- 22 hours ago
Adrian Darbyshire interviews Jamie Baldwin from Orsted about the Mooir Vannin Offshore Wind Farm.
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00:01So we're with Jamie Baldwin, Project Director with Orsted and we're here to
00:07talk about the Moorvanning offshore wind farm. Obviously it's been a subject
00:13that's been focused for a lot of debate recently, it's going through an
00:18examination process where the examining body will be ultimately making a
00:24recommendation to the Council of Ministers on whether to grant a licence to Orsted.
00:31Do you think you're winning the public debate on the merits of an offshore wind farm?
00:39Sure, winning is a yeah interesting term because we will keep going on maybe
00:45we're about half time through the examination. What I would say is I
00:52think there's clearly a lot of debate it's a it's a big decision for the
00:56island we recognize that and this is a six-month process and it's an open public
01:03transparent process as it should be. I think we have seen quite a lot of
01:09people particularly those who would have views from across the Irish Sea from the
01:16East Coast express their views quite publicly that certainly at the public
01:20meetings. We've also had a number I've had plenty of conversations with people
01:26who are more positive about the project and really can see the economic
01:30opportunity for the island so and I think the examiner's mentioned that in the
01:34last set of hearings there's a balance really around that economic
01:38opportunity in its entirety to the island versus the you know the significant
01:44change to particularly the kind of visual impact so I think that's the heart of
01:51this matter and I would say that any infrastructure project often has these
01:56similar kind of planning balance and that is what the examiners are doing
01:59they're seeking to interrogate ourselves but also yes other stakeholders which
02:04rightly so and to to to come up with a I guess a conclusion a recommendation
02:10based on that that planning balance. And the public are entitled to ask questions
02:16because it's important. It's important absolutely it's a big it's a big
02:20development both as I say as a positive development but also one that will have
02:26a change particularly as I say to the visual impact what what I would say is that
02:31change is happening already we're seeing that in the Irish Sea there's a project that
02:38was consented right on the the border of the territorial waters that's that
02:43was a UK project it's called a Morgan offshore wind farm it's actually slightly
02:47bigger turbines than the ones we currently have in our in our planet so what I
02:53would say this change is happening around the island as we see it today this
02:58week we've got the global offshore wind conference in actually in
03:01Manchester going on today and yesterday so this is happening around the UK
03:06and around the world I think this is the opportunity this is the only opportunity
03:12for offshore wind that's currently on the table and yeah it needs to be weighed up
03:17it's absolutely right the public have concerns and express their views both ways on it.
03:22Are you concerned about misinformation that might be brought out there?
03:26I think yes we are certainly alive to that and I think it's important we need to to correct that
03:36where where it's needed but also as you will know everything is not black or white so you can say
03:41the
03:42visual impact for instance is a subjective view we've had people we had someone stand up at the first
03:47public meeting say I actually think it's a positive view it shows that we're
03:53generally we're taking control of our energy we're benefiting as an islands but I do
03:58think it is subjective and therefore misinformation whether we've also been
04:05kind of accused as abusing could rather than would and that's really reflection
04:09of where we're at that we don't make we're not the decision makers on this
04:13project we're not the decision makers on something we'll come on to around
04:17power to the island so we're in a slightly tricky situation I do think it's
04:22important that people consider that we we've done this before Orsted have done
04:28this before with it with a leading global developer for offshore wind still in
04:34across the world so this isn't new to us it's not new going through the
04:38examination process it is new to the island and certainly some of the things we
04:42we're seeing being said and and reflected on you and it's very close to the
04:49island as in close to the hearts but also close physically close so it's
04:53totally understandable that people should raise questions I do think it's
04:58our job to correct that misinformation and to use to do that through the
05:03examination process that is the open and transparent process that we're running
05:08now the examination process of two public meetings so far number of themes have
05:18kind of dominated these meetings and I wonder where we can just go through those
05:22one by one the first of those is the size of the turbines that people seem quite
05:30concerned at the height of these things yeah comparisons with the Eiffel Tower and such
05:35like why are they so big and and is there a possibility that actually they won't be as big as
05:43your outline plans yeah sure yeah well we have put forward what we call the maximum design
05:49scenario that's both in terms of the number of turbines but also that the kind of height and the size
05:55of the for instance the rotor diameter so yes there is some built-in
