- 5 hours ago
Drew Barrymore, Alison Brie, Rachel Brosnahan, Tracee Ellis Ross, Debra Messing, Molly Shannon and Frankie Shaw star.
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00:03Welcome to Close Up with the Hollywood Reporter.
00:05I'm joined today by Molly Shannon, Tracee Ellis Ross, Frankie Shaw, Deborah Messing,
00:10Rachel Brosnahan, Alison Brie, Drew Barrymore, and I'm your host, Lacey Rose.
00:15Let's get right into it. What is the most amusing feedback you've received trying out for a part?
00:21I went up for Cape Fear, but I was like a washed-up Hollywood actress,
00:25so I went on a Sunday morning with the casting director's assistant in a basement,
00:29and it was this scene where he sticks his finger in her mouth,
00:33and I was like, so should I just stick my own finger in my mouth?
00:38And the assistant was like, whatever.
00:41And I was like, I don't know why, but the whatever was sort of the best feedback I got in
00:48the moment,
00:48which was, you're never getting this, I don't care, and let's just do this.
00:53And I was like, okay.
00:54My first photo shoot, my first sitcom audition out of NYU, I went in and I did my thing first
01:03time on camera,
01:04and I was like, I just killed that, killed it.
01:07And my agent calls me and says, okay, you didn't get it.
01:11He's like, uh-huh.
01:12He's like, they said you look like Kabuki.
01:16What?
01:17What?
01:17What are you doing with your makeup?
01:19Oh, my God.
01:20And I was like, I'm doing theater makeup.
01:22And they're like, oh, no, no, no, no, the camera's right there.
01:25I was like, oh, I do it for, and they're like, she looked like she was 39, and now she's
01:3423.
01:34And they're like, she's gotta go take a class.
01:37Exactly, at 39, you look like 23.
01:40Aw.
01:41Joke's on them.
01:44You'll always be my sister.
01:45Always.
01:47I had a casting director need to work on my girls, as they were referred to, because they were too
01:53low, which is where God put them, so I think they're in a really good spot.
01:55Um, but she called down the hall for one of her assistants to bring another bra, and she was like,
02:02what size are you?
02:03What size are you?
02:03During an audition?
02:04Yes, ma'am.
02:05Oh, no.
02:06Yes, ma'am.
02:07What, what, um.
02:09I'm sorry.
02:10Oh, my God.
02:10She was like, what size are you?
02:11And I was like, 34B.
02:12She was like, cool.
02:13Does anyone have a 34B?
02:14They come down, and it was a 32 something or other.
02:17I was like, that's not gonna fit.
02:18She was like, it's fine.
02:19They'll spill out.
02:20It'll be great.
02:22One time I was in audition for House of Lies.
02:26Terrible.
02:26And the casting director was saying that I needed to show more skin, so she took the shirt off her
02:33back and gave me her tank top so I could, Felicia Fasana, and she, um, and so then I was
02:39wearing her tank top, but I still didn't get the part.
02:42Was she wearing a bra while you were auditioning?
02:44She was wearing, yeah.
02:46That's actually kind of sweet.
02:47No, no, no, just kidding.
02:47Did you train her?
02:48My shirt, yeah, yeah.
02:49I've actually done that, too.
02:50When I was really young, and I was auditioning a lot for, you know, like, CW and ABC Family, and
02:55I grew up playing sports.
02:58I didn't know how to do my own hair and makeup, really.
03:02And, you know, I was like, I'm natural.
03:04People like that, you know?
03:05And my real hair, my natural hair is like really, really curly, and I had a ton of it, and
03:10I just didn't know how to do makeup.
03:11And I had the same thing.
03:13They said, I think you need to wear, like, a more form-fitting top.
03:16The casting director traded shirts with me, a more form-fitting top, and sent me out of the room with
03:21her assistant to have her do my makeup in the bathroom.
03:24But that wasn't the only time that happened in that office.
03:28It was like every time I went in there, she was like, you know?
03:33And you were like a child.
03:35And she was an adult woman, but her top was tight on your child body?
03:41Yes.
03:42Interesting.
03:42Wow.
03:42I feel like she was wearing shirts that were too-
03:44I mean, I'm 18, I'm not sure I had.
03:45Well, this is still a child body.
03:47Just because she knew that you were coming in, she was like, give me that small top.
03:51I have a more intriguing question.
03:53What sports did you play?
03:55Yeah.
03:56Well, uh, so I wrestled in high school.
03:58You did?
03:59This is going to be interesting.
04:02You did.
04:03I love it.
04:03I love it.
04:04That is crazy.
04:05But, like, traditional wrestling, where you wear a little hat.
04:09Yeah.
04:09And if you have hair, a little cap under your hat.
