00:08Hello and welcome to the programme, I'm Stefan Grobe.
00:11My guest today is Mario Lubetkin, the Minister of Foreign Affairs of Uruguay.
00:15Thanks for joining us today, Minister.
00:17Thanks.
00:18Good to have you here.
00:19So, it's not every day that we have top visitors from South America in Brussels.
00:26What's the reason for your visit?
00:27So, tell us about your conversations, your meetings.
00:31First of all, you know, from last week, Uruguay is the chair of Mercosur.
00:35Mercosur, you know, perfectly because there is an agreement between Mercosur and European Union
00:39that started formally on 1st of May this year.
00:44And it's a quality change, not only for Europe and for Europe, but for Mercosur.
00:50It's a quality change for all of us.
00:53And it's very important for, how you can say, the taxpayers to understand why this agreement is important.
00:59And obviously that, in the framework of deep, our action, cooperation and initiative,
01:06one of the key sectors is to develop trade, to develop business and to work in another way between the
01:12private sector of both realities.
01:15We met with the private sector of Europe, organized the meeting with the authorities of the European Union,
01:24especially with the Commissioner of Trade, in which we opened a dialogue that we want to conclude in December
01:33because we want to organize in the framework of the agreement between the European Union and Mercosur
01:39the first trade event between the European Union and Mercosur
01:46that we want to organize on 2nd of December in Uruguay, during our presidency.
01:53Minister, there's a lot to unpack here.
01:55Uruguay was the first country to ratify the agreement.
01:59Now it holds the Mercosur presidency, as you said.
02:03Is this finally the moment when the EU-Mercosur agreement becomes a reality?
02:09Or are you still worried that it could fall apart?
02:13What are the most sensitive pending issues?
02:16First of all, the four countries of Mercosur ratify in two months.
02:19Never happened before something like this.
02:21So the parliament of the four countries ratify in two months.
02:25And that is something that is important to highlight.
02:28And we need to take into account that the Mercosur government are completely different.
02:33They are right government, they are left government.
02:35But we have all in the same vision.
02:38That is strategically for us.
02:40But not from us to Europe.
02:42It's from Europe to us too.
02:44That is the point.
02:45It's not one way.
02:46It's both ways.
02:48The fact...
02:48On that note, do you think that the whole ratification process will be over, finished, by the end of the
02:53year?
02:54No, no.
02:55It was not from our side.
02:57It was...
02:58And the point is from Europe.
03:00We don't know us.
03:01That's not a problem for us.
03:03We are not thinking about what can happen from the judicial way or what will happen.
03:11But we are sure that the Europarlement will ratify, I don't know where, 2027, 2028, I don't know.
03:17Well, I'm asking because the European Parliament hasn't ratified it yet, as you say.
03:21But they have taken the matter to court.
03:24What is your take on this?
03:25Are you worried that things go...
03:27We work with the fact that we start on 1st of May and why the issue will develop and we
03:33will increase business, democracy, cooperation, for sure.
03:39In the end of the day, the parliamentarian will understand and the citizen will understand that this is only positive
03:46for them and for their life.
03:48The point is, now we need to build and we will build.
03:51This is the reason why I'm here.
03:53Because now we are not thinking about what will happen in one year, two years.
03:57No, no, no, no.
03:58Because we are not time.
03:59The citizens are not time.
04:00The citizens need to have answer, concrete answer.
04:04And that is what we discussed with the European Union to work together in that in a very concrete way.
04:09Is the agreement today more important than it was five years ago?
04:14For sure, because we need to think and Europe need to think in the global scenario, which are the region
04:23that we can work together in a similar perspective till complementary areas.
04:31And they are for sure that we work in the agricultural way, but we have room for all in this
04:38game.
04:39We have room for all in this game.
04:41We are absolutely convinced and we are prepared about that.
04:45And the point is, we want the European Union to be prepared to in that because it's a win-win.
04:51It's not the fact that we will develop our capacity and the European Union.
04:56No, that is a room discussion.
04:58It was a room discussion, but it's a problem of our European friends.
05:02We will support, because it's important for us to show that that is what we sign in Paraguay was strategically
05:13for our life.
05:15Our life and the European life.
05:17So what are European citizens going to see?
05:21What are the tangibles that Europeans are going to see once this is ratified?
05:25Increase the economy, increase job, increase investment, because it's not investment from this part of the world to there, from
05:32there to here.
05:33In our region, there are a lot of money, too.
05:35A lot of money.
05:36There are a lot of power of companies.
05:38So the point is to think how the economy is changing the world.
05:43How is the situation today in Europe, today in our region, today in the U.S.?
05:46It's part of the global discussion.
05:48And we need, because we have many synergies, to try to develop our new capacities.
05:54Because we are not thinking for one year.
05:56We are thinking for five, for 10, for 15 years.