05:59kind of future proofing there that's pretty normal as I mentioned I mentioned
06:04earlier the Morgan project just on the right up against the Manx territorial sea
06:10border that's that's I think 362 meters tip height other projects a bit closer to
06:17coast that have been consented recently such as Rampion 2 on the south coast is
06:21around 330 340 meters as is Ali Moore on the north coast of Wales so it's quite
06:29normal to take this approach but I do absolutely recognize these that these
06:32are huge structures they and that is a reflection really of where I guess the
06:38industry is a globally has gone what I can say is at the moment what we what we're
06:43currently constructing for instance we're constructing an offshore wind farm in the
06:47North Sea called Hornsea 3 they are looking at 15 megawatt turbines and
06:53they're around 270 meters to tip height and I think it's also important to be
06:58clear we're talking about the tip height the maximum tip height up to 350 meters in
07:04case and the actual hub height is is obviously quite a bit lower than that and
07:12typically at the moment they're being constructed around 200 200 meters the hub
07:16height and then tip height as I say is around 270 meters so you've already reduced the
07:21height once yeah is it feasible then and and would it actually make some sort of
07:27sense to to offset some of the criticism by by reducing it still further I think
07:33we are looking yeah we are looking at that that option of reducing it but it
07:38isn't going to be the dramatic reduction it's probably again if we are able to get
07:43that kind of certainty from a technical perspective and I say the reason why
07:47we're kind of building in some future proof is is because we don't know at this
07:52stage exactly when we would be procuring those turbidges typically I'll be three
07:57four five years time from from now and obviously we're still yes it's got
08:02nothing to do with the sort of unique location of the the item and only bigger
08:07turbine no that's right as I say we're about 270 meters to tip at the moment
08:15that's what's being currently constructed we're doing that on Haunty 3 most
08:18consented projects because there is a lag between when you get your consent and
08:22the way you're actually building and constructing these turbines there is a
08:27an element of future proofing because we've seen the technology increase
08:30massively over the last kind of 10-15 years but we are looking at that we've been
08:36asked that as one of the questions from the examiners to consider some of that
08:40so reducing it to 270 from no we would likely go down if we were going to do that
08:46I think it would be around 10% so to 352 yeah right okay right I see what sorry
08:54what I'm saying is that if if the current turbines that are available today are
09:00still available in four or five years time then there yes there is an there could
09:05well be an opportunity to build the ones that are currently at 270 meters but we
09:10don't have a certainty around that so we build in that future proofing
09:15now the next theme is taking the power to the land or doing some sort of
09:23agreement where we get cheap electricity that's supplied from the from zero by but
09:28actually it's part of the other one by the interconnector yeah have you got a
09:32preference of those two routes or is it I know the decision is ultimately with
09:35much utilities in the government but but does Orsted actually have a preference
09:40what would you would you prefer I think we're relatively neutral to be honest we
09:45we do recognize we've absolutely recognized the need to provide power to the
09:49island that's the first thing to say even though you know this is something
09:53that we've bothered voluntarily offered it it isn't a requirement that's being set
09:57by the government for instance I think in some ways it's potentially easier to do it
10:06through the through what's called a power purchase agreement through through the
10:09interconnector and that offers the opportunity to provide cheaper
10:13wholesale electricity for the benefit of all bearing in mind that isn't our
10:18decision we don't control the electricity price that is sold at to residents and
10:25businesses on the island but we can we can commit to providing cheaper
10:29wholesale electricity down that down that PPA long-term PPA route and that will
10:35be backed by certified what's called renewable energy guarantees of origin from
10:40more than wind farm so the electricity flowing through back to the island through the
10:45interconnector if you said the other the other option is to build a direct
10:49connection hmm that does bring some more complexities both from consenting
10:54perspective in terms of we maybe it forms part of the the MIC application that we
11:01we would need to obviously connect back to the island and we're looking at a
11:05landfall at Graildor Bay and then there is on onshore works that require
11:10obviously working with max utilities to deliver that to a suitable kind of
11:15quick connection so there is more complexity with either yes people will
11:20be concerned about the size of their electricity bills is there any likelihood
11:25that the electricity supplied directly to the island will be any cheaper than the
11:32electricity supplied through the internet via this purchase agreement but the way
11:36we've set up the we've as I say we've put these two options on the table and
11:40essentially in broad terms we've talked about if we don't deliver the
