuse, neglect, and abandonment of seniors.
15:57It's actually covering the rights of elderly.
16:01All right.
16:02The rights of elderly, which rights to affordable housing, rights to healthcare, you know, access
16:07to healthcare, rights to long-life learning, you know, rights to transport, good facilities
16:15or infrastructure, social support, you know, rights to, I mean, financial security, you
16:23know.
16:23So, it covers a wide range.
16:25But now, the focus is more on the elderly abuse and all that, because cases are rising.
16:32Yep.
16:33You know, many, I think, especially after COVID-19, you find that 2022, 23, the cases of people
16:42abandoning their parents in hospital increased drastically because of people having no jobs.
16:48Not only that, it was the pretext of sending their parents to hospital and then just leaving
16:58them there and not bringing them back home.
17:02Yes.
17:02Yeah.
17:02The worst thing is that they take away their ICs.
17:05The idea is it won't be traced back to the family.
17:09It is that bad, you know.
17:12Yeah.
17:12We work closely with Uncle Ken Tang.
17:15Have you heard of Uncle Ken Tang?
17:15Yes, of course.
17:16Mr. Kwan Chi Heng.
17:17In fact, he just attended our forum on Saturday, last Saturday.
17:23And we work closely with him and he share a lot of horror story about abandonment of elderly.
17:28Yeah.
17:29They send their parents off somewhere and don't collect them because they want to go on holiday.
17:34There were cases of abandoning parents in cemetery.
17:37Really?
17:38Yeah.
17:38You just ask him, he will tell you the story, you know.
17:41Okay.
17:41He was, he received calls from people, the public.
17:45He said, hey, there's elderly people in the cemetery.
17:49And he went to pick them up and then send them to some homes or what, you know.
17:53It is that sad, you know.
17:54And they don't have any identification with them.
17:57Simply because, like I said, they do not want them, want any police or what, check.
18:02They cannot trace back to the family members.
18:05So basically, they're just left to die there, whatever is it, you know.
18:09So, this is all real story.
18:12I see.
18:13These elderly cannot remember the contact numbers.
18:16Usually, these people have, I mean, they are already in serious health issues already, you know.
18:22So, they either don't remember things or what.
18:25Got into the baby.
18:25Yes, yes, yes.
18:26No, they could be.
18:27So, these are cases where the family members find it a burden.
18:32They couldn't manage these elderly already.
18:34So, they just abandoned them, you know.
18:38So, these are actual things, you know, that is happening to our society now.
18:43Very sad to say.
18:44That leads me to wonder, I mean, what could have possibly driven these adult children to do that to their
18:51parents?
18:52I mean, is it really that difficult?
18:54Are times really that hard?
18:56You know, do they really lack the funds to be able to care for their parents?
19:00I mean, what are some of the factors, Mr. Shah?
19:02I think it's various factors, I mean, like I said, I mean, you know, the sandwiched generations are facing a
19:09lot of pressure.
19:10The financial pressure of taking care of their children and their elderly parents, this one, you know.
19:16Another one is that they are not able to take care because they don't have the expertise to take care
19:21with cases like dementia, Alzheimer's, Parkinson's, you know.
19:25Even NCDs are simple.
19:27NCDs like...
19:28Non-communicable diseases.
19:29Non-communicable diseases.
19:30You know, you are suffering from kidney failure.
19:34Yeah.
19:34You have to go for dialysis.
19:35Diabetes.
19:37Three times a week, you have to go for dialysis.
19:39Can you afford time to bring your parents or your mom, your dad, your elderly, you know, to dialysis?
19:46Three times a week, you are working.
19:48You know, these are practical problems families are facing.
19:52You know what I mean?
19:53So there are various kind of issues.
19:55Why?
19:56It's not that they want to abandon their parents, some of them, you know.
19:59The majority, I think, love their parents.
20:01The circumstances.
20:02Yes.
20:03Correct.
20:03Correct.
20:05It's very sad.
20:06Because nowadays, the cost of living is so high.
20:09Yeah.
20:09You know?
20:09Everything is so expensive.
20:13And, you know, I mean, I'm sure you know about this, you know, because we are also facing a lot
20:18of cost of living pressure.