04:12It wasn't the best look I've ever had.
04:14Do you have one?
04:15I remember once going in an audition when I was first starting out, and I bumped into a girl.
04:20She was like, oh my god, have you gained, like, a hundred pounds?
04:23Right before I went in.
04:25No.
04:26Shut up.
04:27And I just remember, it really hurt my feelings.
04:29And now when I think about it, I won't say who the girl's name is.
04:32But I'll never forget, and I was like, how mean.
04:34Yeah.
04:35But at the time, I didn't have strong enough boundaries to be like, what a bitch.
04:39Well, you just wouldn't say to that anyhow.
04:42It was very nasty, and it was kind of trying to notch me down.
04:46Yeah.
04:47Yeah.
04:47I know I always have, like, the after moment of what I would have said.
04:51Yes.
04:51Don't we all?
04:52Because in the moment, I usually am like, oh.
04:54You're so shocked.
04:56But that happened recently.
04:57I'd gained a bunch of weight, and I was in a restaurant, and the woman goes, God, you have so
05:00many kids.
05:01And I was like, well, two.
05:01And she goes, well, and obviously, one on the way.
05:04And I looked at her, and I go, excuse me?
05:06And she goes, well, you're pregnant, right?
05:07And I, for the first time ever, I said, no, I'm just fucking fat.
05:13And...
05:13Which, by the way, you are not.
05:18Why are we continuing to have...
05:19The fact that people continue to make comments on weight size and whether, it's just, it's insane.
05:24And I think there really are people out there who want to seriously fuck with your mind.
05:28And I am glad that I'm the kind of person that's sensitive enough to, like, take the bullet and then
05:34have the afterthought rather than be the crass person who can play in that moment.
05:38And I can do that maybe if I'm like, it's written for me.
05:42Right.
05:42And I can have that kind of moxie, but in real life, I'm just like, ow.
05:45But that's actually the new one that I've learned to do is, ouch.
05:50Yeah.
05:51How was that helpful?
05:53You want to let them know that they said a hurtful thing without having to be a negative person in
05:59that moment.
06:00I'm not combative.
06:01I'm much more of a doormat.
06:02And somewhere in between, I would like to say to find, you know, a more rational therapist type of responsive.
06:10That was very hurtful.
06:12But if you're going to be that person, I'm so glad I take the high road.
06:15There's so much less traffic.
06:18But I never have that.
06:19I vote that one.
06:20I like that.
06:22Or I read a thing recently, like, where you can fog them.
06:27So you don't back back.
06:28What does that mean?
06:28It means you agree with a percentage of the truth.
06:31Like, I saw somebody on the way to Park City, and she was like, oh my gosh, you packed so
06:35much luggage.
06:36And it made me feel like embarrassed.
06:38Yeah, like that was her introduction.
06:40And I was like, it's not a good introduction.
06:42But anyhow, I agreed with a percentage of the truth.
06:46I was like, you're right.
06:47Sometimes I like to pack a lot of luggage because, you know, sometimes you get some stuff to bring home.
06:54So you agree with a percentage of the truth and it fogs through you.
06:57Okay, I knew I loved Molly, but now I'm in love with Molly.
07:03I'm vlogging.
07:04Isn't that good?
07:05I'm vlogging.
07:05I'm vlogging.
07:05Yeah, yeah.
07:06Where's it going from here?
07:07Okay, I'm gonna go to Will and Grace.
07:10You see me.
07:11I'm like, I'm vlogging.
07:14I'm vlogging.
07:14I'm going for that the next time.
07:17I'm just gonna be like, it's fogging.
07:19You are, have a show that's back now after.
07:26The line of what's funny, has it moved?
07:30Are there different things that make people laugh now than there was then?
07:33And do you feel that as a cast?
07:34I think that because 20 years ago when we started, the thing that made Will and Grace very specific was
07:44that it was provocative from the get-go.
07:46It addressed what was happening today in pop culture, in politics, and really pushed the boundaries.
07:55And I think because that was in the DNA of the show, coming back 11 and a half years later,
08:03everyone knew the voice of the show.
08:05Everyone knew the characters.
08:06And so we didn't have to ask permission.
08:08We didn't have to apologize.
08:10They were like, oh, they're just doing what they always did.
08:13Okay, he's a man, but he's aged into a lesbian.
08:15Steven Tyler!
08:16John Boyd!
08:17Newt Gingrich!
08:18Yes!
08:18Okay.
08:20Uh, she's...
08:20Don't get me started.
08:22Jada Pinkett Smith!
08:22Yes.
08:23Um, oh, oh, we want to love her, but she makes it impossible.
08:28Caitlyn Jenner.
08:28Of course.
08:29Um, oh, uh, uh, rich, hostage.
