- 5 hours ago
Oscar-nominated screenwriters Taika Waititi ('Jojo Rabbit,' also nominated as a producer) and Anthony McCarten ('The Two Popes') join Lorene Scafaria, Kasi Lemmons, Destin Cretton and Charles Randolph for the full Writer Roundtable.
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00:09Hi, I'm Stephen Galloway, and welcome to Close Up with the Hollywood Reporter writers.
00:14I'd like to welcome Lorena Scafaria, Taika Waititi, Casey Lemons, Destin Cretton, Charles
00:23Randolph, and Anthony McCartan. Welcome. I want to plunge you in the deep end and start
00:29with Martin Scorsese said some of the movies now being made, particularly the superhero
00:34movies, a theme park rise, they're not cinema. Agree or disagree? Agree. He's absolutely right,
00:45and I've always said this. Disagree. I know how much work goes into the story, breaking
00:54stories for those films, and how much work goes into shooting and post-production, and
01:01it's all, basically it's all based on story for that studio. And at the end of the day,
01:09whatever's in that rectangle, if it's affecting people emotionally, or it doesn't matter if
01:13it's too colourful, I guess it's too colourful for him. But yeah, all the costumes might not
01:17look Italian enough. I don't know. I can only imagine he's actually worried about the dominance
01:26of that particular type of film. And there is an exaggerated proportion of that type of film
01:32dominating the multiplexes, and that's just a result of the economics of it. They're just making a lot
01:40of money, and the audiences seem to be bottomless for these movies. And while the audience remains for
01:46these movies, they will continue to be dominant until something else is put out there.
01:53Bohemian Rhapsody was a movie I was involved with. People didn't expect that kind of Marvel-level
02:00box office as a result of that. But the good news is that now that's made a case for itself,
02:05and I can see that there's going to be a bit of a deluge of that type of movie.
02:09So I think the challenge starts with us, in a way, is that we need to come up with stories
02:15that
02:15make a case, an economic case, to say there's a massive audience for this. And then the people
02:20who run the multiplexes, the distributors, will be only too happy to put them on there.
02:25But Bohemian Rhapsody was an exception. I mean, you've done Theory of Everything.
02:29You've done Darkest Hour, which were hits, but they weren't $700 or $800 million hits.
02:33So how do you create character-driven films that reach a big audience? Can you?
02:40I think so. I think it's often a combination of the actor and the character that bring excitement
02:50to an audience. So that's what I think Iron Man did. It was Robert Downey Jr. as Iron Man. And
02:58I think that was the perfect blend of star power and a character. And so I think that's what people
03:07might turn out for more now. Is that?
03:11You know, comic books and graphic novels were always kind of laughed at in the past as not
03:15being real art or not being real stories. And it's just simply not true. And with superheroes,
03:21it's just new mythology. So I'm sure that when people came up with stories about Zeus or about
03:29different gods or Hercules thousands of years ago, people were like, oh, this is not real.
03:35This is not a real story. This is bullshit. This guy did all this stuff. But it's actually just
03:41taking those similar things. And eventually, Iron Man will enter into the, I think, the realm of
03:48mythology. And people will say, oh, yeah. And it's just stories. It's just all of it at the end of
03:53the day
03:53for me is stories that are either teaching you lessons or helping us experience the human condition
04:00in different ways. His critique is really about originality, right, at the end of the day.
04:06And, you know, once you have a dedicated group of shared experience amongst these audiences,
04:13you can start to play with that. And maybe we're not there yet. I mean, he's right to the degree
04:18that
04:18a lot of it is not very interesting. Yeah, absolutely.
04:20And, you know, in the aggregate, perhaps, you know, if you were to do the math, it's in his favor.
04:27Are you finding it harder to get more character-driven, difficult films like Just Mercy off the ground?
04:33I feel like we really lucked out with where Just Mercy landed. We had executives at Warner Brothers
04:40who were huge champions of telling the story from a character's POV that you typically don't see
04:48on screen very much. And they honestly have treated it like they treat their superhero movies. When we
04:54were sitting in our marketing meeting, it was a huge meeting. It was a big campaign of really excited
05:03people to, because to them right now, it actually is something different for the studio to do.
05:09So, you know, it was inspiring to see that much passion for a movie like this.
05:14Are there any subjects that you as writers would not touch?
05:17As opposed to, say, 10 years ago or 15 years ago?
05:20Yeah, yeah, for sure.
05:21What?
05:21You know, the model of appropriation for a screenwriter is complicated, right? Because on one hand,
05:27you want to have a rich variety of characters in your films. On the other hand, if you're wholly
05:31embodying a subject that is alien to your culture and you feel like there are other people who can do
05:36it better than you can, there are things that I would not do today that I would have done 10
05:41years ago.
05:41Yeah, give us an example.
05:44There's an adaptation of a book about three African-American kids in New York who kidnap a
05:50white state attorney that I wrote about a decade ago. It's one of my favorite scripts. It will never
05:57get made, probably shouldn't get made, because it is just not, it relies too much on me being in a
06:04world that I don't fully understand, I think, at the end of the day, and no amount of research would
06:09probably get me there. One thing that we have to understand is that the language of the dominant
06:14culture is one that we all speak, but there are specific cultures that we don't, you don't have
06:20to be versed in those languages, so you have to do the work to, you know, figure out what that
06:25is,
06:25and that takes, I mean, I've seen very good work outside of culture, obviously. I think if the
06:30empathy is there and the investigation, and it's, you know, it's done sincerely, and you have to
06:37have the depth of really understanding, and that means digging in, digging into the research, you
06:42know. Of course, of course, but you have to be, you have to really go the whole distance, you know.
06:49You can't toe dip, you know, so that's, I think, when you, when you toe dip, I can feel it,
06:54you know,
06:55and, and when there's deep investigation, deep empathy, and, and really digging into the story
07:00and the characters, then, then no, you, it's, you know, it's just a really good movie.
