- 7 hours ago
The Drama Actress Roundtable brings together Emilia Clarke, Michelle Williams, Patricia Arquette, Christine Baranski, Danai Gurira and Niecy Nash.
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00:00:07Hi, and welcome to Close Up with the Hollywood Reporter Drama Actresses.
00:00:11I'm Lacey Rose, and I'm joined by Patricia Arquette, Danai Gurira, Christine Baranski,
00:00:18Michelle Williams, Nisi Nash, and Emilia Clarke. Let's dive right into this. Okay,
00:00:24so we're gonna start with an icebreaker. Uh-oh. You can do this, I have faith.
00:00:28Complete this sentence. I knew I'd made it in Hollywood when?
00:00:33At first somebody told me, you'll know you made it in Hollywood when you become a Halloween costume.
00:00:39And so there was a moment of that, but then... Wait, were you? Did you become one?
00:00:44Yeah, I became a Halloween costume. Amazing.
00:00:46But then for my character from Reno 911, and then when I used to always wear a flower in my
00:00:51hair.
00:00:51People started to copy, and there that was. But then, I was at an event, and I saw America's Diane
00:01:00Carroll.
00:01:01Now, I know her, right? But the fact that she walked up to me and knew me, I said, boy,
00:01:08I might have arrived!
00:01:09That is true. That is true. That's amazing.
00:01:12I love it.
00:01:13So, yeah, I was at a gala event, and someone had asked me to auction something.
00:01:22So, we were trying to go through all the stuff, and then I couldn't auction.
00:01:25And I was like, oh, I'll just auction a dragon, but you can't do that.
00:01:28So, I was like, I'll auction, like, come and watch your favorite episode with me,
00:01:32and we'll eat, you know, a horse's heart or something. Anyway, so I have that.
00:01:36And I don't think about what it is until I actually get there, and I'm sitting in the room,
00:01:40and I'm sitting in the room with, like, every celebrity on the planet going,
00:01:44I thought this would be, like, a private thing. Like, they wouldn't say it out loud.
00:01:48So, they're saying it, and then I have to stand up, and it turns into the thing.
00:01:51And so, the auction comes up, the room goes completely silent, and I'm like, I'm going to die.
00:01:55I'm actually going to die. And then one of my friends who was on the table was like, puts his
00:02:00paddle up.
00:02:00And then suddenly, some other people start to put their paddles up.
00:02:04And then one of those people was Brad Pitt. So, that was fun.
00:02:09And then I win the color I'm going right now.
00:02:11And it was, yeah, that was, yeah, that was a pinch-free moment.
00:02:15But he didn't ultimately win.
00:02:16He didn't ultimately win. I know, my friend ultimately won, go figure.
00:02:20But I was at you like, you can stop now.
00:02:22You can do whatever you want.
00:02:24I was there, and there was a lot of back and forth.
00:02:27It was like, no, yes, no, no, no.
00:02:30I mean, it was some serious competition.
00:02:32It was the most ridiculous, surreal moment of my entire existence.
00:02:37Literally, I never called my friends and said anything.
00:02:39And I was like, guys, I just want to let you know.
00:02:42I think I realized, I got a phone call after I did True Romance,
00:02:46or someone left a message, and it was Bruce Willis, right?
00:02:50So, I called back like, shut up, who is this?
00:02:54I got a message from Bruce Willis.
00:02:55Hi.
00:02:56I'm like, who is this?
00:02:58Shut up.
00:02:59He's like, this is Bruce Willis.
00:03:02Oh.
00:03:04Hello.
00:03:06Nice to meet you.
00:03:07So, that was very weird and surreal.
00:03:09You know, I didn't get to Hollywood or accept any jobs in Hollywood doing television.
00:03:15I think until I was in, I was about 41 when I finally made the jump to television.
00:03:20I'd done some things, guest stars and all, but like Hollywood, no.
00:03:24I was just this theater actress for years and years and years.
00:03:27And then I did this sitcom called Sybil and got an Emmy nomination.
00:03:32And I remember arriving almost in time for the ceremony because we were stuck in traffic
00:03:37in that way that you get stuck in traffic on your way to awards.
00:03:40But I remember walking in with my borrowed $500,000 Chanel Camellia diamond necklace.
00:03:46Like, holy cow, when you work in the theater, you have to buy your own jewelry and get your own
00:03:50clothes.
00:03:51But I walked in and down and I was sitting behind David Letterman and there was Barbra Streisand across the
00:03:58aisle.
00:03:59And I barely had time to sit down in my seat, adjust my boobs in my leather bustier.
00:04:06And I heard my name called, you know, in the nominations because they always announce the supporting actresses first, which
00:04:13is great.
00:04:14And they called my name and I went up there and I got an Emmy.
00:04:17And then it was like, holy cow, you know, lovely moments.
00:04:22Yeah, I'd say.
00:04:24I guess mine is more related to the comic book genre.
00:04:30It was more like definitely the Halloween costumes was definitely like, what the heck is going on here?
00:04:38You know, that moment.
00:04:40And then lately, you know, it's been two of them.
00:04:42So it's one character I've played and then another at the same time, which has sort of bugged me out
00:04:47in a great way.
00:04:48It's like, that's awesome.
00:04:50You've been on cushions, I believe, right?
00:04:52Oh, Christ, yeah.
00:04:53And same at Weekly, do a cushion, right?
00:04:55They do a cushion.
00:04:56And if you're on the cover, then you're on a cushion.
00:04:58And one quite early on, my mum came with me to like a junket thing.
00:05:04And she saw the cushion.
00:05:05She flipped out over the cushion.
00:05:06So I was like, okay, cool.
00:05:07Keep me cool.
00:05:08Mum's just a cushion.
00:05:09And then I was doing Star Wars and she came to visit me when I was getting cyber scanned for
00:05:15the dolls and all that stuff.
00:05:16So she's with the marketing people who make all of the merchandise.
00:05:19And literally, it was just like, can I get like, what else can I get with my daughter's face on
00:05:25it?
00:05:25What else can you make up for me?
00:05:27And the guy was obviously being really incredibly polite.
00:05:30And of course, whatever you wanted to do.
00:05:31And I was like, dear God, please don't send her anything.
00:05:33And then one day, I get back from being away for a while, and my mum has made up the
00:05:37spare room with blankets and cushions.
00:05:41And like, this isn't for sale.
00:05:42Like, I sincerely doubt this is for sale.
00:05:44It's fine.
00:05:44They made it specifically for my mum.
00:05:47Just the huge amount of stuff with my face on.
00:05:50Oh.
00:05:51Yeah.
00:05:51I'm hoping there aren't pillows and blankets in other people's houses with your face on it.
00:05:55But who knows?
00:05:56Who knows?
00:05:57But in my house, they're in the attic.
00:05:59How would you guys describe the sort of current phase of your career, vis-a-vis the roles that are
00:06:04coming in?
00:06:05I mean, I feel like I could do this for you.
00:06:06It feels like the year of the complicated, I think you called them monster women.
00:06:13But yeah, how would you sort of describe what's coming your way now, what that phase looks like?
00:06:19I feel like it's a very exciting phase for me.
00:06:21And I didn't see that coming because I had always seen that women were sort of retired by the
00:06:28business at a certain point and, you know, didn't have much work.
00:06:32And I think I happened to be coming to this age at a time where all these networks, you know,
00:06:38we had like 500 networks.
00:06:39And then there was 500 channels, but nothing was really on.
00:06:42They were just all recycling the same stuff.
00:06:44And I kept thinking, you know, there's going to be a lot of work for actors at some point.
00:06:49There's got to be, or people are going to shut off their cable.
00:06:51And now all these networks are making content.
00:06:55And I'm so happy to and lucky to be coming to this age at a time where people are wanting
00:07:02to
00:07:04produce more material.
00:07:05Are you in the, in the, in the huge franchise portion?
00:07:10And these are not indie projects that you're working on.
00:07:14Um, yeah, I mean, I was saying earlier to you, this is not how I ever imagined how my
00:07:20life work would go, as I used to pretentiously call it.
00:07:23What did you think the lane was going to be?
00:07:25And how would you describe the lane you're currently in?
00:07:28Uh, well, cause I'm a playwright.
00:07:29So I really just expected to stay like in indie play world, you know what I mean?
00:07:35And, and step into this area in very specific ways.
00:07:38I never expected, you know, things like walking dead or Marvel, you know, I just never imagined
00:07:43it.
00:07:44Uh huh.
00:07:44So it's kind of, I sort of am catching up to that in a little way, but I, I, at
00:07:48the same
00:07:48time I, um, yeah, the, the, there is approaches that involve that type of stuff that happen now.
00:07:55But, um, I think the, the beauty of it is I, I just love to tell like, you know, the
00:07:59idea of
00:08:00all the opportunities that are now out there for so many different sort of stories to be told.