08:34Melania.
08:34Beret.
08:35Patty Hearst!
08:36Yes!
08:38Woo!
08:40Obviously, now with the state of the world, there is a lot more to comment on.
08:45And it feels like there's a lot more at stake than when we began.
08:50But I actually feel like we are literally just staying the course.
08:56Do you guys feel a responsibility to be commenting on what's going on in the world, whether it's through your
09:01shows or as actresses?
09:03I think as a human being I do, um, and not necessarily commenting on it, but being an active participant
09:09and moving the needle in the direction that I think it needs to be going.
09:13Whether that's through my work, which sometimes is not within my hands because it's the script that's handed to me,
09:19but the beingness that I bring to that role, or sort of how I use my voice and the platform
09:24that my work has offered me.
09:26The story of Rainbow Johnson has always started with, hi, I'm a doctor, but that's only half of my story.
09:35I am many things. I am a mom, a wife, a fashion icon.
09:41Oh, that's when I get crazy, a fashion icon. Like, it's...
09:44Listen, so maybe I can be all of those things, just not at the same time.
09:50So you're saying you're going to...
09:51Shh, shh, shh, shh, shh, stay.
09:54I think, uh, my show creator, Victor Fresco, who is just a genius and has given me the greatest gift
10:01in my life at this moment.
10:02I think he's commenting a lot with the show on the narcissism state of the world, the gluttony state of
10:09the world, the attitudinal, like, as far as women not wanting to take crap anymore.
10:15But how do you, you know, live in your id and fight without being selfish and it negatively affecting everyone
10:23around you?
10:24And just a woman who's dynamic, but wrong, but living her best, like, life herself, giving it the full Oprah.
10:34Holy , are you chewing the post?
10:37Okay, here's the deal.
10:40Mommy's going a little crazy down here, so I need to get out.
10:44And I know you're worried I'm going to go out there and kill somebody, but think about all the people
10:49I haven't killed.
10:51Literally everyone in the world, except three people.
10:54Look, I'm sorry, but you put me in charge.
10:57And I'm not letting you out.
10:59And stop chewing the post.
11:00It holds up the whole house.
11:03You either have to have a big, daring spine in a show, I think, and we're all in those kind
11:11of shows, which is amazing,
11:13or you've lost the current audience, because we've just come too far.
11:17It's all been put out there, and we can't go back to, like, this Mary Neverland type of Leave it
11:23to Beaver.
11:23So they could make a show called Leave it to Beaver.
11:26It would be very different.
11:28And that would work in the current climate.
11:30For sure.
11:31We've just come too far, and so I like that whether it's metaphorical or character, these shows that we're all
11:38a part of are in the advanced current state of womanhood and the world.
11:42And then you can talk about it through a really cool channel rather than being on the soapbox, which in
11:48this day and age, it's so hard to be right.
11:50You're possibly wrong, then you feel bad, then you pull back.
11:54It's a very tricky, slippery slope to put yourself out there.
11:58So I like doing it through this character and this show that I feel safe.
12:02Yeah, I have a much harder time exposing myself politically as myself than I do through the show, my show
12:10Smilf.
12:10And you're writing it, so it's...
12:12Yeah, so I, like, often we, you know, before we start writing this season, it'll be like, okay, everyone read
12:17all these books.
12:18Here's, like, the list of articles that we're going to sort of incorporate and infuse in our show.
12:24And in that sense, like, I sort of feel safe being, you know, sort of being behind the show in
12:30that way.
12:31I'm going to meet him tonight, and I'm going to get him to confess.
12:34Richard who?
12:35My dad.
12:36Yeah, I'm going to meet him.
12:38I'm going to get him to confess.
12:39I found him online.
12:42Well, it's a bad idea.
12:44I thought maybe you might just come with me or something.
12:49You're not going to get him to confess.
12:51He didn't do it when you were little.
12:53He's not doing it now.
12:54Okay.
12:55Yeah, I'll just go by myself.
12:57You know, this show definitely would never have been able to exist in any other time.
13:03Like, our first season was essentially about sexual assault.
13:07Like, that was, like, one of our core themes and sexual trauma.
13:10And, like, and it's like this little feminist comedy on a, you know, premium cable network.
13:16And so I do feel so grateful that the tides are changing.
13:20Absolutely.
13:21I feel so lucky to get to work on GLOW with all of these feminist powerhouse women who are so
13:28intelligent and informed.
13:30I don't write on the show.
13:32So it's, like, out of my control.
13:34I do think it's a show that could have been made any time, but the meaning has changed even from
13:40when we started shooting it.
13:42You think you got me, but then I come back around with the soon-to-be-famous rough toilet paper!
13:50Ah!