07:04But we are in a particular era where there's great sensitivity to that. Is there, by contrast,
07:12a film that you would have loved to write that somebody hasn't let you do, because they feel
07:17you're not right for it? Well, I'm on the, on the threshold of doing something which is in the,
07:23can be accused, or may be accused of appropriation, which is writing a, a black female character,
07:31and. Real life or not? Real life, yeah. Who is the character? I'd rather not say, but. Who is the
07:37character? Well, you're free to ask, and freedom is the operative word here. I think fiction means
07:45freedom, and I think we have to fight for that, and I'm sorry, God bless you for, you know,
07:49standing up for the fact that writers must be free to travel. We, we, we have to have passports
07:54into every territory. If we had ever pigeonholed ourselves and say, I can only write about being
08:00a middle-aged white man, we're all doing it. Shakespeare would never have written about
08:03anything outside of England. We would have never had Merchant of Venice. He's not a merchant,
08:07never went to Venice, you know, so, you know, we, we have to fight for it, and against some
08:12strong headwinds, because we are, get, there is opposition to writers who, who chance their
08:18arm imaginatively journey into a world they don't know, but want to know, and are knocked
08:23back by people who are saying, you're not of, of that culture, get back in your box, and
08:28I think we really have to fight, you know. And I want to, don't you agree, you can't, you can't
08:32quite be, like, just a tourist, though, you know what I mean? You have to really do some
08:37immersive work. I can wholeheartedly agree with you, yeah, you can't flippantly go in
08:41and, and do something, you know, you have to do deep research and get it right, but isn't
08:46that true for every character you do? It is, but I mean, some are, are more challenging
08:51than others. I mean, I try and really, um, do investigative, that investigative work, but
08:56I mean, I do think that so many, so much great work has been written by so many people,
09:02I mean, as a writer, you should be able to be, to explore humanity, you know, and, uh,
09:08Borderless, yeah, yeah. But when you do, I want to go back to what you said, which is,
09:11you know, fiction is freedom. What are the limits of freedom? Everybody on this table has written
09:16a script involving real people. Uh, what are your responsibilities to the truth? Uh, Tiger,
09:25how much is it okay to fictionalize Hitler? That version of Hitler that I wrote shares nothing
09:29with the, the real guy other than that moustache, really. He is conjured from the, the mind of a
09:36ten-year-old, so you can only know what a ten-year-old knows, and so there's no, and I
09:40had no real
09:41interest in writing an, uh, an authentic portrayal or, you know, or when I played him, um, had no
09:47interest in actually putting in the effort or putting in the research because I just didn't
09:52think he deserved it. And, um, I don't want to, I just, yeah, I don't want to give him the
09:56satisfaction of me actually having to read about him and, like, study his nuances and his, you know,
10:01mannerisms. I was like, screw this guy, I'm not going to do that. Um, so I...
10:05Can we put your feet to the fire a little bit on that one? Yeah, thank you.
10:08Because it is Hitler. I mean, we identify him as Hitler, and would you not agree that a lot
10:14of the jokes and power of the jokes derive from the fact that you're, this voice in the air
10:18of this boy is Hitler, and a lot of humour comes from the fact that the ultimate...
10:24Yeah, yeah, absolutely, but there's only one moment when he, when I'd use some of one of
10:29his speeches from, from one of his rallies, and, um, there's a moment when he gets very
10:34serious, and it's really Jojo's conscience kind of trying, the sort of dark side of his
10:39conscience trying desperately to hold on to him, and, um, everything else I tried to write
10:43him as, you know, there's versions of myself in there, and, you know, and how I,
10:48used to think when I was a kid, and how I, you know, how children perceive the world,
10:52all of that kind of is filtered through that character, and he is just essentially, yes,
10:58it's funny because it's like, it's those ideas and those things being said coming out of the
11:02mouth of this, you know, this tyrant.
11:05Sheesh, that was intense.
11:07What am I going to do?
11:08Honestly, no idea. I mean, there could be more of them, hundreds of them living in your walls.
11:15How did she get control like that?
11:17She must have used her powers.
11:19Mind control.
11:20Oh, typical.
11:22Oh, you see how fast she moved?
11:23Yes.
11:24Oh, like a little female Jewish Jesse Owens.
11:27And now she's got your fancy knife.
11:28Oh, my knife!
11:29Yeah, like a little female Jewish Jesse Owens, Jack the Ripper.
11:34You're definitely in a pickle, my friend.
11:36How to do, how to do.
11:38Oh!
11:39Got it!
11:39I've negotiated!
11:41And blame Winston Churchill.
11:42But aren't you worried that in truly fictionalizing him and turning him into a buffoon,
11:46you may be diminishing the threat?
11:49No, I'm not worried at all.
11:50But that's what satire does.
11:52You invert.
11:53So you make someone who's unserious, serious.
11:55You make the serious unserious.
11:57And that's how you skewer power.
11:58That's the nature of satire.
12:00I think there's also something else.
12:02Because it's the point of view of a child, you're saying,
12:05I mean, what's scary to me is that a child's view is cartoonish.
12:10You know what I mean?
12:10And there's this cartoon kind of character friend that's this extremely dangerous person,
12:15but, you know, in the mind of this child.
12:18And it really makes you understand indoctrination of children in a way.
12:21You know, and I appreciate it on that level.
12:24How much did you feel that you had to stick to the real characters in Hustlers?
12:29I didn't get a chance to meet the real women ahead of time,
12:32which was really hard for me because creatively I would have loved to have heard every detail.
12:38I think the truth is stranger than fiction, but I had the article to work from.
12:43And so I felt a responsibility to what really happened and the crimes themselves.
12:48I didn't want to water them down, but I felt a little bit of freedom when it came to the
12:53characters
12:53because we're trying to just tell a story, tell the movie version of it.
12:58So the two characters that they form a friendship and it's kind of a love story between the two of
13:04them.
13:04And in reality, they were more like business partners.
13:07So I had to add a lot to the characters and the relationship.
13:12I just want my daughter to be able to do whatever she wants, you know?
13:15Go to whatever school she wants or not.
13:19If that's what she wants.
13:22I swear I'd do anything for this kid.
13:25Motherhood is a mental illness.
13:29Well, I would explain my mother.
13:34Hmm.
13:42Did you go into strip clubs and do research?
13:45Sure, yeah.
13:45What surprised you about that world?
13:46You know, there's no job security for these women.
13:48They're not employees of these clubs.
13:50They pay house fees.
13:51They tip everybody out.
13:53So the difference between a good night and a bad night is a lot.
13:56It's how much you go home with.
13:58It's not necessarily did you have a great interaction with someone or a bad interaction.
14:02I mean, certainly there's a lot to deal with in that way.
