00:07My guest on 12 Minutes With
00:09is British Guyanese businesswoman
00:11and campaigner Gina Miller.
00:13She made headlines after she successfully
00:15challenged the British government in two
00:17constitutional landmark rulings
00:19after the Brexit vote in 2016
00:21and later in 2019.
00:23Thank you for joining us Gina Miller.
00:25To begin with, can you remind our viewers
00:27what legal action you took against the
00:29British government over Brexit following
00:31the June 2016 referendum
00:33and can you distinguish for our audiences
00:35between your personal stance against
00:37Brexit and the legal basis
00:39for these cases?
00:40Yes, lovely to join you. My personal
00:43opinion then and remains that we should
00:45have stayed in the EU
00:46but that is completely separate from
00:49the process, the legal process and
00:51the constitutional requirements.
00:52My case is the first against Miller
00:55one against Mrs May was because
00:57she was trying to trigger
00:59Article 50 to leave the European
01:01Union to begin that process
01:02by bypassing Parliament and on the
01:05second occasion exactly the same
01:07Boris Johnson, the Prime Minister
01:09was going to try and close down
01:11Parliament, what we call
01:12prorogation, for a long period of time
01:14which again would have meant that
01:16Parliament would have no say
01:17and we would crash out with a no deal
01:19both of which are Prime Ministers
01:21putting themselves above the law.
01:23So irrespective of my
01:24personal support for
01:26remaining, this was very much
01:28more about the process and ensuring
01:30the Prime Ministers could not put
01:32themselves above the law
01:33because we have, ironically
01:35if you remember, everyone talking
01:36about parliamentary sovereignty
01:38it was about defending parliamentary
01:40sovereignty.
01:42And 10 years on from the referendum
01:43can you paint a picture of where
01:46it's left the country both
01:47economically and politically?
01:49It's been a decade of decline
01:52unfortunately there was no plan
01:54which is always something I
01:56suspected that the
01:58Brexiteers, the Leavers, had no plan
02:00for what would happen if they had
02:01won and that has unfortunately
02:03played out in the fact that there
02:05is a confirmation that our economy
02:07has been damaged by around
02:09four to five, actually now most
02:11economists say it's about five
02:12percent GDP.
02:14We have a real lack of foreign
02:16investment into the UK, I mean
02:18there is almost non-existent
02:19foreign investment in the UK.
02:21We have instability in our
02:23politics, we have now
02:24instead of the traditional
02:26two-party systems, we very much
02:28now have a five-party system
02:29and the country has become
02:31more divided.
02:33I mean Brexit, the whole
02:34referendum, the dishonesty
02:35and the way the division that
02:38was sown has damaged our
02:39country so it is now a place
02:42that is a very much a populist
02:43country.
02:44So my view now is about what
02:47happens for the next 10 years so we
02:48have to look forwards and I'm
02:50hoping for a leader now that our
02:53Prime Minister has resigned, I'm
02:56hoping that a new leader of the
02:57Labour Party has a plan and a
02:59strategy and can give some
03:00clarity on the direction of travel
03:03on our relationship with Europe
03:05from the point of view of our
03:07economy, prosperity, defence which is
03:09so important and also tackling the
03:12big issues such as AI and the
03:14environment.
03:15And before we look forward, just to
03:17finish looking backwards, from your
03:19perspective, what are some of the
03:20biggest lies about Brexit that never
03:22came true and in contrast have any
03:24promises?
03:27The biggest lie was about Turkey
03:29joining.
03:29Those posters that leave remained
03:31that we would have hundreds of
03:32thousands of people coming across
03:34our border were, I mean they were
03:36fabricated lies and they were
03:37images that were generated that were
03:39not true.
03:40The idea that leaving the EU would
03:42suddenly solve all our domestic
03:45issues, it was just an excuse, a
03:47cowardly excuse for putting off the
03:50real hard work that needs to be done
03:52when it comes to the domestic issues
03:54that we had and were deepened after
03:56the global financial crisis.