20:21I think everyone is at this point.
20:23Yes.
20:23Be it, you know, people who are married and the single ones as well.
20:27Yes.
20:28That's why those who are willfully neglecting or abandoning their parents, these are the ones that the act should come
20:35full force on these people.
20:36Okay, so talking about that, whether adult children could have legal responsibility to care for their parents, what does the
20:45bill say about that?
20:47Definitely, the bill says that children will have a legal obligation to their parents.
20:53All right?
20:54There's no doubt about that, you know.
20:56It's a matter of how you approach it, you know.
20:59Do you take the punitive approach or do you take the mediation approach first, you know?
21:05So, I believe the government, I mean, will take the mediation approach first.
21:09Even if the law...
21:12Yes, the law is there.
21:13We need the law.
21:15Definitely, we need the law, you know, especially for those willful, you know, abuse, neglect, and all those.
21:23That's why Singapore experienced, Singapore implemented the Parents Maintenance Act in 1995.
21:29So, there's 20 over years learning that have taken place.
21:33So, we should learn from them, you know, and not repeat mistakes that...
21:39Because in the early days in 1995, when they first implemented the law, they were using the law, the legal
21:45approach, you know, to punish, you know?
21:49So, what happened was that initially the cases were high.
21:53Subsequently, they realized that we should not be taking the legal approach.
21:57Because there are many cases, majority of the cases actually is that children love their parents.
22:03It's just out of circumstances that they have to, you know, not to say what, I mean, they have to
22:12let the parents stay somewhere or whatever, you know?
22:16So, majority love their parents, and as a result, mediation is the best approach to understand the problem, to try
22:23to resolve the problem, and not go to court.
22:26Because court will actually, I mean, create a lot of disunity in the family.
22:31It could be counterproductive, because now the children you are asking to care for these parents will now have to,
22:36you know, in worst case, never go to jail.
22:39Correct.
22:39If that happens, who will care for their parents?
22:41Yeah, and what you said earlier, what you said earlier about abuse, adult children are not willing to care for
22:50their parents because they were abused.
22:53Now, abuse comes in various forms.
22:54It doesn't have to be physical.
22:56Often times, the elderly parents can be really psychologically disturbed, and it's very difficult to deal with that.
23:09So, I think there comes a breaking point where the children say, I can't do this anymore.
23:15How am I going to take care of my verbally abusive parent?
23:20Yeah.
23:21Yeah.
23:22That's why, I mean, we don't have the expertise to handle our parents who may be having serious dementia problem,
23:31no?
23:31They can be violent.
23:33Yeah, that is true.
23:34Right?
23:34You can't even, some of us are not even trained to carry an elderly...
23:41Off the bed.
23:41From the bed.
23:42Correct.
23:42To a chair and all those.
23:43Yeah.
23:44I don't know how to do it.
23:45There is a way to do it.
23:46So, simple things like this.
23:47I think the government is now doing a lot of things.
23:50From what I heard, the ministry is now training 2,000 caregivers, both from institution and from the home, to
23:59train people at least basic caregiving.
24:03And I think they are focusing on institutional care and home care, which I think is a very good thing.
24:10I mean, involves everyone.
24:12It's a whole-of-nation approach.
24:13Everyone should know at least basic caregiving.
24:17The basic, yeah.
24:18For example, if you're lifting an elderly person, your mum or dad, off the bed, there is a way to
24:24lift them so you don't break your back.
24:26Correct.
24:26Yes, there is a way.
24:27Yeah.
24:27And I agree.
24:29All this is very important for home care especially.
24:32And how you handle bed sores and all those.
24:34So, you must know the basics, you know?
24:36So, I think the government is doing a lot of good things and especially under the minister, who might be
24:43Nancy Sukri.
24:45She's a wonderful person and I work with her closely and she does a lot of good works, you know,
24:51for the seniors today.
24:52And I just want to say that abuse also happens quite rampantly in old folks' homes.
25:01Yes, yes.
25:03Institutional abuse, all right?
25:05I mean, home abuse, okay, there are some.