14:05But, you know, they work in pairs and in teams.
14:08It's much more lucrative.
14:09Did you like them?
14:10Yeah, I did like them.
14:12And I heard so many different experiences.
14:15I think that's the beautiful part of it is that you can talk to so many different women
14:20who are having the time of their lives.
14:23This job provides incredible freedom.
14:25They work for a month.
14:26They go take their band on the road.
14:27And other girls who, you know, escaped a bad relationship.
14:32And, you know, for some people it's transitional, you know, and for other people it's where they are.
14:37And so it was incredibly enlightening to speak to them.
14:40I love the class elements and your ability to capture so many of those things.
14:45Was that a matter of hanging out with them?
14:47Or had you had some interaction with people from that part of the boroughs in Long Island before?
14:55Yeah, I mean, I grew up in New Jersey, so I felt like I grew up with these guys.
14:59I grew up with these girls.
15:00I worked in a boiler room when I was like 18, just like doing secretarial work.
15:06But it was really just off, off Wall Street, northern New Jersey, a room full of phones that guys are
15:13selling bad stocks to old people.
15:15And my mom worked there for a time.
15:17A guy said he was going to hit her in the head with a baseball bat.
15:20And the bosses said, bottom line, can you keep working with him?
15:23Because he's bringing in the money and you're just typing stuff into a computer.
15:27So, yeah, it was remarkable.
15:29But there was another guy who was on a headset for six months talking to nobody.
15:33He was losing his mind.
15:34Oh, wow.
15:35Wow.
15:35So it was really like this.
15:37I want to see that.
15:38I can identify.
15:39Exactly.
15:40What's the worst jobs you've all had to do along the way?
15:43Because most writers don't really make it until they're, you know, certainly in their 30s.
15:47Have you all done tough jobs before?
15:50So many jobs.
15:51What?
15:52I, in Dallas, Fort Worth, Texas, worked in the Pepsi plant, shoveling saccharine into the syrup formula.
16:00And even three weeks after I quit that job, I could pull a piece of hair.
16:04Luxury.
16:04Did you ever drink Pepsi?
16:05Yeah.
16:06So, sugar and the Pepsi.
16:07I worked on the Night Sword at UPS, which is a job where you put the packages in the trucks
16:12in order so the drivers can do that from one to six in the morning.
16:17You lose a little bit of weight because you're running for five hours.
16:20Who else?
16:21I worked in a coal yard, bagging coal, 80-kilogram bags, and then getting them into trucks and stuff.
16:28Dirty job.
16:29Sheesh.
16:29It was all right.
16:30Can't really beat that.
16:31How about you?
16:34I shot wedding videos.
16:36That's how I paid the bills for a long time.
16:38That's pretty clean color.
16:40Oh, I don't know.
16:41That sounds...
16:42Did anybody ever fire you from a wedding?
16:44No, it was one of the most rewarding creative jobs I've ever had.
16:49I also worked at a group home for teenagers, which at the time I didn't realize was going to be
16:57the inspiration for my first feature.
17:00But I worked there as a counselor for two years.
17:05Was that difficult?
17:05It was extremely difficult, yeah.
17:08I didn't realize how sheltered I was as a child growing up in Hawaii until I took that gig.
17:17It was very eye-opening to kind of the ugliness in the world.
17:24But simultaneously, it also opened my eyes to the beauty of humans and their ability to find life and laughter
17:33in the darkest places.
17:34In what way did it open your eyes to the ugliness?
17:37What particularly?
17:39I mean, you look at every...
17:41You're on a floor with 20 kids and every single one of them are struggling because of the effects of
17:48some type of abuse or neglect from parents or lack of parents.
17:52And it was very eye-opening for dealing with that every single day.
18:02What about you, Casey?
18:04I would have to go with naked life modeling.
18:07That's my one.
18:09Winner.
18:15Two Popes.
18:17How much was fictionalized and how much do you feel you were justified if you did fictionalize it?
18:22So it's a really tough, complex question because you get to the heart of how much license should you permit
18:31yourself when you're doing anything based on a real story.
18:33And I've taken various takes on this over the last few years.
18:38I've done cradle to grave stuff, which is very, very, very faithful to historical fact.
18:43And in this case, it's probably the most adventurous use of artistic license that I've had.
18:48But I would still put my hand into that fire and say that I'm still...
18:53This is more than perhaps any of the others in the service of the truth.
18:57And that it's not necessarily literally true that they had these conversations.
19:02We don't know what they said to each other.
19:04I know they met three times.
19:06And...
19:06They only met three times?
19:08They've only met three times.
19:09That's extraordinary for two Popes.
19:10Yeah.
19:11It's imaginatively speculating on what transpires between two people.
19:16We have known details, but in between those gaps, we have to infuse with our own...
19:21We surmise.
19:22We try and be as emotionally authentic as we can within the parameters of the people we're dealing with.
19:27Would you say grace, Holy Father?
19:28Yes.
19:30Yes.
19:36Thank you, Lord, for this food that we enjoy here, in this place outside of time.
19:42You see, Lord, your church, your flock, is under attack and crisis.
19:47God grant us the wisdom and the strength to oppose the hypocrisy to this figure, sir.
19:54St. Francis, intercede for us as we seek to repair the church.
20:00Would you like to add something?
20:02Amen.
20:04Amen.
20:04It's good.
20:05At its heart, the two Popes is a story of a progressive and a conservative.
20:09And I hope it speaks to the broader conversation in society at the moment where we have these two camps.
20:14We're not quite sure which will ensure our future's better than the other.
20:18And there's so much anger passing back and forth that they're being polarised and driven further apart.
20:23The middle seems to have collapsed.
20:25To paraphrase Yates, the centre is not held.
20:29And this project was about trying to get these two positions into dialogue with each other in a debate.
20:34And they're highly combative at the beginning, but they find peace with each other.
20:38And it's embedded in the truth.
20:41There's a lot of research that went into what the stated positions were.
20:45My area of confection, if you like, was that I put those two positions into dialogue with each other and
20:51built a dialectic around that.
20:53It's such an interesting phrase, in the service of the truth.
20:55When you're doing historical representation, something that is fiction and yet historical, you have to invent conversations.
21:04You know these two people are friends.
21:06We know Harriet Tubman went to this place and met with these people.
21:11But I came to feel that I was in conversation with her.
