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00:05Hi, I'm Tatiana Siegel, and thank you for joining us for The Hollywood Reporter Presents
00:11exclusive Q&A with Brian Fogel, the writer, director, and producer of The Dissident.
00:17Let's go ahead and start, Brian. Back in October 2018, when the news about Jamal Khashoggi's death
00:26began to hit the airwaves, what was your first reaction? The story broke, I think, for the first
00:33time on October 3rd, and then over those next couple of weeks, I think myself and the rest of
00:42the world that was paying attention to this story were shocked, riveted, appalled,
00:51and couldn't believe the audacity of this crime. And what struck me was, and thankfully to the
01:03Washington Post, who Jamal was writing for, that in his murder, he was no longer a Saudi journalist,
01:11he was a Washington Post journalist. And because it was published that he was a Washington Post
01:17journalist, I think the world really took notice of this crime, or I think otherwise,
01:23under other circumstances, this could have kind of come and gone, and it was a Saudi journalist who
01:28disappeared in the Saudi consulate, and okay, no big deal. But a Washington Post journalist was a
01:35whole other story. And so, as this caught my attention, I had not heard, known who Jamal Khashoggi was,
01:46prior to his disappearance. But it immediately, you know, triggered this light bulb moment in my head
01:55of going, whoa, journalists killed in the consulate, starting to read these stories about Muhammad bin
02:01Salman, who is presenting himself in the West as this great reformer. But, you know, there's all sorts
02:09of information and stories coming forward that this guy is cracking down on dissidents, is cracking down on
02:14anybody who has an opinion different from him, but he's locking up people, that he's jailing women for
02:22advocating for human rights, and the list goes on and on. And so, I quickly started reading his writings
02:29in the Washington Post. And here's stories coming forward that Jamal was an extremist, that he's a
02:36terrorist, that he's an ISIS sympathizer, that he was friends of bin Laden. I mean, you name it.
02:42And even the Trump administration is putting these stories forward of like, hey, you know, maybe the
02:47guy had it coming to him. And I start reading his Post articles, and I go, wait, this guy was
02:54educated
02:55in the West. He went to Ohio State University. He spoke fluent and perfect English. He had spent his
03:01life traveling between London and Washington, basically advocating as a journalist lobbyist on
03:07behalf of Saudi Arabia. And here he's writing pragmatically as a moderate, saying, I love my
03:15country. I have no problem with the monarchy. But under MBS, things are becoming unbearable.
03:24And as I start reading his writings, I also hire a couple of researchers who speak Arabic. And I said,
03:31look, give me everything that Jamal has wrote in Arabic, start looking at his archival in his
03:37interview, and give me the assessment. And my team comes back to me, you know, you know, days later
03:45and go, this was a good guy. This was a good guy. And, and as Saudi Arabia finally admits that
03:56he had,
03:57in fact, died inside that consulate. I had decided that I thought that this would be the next project,
04:05the next film that I would want to make. And the question became is, could I get the access?
04:11Could I craft something that was not a CNN story or as reported, you know, on the BBC or the
04:19New York
04:20Times? And that hinged on three things for me. One was Jamal's fiancee, Hatija Jenga's. And, you know,
04:30and I saw her as the emotional connection, the emotional through line to, to the story of how to
04:37make an audience care and fall in love with Jamal, because Jamal wasn't going to be able to speak for
04:43himself. Omar Abdulaziz, the Saudi dissident living in self-exile in Montreal. And as the story of
04:51Jamal's disappearance is, you know, prevalent in the media and the press, New York Times publishes a
04:57story about Omar, this 27-year-old Saudi dissident living in Montreal, whose phone had been hacked
05:06with Pegasus, Israeli cyber hacking software, stating that because of his phone's hack and that
05:14they had hacked Jamal also, that the project that they had been working on, he felt led to the
05:23Saudis' decision to murder him. And so again, I said, well, would Omar participate? Would he provide
05:29me with this evidence, with his story? Because he's the protagonist. And through Omar, he's the young
05:35freedom fighter. He's the young dissident, the young voice, the youth of Saudi Arabia, basically
05:41fighting for change. And lastly was the Turkish government, which was without the participation of
05:49the Turks, I said, well, you know, what, how am I going to present something that is truly different
05:59and kind of the untold story behind Jamal's murder. And all of these three, you know, main participants
06:09lined up over the next few months in, you know, just a continual building of trust of countless
06:19meetings, spending five weeks in Istanbul, three weeks in Montreal. And then in 2019, I spent seven
06:27months in Istanbul, three months in Montreal, traveled all over the world with Atesha. And
06:34and that was kind of how the film came together.