06:00One of the ideas that we have, you know, because we are the chair of Mercosur, but we are the
06:06chair of CELAC.
06:07CELAC is the 33 countries of Latin America and the Caribbean.
06:10One of our chairing position is to concrete a roadmap between the European Union and CELAC.
06:17So, 60 countries.
06:19That we never have this in the past.
06:23And if we go in the correct way, we will launch together between the European Union and CELAC in September
06:28in Europe.
06:29I like your excitement, Minister, but I also want to play devil's advocate here.
06:36If, eventually, the European Parliament, the European Union, rejects this deal, what are the consequences?
06:43How do you see it?
06:44For Europe, a lot, because we will continue with other countries.
06:48Could that be China?
06:49Obviously.
06:50Obviously.
06:51China is the most important counterpart for the most of the country in the region.
06:56For Uruguay, a small country, 3.5 million people.
07:00China is our first counterpart in the last 14 years.
07:04We are talking about trade.
07:05Because when we are talking about investment, it's Europe.
07:09And when we are talking about service, it's the United States.
07:13So, which is the point?
07:14No one way, no one.
07:16So, there are many countries in Asia, in Africa.
07:21I put an example.
07:22In these six months in which we will chair Mercosur, we will try to conclude the agreement with Canada.
07:30We will try to conclude our agreement with Emirates.
07:32We will try to conclude our agreement with India.
07:36So, no one way, no one.
07:38Just for this.
07:39But I am convinced that our friends from Europe will understand that.
07:43And we will continue because there are no other alternatives.
07:45On, again, under the assumption that the agreement might not be ratified by the European Parliament,
07:55would Uruguay be prepared to go it alone without the other markets or countries
08:01and get a strike, a trade agreement with the EU?
08:05We will substitute for other markets.
08:07We cannot wait.
08:08What we can say?
08:09What we can do?
08:10Sit and wait?
08:12Absolutely no.
08:12And there are key countries that want to sign with us.
08:17We are a real power.
08:18We represent more than 400 million, a very important percentage of our trade.
08:24I want to ask you about what else is going on in the world.
08:27And there are shifting political realities in the Western Hemisphere.
08:30As you know, Donald Trump is pushing for American dominance in the Western Hemisphere.
08:37We've seen it in Venezuela.
08:38We might see it in Cuba.
08:40How concerned are you about the trend that Washington wants bigger influence?
08:46We have a good relationship with the United States.
08:50They represent a big, real power.
08:52But we develop our capacity.
08:54We sign it.
08:55We sign it.
08:56We agreed with all the trans-Pacific countries that represent 25% of the trade in the world.
09:05We agreed with them.
09:06We agreed with ASEAN.
09:08We are developing with Africa.
09:10We are developing with the Gulf countries.
09:13For us, the key agreement is with the European Union.
09:16But the point is, we need to go ahead and we will go ahead.
09:20You say that Uruguay is on good terms with the United States.
09:27Good for you.
09:28But President Trump has pressured Uruguay in particular to restrict Chinese influence.
09:34But still, your president has deepened ties with Beijing.
09:38Doesn't that risk riling up Donald Trump?
09:41No, because we are not working against no one.
09:44That's the point.
09:45So we are not working with China against the United States.
09:48We are working with China, with the United States, and we have the agreement with the European Union, which is
09:52the point.
09:53We need to work more and better, especially with our friends, historically, that mean European Union.
09:58So the point is, it's true that we visited China last year, and we continue to have China like first
10:07counterpart in trade and in export our product.
10:12And we talk with all, OK, we want to dip with you.
10:16The point is, we don't want to dip with X because we don't want to dip the business with you.
10:23That is clever.
10:24So we think in a positive way.
10:25And what, you know, we took our position in the new government on 1st March last year.
10:32And this is the way in which we are working.
10:34And we will continue that.
10:36If you look at your neighbors in Latin America, there seems to be an emerging trend towards right-wing governments.
10:43Now, Uruguay has a center-left government.
10:45Are you feeling more and more isolated among your neighbors?
10:49Theoretically, if we read how was the map in which all the last eight elections was won by a right
11:00country, and we represent a center-left, we could be.
11:03But I can say to you that the life is more rich and interesting, that's what you say.
11:10Last week, last week came on Friday, I think, the president of Chile.
11:14And we, the visit was an incredible visit to develop an incredible cooperation for the future.
11:21All of us are thinking to dip our cooperation, because each one of us needs the other one.
11:26And that is something that goes beyond right or left, because this is the trend of the world now.
11:31What you say was correct, theoretically, six months ago.
11:35Now, with example, I can say to you that the areas of cooperation and business between the countries in the
11:44region, with Uruguay, for sure, will go in a positive way, for sure.
11:49Mario Lubetkin, foreign minister of Uruguay, thank you so much for your time, sir.
11:53It was a pleasure to have you here.
11:54Thanks to you for this invitation.
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