21:15So the questions that I had to ask, I asked in writing the script and in doing the movie.
21:21When I had a question, I would ask it.
21:22And I believed that I had the answer.
21:24What do you mean you would ask it?
21:25I would ask her directly.
21:27Harriet, how do you feel about this?
21:29Are we cool?
21:31Am I going too far?
21:32Did this happen?
21:33How did it happen?
21:34And I would wait until I felt that I was getting the answer.
21:38I have one question, which is, she's quoted as her last line being, I go to prepare a place for
21:45you.
21:46And I thought that that is one of the most beautiful, you know, I just wonder.
21:51You know, that was the one I didn't quite have the answer.
21:55Did you actually say that?
21:56Were those actually your last words?
21:57I go to prepare a place for you.
21:59I mean, my God woman.
22:00You know, that's beautiful.
22:01I put my attention on trying to hear God's voice more clearly.
22:05Do you know what would happen if you got caught?
22:07They would torture you until you pointed them right to this office.
22:10You got lucky, Harriet.
22:13Now there's nothing more you can do.
22:15Don't you tell me what I can't do.
22:18I made it this for all my own.
22:20God was watching, but my feet was my own.
22:23Running, bleeding, climbing, nearly drowned.
22:26Nothing to eat for days and days, man.
22:27I made it.
22:30So don't you tell me what I can't do.
22:31I did seven months of pure research on Harriet and the Underground Railroad.
22:36But, you know, in even the best scholarly books, you'll have something that will say, she made her way to
22:43Philadelphia.
22:43It's like, okay.
22:46That's awful.
22:47You know, so you have to build things out and build things in to make it dramatic, of course.
22:55But also in the service of the truth, which is I know she had this position.
22:59I know this person was her friend.
23:01You know, I know he worried about her, William Still, you know, because I can tell that from letters.
23:06But I don't know what their conversations were.
23:10You've been knocked a bit for not casting an American, an African-American woman in the lead, which is played
23:16by Cynthia Erivo.
23:17Mm-hmm.
23:17And very beautifully.
23:19How do you feel about that?
23:20And did you think about it when you cast the part?
23:22She was on the movie before me.
23:23Oh.
23:25I didn't know that there would be, you know, conversation about it.
23:28About Cynthia, you just don't get any better.
23:31She was prepared in every way you could possibly be prepared to play this role.
23:35She was prepared physically, emotionally, spiritually to play Harriet Tubman.
23:39And she was wonderful.
23:40I felt so excited about being an African-American woman being able to tell the story of Harriet Tubman.
23:48You know, so I felt that I was burying the culture in many ways.
23:51And two women producers, one of whom is African-American, two writers, both African-American, director, African-American woman, African
24:00-American costume designer, African-American production designer, African-American composer, African-American hair and makeup.
24:07And I felt that we were burying the culture of the Harriet Tubman story beautifully.
24:13Charles, you dealt with quite a few real life people.
24:15Indeed.
24:16In Bombshell.
24:17Yeah.
24:17Did you ever get to meet anything?
24:19Did you meet Roger Ailes?
24:20And if you didn't, what would you have wanted to ask him?
24:22Did not meet Roger.
24:24He died about when I was about halfway through.
24:26I did meet quite a few of the others, 12 of whom probably or 13 of whom have NDAs.
24:31So we can't really talk about who they were.
24:33I guess I would say that in the case of Roger, I felt like the narrative that the women had
24:40told about him was pretty strong.
24:42And it had a fascinating consistency throughout it, particularly trying to arrive at his particular kinks.
24:49You know, his sexual pathology may be too strong a word, but certainly his sexual love map.
24:53We like sexual pathology.
24:56Some of us more than others.
24:59It was a strange one, right?
25:01Because generally speaking, the female characters were so much easier to write than the males because so many women had
25:08raised their hand and in great granular detail said,
25:11this is exactly what happened to me.
25:13This is how it happened.
25:14This is the power dynamic behind it.
25:15So I had all that I could borrow on.
25:18So Rush is on Renity's team.
25:20They're the competition.
25:21They're GOP party hacks.
25:23So he thinks he's way ahead of them.
25:24So steal from Drudge and Breitbart and not talk radio.
25:26Okay.
25:27Also stop worrying if the story's legit.
25:29If you can't source it, just go with what some are saying.
25:32Seriously?
25:35You have to adopt the mentality of an Irish street cop.
25:38The world is a bad place.
25:39People are lazy morons.
25:41Minorities are criminals.
25:42Sex is sick but interesting.
25:44Ask yourself what would scare my grandmother or piss off my grandfather.
25:48It's obviously the guy who's the perpetrator doesn't raise his hand and say, yeah, I'm the perpetrator.
25:52So, you know, so those are the, those, those are much harder stories to tell.
25:57But fortunately, you know, Roger had been a subject of a great deal of journalism, very good journalism.
26:02And, and that, and, and had also a kind of quasi sanctioned autobiography that was, that was available.
26:08It was a, it was a subject matter.
26:09The biography that didn't reveal, I think, all the sexual stuff.
26:14Uh, you're talking Gabe Sherman.
26:15Yeah.
26:16It was, he did a pretty good job though.
26:18It just didn't in terms of some of, some of the underlying Roger's desire to sexualize his power.
26:25What he didn't get to is the actual expressions of that, which obviously the women that, that I talked to.
26:30Can I ask you a question?
26:31I'll take your hand.
26:32It's, it's, it's a really interesting thing that I've been wrestling with and trying to make my way through.
26:37And I'd love to know what your guys' opinion about this is.
26:39When you're writing a character whose views sort of roughly align with your own, it's, it's much more effortless to
26:45work on that character.
26:47Then you have to somehow write a character who's, who you have no empathy for.
26:52And yet the task, we kind of have to love our characters equally.
26:55Yeah.
26:56And it's a bit like, to have an even boxing match, they have to be in the same weight division.
27:01And the question is, how do you write empathetically for someone who you don't have, you know, any instinct for?
27:09I prefer it.
27:10And maybe it's a form of self-hatred, I don't know, but, but I prefer to write people who I
27:14don't agree with.
27:15Because I can counter, I can turn the scene so many more times because I naturally have an instinct to
27:21counter their, their, their ideas.
27:23So I much prefer to write conservatives.
27:25And does it change you?
27:26Does it change your view of that person?