03:58The lies on that it would end
04:01immigration, all it's done and we can
04:02see that, you know, we've had the
04:04highest levels of legal migration
04:07post-Brexit than we have ever had,
04:09you know, close to, well, depending
04:12on your figure, somewhere between
04:13600,000 and a million people that are
04:16ex-EU.
04:16So the idea when I was going around
04:18the country that was being sold by
04:20Brexiters is leave the EU, stop our
04:24migration problems.
04:25It was a lie.
04:26And then the 350 million that we would
04:28save for the NHS was a lie.
04:30There were so many of them.
04:33Do you believe that the Labour
04:34government has made positive strides
04:36when it comes to mending its
04:37relationship with the EU and do you
04:39think that Starmer's resignation will
04:41weaken ties or be an opportunity to
04:43strengthen them further?
04:45I have been very disappointed that
04:48Prime Minister Starmer was much not
04:50clearer on his, what he called about
04:52his realigning.
04:53I don't understand the not agreeing to
04:55a youth mobility scheme when we have
04:57one with 13 other countries and
04:59restoring that opportunity for our
05:01young people.
05:02the idea of not pursuing a much closer
05:05relationship in a formal way.
05:07To my mind, the door is open on a
05:09Swiss type agreement and I think that's
05:11something we should be very clear about.
05:13And I think rather than cherry picking
05:15here, there and everywhere in tiny
05:17little steps, I'm hoping the opportunity
05:20is there for the new leader, a new leader
05:22to be much bolder and talk about
05:24alignment.
05:25As I said, from my personal point of view,
05:27I think what is achievable before the
05:29next general election because we've got
05:30reform, you know, lurking over our
05:33British politics and possibly a reform
05:35type government after the next
05:37general election, that to me is Swiss
05:39style agreement.
05:40We have got to do something like that
05:42to make sure that the door is kept open
05:44to one day perhaps rejoining because
05:46that's what I'd like to see.
05:47But I don't think we have the political
05:49bandwidth in either Europe or the UK to
05:52be talking about that right now.
05:53And how positively do you feel about
05:55the upcoming UK EU reset talks?
05:58From your perspective, what's lacking
06:01in these talks of the EU, both in terms
06:03of political will and concrete measures?
06:06I think on our side, it is that the red
06:09lines are nonsensical to me, such as, as
06:11I said, I mentioned the youth mobility
06:13scheme.
06:14I think it's great that we're going to
06:15have some of the changes when it comes
06:17to agriculture and reducing of some of
06:20the red tape, but it's not enough.
06:22Our businesses are on the floor.
06:23You know, we need much more.
06:25We need a relationship that actually
06:28reverses some of the damage when it
06:29comes to the paperwork, the burden on
06:31businesses that will attract foreign
06:34investment and will actually stop the
06:36drift towards lower regulation where
06:38too many of our politicians on the right
06:40want us to go to.
06:41So I think it's really important that we
06:43have those closer relationships.
06:45And do you believe that there's a chance
06:46that Brexit could ever be reversed?
06:49And if not, why?
06:50And if so, in what time frame?
06:53I think the process, you know, we have
06:55this is not about surrender when I say
06:57that it's not rejoining maybe some time
07:00in the future.
07:00It's about the reality of where we are.
07:03The reality is that there are other
07:04people ahead of the queue.
07:05Why should we be given special
07:06treatment?
07:07And there are other member states who
07:09are ahead of other countries ahead of
07:10us.
07:11Secondly, we would have to have, I think,
07:14much more of the population in the UK
07:16wanting it.
07:17The figures are for rejoined, but I don't
07:19believe that there is enough of the
07:21population.
07:22It is not a big enough gap yet.
07:25And also the time.
07:26We are facing so many crises geopolitically
07:29in the world that I don't think we have a
07:32time for our parliaments, both in the EU and
07:36the UK, to be occupied with negotiating a
07:39rejoining deal.
07:40It would take out all the energy that's
07:42needed elsewhere.
07:43And you decided to take the government to
07:44court over its handling of Brexit, which
07:47made you kind of public enemy number one
07:49for Brexiteers.