00:08:04And sort of the thing on my heart is to get different stories told from various perspectives
00:08:08that I haven't seen in certain mediums yet, like on, you know, on, on, on our network television
00:08:13yet or at the places like that.
00:08:14And that's kind of that, that idea, that thing that drives me a lot, um, as, as a writer as
00:08:18well is, is getting those sort of stories, perspectives we rarely hear from heard from.
00:08:23We still got a ways to go.
00:08:24We got, we got some work to do.
00:08:25We have a long way to go.
00:08:26And also I almost never see projects with the elderly, like great actors, great directors,
00:08:35they really, even just the stories, what, what's going on.
00:08:39It's like a, a world we almost never, ever see.
00:08:43That's very true.
00:08:43I, I think there's a lot of stories to be told and I feel like, um, the lack of diversity
00:08:49in all these stories has really harmed this form of art because it's.
00:08:55And it shouldn't be just people who are losing their mind or suffering, you know,
00:08:58movies about Alzheimer's.
00:09:00Yeah.
00:09:01I mean, I, I can speak to that.
00:09:02I'm, I'm in my, I just finished my 10th year of playing the same character on,
00:09:07of Diane Lockhart.
00:09:09And for seven years I was number two, you know, the supporting actress on The Good Wife.
00:09:14And I loved my role and I thought it was, you know, great.
00:09:18She was the head of the law firm and the authority figure and she was strong and dignified and
00:09:24well-dressed.
00:09:25And I, I loved that role, but she's, you know, with the spinoff that, that was created three
00:09:30years ago, she's now number one.
00:09:32And, you know, honestly, I got the number one position finally in my career and I was in
00:09:37my sixties.
00:09:38So it's like, all right.
00:09:39I like to think, you know, I like to say that there is movement forward and, you know,
00:09:45these are the best years of my career.
00:09:47I get offered wonderful theater roles.
00:09:50I'm, I'm finally a leading lady at, after all this time, I was always, you know, sitting,
00:09:56waiting, the best supporting actress award goes to somebody else.
00:09:59But, you know, it was always a supporting actress and I'm, you know, I'm the leading
00:10:03lady in a show that's, I'm still this strong, authoritative, professional woman, well-educated.
00:10:10We're seeing women like that in our culture who are now running for president and running
00:10:15the house of representative.
00:10:16Thank you very much.
00:10:17Doing very well.
00:10:18You know, women this age are powerful and I love that somehow in this moment of time,
00:10:23moment in time, I'm playing in a, in a TV show that reflects that.
00:10:27And it's, it's high time that, you know, women of such authority and, and, you know,
00:10:33have their real airtime long overdue.
00:10:37Do you guys feel like there is a certain type of, of character or role that are coming your way
00:10:42now?
00:10:43I probably have to say for me, it would be things that lend themselves to this category,
00:10:50the dramatic category, because I spent the majority of my career in comedy.
00:10:54And that was the whole bit.
00:10:56You're funny.
00:10:57That's what we know you as.
00:10:58And that's where you shall remain.
00:11:00And it took me many, many years to get someone to give me a chance.
00:11:05And then things started to change because of it.
00:11:09Now, don't get me wrong.
00:11:10I love, love, love to make people laugh.
00:11:12And I think it's a gift, but there is something there.
00:11:16It, it, the, I feel blessed to be able to use a different part of my instrument, you know,
00:11:23because the other part, I wake up funny.
00:11:26You know what I mean?
00:11:27I, you know what I mean?
00:11:28I, so I'm so used to being funny that when I get to be anything else, I'm like, ooh.
00:11:35And it, it, um, it blesses my soul.
00:11:38I have heard you say that you had, I mean, that you were sort of told, yeah, you have Elaine,
00:11:42you're funny, and that you sort of set a meeting to sort of reintroduce yourself.
00:11:47What did that look like?
00:11:48How receptive were people to that reintroduction?
00:11:52Well, the interesting thing about it is, you know, we, everybody has a team.
00:11:55We have folk, we have people.
00:11:57And in those people, I kept trying to, you know, well, let me talk to this one,
00:12:01because maybe you can, well, let me ask you, what you think?
00:12:04And then finally, I was like, nobody is hearing me.
00:12:07So I just called a team meeting and got everybody together.
00:12:11And they were like, well, what's happening?
00:12:12Why are we here?
00:12:13What's going on?
00:12:14And I said, I just wanted to reintroduce myself to you,
00:12:17because in the years that we've been together, mother has changed.
00:12:22Things are different.
00:12:23You know what I mean?
00:12:23I don't want today what I wanted back then.
00:12:26Back then, I was just hungry, but I wanted to eat, you know what I mean?
00:12:30And now the refrigerator is full.
00:12:32Now we can do some other things.
00:12:33So I just wanted them to see me like I saw me.
00:12:37Yeah.
00:12:38And so that we can go on the path together and not have it feel,
00:12:43you know, like we were disconnected.
00:12:45Does anyone, can anyone else relate to that?
00:12:47And I mean, having those sort of conversations of,
00:12:49I'd like you to see me in a, in a different way.
00:12:51Yeah.
00:12:52Yeah.
00:12:52Yeah.
00:12:53Well, I, because I was stupidly lucky at a very young age,
00:12:57and fell into something that has just been miraculous on every level.
00:13:02Small show.
00:13:02Tiny.
00:13:02Tiny.
00:13:03Like in the beginning, I was just like, I'm employed.
00:13:06Yeah, I'm hungry.
00:13:06I need to put some meat in the fridge.
00:13:08That's, and it happened to be incredibly, it was brilliant.
00:13:12It's been amazing.
00:13:13But it's, yeah, it's 10 years on one show.
00:13:16And when I started, I was a baby.
00:13:18I was an absolute child.
00:13:19He didn't know what IMDB was.
00:13:21Mm-hmm.
00:13:22You know what I mean?
00:13:23And so, throughout this time, it's, it's, I mean, I don't have the guts to be like,
00:13:29yo guys, this is the new me.
00:13:31I have something to say, and it's not what I said before.
00:13:34But in the beginning, it was like, hey, do you want to do this really, really big movie?
00:13:37And you're like, yeah, of course I do.
00:13:38Like, are you kidding?
00:13:39Yeah, this is, and then you do lots and lots of them, and you start to see that you haven't,
00:13:44or not at any point, you've, at no point you've kind of gone in and gone, no, this is my
00:13:48voice.
00:13:49This is what it sounds like.
00:13:51I didn't know what my voice was, because I was so young.
00:13:53And I just wanted to do all of the fabulous things that everyone paints to be, like, Hollywood perfect.
00:13:59And then suddenly you're like, no, I went to drama school.
00:14:01I care about art.
00:14:03I care about telling the right stories.
00:14:05I care about working with auteurs.
00:14:07I care about inhabiting characters that have something to say.
00:14:12And it takes a minute for the people around you to go, oh, right.
00:14:16Oh, sorry, I thought you just wanted to eat.
00:14:19I did feel like I also encountered a little pushback.
00:14:24I'd come, I was lucky enough to have success when I was young,
00:14:28and a lot of that was the boy and girl story and being an ingenue.
00:14:33Yeah.
00:14:33And then as I was getting older, there was still, you know, this kind of pressure to look a certain
00:14:38way.
00:14:39I had an argument with one of the producers on Medium of, he told me I should lose weight,
00:14:45and I was like, no, this lady's a mother, she's married, she's got three kids.
00:14:48No.
00:14:49So, but still, that kind of expectation of being beautiful, of looking a certain way,
00:14:56and then, okay, you could be 40, but you've got to look like a great 40.
00:15:00You've got to look like 40 who looks 30.
00:15:03You know, that kind of a thing.
00:15:05So when I was doing, starting to work on Escape at Dannemora, and then again with the act,
00:15:14I definitely felt some pushback and had some conversations about taking that chance
00:15:22and looking a certain way that I wouldn't work anymore, you know, that I would lose work.
00:15:29Because really, and in fairness, they'll have those conversations.
00:15:33What does she look like now?
00:15:35Why don't you send us a picture of what she looks like right now?
00:15:36Yeah.
00:15:37And I said, you know what, I've had a good run as an ingenue, all these different things,
00:15:42but it's also always been a little bit of a box.
00:15:45I always wanted to be an actor, and I never got to really do character work.
00:15:50And you know what, I want to really go for this and really explore this thing,
00:15:55because I feel like it's free, and I trust myself as an artist.
00:16:01I've earned my own trust within myself to say, that's the path I want to go on.
00:16:08And see, you know what the trick bag is about that, is that when we enter on a set,
00:16:13the very first thing that they do is they put us in hair and makeup,
00:16:16and we walk out of there looking like angels are dancing on our face.
00:16:19And so the minute that you have to interpret a character, because this happened to me
00:16:23when I did Getting On, which was where I got my first Emmy nomination,
00:16:27and they took everything off.
00:16:29They wouldn't even let me wear a spank, girl.