25:08But I think institutional abuse is more rampant.
25:11Just last week only, I heard, you know, that there was somebody abused and she stayed in Sungai Petani, right?
25:20I saw some pictures.
25:21Wow, this is terrible.
25:22Yes, yes.
25:22I think I came across that, yeah.
25:25So, this is more serious.
25:28So, we have to address both home abuse and institutional abuse, you know?
25:35Right.
25:35What other protections or support could senior citizens expect should this bill be passed?
25:42Like I said, the bill is actually wide and encompassing.
25:46It's not just about abuse, neglect and abandonment, you know?
25:50It's about giving rights to seniors for lifelong learning, for proper social infrastructure, access to healthcare, you know, to financial
26:02security, you know?
26:03So, there are many things that need to be addressed.
26:06And the senior citizen bill is one that's very comprehensive to address all these issues, you know?
26:12So, that's why EPF is now allowing people to take out part of their money under ISAJATRA, I think, you
26:20know, to pay for the MHIT.
26:24Now, the government is going to roll out what they call the Medical Health Insurance Taka Fola early next year
26:32with a pilot in July this year.
26:34So, they need some funds to pay for private healthcare.
26:42So, MHIT is a collaboration between the Ministry of Finance, Bank Negara, and this, what do you call it, the
26:53Ministry of, one more, I mean three, three of them came out, Bank Negara, you know, came out with this
26:59program.
27:00Because, as you know, insurance premium has escalated in the past three years, very high.
27:07So, many seniors, retirees, have given up their insurance policy.
27:12So, as you can see now, the public healthcare system is almost collapsing.
27:16Because everyone is queuing up in the public hospitals and clinics going for treatment.
27:24So, we need to sort of, you know, get these people to have a private healthcare insurance so that they
27:31can actually utilize their insurance.
27:35Yep.
27:36Mr. Chair, I mean, just to pay devil's advocate here, there are some people that say, you know, you can't
27:42legislate filial paiti.
27:44You know, this is a very, a deeply intimate bond between a parent and a child.
27:49And for the government to come in, it could be seen as being, you know, trying to be a, what
27:55do we call, nanny state, trying to legislate something that's so deeply intimate.
28:00Where do you stand on that?
28:02Yes, I mean, I've said it's true.
28:06There's many against the law that, I mean, it's, you have a law, but you cannot actually buy love.
28:18You know, filial paiti is actually out of your gratitude to your parents.
28:23Yeah, and it's, and it's mostly an Asian thing.
28:26Yes, it's Asian values.
28:28Yeah.
28:28That we should bring back.
28:30Human values, in fact.
28:31Yeah, my days, you know, we have many children, and the children will take care of us when we grow
28:37old.
28:37You know, those days, you know, those days.
28:39But nowadays, it's a very different story, you know, because of, you know, cause of living and stuff like that,
28:45you know.
28:45Yeah, and people are, seems to be a very materialistic, you know, pursuing welfare, not so much of human values,
28:52you know.
28:53So, things have changed a lot since those days, you know.
28:56So, we have to bring back those values.
29:00And, yes, you can have a law to punish, but you cannot have a law to make sure that the
29:07children visit their parents,
29:08or, you know, to buy them a lunch, to meet them, to call them, you know.
29:14You cannot have a law to do that.
29:16You know, yes, you can make them pay for failing to do that.
29:19You can make them pay, use the law.
29:21But what's the point?
29:22It's only a short-term relief only.
29:25It doesn't work on the long-term.
29:27You see, elderly, what they want is spending some time with them.
29:33So, that's why when our Deputy Prime Minister, Ahmad Zahid Hamidi, mentioned about the Parents Care Act,
29:47which is the equivalent of Singapore Parents Maintainers Act,
29:52that come up with a law to punish if you don't care for your parents, right.
29:57Like, I, my first reaction was that I'm very, very sad.
30:03It's not that I'm happy about the bill.
30:05I'm very, very sad.
30:07Because, I mean, to make society, to come up with a law, to ensure society care for the parents is
30:18very tragic.
30:19Yes, in a way.
30:20I agree.
30:20It is very tragic, you know.