13:50And then, you know, it's fight, fight, fight.
13:52I'm bad.
13:53You're good.
13:54I'm winning.
13:56Ah!
13:56Caw!
13:57You're winning!
13:59Ah!
14:00Oh!
14:01Stop!
14:01Oh!
14:02She still got me!
14:03Oh, you stupid American swine!
14:07For the pair!
14:08And big finish!
14:10One cup of breakfast!
14:12You know, when we started shooting it, Liz Flayhive and Carly Mencher, our showrunners, thought,
14:16we're making this show in the time where we're going to have our first female president.
14:21And that's where we're leading this story.
14:25Oh, yeah.
14:25And the election happened while we were shooting season one, and obviously the tone of the world changed,
14:31and it gave the show a different meaning and a different importance.
14:36You know, I agree that I think in the past I've felt much more timid about expressing,
14:41and I do still feel a little bit timid, and you can be targeted and belittled in a way that's
14:47like,
14:48you're an actress, why does your opinion matter?
14:51But it goes back to what you were saying, Tracy, about I'm a human being, I'm a citizen in this
14:54country.
14:55Yeah.
14:55So I'm allowed to have opinions, you know, and now we're living in a time where it is more and
15:01more vital to stay silent
15:03because you're afraid of losing part of an audience.
15:07Right.
15:07Would be a real shame.
15:08Where I feel like in the past I'd be like, I am just an actress working on a comedy show,
15:12and like, I don't know, do I want to ostracize people who disagree?
15:17Right.
15:17But there are such glaring issues.
15:21Yeah.
15:21It is a business decision.
15:23I have other companies other than in doing film, and you know, I sell out of Walmart, Amazon, Ulta, all
15:29these different companies,
15:30and I don't want to alienate people.
15:33And I don't, but it's coming from a place of I don't ever want to alienate people.
15:37I'm not one of those bitches who says nasty things about anyone.
15:40Right.
15:40I don't have that kind of animosity.
15:42I'm all about inclusion.
15:44So it is a very slippery slope.
15:46But the one thing about all of our shows and doing this and where I couldn't have more pride other
15:51than being with brilliant women
15:52is the world is not funny, and we are doing comedy.
15:57And if there is one medicine I need with my life, it is comedy.
16:02Take me out of shit as you are telling me what it is you're trying to say.
16:08And comedy is the antidote to everything, and laughter is the key.
16:13And when it's heavy and it's maudlin and it's all stakes in, I want to run away.
16:18I can't help it.
16:19I need laughter.
16:21I think there's something to that.
16:23You have a show, too, where it has become sort of relevant in a way that going into it while
16:29you were filming it, Frankie U2,
16:30you perhaps didn't know just how relevant these shows would be.
16:34Has that changed your approach or the conversations as you film season two or as you produce season two?
16:41Well, the best part about our show has been that it hasn't changed the conversation at all.
16:46It just has added to a conversation that has been swelling.
16:52And I think people are viewing the show through maybe a different lens, but it actually has been created exactly
16:59as it was intended to be.
17:01I have wonderful parents.
17:03I've had a very comfortable life.
17:05And though I knew that love would be great, I had no idea it would be anything that could justify
17:09what I paid for this dress.
17:10But I paid for that dress.
17:12We're very happy.
17:13And because it's better than anything I could have imagined, I thought I should get up here today and tell
17:18all of you that I love this man.
17:23And yes, there is shrimp in the egg rolls.
17:25What?
17:27There he is.
17:29This theme and idea of a woman discovering a voice that she didn't know she had resonates in a new
17:37way now.
17:38And that's, I think, been nothing but encouraging in the midst of a lot of turmoil and also a lot
17:46of hope.
17:47I feel like despite a lot of sadness and trauma and worldwide despair, I'm so encouraged by this moment we
17:56are living in, this exact moment.
17:58People are feeling a responsibility in a positive way to play an active role in their futures.
18:04And these are all things that we talk about through Marvelous Mrs. Maisel and through the titular character, Midge.
18:11It is interesting working on a period piece, do you find?
18:15Because I feel like with our show set in the 80s, there's so much stuff that you want to point
18:17out about the injustices that were happening to women and why women need to speak their voices.
18:22And the fact that it resonates so much now that we still need to be rule breakers and fight for
18:28certain rights is just interesting.
18:32I would say the same that I don't think it's changed the dialogue of our show or how it's being
18:36made.
18:37I guess it just makes it more relevant.
18:39Yeah, well, art at its best, and I feel like especially comedy, it holds up a mirror to the world
18:44we live in.
18:44It shows you who you are, who you want to be, who you maybe don't want to be anymore.
18:48Who you can be.
18:50Yes, and period pieces have been utilized that way.