07:51But from your perspective, would you say
07:53there's a culture of political apathy in
07:55the UK compared to European neighbours?
07:58The one positive, if there is one positive
08:01from Brexit, is that as a country, ordinary
08:05people in the street didn't really talk about
08:06politics as they do in Europe, as you do in
08:08your European member states.
08:10Now people are much more engaged.
08:12And that's why we are seeing so many of the
08:14new parties that are coming up and, you
08:17know, Greens party doing so well, the new
08:19extreme right party restore.
08:22People are more engaged.
08:23And that is a positive because actually a
08:25healthy democracy requires people to be
08:26more engaged.
08:27That said, it is also very divisive politics.
08:31So, you know, there's good and bad to that.
08:33But I think the problem is that we don't
08:37have politicians with courage.
08:39We do not have politicians that are spelling
08:42out the difficulties of where we are, not
08:44just to do with Europe, because there are so
08:46many economic and domestic problems that we
08:49have in the UK.
08:51You know, they're not sort of telling people
08:55honest truth about where we are and the hard
08:57choices we need to make to get to a better
09:00place.
09:00And that includes increasing, you know, we
09:04can't do very much if we don't have money in
09:06the coffers.
09:07One of the things we need to do is to ensure
09:10that we have, we can increase our GDP and
09:12investment from abroad and the markets and
09:15investors, if there was a plan that they could
09:18see, not just people in the UK, that sense of
09:22stability and direction of travel would actually
09:26increase the confidence that people have.
09:29And at the moment, very few people, be it
09:31businesses, investors and the public themselves,
09:34have confidence in our politicians.
09:36And you faced a huge torrent of online abuse
09:38when you took the government to court over
09:40Brexit and you, this led you to be protected by
09:43an anti-terrorism brigade.
09:45How dangerous has it been for you to be an
09:47outspoken critic of Brexit?
09:49And do you believe that there's still a risk in
09:51being this outspoken today?
09:54Unfortunately, you know, it came with death threats
09:57and, you know, the violent people went to prison
09:59because of the death threats against me.
10:02It was not something I ever envisaged.
10:04I mean, I knew there would be a backlash, but I
10:06didn't think it would be of such a violent nature
10:09and such an abusive nature.
10:11And I'm afraid as the anniversary, the 10th
10:14anniversary now means it, because for a long
10:16time, nobody, the B word was not mentioned by
10:19politicians.
10:20It was, they were too frightened to mention it.
10:22Now with the anniversary this week, since last
10:25week, they have done and the abuse has increased
10:27that I've been receiving.
10:29And oddly enough, I'm getting it from both sides
10:31this time.
10:31I'm getting it from the leavers because they're
10:34saying, oh, she's going to try it.
10:35You know, their hatred hasn't gone away.
10:38And I'm afraid the Reform and Restore Party,
10:41because they are whipping up all the anti-migrants
10:44and the divisions in our country and the anti-EU
10:47settlement sentiment, then that I get a backlash
10:50that it has a consequence for me.
10:52But also the Remainers are not happy with me either
10:55because they think we could just rejoin tomorrow.
10:57So I take a pragmatic line and I believe we have to
11:04look at process and we have to be honest about what
11:07that process means to people.
11:08And that tends to be a very unpopular place to be
11:13from either side.
11:14But I think it's important that someone fills that gap.
11:17And I will carry on doing that because we cannot get to a
11:20better place until we talk about what is needed.
11:23And I have to say, whatever happens next cannot be
11:28sneaked through the back door.
11:29And that's one of the things I think was wrong that the
11:32Prime Minister Starmer was talking about.
11:35It was a change that would be done through what's called
11:37secondary legislation so it wouldn't be debated in Parliament.
11:40As I said, and I defended the parliamentary sovereignty,
11:44I think any realignment and changes that come in the future
11:46need to be transparent and in the open and debated
11:50by Parliament.
11:51It can't be through the back door.
11:53Thank you very much Gina Miller for joining us on Euronews.
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