27:29I think, I think anytime you write a human being, it, it, it does some form of normalizing is too
27:35strong a word,
27:35but it does some form of giving you an empathetic relationship to their place in the world.
27:40And that is, that is so helpful even for perpetrators of misdeeds.
27:44So when you wrote Jojo Rabbit, what was the toughest part of the writing?
27:49I don't really remember what the toughest part of it was.
27:51It was one of the few times I've written a script where I don't really remember doing it.
27:55Usually I would start at the end and then maybe a bit at the beginning and sort of figure it
28:00out all that way.
28:01This one, I just sort of went from beginning all the way through in a linear fashion.
28:05But I like writing characters that are desperate to be liked or desperate to be loved
28:11or desperate to be accepted or cool and who are just overcompensating so much that they become acerbic and really
28:18kind of horrible.
28:19And I like writing horrible people who, but who aren't necessarily villains or, you know,
28:25it's more that they are just trying so hard to, to have an opinion or trying so hard to be
28:31cool.
28:31I find them really, I find them really fun to write.
28:33What was the genesis of that idea?
28:36I think it's just from wanting to be liked or myself.
28:39About the boy and the...
28:41Oh, the genesis of this film?
28:42Yes, yes, yes.
28:43It's inspired by a book that I read in 2010 called Caging Skies.
28:48And then the book is very much a sort of darker piece and it's about this boy and this girl.
28:54And so the bones of it, you know, of the film are within that, which is a boy who's in
28:59the youth,
29:00discovers his mother is hiding a girl in their attic.
29:02And it's really sort of, that was what the only sort of real thing I took from that.
29:05I don't really know how to make a straight drama.
29:09I'm not sure I'm capable of that.
29:11I had to add in things that would make it more interesting to myself and sensibilities that are specific to
29:16how I tell stories,
29:17which is humor, fantastical elements, little heightened moments, and this imaginary character.
29:24And so none of that were in the book.
29:26So to kind of make it more interesting...
29:28In the book, that's interesting.
29:30When you write, what's the toughest part of writing for you?
29:33What do you struggle with?
29:34Writing is an exercise in empathy.
29:35So for me, that's always my approach.
29:40So I tend to prefer characters that I don't necessarily agree with.
29:44And I like making them convince me a little bit.
29:48So I don't know what I find the toughest part.
29:51Probably just, what, act two?
29:53I don't know.
29:54Like the middle?
29:55Oh, really?
29:55Do you start at the beginning and work forward?
29:57No, I jump around too.
29:59For Hustlers, I wrote the scene where the two of them meet first.
30:03I wrote the scene where Jennifer Lopez's character wraps Constance Wu's character in a fur coat.
30:10That's a great scene.
30:11It's very much their relationship too.
30:13Yeah, I thought that immediate intimacy, especially because you've seen this character.
30:17She's grappling with loneliness and isolation and at this new place and doesn't have physical contact with any of these
30:24girls and has physical contact with men, obviously, and strangers.
30:27And I think that kind of intimacy that women have immediately was very exciting to me to show that mother
30:37-daughter relationship that sort of unfolds.
30:39It's interesting to me that you're partners with another writer, Beau Burnham, who was on this roundtable last year.
30:44Yes.
30:44How have you influenced his work and how has he influenced yours?
30:48Oh, I don't know.
30:49We're pretty separate entities.
30:50We do like to read each other's scripts and he shows me things he's working on.
30:55I show him things I'm working on, but I don't know.
30:58I mean, it's nice, obviously, to have someone that you trust that you can bounce off of.
31:03Did he give you any big note about the script?
31:05No, no.
31:07I showed him a cut and I would say he gave more notes on earlier cuts than on the script
31:13itself.
31:14Do you remember one of those notes?
31:16Oh, gosh.
31:17There was more voiceover in the beginning and there's an interview that is part of the framing of the story,
31:28but you don't arrive at it right away.
31:31So I had this voiceover that led us there and people were seeing it as two different devices.
31:37They were seeing the voiceover and this interview and I was like, but the voiceover is the interview.
31:43So kind of just, yeah, pared it down in the beginning and got to the essentials.
31:48Where did you begin with Just Mercy?
31:49And you had a very well-known lawyer in that film.
31:53What was the most difficult part of writing that script?
31:55I wrote the script. We adapted it from the book Just Mercy and I wrote it with Andrew Lanham.
32:03And we definitely stepped into it with a big weight on our shoulders.
32:08A lot of self-doubt as to whether we are the right people to tell this story.
32:13What we had that was unusual was a partnership with Bryan Stevenson from day one.
32:20I mean, having my first conversation with Bryan and hearing how he connected with the work that I had done
32:27and what he thought I could bring to this story was the thing that made me feel like I could
32:33do it.
32:33And you can buddy up with these white folks and make them laugh and try to make them like you,
32:38whatever that is.
32:38And you say, yes or no, ma'am, but when it's your turn, they ain't got to have no fingerprints,
32:42no evidence.
32:46And the only witness they got made the whole thing up.
32:53And none of that matter when all y'all think is, is I look like a man who could kill
33:00somebody.
33:02But that's not what I think.
33:04He's incredibly gracious and not overbearing at all, but he was a resource from day one all the way through
33:13the process.
33:14And those, you know, I actually find that if you don't take liberties in adapting something,
33:21you honestly are going to be further from the truth because you're going to have just a sloppy,
33:28you just can't fit something into two hours unless you're piecing it together.
33:33We had Bryan Stevenson, who's an incredible storyteller.
33:37I mean, he is a lawyer, but his gift is storytelling and his gift is empathy.
33:43He does it in the courtroom.
33:45And that's all he does for his clients is he tries to allow a jury or a judge to understand
33:53a person in all of their layers.
33:55He starts with the stereotype or he starts with the crime or the criminal,
33:59and then he starts pulling off the layers so you understand the full person.
34:04And by the end of that understanding, you just, it's so much more difficult to judge.
34:09And that's what he was able to do with us throughout the process.
34:12And he really helped us fill in those blanks.
34:15What liberties with the truth did you take in the script?
34:20We fortunately did not have to take many liberties because Bryan was really helpful in helping us fill in the
34:28gaps.
34:28The liberties that we did take were just time.
34:32We didn't really create any scenes.
34:35We created the dialogue in the scenes, but we didn't have to make up any events.