30:23You know, we must love our parents out of gratitude because, you know, when we were young, we were helpless,
30:29you know.
30:30They brought us up.
30:32I mean, pay us for our education, brought us up.
30:37And when they grow old themselves, you know, we don't even have time to meet them, you know, have breakfast
30:45with them, you know.
30:47And even abandon them.
30:49You know, I mean, society has deteriorated to such a level.
30:52Yeah.
30:53The fact that we even have this discussion today, you know, paints a, paints a not so rosy picture.
31:00Yeah.
31:01I mean, we will eventually be judged as a nation on how we treat our parents, you know.
31:07The country will be judged by how we treat our parents, you know.
31:11And a successful nation don't need a law.
31:16Which is true.
31:17But let's say, what if someone genuinely cannot afford to support their parents, financially support, or as we mentioned earlier,
31:31the difficulty, complexities in their relationship.
31:36How should the law deal with a situation like that, do you think?
31:39Yeah.
31:39I think the law would have provisions for this, you know.
31:43Protection for those who were abused before.
31:46And even the government maybe have to come in to provide for the financial security for all those elderly who
31:53do not, I mean, they were not, I mean, their children are not caring for them financially.
32:02So, looks like the government has to come in, you know.
32:04You know, I mean, what else can you do?
32:06You know, is that right?
32:07Yeah.
32:08So, I mean, that's the only way to go about this.
32:13I mean, to be honest, I myself have a lot of questions about this bill, you know, as a young
32:18person.
32:18I mean, I'm not abandoning my mom just so that if she's watching this, just so not, we're still going
32:22to go for our daily brisk walk in Putrajaya, so don't worry about that.
32:25So, actually, my questions are this, you know, number one, people are saying that it might widen the gap between
32:32the financially well-off and the not so financially well-off.
32:35Because the kind of senior citizens who will need care are likely going to be from the B40, not from
32:42the T20.
32:43And their children are likely going to be from that segment as well.
32:46So, they are the ones who are probably going to have to be the one doing the caring the most.
32:51Like, the Tan Sri and the Datuk Sri probably have enough in their savings to care for themselves.
32:56So, people are arguing on social media, I've read all these comments, people are saying that it might disproportionately affect
33:04the B40 more than it does the T20 or the M40.
33:08That's number one.
33:09Number two is that they're saying that, it didn't occur to me, but there's another thing that they're saying, you
33:19know, because they are, I mean, what if they're genuinely poor?
33:25I mean, maybe they are, they're genuinely B40, you know, they live in a small home, they can't care for
33:31their parents, you know?
33:33So, I think, like, this is something that the law needs to make clear.
33:36So, is it intentional or is it unintentional?
33:39So, that is something that I think needs to be taken into account.
33:43And also, abuse, on the point of abuse, right?
33:46I mean, a child can say, well, my parents were abusive when I was growing up, but the law might
33:52require that child to provide proof that he was abused.
33:56But then, how would you be able to provide that proof?
33:59Because at the point when that abuse happened, you were not in a position to document that abuse.
34:05So, how would you prove that?
34:06So, the law could be seen as being against them in that manner.
34:10So, I feel like, I'm not against the bill, but I feel like these are some of the things that
34:15the government needs to look into.
34:17Yeah, it's going to be a complex matter.
34:20It's not just, okay, we have this bill, now you have to follow the rules.
34:23But, yeah, there's a lot of nuance that will go into it.
34:26What do you think?
34:27Yeah, I think this is also one of the reasons why the ministry is now doing a survey, you know,
34:34to get more feedback from the public, you know, especially.
34:39And definitely, to me, I believe, until it's played out now, we do not know the details, you know, I'm
34:46just speculating on my part.
34:48We are.
34:49You know, the provisions will be there.
34:51I believe the provisions will be there for all those who, you know, who can't afford to pay for the
34:57bills for the parents and also for those who were abused before, you know.
35:02Because, I mean, cases of abuse by their parents before, I believe it will have to be decided by the
35:09court in terms of evidence to be given and all this stuff, you know.
35:12I mean, I cannot speak on this part, you know.
35:15I do not know how it's going to be played out, but I believe the law is fair, you know.