18:53Because I mean, for better and for worse.
18:54Because there's a bit of distance, yeah, to go like, look what was happening then.
18:57And then you go, wait, that's still happening exactly the same way.
19:01Right.
19:02Oh, crap.
19:02You know, yeah, it's that, yeah, exactly.
19:05Well, in that vein of humanity, I think also the best comedy in the world is not just, I love
19:12a good fart joke, but like, I do.
19:16But there are also two different brands of comedy, and it is always the comedy with heart.
19:23Yeah.
19:23That's where I get the most excited by something funny.
19:26It's like, you know, even a film like Terms of Endearment, that's one of the most heavy emotional films in
19:32the world.
19:32It is just encompassed in this joy, and love, and humor, and broad comedy.
19:39Where are her?
19:39Yeah!
19:45I mean, it's like, that to me was such a lesson in storytelling, that you could want to rewatch something
19:54that's hard to watch.
19:56But it's comedy and heart.
19:57To me, it's like, in a man, I want humor and intelligence, or maybe something else.
20:02I don't know what I want in a man.
20:03But be funny, please, God.
20:05Yes.
20:06But I know in storytelling, I love heart and comedy.
20:10Those are the most dynamic and perfect combo.
20:13I've been attracted to comedic men.
20:16Oh, they're not?
20:17I know.
20:17Interesting.
20:18As you said that, I was like, well comedic men are usually a client who gets more sense of humor.
20:24You want a guy that you can laugh with.
20:25Yeah, yeah, yeah.
20:26Laugh with, yes.
20:27But not like a funny guy.
20:28Doin' the comedy act.
20:29Yeah, like comedians.
20:30You can't have two of the same.
20:32You need, you notice a lot of louder moments of quieting.
20:35Yeah, yeah, yeah.
20:35Like the turtle and the hailstorm.
20:37Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah.
20:38We got a hailstorm.
20:39We're always saying that all of us at this table need like a quiet guy.
20:43Wait, what?
20:44We're saying that all of us at this table need like a quiet guy.
20:47Slightly more quiet.
20:48We're like, we're putting on the show here.
20:51Yeah.
20:51I like funny guys, comedian men.
20:55It's different.
20:55That's a different thing.
20:56That's a different thing.
20:57I had like a connection there while you were talking.
20:59I was like, I should have kept that in my mouth.
21:01No.
21:02No, but I agree.
21:03And there is a huge chasm in difference because professional comedy, I think a lot of people
21:08remove themselves from their life, the world, society, the people around them to be able
21:13to comment on them objectively.
21:15Yeah.
21:16So you can't get in there and that's what I've seen.
21:18A connected vulnerability that is based and that would be.
21:23Yeah.
21:24I just want a guy who's like, has a sense of hammer.
21:26Yeah.
21:27I think that's fair.
21:29Yeah.
21:29Speaking plain awkward, you would say that.
21:31Is that too much to ask?
21:32Yeah.
21:33Exactly.
21:34Can it just be funny?
21:47I think there's been a lot of conversation around Roseanne specifically recently.
21:53Can you and should you be able to separate the art from the artist?
21:57Do you mean like.
21:58It depends on how bad they are.
22:00Yeah.
22:00It depends on how harmful they are.
22:02And what the harm is.
22:03Right.
22:03And that people are actually hurt by, by their beliefs and by their actions.
22:09But she made it clear from the beginning that this was her.
22:12She was a standup comic.
22:13Right.
22:13And she said, this is just me.
22:15I'm just being me.
22:16Mm-hmm.
22:17And so that's very different than saying, I'm creating a different character.
22:22And then when you have someone who is very outspoken on social media and says things that
22:29are incredibly racist.
22:31Normalizing white supremacy essentially at its core.
22:34Absolutely.
22:34And I think the problem is is that, you know, she, she is more right wing than her character.
22:43And I think that's where it's, it becomes, at least for me, very hard to separate the two.
22:49Mm-hmm.
22:49That there's a difference between being tolerant and tolerating intolerance.
22:54There's no need.
22:55To tolerate intolerance.
22:57That's not what leads to a productive or unified society.
23:02And that to me feels like the thing at the core of, can we separate an artist from their art?
23:07Yes.
23:07We do all the time.
23:08We have, we have forever and ever and ever.
23:11Should we?
23:11I think we need to reevaluate.
23:13And we're in different times.
23:15Yeah.
23:15I think that there's a different compass that's been set.
23:18And I think that there is a recalibration that needs to occur that I think is the reason that it
23:24feels so frightening right now.
23:25Mm-hmm.
23:25What's the answer?
23:26How does it change?
23:28I mean, your, your show, there was an episode that was shelved because it had to do with Take a
23:34Knee.