06:41Now, in terms of all the meetings you were taking to get participation, were you also having
06:48any challenges with, or just taking a lot of meetings to get financing for this kind of project?
06:54I was very fortunate. I went to Washington, I'd reached out literally on the day that the Saudis
07:03had admitted to murdering Jamal, it was October 16. And I got in touch with Karen Atiyah, who was
07:08Jamal's editor at the Washington Post. And I said, Hey, I'm interested to come and meet with you. Would
07:16you guys take a meeting with me? And she said, she checked with Marty Baron and Fred Ryan. And
07:22they said, Yeah, come come to Washington, be happy to talk with you. And so I flew to Washington,
07:30this was now like October 22. And I sat with everyone at the Post who knew Jamal had worked
07:36with Jamal, who were friends with Jamal. And I said, you know, I think I want to do this with
07:44you
07:44participate. And they said, Look, however, we can help. And they started providing me archival,
07:51they started providing me and I started shooting interviews with them. And it was now middle of
07:59November. And I had started discussions with Atiyah, and I was about to go to Istanbul. And
08:05I'm introduced to Thor Halverson, who's the president of the Human Rights Foundation. And I hadn't known
08:12Thor. I had heard of the Human Rights Foundation, of course. And Thor and I meet and he goes,
08:18you know, we host the Oslo Freedom Forms every year in Oslo in May. Jamal attended our last Freedom
08:25Form. With Iyad al-Baghdadi, we've been in communication with Omar Abdulaziz. We've been
08:32following this story. This is something that, you know, the foundation and the work that we do is
08:37very, very, you know, important to us. You know, do you need me to make a connection to Omar for
08:45you?
08:45And I said, Yeah, absolutely. And he says, And I'll connect you to Iyad al-Baghdadi. He was Jamal's
08:52friend. I said, That would be amazing. And I told Thor at the time, I said, Look, I don't know
08:58if I'm
08:58going to be able to get this access. I don't know. But if I do, are you guys interested in
09:05being
09:05involved? And he said, Look, if you get the access, it would be our honor to finance this project in
09:14full for you. You let us know what you need. And we want to do this. And so it was
09:22incredible. I never
09:24had to go out and seek backers. Thor and the Human Rights Foundation, basically from
09:33that first meeting of me saying I wanted to do this. And then coming back to them, you know,
09:41two and a half, three months later with, Okay, Hatice is going to participate. Omar is going to
09:46participate. Washington Post is participating. The Turkish are providing interviews and evidence.
09:52And they said, Okay, we're, we're, we're in. So, you know, very, very grateful to them.
10:04Take me back to the Sundance premiere. You have Hillary Clinton and Alec Baldwin there,
10:10a huge response. Did you think here comes a bidding war, kind of like what happened with your Oscar
10:16winner, Icarus? Well, Reed Hastings was there too, as was the head of Apple, Amazon, they were all there.
10:26All clapping in the, you know, standing, standing ovations, tears, everybody's eyes is
10:33Hatice takes the stage and, and then Todd McCarthy at the time who was writing for the, for the Hollywood
10:40Reporter, published the most incredible review of the film. I was really taken back by it.
10:52And not a single one of these major streamers stepped forward.
10:57Um, it was, it was pretty, uh, uh, really kind of, uh, took me back here. Icarus was the first,
11:08um, you know, uh, feature Academy award for, for Netflix. Um, I've been told quietly that the film
11:16has had somewhere in the neighborhood of 700 million views to not have these companies, uh, step forward to,
11:24uh, try to acquire the film. And when I say, uh, I mean, it was not only what it was
11:30all of them
11:31and there was not a single penny offered. It was never about money. Um, the human rights foundation
11:39wasn't interested in money. And yet there were documentaries sold at that festival for $12 million
11:45last year. There was never, it was never about how much is the film going to sell for? It was
11:51just
11:52purely who is our right partner. And not a single one of those, uh, not a single, uh, global streamer
11:58stepped up. Um, six months later, uh, Briarcliff Entertainment and Tom Mortenberg, who did Crash,
12:06who did Fahrenheit 9-11, who did Spotlight, um, came forward. We, you know, we, we were kind of
12:13holding off a little bit, uh, and he said, look, I, I want to do this. And, um, and the
12:19film is now,
12:20uh, on VOD. And, you know, the, the good news is that it's hit as high as number three on
12:26iTunes.