00:16:31I said, this is what kind of evil is this.
00:16:35They took everything.
00:16:38And then they put me under the worst lighting God has ever created and said, now act.
00:16:43And I said, oh, that's what's happening.
00:16:46But I will tell you that it was so freeing for me.
00:16:50And I leaned so much on just trusting my gift and the pretentiousness and the part that I had
00:16:57learned early on in the career that you got to strap it down and hold it back.
00:17:04And I was able to divorce myself from that.
00:17:07And honestly, the worst I looked on camera, these are the jobs that people show up for
00:17:12and be like, we see what you're doing over there, girl.
00:17:15Because they see through it.
00:17:16They see through the powdered beauty because it can be distracting.
00:17:22And then you get to actually show humanity and a part and a character.
00:17:26Mm-hmm.
00:17:27Are there roles and ways that you guys are still hoping to be seen?
00:17:31Are there some dream roles that are not coming your way?
00:17:33Buddy cop. Let's do the buddy cop.
00:17:36I like it.
00:17:37No, well, I'm just kidding.
00:17:38But sort of, yeah.
00:17:40I mean, just like something goofy.
00:17:41I think I've been doing a lot of like, well, my characters have been very, quote unquote, strong.
00:17:47Yes.
00:17:47And that can have its own trap-dom.
00:17:49You know what I mean?
00:17:50Though, thankfully, I've had a really, like, especially with, lately with, like, Okoya,
00:17:54for instance, or whatever, in the Marvel movies, she's got a lot of different things.
00:17:58She's very humorous and she's got a lot of heart.
00:18:00So, and so does Michonne.
00:18:01But it's just like, but, you know, I just got to expand more of the spectrum with her.
00:18:06But the idea of, like, say, putting away strong all together.
00:18:09Uh-huh.
00:18:10Like, I have no strength.
00:18:12Let's start from there.
00:18:14That would be interesting for me.
00:18:15Sure.
00:18:15Yeah, that would be really good.
00:18:17What about you guys?
00:18:17I love that.
00:18:18Michelle and I were, I was saying to Michelle, what a brilliant job she did as Gwen, Gwen Verdon,
00:18:23and like, what was the preparation?
00:18:25Uh-huh.
00:18:26We were both talking about how liberating it is to sing and dance.
00:18:29And there's never enough time to learn it.
00:18:30But when you get into it, it's such a wonderful frontier.
00:18:34I can't announce what I'm doing next because they haven't formally announced it.
00:18:38But I am singing any chance I get because I'm preparing for a role that involves singing.
00:18:44So we're going to karaoke after this?
00:18:47Yeah.
00:18:48We're going to do it.
00:18:49We're going to do it.
00:18:50It's so liberating in a terrifying, wonderful way.
00:18:53But this release.
00:18:55It is, isn't it?
00:18:56There's joy there.
00:18:57Yeah.
00:18:57There's joy.
00:18:58Like, you return to some sort of childhood state.
00:19:02Like, you lose your self-consciousness because you can't really, that part of your brain,
00:19:06and it can't be accessed while you're singing and you're dancing because your sort of logic
00:19:14is turned off because you're remembering things and you're doing steps and your body is involved
00:19:18and like your diaphragm is involved.
00:19:21And so it's this kind of, it runs through your entire system.
00:19:26And I found it when I did, well, when I did Marilyn, I started dancing a little bit.
00:19:31And then when I did Cabaret for a year, I was singing and dancing.
00:19:34And I, as difficult as those things were, I noticed that there was something inside of them,
00:19:39this joy.
00:19:40And I just thought, well, whatever.
00:19:42I want to get back to that.
00:19:44Like, that's a place that I really want to live more often.
00:19:47And because of living in New York and because of having access to this theater community,
00:19:51I've just made that a part of my life.
00:19:53And it's something that I'm always kind of looking to do.
00:19:55And so when, when she came up, when Gwen came up, I was like, oh, perfect.
00:19:59That's the, that'll, that'll like cover everything that I'm really interested in doing right now.
00:20:05That'll, that'll check all my boxes.
00:20:07Sure.
00:20:07You guys are at points in your careers where you can afford to be picky.
00:20:11You afford to say, no, don't want to do that.
00:20:15What are the examples for you guys of things that you're like, yeah, just,
00:20:18I'm just not going to do that.
00:20:19Don't want to play a cranky old lady.
00:20:21Don't want to play a bitch or a powerful woman who,
00:20:25because she's powerful is a bitch, you know, all the stereotypes about older women.
00:20:29No, not going to do it.
00:20:31No, no.
00:20:31I don't want to travel for work.
00:20:35I've somehow managed to work out of New York for the last seven years.
00:20:39My daughter stayed in the same school and the same friends.
00:20:41And that's like a super high priority to me.
00:20:43I really want to be able to find things that I love to do and stay at home.
00:20:48I'm, you know, I'm at a place in this moment where I don't want to be a sassy black anything.
00:20:54I don't want to be a sassy black mama.
00:20:56I don't want to be a sassy black neighbor.
00:20:57I don't want to be a sassy black friend.
00:21:00You know, I just, there's, there's, there's so many more notes to be played.
00:21:06Broken is a delicious note to play on camera.
00:21:10The mother that I play in when they see us is just white knuckling it and doing the best she
00:21:19can.
00:21:19You know, and I know when I had my first baby, they give me this kid and I literally was
00:21:24like,
00:21:25they don't let me leave with this little thing.
00:21:27And I was inching towards the door, like I'm leaving.
00:21:30And I was like, man, you know, but as a mother, we are so, that's when you realize how imperfect
00:21:37you are.
00:21:38Sure.
00:21:38You have this idea, I'm going to show up to the thing and I'm going to, and it all falls
00:21:43apart.
00:21:44And, and surviving and thriving and still trying to create a life that is good for this other human
00:21:52being you, you brought into the world, but you're a victim of your own pain.
00:21:56You're a victim of your own experience.
00:21:58Just because you had a baby doesn't erase all of those things.
00:22:01So leaning into this woman that I played here, she wasn't a sassy anything.
00:22:10And it was absolutely delicious to find her pain and her brokenness.
00:22:15And some places it overlapped mine.
00:22:17You know what I mean?
00:22:18And that's when you get in that scene and y'all, y'all have experienced it where
00:22:22when them tears start flowing and they ain't because of the script, you need to miss all
00:22:27no.
00:22:35I've been really, really lucky with playing Daenerys that every single season,
00:22:39she's different.
00:22:40Every single season, she grows and she changes and evolves and gets stronger
00:22:45and more powerful.
00:22:47But, but also the kind of the thing that I've enjoyed the most is the fragility.
00:22:51So when, when looking at like, what do I not want to do?
00:22:55It's I've been so insanely lucky with this woman who is evolving and changing and
00:23:02it's very much this season.
00:23:04And so I've got to kind of inhabit so many different spaces with her.
00:23:07So from a character point of view, there's nothing in my mind that I would not
00:23:13want to venture into because I kind of just, I just want to try everything now that the show
00:23:18is done.
00:23:19I want to kind of see what, what I'm going to be, what I'm going to do, what, what I,
00:23:23I don't know what I want to do.
00:23:24The one thing I do sort of know is that I would like to do, um, I would not like
00:23:28to do something
00:23:29that, that would, that would, um, that would have like a sequel.
00:23:32Uh-huh.
00:23:33You know what I mean?
00:23:34Something that could have like, and then two and then three and then four and then like,
00:23:37I'd like to not do one of those for a minute.
00:23:39That is what a lot of these franchise movies are.
00:23:42That would be really good.
00:23:43You're signing on to potentially,
00:23:45Yeah.
00:23:46Committing to the next seven years of your life.
00:23:48Exactly.
00:23:49And to do something that has been made before.
00:23:51I mean, literally has been made before, not like a character that we've seen a bunch,
00:23:54but like an actual thing that has been made already.
00:23:58And then I just do it again, badly.
00:24:01One of the things you sort of famously did not want to do.
00:24:06Oh God, I know.
00:24:07No such thing as off the record.
00:24:09No.
00:24:09Literally.
00:24:10That was the article.
00:24:11Oh my God.
00:24:12This woman was like, it's fine.
00:24:14What is it?
00:24:14Did you turn down anything really juicy?
00:24:15And I was like, this conversation's been going on for two and a half hours.
00:24:19Okay, fine.
00:24:19Yeah, I did.
00:24:20I turned down.
00:24:21Fifty Shades of Grey.
00:24:21There you go.
00:24:22But I'm curious in that, I mean, how much of that was the sort of idea of being pigeonholed?
00:24:27The last time that I was naked on camera on the show was a long time ago.
00:24:32And yet it is the only question that I ever get asked because I am a woman.
00:24:37And it is annoying as hell.
00:24:40And I'm sick and tired of it.
00:24:41Yeah.
00:24:42Because I did it for the character.