23:35Right?
23:35Is that true?
23:36No, it was Trump, right?
23:38There's an episode that was shelved.
23:40That was shelved.
23:41But Black-ish has explored plenty of other charged issues.
23:44As a cast, do you have conversations about what made this one different?
23:47We have conversations about the subject matter of our episodes.
23:50Yes, we do.
23:51Very vocal, strong conversations about those things.
23:55The details of why the episode was pulled and everything that has surrounded that, I do not have the answers
24:02for.
24:02And to a certain extent, I have purposefully stayed out of those conversations because I've had no power to do
24:09something beyond that.
24:11Right.
24:11I have asked for the information and pushed for the information that I felt would be helpful to me and
24:18constructive in what I can do with it because I find it frightening.
24:23We did an episode in our show all about Nazis and I'm like, okay, here we go again with the
24:31daringness of Santa Cruz to diet and their tone.
24:34And then as it was being shot, the Charlottesville march was going on simultaneously.
24:39We would go from our trailer to watching CNN and go in to shoot this scene.
24:43And then the scene is really about when one of the Nazis comes in in a wheelchair.
24:47What is the real discrimination there?
24:50And are you discriminating because you're discriminating?
24:53Oh my God.
24:54And he's like, you're discriminating against me because I'm in a wheelchair.
24:57And she's like, no, that's not why I'm discriminating against you.
25:00Because you're a Nazi.
25:01And then it just gets so crazy and then she eats them.
25:04Of course.
25:05And that's just a great way to solve a problem.
25:08I was like, she better still eat them.
25:11And it was a fun way for me to deal with what is happening right now that I don't believe
25:18is happening.
25:19And yet the make believe gave me some way of dealing with it in a comedic and crazy way.
25:26I love that.
25:27All right.
25:27We're living in whether we call it the Me Too era or the Time's Up era.
25:31I'm curious for you guys how your world and your perspective has changed in a concrete way.
25:38Whether there's one thing that you've done that you hadn't done before.
25:41Or a conversation you've had that you wouldn't have otherwise had before this movement.
25:46In all honesty for me, the conversation, the narrative is exactly the same.
25:51This is a conversation and a narrative that I've been having both publicly, personally, privately, like all of those things.
25:57The biggest thing that has changed for me is the connection and the relationship with my fellow women.
26:03There is a camaraderie, a connection, a partnership, a shared experience.
26:08I mean, if the Golden Globes is one weird example that is very connected to our industry, but just that
26:16red carpet experience was like epically different.
26:18I mean, I remember seeing you and, you know, it wasn't about like, we're going to share my dress because
26:24she might want to wear it or something.
26:26Like there was a real purpose.
26:28There was a purpose.
26:30We were connected to the collective power of us as women.
26:33We sort of switched the power relationship on that carpet.
26:37We were there as a collective force.
26:40And that to me was a Hollywood example, but I have experienced it behind the scenes in a way that
26:47I feel like has absolutely shifted.
26:50There's also been a collective release of shame.
26:53You know, we're all like, oh, these were secrets that we all kind of had that we talked.
26:58Yep.
26:58And now we're all like, oh, yeah, we've all been we're all a part of it.
27:01Yep.
27:01And the stigma has sort of gone away.
27:03Agreed.
27:04So that's been really cool.
27:05The conversation has just gotten bigger in that way that like the conversations used to happen in tiny rooms just
27:11with your best girlfriend of like, I don't think this was OK.
27:14With a little shame involved.
27:15Totally with shame involved.
27:16And maybe I read it wrong with a doubt.
27:20And now it's like the floodgates are open and but in a good way where everyone is the shame has
27:27been removed.
27:27The doubt has been removed.
27:29Hearing other women's stories in such an open and massive way has sort of given everyone permission to go like,
27:37oh, my God, I'm not alone.
27:39And like, it's not OK.
27:40I feel like it's connected us to the larger story of what is happening for women globally.
27:46And, you know, I understand.
27:47But for black and brown women, sexual harassment and sort of the inequality has been a part of the experience.
27:55And there has been work being done and being spoken for years, not just for black and brown women across
28:01the board.
28:02But I feel like the Hollywood thing sort of put it in the forefront.
28:05And there's nothing wrong with that if that is a light that is shined on the larger picture towards women's
28:10equality in general and stopping violence towards women.
28:13Well, there's political.
28:15There's Hollywood.
28:16Yeah.
28:16It's about pulling together all the big.
28:19All the pieces.
28:19Culpable groups.
28:20I was always a producer.
28:22And I was never an ingenue.
28:24I was like a kid actress, had a downfall, came back, was a producer.
28:28So men never looked at me that way.