34:40But we did shift things around to happen in the flow of what we wanted the script to be.
34:47But even documentaries are shifting.
34:49That's what I was going to say. It's a story.
34:51I think there are varying levels of how respectful you need to be to the truth or to the actual
34:58events.
34:58Cinema is so different and telling stories and even comes down to just keeping them engaged,
35:05keeping people actually interested in these people because the actual events sometimes take course over six or seven years.
35:12Time compression is a gimme.
35:14You're going to have to do time compression.
35:16It's necessary.
35:17You also created a character though, right?
35:19I did, yeah.
35:20Yeah, because obviously the one woman you never hear from in those scenarios is the woman who has a quid
35:24pro quo sexual relationship with a boss.
35:27And, you know, it would be cruel to out someone in that way, but also it's just that's a hard
35:31narrative to access.
35:32And so it felt important that that person not only be a composite, fixed slash fictional, but we say that,
35:40you know, clearly.
35:40You're talking about the Margot Robbie.
35:42I am a character.
35:43So in fact, was there anybody who came out and said, yes, I did have a sexual relationship with him
35:47under pressure?
35:48Yes.
35:49Oh, interesting.
35:49But you didn't go with that character.
35:51Why?
35:52The most famous relationship happened prior to the framework of the film.
35:56It was also a relationship that began prior to the starting of Fox and a relationship that carried into Fox.
36:04And its status as a relationship that qualifies under the legal term sexual harassment was problematic because it was pre
36:12-existent.
36:13And so I really wanted to very clear stories that that illustrated the dynamic without getting into things that were,
36:21you know, I want emotionally complicated scenarios, but not ones that were sort of legally mired.
36:27Yeah.
36:27Did you find anything to like about Roger Ailes?
36:30Yeah.
36:31Yeah.
36:31Roger's not Harvey.
36:32Roger was a man who was genuinely beloved by a lot of people, you know, very much so, and even
36:38by lefties.
36:39And so he was someone whose capacity for seduction was pretty profound.
36:44By the way, you could say the same about Harvey.
36:46I mean, he's a man who, when he wants to, could be incredibly charming.
36:50See, I never had a good experience.
36:51When he wasn't threatening your life, you know, and I've had him, had both.
36:55Interesting.
36:56You never had a good experience with him?
36:57No.
36:58I mean, I haven't had many at all, but, but, but, but, um, yeah, I don't know.
37:01I don't know a lot of people who have real love for Harvey.
37:04Even 10 years ago, I didn't know a lot of people.
37:06I know people who said, oh, he leaves me alone.
37:08I get to make my movies.
37:09I'm happy about that because he doesn't normally do that for most directors.
37:11I've had that conversation, but I've never had.
37:13But, but, but Roger was capable of a kind of register of paternalism that really appealed to a lot of
37:19people.
37:19And, and, um, so, uh, and he was good at what he did, you know, uh, perhaps to, you know,
37:25to the chagrin of those, those on the left.
37:27But, um, he was good at that.
37:28Actor, you always refused to work for Harvey Weinstein.
37:31Uh, was it easy to say no?
37:34How much do you have a liberty to say no to projects, especially when you're starting?
37:39It was a kind of, I don't know what it is.
37:41It's some sort of compass that just said, no danger, Will Robinson, you know, go over here.
37:47And it was just, it was just myself, self defense mechanism kicked in.
37:53And I just thought, I don't want to become a victim of what I know, um, he's done with other
37:57people.
37:57You know, when you hear that someone who's done one film with him, then, then insists on a clause in
38:04the contract,
38:05a non screaming contract that if Harvey screams at you, um, you get this amount of reimbursement.
38:14And I thought, no, I don't, life is way too short.
38:18Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah.
38:18Mine's too short for that.
38:19You had Harvey's screaming clause and stuff, and I thought, life is way too short.
38:23And, you know, I want to work with people I, you know, want to have a beer with.
38:26Is the business an easier place to work today, or not?
38:30I don't think it is.
38:31I haven't worked with a screamer in a long time, you know, but I mean, I know they're out there.
38:37And you did?
38:37Well, yeah.
38:37What was your worst experience?
38:39When I was an actor, I worked with somebody who was, um, I mean, I had a lot of love
38:46for him, but he was, um, you know, just cranky.
38:49And, and, you know, I remember after takes and, um, he yelled at so many people after takes saying, you
38:55know, was that okay?
38:56And he said, yeah, it was good.
38:57It was fine.
38:57I would have yelled at you if it wasn't, you know, that kind of guy, you know, but, um, I,
39:01it certainly wasn't part of the, of my approach.
39:04Um, because I did get to where as an actor work with directors that I, uh, you know, I could
39:10admire.
39:11And so I knew what I, what I liked.
39:13And so that's what I tried to bring in.
39:15But I don't know.
39:15Is it a gentler business?
39:16I feel like it's, um, I like to think that it's easier now.
39:20Because I think now, especially with, you know, the web and it's so much easier for people just to, to
39:27say things, you know, just to speak out.
39:29Where, you know, before Twitter and before people, you know, before it was okay to kind of come out and
39:36say, this guy just did this to me.
39:38Or, you know, this person, this person just like screamed at me.
39:41It was just, um, you know, it was just like secondhand news.
39:44You'd just hear it through conversation, you know, at a bar and say, oh, I heard this thing about this.
39:48You know, there's no way to kind of get those stories out there.
39:51And I think now people, you know, I don't, I've never thankfully worked with any actors or anyone who, you
39:57know, have brought so much ego to set or, you know, brought this attitude to set, which was pretty common,
40:03I feel, in like the 80s and the 90s, based on what I've heard and read.
40:06Because I feel like there's no place for it anymore and people, they won't stand for it, you know.
40:11But also, on the business side, you know, and maybe the companies I work with, there are women in the
40:14room now, you know.
40:16And there weren't, you know, 10, 15, 20 years ago, right.
40:19And that, that, that has changed the underlying.
40:21Has the Me Too movement noticeably changed things, do you think?
40:26I think so.
40:27I think so.
40:27Yeah, I mean, people aren't as blatant about it anymore.
40:31I mean, I was going to say, I wonder if it's changed for us sitting at this table because, I
40:36mean, recently I was not sitting at tables and, and it's not easy when you're not in a position of
40:43power.
40:43So I don't know anymore.