12:27Um, and, uh, what we're hearing so far is that it's been doing great, um, uh, which is, you know,
12:37outstanding for a documentary on, on PVOD. But, you know, had, had I had my choice, um, this film
12:47would have been available essentially, you know, for free to anyone who had a subscription to one of
12:53these streamers. Um, and instead the film is, you know, released here in the United States and you
12:59can rent it and then it'll, and then we're piecing together all the other rest of the world and during
13:05COVID. Um, for me as a, as a filmmaker, that's, that's completely secondary, but, you know, I made
13:14the film for Hatisha Cengiz. I made the film for Omar Abdulaziz. I mean, Omar's brothers still sit
13:20in a jail in Saudi Arabia, uncharged two and a half years in, um, his 23 friends still sit in
13:28a
13:28jail, uncharged, uh, two and a half years in simply because they hacked his phone and he was
13:34in communications with these people. Um, Lujan al-Hatul, uh, the Saudi woman's human rights
13:41activist was just sentenced to another six years in prison on top of the three that she already
13:46served. And her crime is for advocating that women in Saudi Arabia should be able to leave their homes
13:52without the permission of an 18 year old male guardian. And so these horrendous human rights
13:59abuses are happening in this country. And yet these global businesses are unwilling to, to take any stand
14:11despite what I believe would be their subscribers' global appetite to this content. And so what we see is that
14:19money, shareholder accountability, their ability to take investment from this region, to grow, you know, in this
14:28region, add subscribers, et cetera, uh, take precedent, um, over human rights violations. And, you know, uh, a year and
14:37a
14:37half ago, uh, Netflix pulled Hassan Minaj's episode, um, a Patriot Act. Um, and, and it was the episode
14:46that he criticized Mohammed bin Salman about the murder of Khashoggi. And the statement released from
14:51them was, uh, we are not a truth to power company. We are an entertainment company. Um, and let me
14:58just
14:58interrupt here. Cause I am, I'm dying to hear your answer. Why do you think, um, Netflix in, I want
15:06to say
15:06three, four years ago, bought at Sundance, Joshua versus the superpower, which at the time I thought,
15:14whoa, like that's, that's pretty, you know, ballsy move given that China is going to hate this movie.
15:20Netflix isn't in China yet. Has there been an erosion over the last few years where it's like,
15:28Ooh, any potential business we cannot alienate? Absolutely. I mean, it's, and it's not,
15:34it's not just Netflix. It's all of them. We are in a, an age where all of us in the
15:41creative
15:41community, um, at one hand, we, it's incredible because content can be distributed truly globally,
15:48have the eyeballs of 200 million subscribers and become, you know, a global juggernaut at the click
15:56of a button. Um, and obviously every director and star is willing to work with, with the major
16:02streamers as am I, I mean, I don't get me wrong. I love Netflix. I, I love Amazon. I love
16:08HBO. I love
16:09all these companies. And I, and I know that I will continue to do projects with them, but when it
16:15comes to, um, taking the stand, uh, uh, anything that is political or anything that is human rights
16:23oriented, what we are seeing, um, is that this global marketplace is leading to an environment of
16:29fear and the Netflix of three years ago, uh, that took Icarus, um, and gave it a global voice,
16:39um, which created incredible change. I mean, this was a decades long scandal that affected all of
16:46sport, all of Olympic history. And because of Netflix's bravery, because of them willing to take
16:52this on, um, you know, Russia was banned from the Olympics. Uh, they're facing another two-year ban.
17:00Um, there has been true accountability, uh, for this scandal. Um, and Netflix was so bold in their
17:08support of it. Um, that is not the Netflix of today. The Netflix of today is maxed out in the
17:14United
17:15States for subscribers and they are going, how do we build subscribers internationally? And so that means
17:22we're not going to upset Saudi Arabia. We're not going to upset the Emiratis. We're not going to
17:26upset Egypt. Well, we're not going to upset India or Pakistan or anywhere else in the world where they
17:31want to grow in China included. And, um. It's have a chilling effect on filmmakers. Like you did it,
17:40you made the movie, but there's some Brian Fogle out there, or maybe not quite Brian Fogle, but like
17:45somebody out there who's like, I'm not touching this subject because I'll never get distribution.
17:52And I think that that is, you know, the, the bigger question that I think, um, filmmakers like
17:59myself, um, are now facing. And I don't know what the answer is. Um, what, what I do know is,
18:10so this is, um, so Hatija Jenga is, uh, I just want to read you something because she just sent
18:18this to
18:18me, uh, two days ago. She goes, hi, dear Brian. Uh, read all the reviews and all of them are
18:26very
18:27encouraging. They seem to like the film and they seem to have got a great idea about it. The main
18:33three points they mentioned is that you're brave, that Omar struggles, and that I'm a fighter for
18:41human rights. The idea reached all. I'm glad. I'm proud of you every day. You made history. You did an
18:50incredible job. Believe me. All is well for now. I'm getting better every day. I hope you are too.