28:30And I've wondered if that empowerment of just thinking you're next to someone and assuming that and not ever behaving
28:38in any way like you're asking for their not only permission, but their acknowledgement or their sort of like, do
28:48you think I'm OK?
28:49It's always been a this is what we're doing and we're doing it side by side.
28:54And I think that dynamic really saved me out of a lot of situations that could have been completely different.
29:00I think the question of is there something you you've done now that you would never have done in the
29:05past?
29:06You know, at the Golden Globes, when I spoke on live TV and talked about E! and saying, why aren't
29:13you paying your women equally?
29:14I never would have ever even thought about doing that.
29:18And the reason why I did was exactly what you were talking about.
29:21It was the community of women and being connected, you know, on a daily basis with groups of women and
29:30saying, well, what can we do?
29:32How can we use our collective energy and our collective platforms to focus the conversation?
29:41And it was because of this conversation, it was like, oh, well, you know, if you can, this might be
29:47a great idea.
29:48It was Amy Schumer.
29:49She was like, Deborah, if you can get there first, that would be awesome.
29:52You know, and it was her idea.
29:54And, you know, it was only because I knew that there were tons of women who were like, I am
30:02with you.
30:03You know, I have your back.
30:06You know, there's not going to be fallout because we are all here standing right beside you.
30:11It's really extraordinary.
30:11Do you guys have any fear of the fallout?
30:14No.
30:15I don't either.
30:16No.
30:16I honestly don't.
30:17I can't go backwards.
30:18Do you think it's because we're older?
30:20Well, maybe.
30:20There was a writer in my room whose dad told her not to put Time's Up, like, on her Instagram
30:26because he's like, you don't know where this movement's going to be in four years.
30:31That makes me so mad.
30:33I know.
30:33I mean, I've had male friends say to me, okay, you're going too far with this Time's Up shit.
30:38And I'm like, what the fuck does that mean?
30:40I'm going too far with this equality thing?
30:43What are you talking about?
30:44But again.
30:45I'm going for equal, buddy.
30:48And, Deborah, what my point was earlier is, like, I was never looking for approval.
30:53And that's how you approached that red carpet moment.
30:56Yeah.
30:56And if we, like, it's almost like, you know, the constant, like, if you go at it without demeaning people,
31:04maybe that's what your dad is questioning.
31:06It's like, is it just going to be such a male takedown that as women we're going to wonder, like,
31:11oh, God.
31:11But that's not the point of it.
31:13Or just, like, people doing things like that are going to die out.
31:16Well, here's the thing.
31:16Here's the thing.
31:18That's one way to think about it.
31:20Women aren't going anywhere.
31:21No.
31:22No one should, in any aspect of one's career or life or anything, the point is not for you to
31:28do something you're not comfortable doing.
31:29Right.
31:30I think you've got to go as slow as the slowest parts of yourself.
31:32And everybody has a different way, a different place, a different kind of voice, and a different, different hands to
31:39put into this.
31:39So whatever that looks like for you, and if it looks like you just literally living your life in the
31:44most authentic way that you can live it, that's exactly what it should be.
31:48This is not about shaming someone for not being able to speak up or put a hashtag times up in
31:54their platform.
31:55It's really about, for me, the times up is so that anyone can have the space to be exactly who
32:02they want to be as they choose when they choose to be it.
32:05If you want to sleep with a man or a woman, if you want to, whatever that may be, that
32:10is the equality that I am fighting for.
32:12And that kind of social, racial, sexual justice is what I'm looking for in a world.
32:17And if my actor platform gives me a space and a way to reach a larger group.
32:23I remember when I was campaigning for the Obama campaign early in 2007, and I was terrified.
32:28And I also felt annoyed by myself.
32:30I was like, what the fuck?
32:32Like, I get that I'm a human being and a citizen and an actor that has a platform.
32:35But as an actor, like, why?
32:38Like, why should I be going and doing this?
32:40And my thought was, you know what?
32:42If the fact that someone watches Girlfriends, which at the time was the show, if the fact that someone watches
32:47Girlfriends and comes here to see me because I'm on Girlfriends and I get to turn the attention to something
32:54else, then that's all that matters for me.
32:57If my little thing can bring somebody towards something that they wouldn't normally come towards, and then I can share
33:04something that would open whatever that is up and shine light somewhere else on the more vulnerable, the most vulnerable,
33:11whatever that is, then it's okay for me.
33:14Sure, sure.
33:15Okay, stop now.
33:16I think this is sort of what also a lot of all of our shows are doing when we talk
33:21about the relevance of the work that we're doing and the topics that are covered in our shows.
33:26Early on in shooting GLOW, Betty Gilpin, who's on the show with me, described our show as a Trojan horse,
33:31like, to get these, like, real stories about women into, like, men's homes who expect to see girls in tiny
33:38clothes, like, wrestling each other.