35:20You know, justice will be served.
35:23Yeah.
35:24That's all I can say.
35:24I mean, the whole point of the conversation is to raise issues for our listeners and hopefully for the stakeholders
35:30who are watching this to address the concerns.
35:33Whatever is it, I think the bill is still needed.
35:35We still need the bill, you know.
35:37It has been outstanding for some time already, many, many years already.
35:41So, we need to really push this out.
35:44Yeah.
35:44Because it's covering the other parts of the welfare and well-being of the elderly, you know, which we cannot
35:49afford to wait.
35:50That's right.
35:51What are the differences that you can see in the everyday lives of senior citizens if this bill is passed?
36:03Like I said, one thing is that care centres and all those, for example, needs to really, what do you
36:12call it, tidy their work.
36:15Because right now, a lot of care centres, like all folks home and all those, are not regulated.
36:20That's right.
36:20Because they are not licensed at all.
36:22And one of the reasons for that, correct.
36:25Yeah.
36:25It's nearly about 400 licensed.
36:27One of the reasons for that.
36:28Thousands of them are, sorry.
36:30One of the reasons for that.
36:31It's a tedious process.
36:32Correct.
36:33Of going through all the, getting the licences and some of that field.
36:38It's just a monumental task of getting everything in order with the government agency.
36:47The, you know, it's the, just the, it's a dicey situation.
36:54So a lot of them are operating without a licence.
36:56Yeah.
36:57You see, the operator themselves are saying that, are saying that the government agencies are not facilitating them to, to
37:07register.
37:07Or to get their licence.
37:10They have to comply with Kabomba.
37:12They have to provide with the Ministry of Health regulations.
37:16They have to provide with the Welfare Department regulations, you know.
37:19And every state, sometimes the law differs.
37:22Yeah.
37:22So that's why they're facing a lot of issues, you know.
37:26And one of the big issues is also getting caregivers.
37:29They couldn't get caregivers, you know.
37:32And government do not allow foreigners to be used as caregivers.
37:36You know, do not recognise, in fact, the profession of caregivers, you know.
37:41So it is a serious problem, you know.
37:44And as we age, and we don't have this in place, it'll be, you know, our country will face a
37:51lot of critical issues, you know.
37:53So I'm glad that now the government is looking into these long-term care problems and all those, you know.
38:01And I believe they are doing something about it, you know.
38:04And, yeah, so care, care, care.
38:10I mean, like even the nursing cares, under the PAFAS, which is the Private Healthcare Facilities and Services Act, you
38:20know.
38:20It has been gazetic for implementation since 19, sorry, since 2018, you know.
38:29But until today, it has not been enforced.
38:33Because if we enforce that PAFAS, then many of this has to be registered, especially nursing homes, you know.
38:41Because nursing homes, private hospitals are all registered under PAFAS.
38:45And they have to comply strictly by their rules, you know.
38:49Whereas the other, which is the, I think, Act 586, you know.
38:53The other Act is, which is the 506, which is under the care centers, which are all registered under JKM,
39:01which is the Welfare Department, you know.
39:03So, many, only about 400, only about, are registered with JKM.
39:09And 19 private nursing care homes under PAFAS, you know.
39:15So, eventually, I believe many of this will have to go to PAFAS, you know.
39:20JKM will then pass it to the Ministry of Health to regulate.
39:25And we first, I think the first, most important thing is get these people regulated so that we can monitor
39:31their, you know.
39:32Because a lot of abuse is happening there.
39:35So, if they are not registered, the Ministry doesn't even know where are they.
39:39How many of them are there out there, you know.
39:41Nobody knows this.
39:42So many operators out there, you know.
39:44Yeah.
39:45So, that's why the senior citizen bill has to be implemented, you know.
39:49So, that way, all this has to be, you know, controlled and monitored, you know.
39:54What are some of, I mean, we want to talk about how society can change to manage the situation, right.
40:04Is passing this bill enough, though?
40:09What are some changes that we, as a nation, can do to better manage the aging society?
40:16Yeah.
40:17I mean, law is one thing, right.
40:18Having the CSM bill is one thing.