00:24:43I didn't do it for titillation.
00:24:44I didn't do it so some guy could check out my tits, for God's sake.
00:24:49So that coming up, I was like, I can't.
00:24:52So me saying yes to that, I was just like, no way.
00:24:55Am I going to voluntarily walk into that situation and then never be able to look someone in the eye
00:25:00and be like, no, you can't keep asking me this question.
00:25:03Right.
00:25:03Because that would be the question that they would then ask because you're signing up for it.
00:25:07You guys are all looking.
00:25:07Can you relate to this?
00:25:09I can.
00:25:11I had a situation that was a little bit of the reverse in that I had to do a scene.
00:25:16And I mean, I mean, and it was only like partial things that kind of had to show.
00:25:20And my thing was, you know, I'm not a size two.
00:25:24You know what I mean?
00:25:24And I was taking one.
00:25:25I was like, I'm going to go for it for the thick girl out there that needs to see herself
00:25:29represented,
00:25:30having sex on her own accord and owning her own body and not.
00:25:34She's just showing up for the pleasure of a man.
00:25:36I was like, oh, Lord, let me take a water pill.
00:25:38Let me think then.
00:25:41Let me get out here.
00:25:42And then after I go through all the amalgamations and the people are in there and it's the boom,
00:25:46it's the mic and all my kibbles and bits covered and wait and what's happening.
00:25:51Then I see the edit and they just completely took it out.
00:25:55And I was like, not so much for my vanity sake, but just my emotional peace of mind.
00:26:00Why you make me go through all of that?
00:26:02Yeah.
00:26:02And I was just like, okay, okay.
00:26:04You know, trying to steal myself, you know what I mean?
00:26:08And then to not use it.
00:26:10Like we just decided that we thought, you know, it would be better if.
00:26:13And I was like, guys, and I just feel like I'm to the point in my life now where if
00:26:18I do it,
00:26:19you better put it on there.
00:26:22That's right.
00:26:25Why did I eat grapefruit for a week?
00:26:28I've just been like, in my experiences have been like, um, the idea, like for me,
00:26:32it has to be very, um, and luckily I started, like when I started to do TV, I was like
00:26:3930s,
00:26:41right?
00:26:41So it's, it's been, it was a while.
00:26:43So I had, I got kind of stuck in my ways in a sense.
00:26:46You had the confidence.
00:26:48Um, but all I know is I had to know I could wake up in the morning and feel good
00:26:52about
00:26:52what I'd done the day before.
00:26:53That's the thing I would always think about.
00:26:54So I would remember having an argument with the director because I was like,
00:26:57this is, I know, I know you have it written here like this, but this is what you're getting.
00:27:01And I wrote it on the script that I handed to him.
00:27:03I said, you're not getting that.
00:27:04And you're not getting that.
00:27:05Are these sexual pieces or is that, is that what you mean?
00:27:08Love scenes?
00:27:09It was a love scene.
00:27:10It was a love scene.
00:27:10And I was like, these parts aren't being seen.
00:27:12And, um, he was like, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah.
00:27:16I was like, no, I'm really serious.
00:27:17It's really not happening.
00:27:19And I had to really get him there because he had to adjust his mind around it.
00:27:23And he's an awesome guy, but he had to adjust his mind around the fact that
00:27:26this was where I was going.
00:27:28And I realized this is what we, we have to do as women.
00:27:31We actually have to like get the minds of folks there sometimes that it's not,
00:27:35I know what your vision is, but this is,
00:27:37I will tell the story for her without that happening.
00:27:41There you go.
00:27:41Is it that like, they pull it down, keep pulling up.
00:27:44They pull it down, keep pulling up.
00:27:45I'm like, I know.
00:27:47I've done all types of tricks.
00:27:48Like I do a scene where I like had like, you know,
00:27:50I had like your skin color, like, um, things on my breasts.
00:27:53Right, right, right.
00:27:54I've done that before.
00:27:54I've done that before.
00:27:55Yes, you're back.
00:27:57Yeah, exactly.
00:27:58You know, just stuff like that.
00:28:00Yeah, where you're like, that's a top.
00:28:01I'm wearing a bandeau top.
00:28:02Exactly.
00:28:03I put like 17 of them on.
00:28:04Yeah, exactly.
00:28:05Like there's just nothing to use.
00:28:07Safety precautions.
00:28:08Christine, you, when you were filming the Good Fight pilot, Hillary was
00:28:13assumed, I think from, for most people on, on your set,
00:28:17she was going to be president.
00:28:18Well, it was sort of in the plot because I-
00:28:21Well, yes.
00:28:21One of the first scenes was me in the boardroom in a fabulous suit saying,
00:28:26there are no more glass ceilings to break, and I'm retiring, gentlemen.
00:28:29And the pilot was supposed to be about how I lost all my money.
00:28:33And that was the dramatic thrust of where they took the character.
00:28:37But then when we were filming the pilot, it was election night.
00:28:42And the camera was turning around on my close-ups when I checked the phone
00:28:46to find out who, who was the assumed winner of the election.
00:28:51So we changed, you know, we changed the pilot considerably.
00:28:55And you lose that line, that, that line.
00:28:57You lose the line about the glass ceiling.
00:28:59The glass ceiling.
00:28:59And then the very first scene of the pilot is
00:29:01my looking at the television set like this
00:29:05as I'm watching the inauguration of Donald Trump.
00:29:08And it's the actual, in real time.
00:29:09Yeah, and what's amazing is-
00:29:10How does that inform, yeah.
00:29:11I mean, how does that inform where you go?
00:29:13How does it inform where the show goes?
00:29:15And you terrified in that moment, both as a human and as a performer.
00:29:19Oh, it was really serendipitous because for seven years on The Good Wife,
00:29:22as I've said, this is, Diane Lockhart was always a liberal,
00:29:27Emily's List carrying card member, feminist.
00:29:31She was written that way.
00:29:32And she was written with a certain moral authority and passion for,
00:29:36for, you know, breaking the glass ceiling.
00:29:38And I, in my office, there was always a picture of Hillary Clinton and I.
00:29:42It was photoshopped, obviously.
00:29:43But from the time of the pilot.
00:29:45Wow, okay.
00:29:46So when we filmed one of the scenes in the pilot that, that, you know, we were still,
00:29:51it was before election night.
00:29:53I was packing the picture of Hillary Clinton and I in a box.
00:29:58And I remember saying to my director, well, you know, this woman is going to be the president.
00:30:03So maybe Diane is looking at that picture, thinking if she can do it, I can do it.
00:30:07And then a few days later, we were, you know, facing a new reality.
00:30:13But what was amazing is that because we took the character into a spin-off situation,
00:30:19but this was before Donald Trump had been elected.
00:30:23But it's provided fertile ground for a woman who is a, you know, passionate liberal feminist of a certain age,
00:30:32who was a Hillary supporter, to be the leading lady in a show where now she's a Trump resister.
00:30:38And it's very much, you know, the story is very much predicated.
00:30:41And her story is a lot about her inability to process what's going on in the country
00:30:48and what's happening to women and are we going backwards.
00:30:51So it's provided a lot of dramatic, raw material.
00:30:56Where did the real guys go?
00:30:58Why do we now have these snide little creatures with slick back hair and cologne?
00:31:06What happened to Paul Newman and Burt Lancaster?
00:31:09What happened to men who were slow to anger and responsible and who didn't cry like whiny little bitches?
00:31:18When did Trump and Kavanaugh become our idea of an aggrieved man,
00:31:23quivering lips, blaming everyone but themselves?
00:31:27But I am curious, I mean, I think you've talked about, certainly,
00:31:30I think on both of your most recent projects about sort of how you,
00:31:35they call, you know, you finish at the end of the day,
00:31:39and yet you have to sort of take these projects home with you and these characters home with you.
00:31:43I mean, you are living in the belly of the beast on this show.
00:31:46Yeah.
00:31:46So there isn't that sort of release at the end of the day.
00:31:48Cable news is like research for me.
00:31:50I have to keep my sense of outrage, which isn't hard.
00:31:53It's not difficult for me.
00:31:54But is there a release and what does it look like for you?
00:31:56It's called a vacation.
00:31:57And in two weeks, I'm taking it and I'm turning the phone off and I'm not looking at the news.
00:32:03Uh-huh.
00:32:03But that happened last year as well.
00:32:05You get, but I think people are collectively feeling this, not just actors.
00:32:09Right.
00:32:09I just happen to be in a show where we really are dealing with,
00:32:12they're fictional characters, but we are living in the moment, in this historical cultural moment.
00:32:18So yeah, it can be a little, get me out of this, get me out of here.
00:32:23Yeah.
00:32:23So with Escape at Dannemora, you shot in a prison.
00:32:27You were there surrounded by people who were living this life.
00:32:31How did that sort of inform you?
00:32:34How scary was that?
00:32:36It was very intense to feel the energy and see all the dynamics.