33:40Right, right, right.
33:41But actually, we're smuggling in, like, truth and, like, dynamic female friendships and heart and relatability and, like, stuff like
33:53that.
33:54Smuggling truth.
33:55I can't stop thinking about all of you in your leotards jumping out of a horse.
33:58Yes, smuggling.
33:59Talking about female friendships.
34:01That's awesome.
34:03I would watch your show that way.
34:05Debra, the conversation you had on that carpet was about pay parity.
34:09That is something that has become a larger discussion in Hollywood and beyond.
34:14I'm curious if it's changed the conversations you've had in your own workplace.
34:18Something you feel more comfortable asking for and having conversations about.
34:25Yes.
34:27Yeah.
34:28I think it feels part about, again, the shame.
34:33The shame has gone away out of this idea of asking for what you're worth.
34:39Mm-hmm.
34:39Asking to be paid equally.
34:42But also, I'm noticing, particularly with equal pay.
34:47And, obviously, this industry is what's surrounding me right now.
34:49So, this is where this exact conversation has lived for me.
34:52Although, it's rippling down through all sorts of other industries as well.
34:56But, the biggest thing that I've noticed with the conversation surrounding pay equality is the men in my life who
35:05are amazing, who are progressive, who love women, who just don't realize.
35:11Mm-hmm.
35:12The Me Too movement, the same thing, who just didn't know.
35:16And, all of these women having honest conversations with the men in our lives as well has emboldened them to
35:25take action towards pay equality too.
35:28Mm-hmm.
35:28Which I've found really encouraging.
35:30I feel like pay equality is such, it's a harder topic for people to discuss because people are so uncomfortable
35:38talking about money.
35:39Yeah.
35:40Mm-hmm.
35:40And, I can't speak to other industries, but I know that in ours, it's so taboo.
35:45You're never on set talking to another actor about how much they're getting paid on the project that you're doing.
35:50And, that's why it's been able to run rampant for so long that the gap has been able to get
35:56wider and wider.
35:56Precisely.
35:56Because you've had no idea.
35:57Right.
35:58Agents, no.
35:59Agents, no.
36:00Agents, no.
36:00That's right.
36:01That's right.
36:02What the hell?
36:03Agents now having those conversations is my point.
36:06Yeah.
36:06Is there now more of a pressure?
36:08Yes.
36:08Well, I don't know if there's more of a pressure.
36:10I have found that there's, I have more freedom to have transparency.
36:13I actually have had real dollar conversations with girlfriends of mine.
36:17Oh, wow.
36:17In this industry and said, okay, here's what it is.
36:19And, as a black woman in this industry, and we know what the dollar does in all those different areas,
36:24with, it is staggering, the difference.
36:29So, what do you do about it?
36:31Then what?
36:31Well, in what I'm fighting for versus what you might be fighting for.
36:35I am fighting to get where you start, things of that nature.
36:38However, I will say that one of the things, I had a conversation with an actress friend of mine who
36:42was in this position.
36:43And, by the way, recently a lot of actresses are discovering, in hindsight, as number one on the call sheet,
36:49that the number two male was actually making more than that.
36:52That's right, yeah, sure.
36:52We have discovered this.
36:53There's a lot publicly that's been out there, and then there's a lot that I know has been shared with
36:57me personally.
36:57You've got to make a phone call.
36:59But, I will say that one of the things in having a conversation that I said to one of my
37:03friends is,
37:04you know what, let's take a step back.
37:07Let's not worry about what he's making or was making.
37:09Let's take a second before we go there, what do you think you should be making?
37:14Right.
37:14Outside of the context of the equality of him or not, what would be comparable to what you are contributing
37:20to your show,
37:22in the way, with the career that you bring, and with what you've been making, and what you think you
37:26should be making?
37:27And the truth is that it's the same thing I did.
37:29You come up with a number that's pretty accurate without even thinking about what a man is making.
37:34Okay, what you just said is really important to me because, like, the Time's Up movement, you know,
37:39all of these things that's happening, for me, it is tone.
37:42And I don't want to make men feel bad or little boys who are growing up in this world and
37:47see women just eviscerating men.
37:49That is not right.
37:50I am not behind that.
37:51And that is not a tone I can get behind.
37:53Women having each other's back, that I'm behind.
37:57I've always been the biggest girl's girl.
38:01I've grown up with that male-female dynamic with pay in Hollywood, and not to be heavy, but my mom,
38:11I mean, you talk about Hollywood, you're talking about so much money.
38:14And it's like, it's like, I also get very, because I knew what it was like.
38:19I was in those unemployment lines.
38:21So when you're kind of demanding millions of dollars.
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