40:44I think once you're in a position of power, you might be facing different people who are treating you differently
40:50and talking to you differently.
40:51Since hospitals, have you noticed that people treat you differently?
40:53Yes, yes.
40:55Yeah, my agent came over the other day.
40:58She'd never been over before.
41:00So, yeah, yeah.
41:02It changes immediately.
41:04Yeah.
41:10What do you guys think about the current war between the Writers Guild and the agencies?
41:16Well, we all want it to be resolved as quickly as possible.
41:20I, I love my agents.
41:22They do a great job for me.
41:23When I heard about this conflict, it was, I was blindsided by it.
41:28I was very happy with the state of things.
41:30And then I found about these issues that were profoundly affecting our colleagues.
41:34So I stand with the Writers Guild.
41:36You do, Charles?
41:37I do, but I want a quick resolution.
41:39Yeah, I stand with the Guild too.
41:40I mean, I haven't ever made a TV show, so it's a little bit different, I think, for us than
41:45it would be for people who come out of television.
41:47Do you all stand with the Writers Guild or does anybody not?
41:50I do, and I want a quick resolution too.
41:53It's like, I'm too stressed out to have to think about stuff like this.
41:56I've got too many things happening.
41:58Are you stressed?
41:59Yeah.
41:59Yeah, I mean, you can't see my legs, but what they're doing right now.
42:02Yeah, I'm stressed out.
42:03I mean, is success stressful?
42:06It depends what success.
42:07I mean, having people see your films, that's my sort of…
42:11That's stressful.
42:12It's stressful, but also finishing a film and getting it out there is actually a relief.
42:17It's one less thing they have to worry about anymore.
42:20So it's just…
42:20For me, it's just about meeting whatever deadlines I have and just handing things in.
42:24Finishing something and then getting it out of my life as fast as possible, that's the stress relief.
42:29And having to go to round tables and talk about it.
42:31I mean, these are the worst.
42:33Destin, you seem very calm.
42:35What most stresses you about working in film?
42:39The calmer I seem, the more stressed I am.
42:41I mean, I find…
42:43I actually get very anxious anytime I'm leading up to a project.
42:47It feels like I'm going to die.
42:49And I tell my wife, don't ever let me do this again.
42:53I actually asked her how many times I've said that.
42:56And she said before, every movie that you've ever directed, I say that.
42:59And I'm so serious about it.
43:00But it is like how my wife describes childbirth.
43:04As soon as it's over and I've gone through the process with such an amazing team
43:10and have built this family, the memory of it becomes so beautiful that I'm like,
43:17yeah, let's do this again.
43:18What about writing?
43:19Is that therapeutic or is that stressful?
43:22For me, I find it so psychologically damaging and challenging.
43:30Really?
43:30But…
43:30Why?
43:32Because I have so much room for self-doubt.
43:35When I'm on set and directing, it's just there's so many people making it together.
43:42And you have to move so fast that you don't have time for self-doubt.
43:45You're just like, boom, boom, boom.
43:46Oh, that's working.
43:47That's not working.
43:47And writing, I can write a scene and be like, oh, that sucks.
43:53And then go again.
43:54And then it's so easy to get in my head.
43:57What about the rest of you?
43:58Is writing stressful?
43:59Is it…
43:59I find it enjoyable or maybe it's more that it's just second nature to me by now.
44:05I've been doing it since I was a kid.
44:07I was writing scripts when I was in like fourth grade.
44:09I should say scripts in quotes because they were not bad.
44:12But attempts at screenplays in like fourth grade.
44:15So for me, it's just an all-day, everyday thing.
44:19It's lonely.
44:21It's definitely lonely.
44:21And now that I love being on set, I never knew what it meant when singers would say,
44:29like, I feel so at home on stage.
44:31And I was like, no, you don't.
44:33But it's really now it's a way to get back on set because I think that's, for me anyway,
44:39the pure joy of it.
44:40What about you?
44:40Do you like writing?
44:41Yeah, I mean, I think I've always found it lonely.
44:44But then my favorite thing is actually after people have gone to bed.
44:47I don't have to talk to anyone.
44:49And then that's my favorite time is to sit there and come up with ideas.
44:52The thing really is like, the thing I find the hardest now, just having so many things
44:59that I've, and it's my own fault because I said yes to them.
45:01But it's just starting with that blank page.
45:05And just then, oh my God, I've got 120 of these to fill up.
45:11And it's really, yeah.
45:14I mean, when I've got a flow going on, it's amazing.
45:17And I just won't stop.
45:18And it's more just, and I don't tend to sort of, I try not to sit in front of a
45:24computer.
45:25I try not to, like, just sit there and stare.
45:28And I try as much as I can to kind of get all the beats as much, you know,
45:33or figure out a sort of loose shape of the story before I start typing.
45:36Name one writer you all admire individually.
45:40It doesn't have to be a screenwriter.
45:41Nobody around this table, but is there one writer who's really influenced you?
45:46I think I would have to say the late, great Toni Morrison, just because she had such a profound
45:53effect on my kind of world view in terms of literature and African American literature
45:58and the way that I approached character.
46:02Anthony?
46:04I wasn't a writer until I sat in on an English literature course at my second year of university
46:10by accident.
46:11I was keen on a girl and I followed her into this room, sat beside her and asked if I
46:16could
46:17have a look at her text.
46:18She was the mother of my first child.
46:20And the book that she was studying was the Norton Anthology of American Literature post-1945.
46:28And I took a copy of this home and started reading it.
46:30And it was a real epiphany for me because it said to a working class kid from Taranaki, New Zealand,
46:37that you didn't have to be a professor to be a writer.
46:40You could write about the domestic.
46:42You could write about the banal.
46:44But you had to do it with passion and you had to provide some insight.
46:47And the accessibility of post-war American literature changed my view of what I felt I was capable of doing.
46:58Yeah, for me it's been different.
46:59There were phases of different writers, you know.
47:03Often an association with a project will fall in love with that writer.
47:08David Foster Wallace had an influence on Big Short.
47:11Currently, you know, I rely a lot on Anthony Appiah's work just because of his worldview.
47:17It's so delightful, I think, for this chaotic time.
47:20Justin?
47:21Bradbury was probably where I...
47:24I honestly struggled with writing growing up.
47:28I've never considered myself smart enough to write.