00:32:41I mean, even briefly at these prisons, because we shot at five different prisons.
00:32:45So what happens at the end of the day when you're driving back to wherever you're staying?
00:32:49Well, and also shooting up north, it was very cold.
00:32:52It's like winter.
00:32:53It's a gray town.
00:32:55The middle of the town is the prison, this huge wall.
00:32:58And there's a depressing quality.
00:33:01There's a tension going on everywhere, I think.
00:33:04And then gaining weight for that part and wanting her to look a certain way
00:33:09and feeling that was the right choice for me to make.
00:33:11But then going into the world and having people's reaction, it's like a scientific experiment.
00:33:17People would look at you like, oh, I used to love you.
00:33:21Yeah.
00:33:22Are you still acting?
00:33:23Oh my gosh.
00:33:24Or people just wouldn't really even.
00:33:27But more than that, the way people perceived me was as an invisible person.
00:33:31Like, oh, you're just kind of a matronly, dumpy, middle-aged lady.
00:33:37So, you just don't exist.
00:33:41Yeah, but better for you if they die.
00:33:46What does it, what does that mean?
00:33:51Wouldn't it be convenient to be the only person who lives to tell the story?
00:33:55Am I wrong?
00:33:58Well, yeah, you're, yeah, you're wrong.
00:34:01I mean, what, I mean, what does that mean?
00:34:05I'm uptight.
00:34:07I'm not comfortable.
00:34:08I take baths in the dark.
00:34:10I've always been modest since I was a little girl.
00:34:12Changed behind a chair.
00:34:14But I really wanted to do these love scenes.
00:34:17Like, I'm going to gain a bunch of weight and my boobs are going to be giant.
00:34:21And my stomach, and no, I'm not.
00:34:23Actually, this is the first love scene.
00:34:25I'm not wearing any body makeup.
00:34:27I don't care that you have real sunlight and it's high death or whatever, you know.
00:34:33This is all a nightmare, but not really.
00:34:36Because I really want to say, who's allowed to be sexual now in this culture?
00:34:40When are women allowed to be sexual?
00:34:42What body type do we have to have?
00:34:44And this lady is more comfortable with her sexuality than I am.
00:34:48And what does it feel like to be in a character that is willing to embrace that?
00:34:54I was going to say, when you talked about taking things home, I did the story of the
00:35:01Central Park Five and the new title is called When They See Us.
00:35:04And this is the first time I've ever done a project where they provided crisis counselors.
00:35:11After the end of the day, if there was a number you could call and somebody could talk to you,
00:35:17because the material was so heavy.
00:35:20And there were often times that the real boys, if you guys don't know about it,
00:35:24they had been accused of raping a woman in Central Park.
00:35:27But they were all babies and none of them did it.
00:35:29And they got convicted for something that they did not do.
00:35:32And it's their story.
00:35:33But there will be times sometimes when the real men now would be on set.
00:35:40So to come and meet you or talk to you or, you know,
00:35:45or just be there because it's their story being told.
00:35:48So you have that and you have the waiting material.
00:35:51And going home at the end of the day, listen, you know, seeing these children
00:35:58being dragged out this courtroom and as a mother feeling so powerless,
00:36:03I would get off that set and be like, I'm not going to make it.
00:36:06Bring the funny back.
00:36:08You know, because I, it was, I felt so full at the end of the day, you know,
00:36:13but you feel so driven to tell the story and you just get back up and you figure it out
00:36:19and you muscle through it because that has to be more important than how you feel.
00:36:23I'm side-ass.
00:36:25Can you put a little side extra on my commissary account?
00:36:29Mama, not, not much.
00:36:31Ain't a little bit helps 10, 20, just, just to add to my books.
00:36:40Boy, I ain't got nothing to give you.
00:36:46I ain't got it.
00:36:48But, um, I will work on it.
00:36:53I think, Michelle, with Fosse Vernon, I think one of the things that's sort of come up is that we're
00:36:58all so aware of Bob Fosse and his story. And I think we weren't as aware of Gwen's story.
00:37:06And I think that over the course of, of the creation of this show,
00:37:11her role became, I believe, a bigger piece of it and a story that was worth, worth telling.
00:37:17What were, A, why do you think it's the case that, that it, that we know the man's story?
00:37:22What does that say about our culture? And how important was it to explore both stories?
00:37:27Well, I think when the project was initially developed, it was just called Fosse. And that
00:37:31was about two years ago. And I think about, I don't know, a year into developing it or something,
00:37:36they realized that they actually wanted to tell both of their stories, which was after meeting
00:37:40their daughter, Nicole Fosse, who said that she would be involved in it, but she gave them so much
00:37:45information about who Gwen was that they said, oh, we should make this about two people instead.
00:37:50But I think it's, it's a lot of what we're talking about, you know, Gwen aged out,
00:37:54because she was a, because she was primarily a dancer. They say like a dancer dies two deaths,
00:38:01you know, when you actually die and then the day that you can't dance in the way that you used
00:38:04to be
00:38:04able to dance. And so she had that creative, she had that creative death. And so her story
00:38:12sort of goes more quietly. And if you know people who, if you're lucky enough to talk to people who
00:38:17knew
00:38:18her, of course it didn't, she continued to live a very full life and she taught and she choreographed
00:38:23and she recreated his work and she restaged his work. But in this creative burst that they were
00:38:30living in while she was still of an active dancer and actress, she was sort of written out of the
00:38:35story. Um, and the show attempts to rectify that. Kids in the jungle are being zipped into body bags
00:38:43on the evening news. Richard Nixon is our president. God help us. People aren't going to the movies to
00:38:49escape anymore. They're going to find something true. Well, I wish you'd been here from the start.
00:38:57He needs you. I just know how to speak Bob. It's my native tongue. You became a sort of a
00:39:05face of a
00:39:06movement and your experience, um, on all the money in the world became an experience. I mean,
00:39:13it wasn't just your story anymore. It became the world's story and you became someone in that,
00:39:17that Hollywood was, was outraged on your behalf. What did it feel like to be in the middle of that?
00:39:23It was interesting. So I went to DC recently to speak on pay equality and what, uh, yeah, it was,
00:39:29um,
00:39:30it was, it all happened very quickly. I'd become friends with, you know, when we went to the Golden
00:39:35Globes and we took these activists as our dates, we all became friendly and we all just sort of
00:39:40stayed in touch. And one of them reached out to me and she said, Hey, like, are you available in
00:39:43three days to come down and do this thing? And I said, like, for you, I guess I'll, I'll get
00:39:49rid of
00:39:49everything else I was supposed to do and I'll come. What is it? Like, what's going on? What am
00:39:53I doing? And she's like, just write a quick thing and you're just going to say a quick thing and
00:39:55then
00:39:56you'll go. And so I was like, okay, sure. Famous last words. Uh huh. Yeah. And it, it was a
00:40:00much
00:40:00bigger sort of, um, platform than I had even realized. And, uh, something that was interesting
00:40:06that was said to me there was that they were so grateful for me coming to tell this story because
00:40:10it's hard to see when you're talking about sort of $10 versus $14, people have a hard time hearing the
00:40:17difference. But when you use an example as extreme as mine, it sort of brings, it really brings the
00:40:23entire case to, to come home to rest. You can really, the larger example, like can speak to the other
00:40:29example. And I'm so moved, um, personally and professionally to have found my, my place in the
00:40:37conversation and my voice through the conversation and to feel like I've grown up inside of the
00:40:41conversation. And it's the thing that I'll, you know, uh, feel the closest to more than any work
00:40:47that I've ever done. Um, being able to, if I can just incrementally move the needle for other women,
00:40:52it's the thing. Sure. Have you seen the response to you change in the process as you take new jobs,
00:40:58as you walk into rooms? I don't know if everybody feels like this, but I just feel like the dynamic
00:41:03on
00:41:03sets has changed. I don't know if you guys experienced the same thing, but I feel, I feel like the
00:41:09workplace, um, they, I've said before, but I, they don't hug you anymore.
00:41:17Morning. Yeah. You don't get a morning grope. You get like a morning handshake. That's been my
00:41:25experience recently. Um, and I just feel like more space has opened up in, in the room, like in the
00:41:31actually creative process in the, when you're sort of in the figuring out of things, I feel like
00:41:37I'm heard in a different way, not even heard in a different way that the space has opened up for
00:41:42me, but to be able to be heard. Nobody will be surprised if a woman speaks out now on certain
00:41:49terms. Yeah. Yeah. And that, that has changed. Yeah. It's a corrective moment in the culture.
00:41:55There's no question. Sure. Certainly in our, in our industry, I'm definitely seeing also a lot more
00:42:01women on the set. Oh, I see women boom operators and DPs and I'm seeing, I'm working with a lot
00:42:09more
00:42:09women directors. And I think that space has given me a little more strength as an actor in myself.