40:20But more important thing is education.
40:22We got to start with education, educating children when they are young, especially at home.
40:29Because children see their parents, how they treat their grandfather, grandmother.
40:35Yeah.
40:35From there, they learn.
40:38So, that's why it's very important that education must always start at home.
40:43Don't leave it to their teachers in schools and all those, you know.
40:47So, everything starts from home, you know.
40:49It's very important that we have to bring back these values, you know, the Asian values, back to our society,
40:56you know.
40:56Which is very much lacking nowadays, you know.
40:59So, education and all this has to go together with the law.
41:03You know, never separately, you know.
41:06It has to...
41:07The children see, and they do.
41:09The children see, and they do.
41:11So, they have to inculcate gratitude, a sense of gratitude to their parents for bringing them out.
41:16Yeah.
41:17So, once you have that great sense of gratitude, it's very unlikely you will neglect or abandon your parents.
41:23Correct?
41:23Correct.
41:24Correct.
41:25Yeah, that's true.
41:27Yeah.
41:28What is the one message you like Malaysians to remember when it comes to caring for our elderly?
41:33Correct.
41:33So, I want to end with a story, if I may do.
41:37If I may.
41:38Alright.
41:38I got to know of this story when I was attending an event.
41:43So, it's a Nepalese children's story.
41:47Alright.
41:49And this story has something to do with a bamboo woven basket that is used by Nepalese to carry heavy
41:57things.
41:57And it's called a doko.
41:59D-O-K-O.
42:00I know why you call it doko or something else.
42:02It's called doko.
42:04So, what happened is this, according to this story, it's about philopiety.
42:09So, what happened is that there was this man, a family, you know, family man.
42:14And his father is old and, you know, cannot be able to help him on many things and a lot
42:23of health problems and all those, no?
42:25So, he find that his father is a burden.
42:29So, he decided to do away with him.
42:33Now, so, what happened is that he brought this doko, right?
42:38This bamboo woven basket, which Nepalese always carry heavy things around.
42:44So, and together with his young son, went through the forest and then up a cliff.
42:52You know, the story was that he was going to push the father off the cliff.
42:59Oh, dear.
43:01And then, the son started crying.
43:04So, the father asked the son, why are you crying?
43:07And up, the, the, I mean, the father was like, you know, because health issues and also didn't say anything
43:12or do it.
43:13He said, I cry because you don't, you know, it's not that you are pushing the grandfather away or whatever.
43:26But, you know, don't, don't, don't, don't lose the basket.
43:31You keep the basket.
43:33So, then the father was struck, you know, he said, hey, you know, he feels so guilty, you know.
43:41The son is telling him, you keep the basket so that in future, I'm going to use it on you.
43:48You know, so, he said, don't throw the father with the basket into the cliff.
43:53You keep the basket.
43:55So, the guy feels so very guilty and then he decided to bring his father back home.
44:01And this is a lesson about, you know, what you sow, you reap what you sow.
44:06You know, always remember, you got to train children to love your parents from the young, from young, you know.
44:12So, is this a story available on YouTube?
44:16Yes, yes, yes, yes, yes, yes.
44:18We can watch.
44:19You just...
44:20There's a lot of musical short stories you can watch on YouTube, yeah.
44:24Yes, yes.
44:26If you Google Doko and Napoli's story about Philopaiti, on Doko, you can get the story.
44:34Yeah, we'll watch that.
44:36So, at the end of the day, it's all about gratitude, learning to love, you know.
44:43Law cannot buy love.
44:44You cannot legalize love.
44:46Correct.
44:46We all need it.
44:47We all want to be cared for and loved by each other, right?
44:51Correct.
44:51Yes.
44:52Well, this has been insightful.
44:55Thank you very much.
44:56Thank you very much for being our guest today.
44:59Thank you to our listeners.
45:02Again, feel free to watch out for this episode soon on our platforms, which is at The Star Online and
45:11www.thestar.com.my slash metro.
45:14Yeah, go home and hug your parents.
45:17Yes.
45:18Call your mother.
45:19Call your father.
45:21Thanks, Mr.
45:31You
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