47:32Bradbury is an intellect like no other.
47:35But there's something really accessible about his characters.
47:39To me, my journey as an artist has been just trying to find a place in myself to be myself
47:48through what I'm creating.
47:50And not try to be something other than that.
47:54And my strength, I find, is that.
47:58I try to be as vulnerable as I can through the writing that I do.
48:01And not try to be smarter than I am.
48:04Because I'm, you know, I'm not that smart.
48:09But I...
48:11That's where I gravitate towards.
48:14Lorraine, what about you?
48:15I grew up, like, loving plays.
48:18So I loved Sam Shepard growing up.
48:20And then I loved Anthony Burgess at different times.
48:24I loved Tom Robbins is probably who I think of as, like, my high school, like, the writer I was...
48:32Yeah, yeah, exactly.
48:33Hiker?
48:35There are two that I usually go back to.
48:38William Faulkner.
48:39When I first was introduced to him, I'd never been to the South.
48:41I had no real idea of that world other than seeing stuff in films.
48:46And then just fell into, like, the way that he wrote.
48:49And especially with character and dialogue.
48:54Which is something that I...
48:56Just, yeah, resonated with me and I've always loved him.
48:59And then...
49:00I mean, I love short stories more than novels.
49:03I love them because I just... I think quicker.
49:06But also, I just feel like they're often more poetic for me.
49:09And, you know, sort of Hemingway's shorts.
49:13But I'd say Oscar Wilde is probably the guy I'm always going back to.
49:17Wow, that's so interesting.
49:17Because his wit, he's got such a...
49:18You choose those two writers in your work.
49:20Well, no, no, no.
49:21No, you wouldn't expect that, but...
49:22I'm trying to see the influence.
49:25You don't need to.
49:26It's probably Oscar Wilde's probably got the humor and the wit and the...
49:30They can see it.
49:31And, you know, I just love...
49:32He's just so like...
49:33And especially with his short pieces.
49:36He's just...
49:37He's cheeky.
49:39Mm-hmm.
49:39We talked about change in the industry.
49:42If you could change one thing in the industry, what would it be?
49:46Oh, I mean...
49:46I mean, wow.
49:49You know, it would have to kind of be this question of inclusiveness and parody.
49:53I mean, it's just...
49:55It's so...
49:56It's so overdue.
49:58And other places are doing much better at it than we are France, for instance, you know.
50:02Film has to kind of be a time capsule, you know, for who we are now and what we're interested
50:08in and what we're thinking about and what we're dreaming about.
50:10And it doesn't feel that way yet.
50:13I mean, it's beginning to feel that way.
50:16And so that's exciting.
50:17But I think it's a real tragedy, you know, that for so many years, just most of...
50:23It's a predominance of white men.
50:26I mean, I love those...
50:28You know, a lot of the movies and a lot of the voices are so important, but it's just...
50:31It's so out of step with reality.
50:34I mean, to back that up, when...
50:37Our movie was the first movie that Warner Brothers officially did the inclusion writer for.
50:44And I was able to see as a director firsthand, I mean, the same way that the Me Too movement
50:50has empowered people to just kind of start doing what they really believe anyway.
50:55And it allowed us to hire department heads who were African-American female, have been doing amazing work for like
51:0530 years and have never been a department head before.
51:08And we're giving them their first time being that.
51:11That, to me, is the power of that.
51:15And I hope that it happens more.
51:18Do you agree or would you say something else?
51:21Oh, I mean, I feel like that's most important.
51:23I mean, I think that's the biggest step.
51:25But the kinds of movie that get made, I mean, I think the financiers are very specific people.
51:31I would love to see more diversity in the financier department.
51:38I mean, it changed in 2008, really, the financial crisis, at least in my opinion, had such a large effect
51:45on even the kinds of movies that were getting made.
51:47Cynicism took over around that time.
51:49And so, in a way, I almost think these superhero films are a response to that cynicism.
51:54But money talks.
51:56I mean, it is.
51:57And you have audiences turning out.
51:59People obviously want to see what they want to see.
52:01I think we're going to miss Annapurna, for example.
52:04Yeah.
52:04Your movie, Booksmart.
52:06I mean, they developed some remarkable films.
52:09I know.
52:10It's kind of interesting how Megan Allison has been attacked in the business, when actually she's putting her own money
52:16in something that was wonderful, you know?
52:20I wonder if there's a kind of sexism at play there or...
52:23Yes.
52:23...or resentment.
52:25Absolutely, yeah.
52:26Yes.
52:26Certainly.
52:27Okay.
52:28I mean, you know, she's also young.
52:30She's also, you know, coming from money.
52:31But I think if she was a man, I don't know that that would have been the same reaction to...
52:35Beauty?
52:36I do.
52:37I mean...
52:37Last question.
52:38This one I've been dying to ask you.
52:40You're on a desert island.
52:41You've written about Stephen Hawking.
52:45You've written about Churchill.
52:48And you've written about the two popes.
52:50Which one of all your characters would you most like to be on an island with?
52:54Freddie Mercury.
52:55Oh.
52:57Way more fun.
52:59Way more fun than anyone else.
53:01He'd shown me something about living passionately.
53:04Absolutely.
53:04I mean, that guy burned.
53:06And for a quiet rider, that's probably the best life lesson for me.
53:10Charles?
53:11Yeah, Steve Eisman from The Big Short would be probably a pretty fun, you know...
53:15He would certainly not stop talking.
53:17Yeah.
53:17I mean, I was going to say Bryan Stevenson, not because he is a lawyer, but he actually happens
53:24to be an incredible jazz musician with an incredible voice.
53:29And he actually said that if he... I asked him if he wasn't doing this work, what would
53:36he be doing?
53:36And his whole family is really musical and he said he'd probably be in a jazz band.
53:42So...
53:42And he's a good storyteller.
53:44Yeah.
53:44Yeah.
53:45It would be very entertaining.
53:47I mean, I would definitely pick Harriet, but, you know, besides being possibly practically
53:52handy on a desert island, you know, and just an awesome person, she was a great storyteller.
53:57So, you know, she told her own stories, did these one-woman shows and told her own stories.
54:01And a singer, you know.
54:02I mean, my last movie was about my mother, and no offence to her, but I don't know if
54:21that would be healthy.
54:22So much for taking part in Close Up with the Hollywood Reporter writers.
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