00:42:15There will be times where creatively I really disagree with someone's choice for the first time
00:42:21in my life. And I'm not saying young actors should do this because you can learn a lot by trying
00:42:25to
00:42:26step outside your comfort zone. But I said to somebody, I'm not doing it like that.
00:42:31And because of this and this and this and this, and I had tons of reasons and the scene before
00:42:37and the scene after and this, and this is the choice that I'm in. It's a conscious choice.
00:42:41Don't want to hear, we'll shoot it both ways. Don't worry, we'll see.
00:42:45Yeah, you know what that means.
00:42:46You know what that means.
00:42:47You get your take, but I'm doing my take.
00:42:49It's so important because like we're in a society, so, so often as women in every field,
00:42:53I imagine that, you know, the idea of pleasing or being, you know, amenable and doing what you're
00:42:59told in a sense and getting along is so paramount. And so that breaking that down and being like,
00:43:05we're going to collaborate here. It's going to be about the fact that I'm here as a whole artist
00:43:10and we're collaborating. I'm not just obeying, but I mean, I collaborate. I don't not listen,
00:43:15but sometimes there are things that are very clear to me and I want that respected. I think
00:43:19that's, that's the place that we're going.
00:43:26When I first started acting, um, I got my first big break and it turned out I was pregnant.
00:43:34And in that project, I was supposed to get game raped. And I was like, you know what,
00:43:39even though the producers were cool and like, we don't think you'll be showing that much and it'll
00:43:43be all right. I was like, I've never had a baby before and I don't know how heavy that's going
00:43:47to be.
00:43:48Oh yeah. And I don't want to worry about growing up or keeping you guys waiting. And I don't want
00:43:53to worry about gaining weight or not. So I kind of walked away from like my big star chance
00:43:59and I didn't know if I'd ever really have another one. And after I had my son, I wasn't getting
00:44:06any
00:44:06work acting. And so I got, I got a job waitressing. I was supposed to start in a few days.
00:44:14I told my agent, Hey, I'm, I don't think I'm gonna be able to do this thing anymore. I need
00:44:18a full-time
00:44:18job. I have a baby at home, 20 years old. I need to take care of my kid. And you
00:44:23know, maybe that train
00:44:24has left the station, but I'm not looking back. But I got a job the night before I was supposed
00:44:30to
00:44:30start waitressing. So I was like, thank you. I got a job. They were like, yay. Cause they're all actors
00:44:36too. Right. All the other waiters. So they said, thank you. Um, but I was supposed to do this movie
00:44:43and there was a love scene and the concept was, or the whole really plot was this guy was videotaping
00:44:51women he was having sex with. And it was a hidden camera. Right. So yeah, I'm so happy. I'm a
00:44:59single
00:44:59mom. I'm broke. I don't know where I'm going to buy diapers. And now I've got an acting job again.
00:45:04And so I have this conversation with the director, like, what do you want to see or not see? Or
00:45:09what
00:45:09do you mean? I mean, how do you envision the scene? And you know, do you want to see breasts?
00:45:17Do you want
00:45:17to see? You know, what are you? I don't want to decide. I want to be free. I want you
00:45:23to sign a
00:45:23piece of paper saying you'll do whatever I want. And now I was breastfeeding and I felt really
00:45:30vulnerable and I was so broke. Oh, I had to say, you know what? I have to walk away from
00:45:38this job.
00:45:38Oh, and it sucks. Yeah, you did. This is the second time I'm having to kind of make a really
00:45:44important
00:45:46moral decision. And, you know, and dude, I'm like a broke single mom with a tiny baby at home.
00:45:55That's so powerful. But and you as a director can't make a decision, you know?
00:45:59The power of the word no. I mean, I think it really defines a path in a sense because you're
00:46:03really creating this is who I am. This is what I do. This is what I don't do. And I'm
00:46:07okay with that.
00:46:08And if you're not, that's okay. Yeah. You know, and it's such a powerful be able to be able to
00:46:11stand
00:46:12in your no. I think it's the most defining thing you can do. It's the most powerful word in this
00:46:17business because you show up to it so young and you want to say yes to everything. What? You want
00:46:22me to do jumping jack? I got it. Yes. I can do yes. Yes. You're saying yes to everything. And
00:46:26the
00:46:26minute you realize that and you tell somebody in a position of authority, no, they're taking it back
00:46:31because all they get is yeses, you know, all day. Yeah. I'm going to take a little bit of a
00:46:38left
00:46:38turn that I want to touch on some of the shows that you're a part of. You're on these shows
00:46:43where
00:46:43every episode could be your last. I don't know how much you know, how many questions, how many
00:46:48questions do you ask? As in if we're going to live and live and die? Yeah. On the show, you
00:46:54have the
00:46:55phone call. Yeah. Yeah. And are you just sitting there waiting for the phone call for the last 10
00:47:00years? No, no. It sort of depends. Like in the early days, we were kind of like, oh, okay, this
00:47:04is like a
00:47:05theme is killing everyone. We're like, again, like guaranteeing our mortgages. Yeah. Let's just
00:47:10get that straight. Um, no, but so you get a, you get a phone call from David and Dan, who
00:47:14are the
00:47:14creators of the show and everyone starts to really dread that phone call because if you're like, oh my
00:47:20God, they want to take me out for dinner. They want to take me out for dinner. And so then,
00:47:23you know,
00:47:23that's the, that's the kiss of death, literally. So nobody wants to go to dinner with them. No, literally,
00:47:27but then, but then every time they'd ask you out for dinner, they're like, we're not trying to kill you.
00:47:31We just want to get dinner. We just want to like talk about what you're, but, um, but for me
00:47:38on a very, um,
00:47:39real level, cause I started so green and was so incredibly, um, grateful to be employed. Um, I just
00:47:49assumed that every, you know, imposter syndrome times a million. Like I just assumed that every, every time I
00:47:55was going to read the script that I was going to be written off cause I was just crap and
00:47:58that they had
00:47:59enough and that this time was the last time. So I was every single season and genuinely until like
00:48:04the last season where you're like, oh wow, I did the whole, that's good. Nice. Nice. Do you ask
00:48:09questions? Do you ask where the words going and how much are you then told? They really don't give
00:48:16anything away. Does that help you? So yeah, I don't like to live, um, season, you know, in, in, in
00:48:22anything
00:48:22other than the season that I'm in because with Daenerys, she really has evolved so much and she's
00:48:28grown so much and every season, there's something new that happens. So it does feel like a new
00:48:33character. I'm very, very, very lucky in that sense to have lived with the character for 10 years,
00:48:37but she's, we've grown together. So I very, I have to just deal with what I'm dealing with in the
00:48:41moment. You are my queen. I don't know what else I can say. You can say nothing to anyone ever.
00:48:47Never, never tell them who you really are. Swear your brother and Samuel Tarly to secrecy and tell
00:48:53no one else or it will take on a life of its own and you won't be able to control
00:48:57it or what it does
00:48:58to people. No matter how many times you bend the knee, no matter what you swear. I think they very
00:49:05quickly started to write for each individual actor, but with me, they, I think they definitely, you start
00:49:11to see in the stage directions, like they're complete goofballs. So most of the stage directions are like
00:49:15ridiculous and very funny and like mention really rude things that I can't say.
00:49:20Like Daenerys farts, John looks up. Just like a lot of like in jokes about like, you know,
00:49:26and then Jon Snow's hair glistens in the sun, like we know it will, like the Pantene advert,
00:49:31all that kind of nonsense. But, but yeah, so they started writing for us very much. And I think they
00:49:37knew that whatever kind of stoic sort of cold sensibilities they might be writing down that I
00:49:45was going to try and bring a bit more warmth and a bit more kind of humanity to her where
00:49:50I possibly
00:49:50could. And that was always a conversation we were always having. And every season I would go off and
00:49:55do something else on hiatus, come back and be like, what's up? Yeah, she's going to sit like this.
00:49:58This is how she's going to. And every time they're like, that's really cute, but stand up straight
00:50:02and don't smile and you're not funny. And that's just, so you have to keep kind of bringing it back
00:50:08into like the, the, the parameters that I myself set up, but just set up real young. So yeah, perfect
00:50:16posture being one of them, which can be really annoying. And you obviously, you have the comic
00:50:20books. So there, there is source material there, but I am curious, what kinds of questions are you
00:50:24asking? Are you, and how is it informing you? Oh, I'm a pain in the ass. I'm a tall pain
00:50:28in the ass.