18:59This trauma that I went through created a new Hatija, I think. I understand that every day I'm
19:05not the same person as I was two years before. I got a lot and I learned a lot. And
19:13I made some
19:14good friends. The most important one is you and your team, Thor and Jake. Jake is my cinematographer.
19:22Agnes Calamard and other people like Nico and Rodney. Those have supported her through human rights
19:28organizations. My life changed and my opinion also changed and my daily life also changed.
19:36The one thing that did not change, it's my love and my heart. It's still full of love for humanity
19:42and love for Jamal's soul. I believe if we change life, it will be with love and with love for
19:49our values.
19:51And, you know, to get a message like that from her two and a half years, two years, three months
19:58after Jamal's murder makes it all worthwhile. And I'm hoping that as people come to see the film,
20:08that there can be change that comes. Because if we can't rely on these corporations or streamers or
20:15governments, what we do know is that change comes from the individual, just like the power of the
20:21BLM movement. I mean, that grew from Twitter. The Arab Spring started on Twitter. Me Too started on
20:29Twitter. And so, you know, I'm very optimistic and just grateful that the film is making its way out
20:39into the world and that hope that more and more people who will see it will learn Jamal's story
20:44and hopefully stand up for human rights abuses in Saudi Arabia and other countries as well. Because
20:52I think if we're able to hold these businesses and corporations accountable to not do business
21:00with a country that is violating human rights like this, that there can bring about change.
21:06You know, and that's what I'm really optimistic about.
21:09And is that the ultimate goal to sort of dissuade corporations from doing business
21:16with Saudi Arabia?
21:19Well, I mean, Netflix just announced an eight picture deal with Saudi Arabia. How? How? Why?
21:31And also barely reported. I mean, it's like, doesn't seem like it's even
21:37a scandal or even a mini scandal.
21:40Why? The Russo brothers just took $50 million from Saudi Arabia. Why? Do you not care that 800
21:49people were beheaded in that country last year for speaking truth to power, for having the gumption
21:57to say that women should have rights in that country or that they might disagree with the crown
22:02prince? Is all that matters your shareholder price? Is all that matters your subscriber growth?
22:12I mean, if that's the planet that we're living in, you know, we just went through this with four
22:18years of an administration that sought everything in its ability to let Mohammed bin Salman go for this
22:26crime. Trump said, I saved his ass. He's trying to push through $500 million with the weapon sales as
22:32he leaves office. He's submitted to the Justice Department seeking immunity for Mohammed bin Salman,
22:41you know, a grant by the Justice Department that the United States cannot prosecute him.
22:47You go, why? I mean, there's got to be more than money, you know? And we as a planet,
22:55have to start valuing lives and people that want to speak truth to power, people who want better
23:03lives for people in their country above corporate profits. And, you know, I think we're on a slippery
23:11slope right now. And so when you say, like, what is justice for Jamal? Justice for Jamal, for me,
23:18is not about, oh, Mohammed bin Salman is going to stand trial in this country. That's not realistic.
23:24But what is realistic is that there can be sanctions, that Congress under Biden can stop
23:34selling arms to the kingdom. The world takes its direction still from the United States and
23:39in that regard. And that at a grassroots level, that people can call on their congressmen and their
23:46senators to not do business with the kingdom. And they can call on these companies and not just the
23:53media companies. It's, you know, the list goes on and on and on and on and on to go, hey,
23:59you know,
24:00until there's reform and change in that country, until these thousands of Saudi political
24:06activists or Lujan al-Hatul or Omar's brothers or friends are freed from jails and allowed to have
24:15a freedom of opinion, that maybe we need to reassess our business relationship with you.
24:20And I think that's where change will come. And that's my hope as people watch the film
24:26and hopefully are, you know, taken by the cinematic quality of the film and that we crafted it as a
24:33thriller intentionally to hopefully bring audiences kind of on the edge of their seat. And hopefully in
24:40doing that, there's an emotional response. And then that emotional response, you can care for
24:46Hatija Jenghis, his fiancee, like I care for her. You can have compassion for Omar Abdulaziz,
24:51like I have compassion for Omar. And when you pick up the newspaper, and you read about this stuff,
24:57you're a little bit better educated. And also feel that maybe there's something that you can do about
25:04it. Because I think we all can.
25:08Well, that is a great place to end this conversation. Thank you so much, Brian.
25:14And thank you for joining the Hollywood Reporter Presents screening series.
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