00:50:28What does that mean? Well, because I mean, I'm, I'm all up in it. Like, you know,
00:50:31I'll, I'll, I'm, I'm the one who like, when I really want to know, or I really want to
00:50:34collaborate, I really want to think about something with that mic. I, I have the conversation and we
00:50:37get on the phone, I chat it out. I'm like, so I think it's trying to do this, but what
00:50:40about,
00:50:41you know what I mean? I'm not pushing the whole story to another place, but I'm just, I'm trying
00:50:44to, in my head, in my pretentious mind, I'm, I'm trying to help them accomplish what they're
00:50:48proposing. How much of that is, is you are a playwright. You are somebody who is used to also being
00:50:54the
00:50:54person who's, who's crafting the story. Right. And I, and they're so awesome. Like I've, I've had such an
00:50:59amazing opportunity and experience working on this show for the last seven years. And, and they,
00:51:03it really is family. And so the, the showrunners have been, I've, I've worked with, um, of course,
00:51:08Scott Gimple and now, uh, Angela Kang and they're, you know, she was there also the entire time. And
00:51:13so it's, they're family to me, you know, so I can really talk to them and really hash things out
00:51:18and,
00:51:18and, and give ideas and thoughts and, and, um, and not necessarily ideas so much. I was about to say,
00:51:24yes. Thoughts. I mean, ideas are theirs. And sometimes they're like, yeah, discuss that with the
00:51:28writer. Like, you know, there's, there's, and I think as time goes on, as, as Amelia's saying,
00:51:31there's, there's, um, you get more and more able to do that. They understand you, you, you, you're
00:51:37living in her. She's living in you at this point. So we're, we're, we're totally, the collaboration
00:51:42becomes more and more, uh, full. You're my mom. You chose to be. Because you love me and I love
00:51:52you.
00:51:52I do. And loving someone means doing whatever it takes to keep them safe, right?
00:52:01But when did we stop loving Carol? And Maggie, Carol, the king?
00:52:11We, we didn't.
00:52:14I'm curious. Both of you have done huge franchises, film franchises and huge, these huge television
00:52:19franchises. How do the fans differ? The experience and the relationship with fans. How does that differ?
00:52:26Regardless of what movie I'm on, I only get asked about Game of Thrones.
00:52:30Only.
00:52:30Yeah. When you're on Star Wars and Star Wars are like, that's not okay. And I'm like, I'm not,
00:52:35I'm not, I'm not mentioning it. I didn't say anything about Dragon's Dragons. But, um, but yeah,
00:52:39it can be, uh, Game of Thrones fans are very, um, in the, it's a, it's a, it's a beast
00:52:44into,
00:52:45there's, and I'm, and I'm, and I am indebted to them and bonded with them in a way that I
00:52:52will net,
00:52:52no other job I ever do will touch that. Well, I don't know, I don't know how you move on
00:52:56from
00:52:56that. People. People. I like that. What about your experience? You've got the Marvel audience,
00:53:01you've got the Black Panther, I mean, all these different things. Um, Okoye is, um, she's,
00:53:07she's leveling with, with Michonne, I think. It's, it's definitely like, you know, things,
00:53:10you know, when you're asked to sign things, it's kind of. Oh yeah. Which one is it? It's,
00:53:13it's, it's, they're kind of, they're kind of, I never, it's kind of a 50, 60. That's a pretty cool
00:53:17place to be. Um, yeah. Um, sometimes one tops the other. You just, I, I never know. It's
00:53:22unpredictable. And you can't see, even know who's coming and like, oh, I think you're going to be.
00:53:25No, no. Sometimes they have both, you know? Yeah. Um, Amelia, you wrote recently a wildly powerful,
00:53:36devastating piece, um, an essay about sort of what you were going through that the world didn't know
00:53:41you were going through. Um, I'm curious, what got you to the place where you said,
00:53:48I'm willing to share, you know, I'm ready to share this with the world? Yeah. Yeah,
00:53:51like two weeks before I did, I was like, I'm not ready to share this with the world. Why did
00:53:54you
00:53:55decide you were ready? Um, cause I've been working on a charity for about five years. Uh-huh. So I,
00:54:01um, basically with the first, so I had two brain hemorrhages, um, with the first one, I, uh, it started
00:54:06off as like, I want to make a, um, a sofa for the family room. Cause every time my parents
00:54:10would come in
00:54:11from, from like chilling in the room, which obviously they ended up spending night and day
00:54:15in, they'd all come in like, oh, like they really hurt themselves or like got a crick in their neck
00:54:20and I'm like, we need to get a new sofa in there. We need to get a new, a new
00:54:23couch in there. And it
00:54:24started as that. And then like, how can we build it? How can we build it? And then it became
00:54:26a kind
00:54:27of mission. Uh, and it just took me a really long time to narrow down my point of focus as
00:54:32to what I
00:54:32felt like I could do to help because, um, surviving the first one, anyone who's survived anything that's,
00:54:38um, where you, you know, you should have died and you feel it's sort of responsibility. At least I do.
00:54:45And so in starting this, in, in building this charity that I've been building for a while and in, and
00:54:50in
00:54:50trying to figure out what it is, I went through a phase where I was having a tough time with
00:54:56doing lots
00:54:57of press. And I don't know if you guys have felt that at any point in your life where you
00:55:00just feel, I, I don't
00:55:02think I can be seen anymore. I'm, I, I'm drowning in this. I feel anxiety and it's, and it's too
00:55:09much
00:55:09and I can't handle it. And in that moment, I was like, I can't tell my story. And we were
00:55:13going to
00:55:14do this huge partnership with HBO, Richard Plepler, the dream boat that he is, was going to do so much.
00:55:19It was going to be amazing. And then suddenly I was like, ah, I can't, it's way too much. I
00:55:24can't,
00:55:24I'm not ready for that. I don't feel safe. I don't feel safe in this environment when people are like,
00:55:28Hey, talk about your tits. And you're like, no, I'm not going to, I'm not going to give that to
00:55:32you. Cause this is my experience and I want to help people. I don't want to make anything
00:55:36sensational. I don't want anyone to turn around and be like, Oh, another celebrity sob story.
00:55:40Like right. Um, and so I really wanted to keep the integrity of it. And then it took some time
00:55:46and then we finished the show and all of these things happened. And then one day I woke up and
00:55:50was
00:55:50just like, I have to, I have to say this cause I can't help people if I don't, um, you
00:55:55know, like, Oh,
00:55:56so you're starting a brain injury charity. Why? I don't know. It just sounds like a good idea.
00:56:00Like it seemed like an area that was, I just was intrigued. How much of, of that experience
00:56:05sort of informed how you not only went through life, but also how you approached the character
00:56:11and the strength that it required. I mean, you talk about drinking more. No, I've been lying for a
00:56:15number of years. Every time anyone's like, where do you get your strength from? I'm like, I do.
00:56:19Heavens. No, I didn't know I did. Really idyllic childhood. Um, yeah. So she, she and I grew together,
00:56:25but she absolutely, it's corny as hell, but she saved my life because the, um, the, the main
00:56:33things that happen after you've had a brain injury universally, obviously paralysis and,
00:56:37and all of that aside is, um, you have fatigue, which is, it sounds like a fancy way of saying
00:56:44you're tired and it's not, it's debilitating to the point of just, it's just so demoralizing,
00:56:50especially as a young person when you're like, what? Right. Why can I not get off the sofa?
00:56:56This is ridiculous. I feel lazy. I feel all these things. Um, and so feeling that and feeling
00:57:02again, when you've had, especially with the second one, because the first one was non-invasive.
00:57:06So they went up through, through a major artery in my groin and went up through my brain and fixed
00:57:12it that way. But the second one, they, it went wrong in surgery. So they had to, it was preventative
00:57:16surgery that went wrong. So they had to crack my head open and, um, and do it that way. And
00:57:21when
00:57:21you have a brain trauma, I can't, it's, you're just, you know, like if you broke your leg, you're
00:57:26like, Hey, watch the leg. It's broken. This is a fragile thing right here. When it's your, first of
00:57:32all, when it's just on a physical level, your, your skull, your face, I kept hitting my head,
00:57:38which is really annoying, but you get very like, and then as soon as you see that that is something
00:57:45you
00:57:45want to be protecting, you can't look someone in the eye because it's somehow it brings up shame.
00:57:51I don't know how, but it is such a, um, you just get so protective and so scared and you
00:57:58think so
00:57:58little of yourself because you're constantly not wanting to anyone to be anywhere near you.
00:58:03And that can be just, you know, people who, who do not get the help and do not have the
00:58:08mother of
00:58:09dragons to walk, the shoes to walk into to kind of help you get out of it. Those, um, those
00:58:13are the
00:58:13people I speak to that I'm speaking to the most with this charity for, for, um, aftercare. But for
00:58:19me, I was, I was able to then get up and the show must go on. And so you get
00:58:24back in those shoes and
00:58:24then, you know, Khaleesi's like killing all the masters. She's like speaking to 300 people in a
00:58:30language that is not real. She's, um, you know, literally killing people with flames, um, you know,
00:58:37having sex with Kit Harington, all sorts. And it just, um, it just literally forced me
00:58:43awake again and forced me to look someone in the eye because I had to.
00:58:47I love that.
00:58:47And that kind of.
00:58:48Wonderful that can be.
00:58:49Yeah. So that was, so that's kind of, it's been, um, an unbelievable blessing in a really,
00:58:55really crazy way. I mean, I'm so lucky that I have all of my cognitive skills and I've just
00:58:59missed, I've just, there's a bit of my brain that's died and we don't know what it is. And it's
00:59:03probably my tasty one. I want to touch on the act, uh, really quickly. Um, I believe I heard
00:59:08you say this is one where your children said, Ooh, don't, don't take this, uh, don't take
00:59:13this role. Um, why and what made you say, I got to do this?
00:59:17Well, it's based on this story, uh, of Dee Dee and Gypsy Blanchard and Dee Dee has
00:59:23Munchausen by proxy. So she's having her daughter treated for all these medical conditions she doesn't
00:59:29have. So I told my kids, Oh, you know, I might do this story.
00:59:33It's about Dee Dee and Gypsy Blanchard and they'd both seen the documentary. No, don't
00:59:37do it. Mom, don't do it, please. I'm like, you guys know I'm an actor. I'm not the kind
00:59:43of person who comes home like, take your medicine.
00:59:49They're like, it's just so scary. And it is because I think you can build a lot to give
00:59:56birth. Your teeth go, your eyes get worse. It's physically difficult and nature's built
01:00:02it so that you would die for your child and you would do anything to avoid their pain.
01:00:07And that's natural. And when a parent is the opposite or would inflict pain on their child,
01:00:14it feels like such a perversion of our natural self. Sure. And that's, that was weird. I mean,
01:00:21I was very clear with myself, like you are leaving Dee Dee at work every day, like everything about her.
01:00:31Girls wear makeup, mom. You're not like other girls.
01:00:38Oh, sweet pea. I know sometimes you want to be like everybody else, but you know what?
01:00:47I like you special. We're going to end on some questions that I'm hoping everyone can answer
01:00:54and we're going to move as quickly on this. But the first one is hoping you guys can complete
01:01:01this sentence. I act because... Why do you do this? What drives you to do this?
01:01:08It just came to me early on. My grandmother and my grandparents were Polish actors in Buffalo at the
01:01:16Polish American Theater. So I grew up around flamboyant personalities and music and expressivity.
01:01:25And it seemed like a wonderful playground. And I still feel that way. I still feel that's where my
01:01:31playful self, my open self. Cause I think like a lot of actors, I think I'm naturally shy,
01:01:38but I play characters that are not shy. And, and that's very, it's been very liberating.
01:01:44I've loved the journeys. My characters have taken me on. I've never be that much.
01:01:49I never presumed.
01:01:50We're twins. We're shy too.
01:01:51Can y'all still?
01:01:52Yeah.
01:01:53Totally.
01:01:57Well, my, my siblings say they're all older than me that, you know, in the backyard where I grew
01:02:02up in Zimbabwe, I would walk around imitating Alexis Colby. So they said, either she's crazy
01:02:06or she's an actor, maybe both. So, but I think the, the interesting thing is I'm actually an
01:02:15interesting moment for that question because I was just being asked that by some of my more,
01:02:19more acting bosses because I'm, I'm, I'm creating a show right now and I have a team of writers
01:02:26and I step in this room and I'm like, well, it's a mini series, uh, to be specific.
01:02:30It's still a show.
01:02:31And yeah, mini show, um, and, and it's like, they're going to be like, okay,
01:02:38you ain't never done this before.
01:02:41I'm like, no, but, um, yeah, thankfully I have amazing mentors and teachers. I have a bat phone
01:02:45named Scott, Scott Gimple and, um, you know, and I've been wanting to do this for a long
01:02:49time. And so it's, it's such an interesting moment because I just got asked that like,
01:02:53so which one do you like better? You know, um, you know, sometimes I, I don't because when I,
01:02:59as I created, um, well created, as I was growing up in Zimbabwe, I was in part of like a
01:03:05storytelling
01:03:05type process where you just sort of created and you acted and you created and you acted and they
01:03:09kind of went back and forth. You never kind of, they were never separate. So as I grew into the
01:03:15field,
01:03:15they, they separated, they had to, um, uh, but, uh, you know, they just, they both complement each
01:03:22other to, in, in my head though. I do look forward to rolling out of bed and putting on a
01:03:27skull cap
01:03:28and sitting on set with a big pair of things and just mumbling stuff in someone's ear and not going
01:03:33into hair makeup. But I love to act. For the record, I love to act. I love it. But, um,
01:03:38there,
01:03:38I do look forward to the other side of it. It's gonna be so delicious. I'm telling you.
01:03:43All right, this is hopefully a fun one. The last time I fan, present company excluded,
01:03:48the last time I fangirled on somebody was? Well, let me just say, I don't know how you can
01:03:55ever not fangirl over Oprah. I just don't know how you cannot. I don't know. And, and I got a
01:04:01call
01:04:01from her office. I just recently got a star on the Hollywood Walk of Fame. And then, oh, thank y
01:04:06'all.
01:04:06Yeah. And then she, um, texts me after she saw when they see us. And I was walking around all
01:04:15day
01:04:16with my phone. I'm just gonna reread that. What does Oprah text say? Girl! Bravo! With a whole
01:04:24moment. Hey, Oprah, you was clapping emojis. Wow. Of course she does. She said strung down
01:04:29realness. Yes. And then the hand clap. I was like, come on, Auntie O. That's awesome. That's good.
01:04:36That's really good. I love it. What about you guys? Lin-Manuel Miranda. Yeah? Yeah. Who's
01:04:41a producer on your show. Yeah, which is uncomfortable for him. Because the first time I ever met, I,
01:04:47you know, Hamilton's like a really big deal in our household. And, and we were seated across from each
01:04:51other at something. And when I saw it was him, I just screamed. And I asked for pictures and,
01:04:57like, videos. And if he could, like, come over into, like, another area with me where it was quieter.
01:05:02And if he could, like, call. It just, like, came over me. I didn't know. It just was so, well,
01:05:06you can get something for, like, kids in your life. You're like, I'm sorry. I, like, I have,
01:05:11but I lose, like, all decorum. I'm like, I need this for, like, this 12-year-old and this 12
01:05:16-year-old.
01:05:18So, yeah. But I've, I've, I've settled. I've settled now. I love it. What did anyone else have
01:05:24one? Oh, I had one just the other day. I did the Today Show and I found out that Sting
01:05:28was in the
01:05:28green room. Oh. Yeah. He was going to be the next guest after me. And I turned into, like, a
01:05:35teenager.
01:05:36I mean, he's just so hot. And I, and I approached him in the green room feeling, I'm like, hi,
01:05:42my name is
01:05:42Christine. I'm just such a fan. I felt so stupid, but it was real. It's wonderful when you kind of
01:05:49get to that. Absolutely. Yeah. Yeah, you still get to be that sort of little girl inside. Yeah.
01:05:54Sure. Sexy. Oh, my God. I recently met Glenn Close and just, and there were photographers present
01:05:59for all of my, like, oh, I don't know how to, oh, my God. I love her so much. And
01:06:04the wife, like, blew me
01:06:05away. And I just think she's magnificent. And then, obviously, in real life, she was completely magnificent
01:06:10and just wonderful and brilliant. And yeah. I love it. Yeah. Do you guys have one?
01:06:14And I would say, oh, there have been so many lately, but I would, I would say Cicely Tyson.
01:06:20Oh, my God. Meeting her. I've met her a few times now,
01:06:23but every single time it's like. Like drool coming out of your mouth.
01:06:26Yeah, I'll let you know a little something. I have a condo in Atlanta and the only thing on the
01:06:30wall
01:06:31is just a massive picture of her. And like, you know, black and white. And it's just like when she
01:06:36was,
01:06:36you know, she was like, you know, maybe she was, she was middle-aged. And I think there's something
01:06:40so beautiful about that time. Like, you know, it's like the idea that that's something we're
01:06:45supposed to be frightened of or the longevity idea in this industry is so like, there is none for
01:06:50women. That idea that gets fed to us and just looking at her every day reminds me that, you know,
01:06:56my journey as an artist is long. Love that. The last one.
01:06:59Love that. I have shivers from that. I did just go to Coachella.
01:07:05I love it. Yeah, big for my daughter. I brought her. But I saw Charlotte Gainsbourg there.
01:07:15And, and then afterwards I was watching this other band and then she was standing in front of me.
01:07:24I just watched you. I was just at your show. Wow. So that was cool. But also what popped in
01:07:31my mind,
01:07:32there's been amazing actors and directors, but politicians, Maxine Waters, hugging Maxine Waters
01:07:39was very exciting. Sure.
01:07:41To meet with Carolyn Maloney, Jackie Spears,
01:07:44powerful women who are doing things that I'm so grateful for. I mean, that, that really gets me
01:07:51excited. It's a great way to end. Thank you guys all for being here. Thank you.
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