11:44island link using that that additional cost that we've committed to pay for to
11:50supply cheaper or wholesale electricity and that's roughly equivalent to around a
11:54third of the current demand of the island for free a wholesale rate hmm and
11:59typically sunny in the UK the wholesale cost of electricity is typically around a
12:06third of what you see on your bill so that's where the 10 to 15% estimate comes
12:12from in terms of reduction it's essentially a third yeah amount for free
12:16times a third of the proportion of your bill and if we were to deliver the island
12:22link and the government and let's be clear you know we we need that and we are
12:28having those conversations with the Energy Strategy Board for instance at the
12:33moment we need to also discuss that in the hole with the revenue to the island but
12:39the opportunity is there to to do a deal that could provide both for direct
12:44connection and cheaper electricity and that needs to be something that we we put
12:49our kind of those two options on the table to to government and we're working
12:54actively with them at the moment to try and
12:56is it a sort of frustration that the government haven't said what we prefer I
13:01mean what's the timeline of this what do you need to know before the
13:06recommendation is made to come in by the examining body or is it something that you
13:09pick up after they've made a decision or is it I think that should enter into the
13:13equation yeah I absolutely I think it should come into the equation but it
13:18isn't technically part of the examination process that we're going through this is
13:23but I agree and yes we are it's understandable given we've got a general election coming up
13:30but yes I think it would have been useful I think it's tricky because it would have
13:35been useful to just to be able to say that clearly but equally and I know he'll come on
13:39to this you then run the risk of this being a done deal and it certainly isn't a done deal
13:44so
13:45we're kind of a little bit between a rock and a hard place but the
13:49opportunities are absolutely there and we have set out the two options we put forward
13:55being open and transparent about those and we look forward to further discussions with
14:01kind of government departments on those yes I guess it's a question of impressions isn't it
14:08if you have a wind farm in Manx waters the public might expect the electricity to be
14:15taken to the island man but actually it matters not does it where ultimately the electricity is
14:22flowing into your homes which route it comes from well I think let's be clear that the the government
14:29policy is around the is primarily around the economic case to to the island and that's been
14:35clear for over 10 years now 13 years yeah and that is what we are that's what we're kind of
14:41providing
14:42primarily as I say we we also believe clearly the island needs to benefit and we are open to that
14:50discussion and we want to be clear about what we put on the table as options now yeah but yes
14:57you're
14:57right in a way I mean this is where the reading we get very technical about where where electricity
15:03actually comes from but yeah the it's important that we there is a direct benefit to the island not
15:10just the economic benefit to the treasury but also that benefits the whole of the island okay and that's
15:17leads us on to the the next theme which is it's check a benefit how much and it that's not
15:23a guarantee
15:23is it on what revenues could um no it's not guarantee um in the sense of we haven't even got
15:33a consent
15:34clearly none of this happens without consent it is based on a set of assumptions yeah um we have done
15:40our own modeling on that we have said for almost a year now in last last summer when we published
15:47our
15:47our benefits to the island book we talked about two billion fundamentally that is based on the same
15:53kind of assumptions government's own or treasury's economic advisory team have obviously done their
16:00own modeling and provided some comments on that into the consultation exercise which broadly supports
16:07the as a reasonable um a reasonable uh estimate in terms of the revenue um so we've we've kind of
16:17done
16:17that we aren't going to share our business model um it's highly confidential as i'm sure people can
16:23understand what we have done and committed to is to seek third party independent from either ourselves
16:29or government verification of the benefits and that's something that we will be submitting
16:35um in in july at deadline six to provide some kind of comfort that this isn't you know we haven't
16:44just made this up back of a fag packet yeah right okay uh i think we touched on this before
16:50done deal
16:51it's not a done deal no no uh no i and i think it's never a done deal i mean
16:59obviously again keep referring
17:01back to the uk because that is where we've done these developments before there is government
17:07support and they have a big cross-party support over the last decade in the uk both conservative and
17:12the labor government and it is the policy support is a lot clearer at a national level that doesn't
17:19exist in quite the same way here on the island um but no this is in no way and the
17:25original agreement
17:26back in 2013 that doesn't include um a line saying if if government pull out you'll be owed money from
17:38the taxpayers this is all no this is all at our risk um the development the construction and and the
17:46decommissioning are all for us the developer for all stood to pay there is no there is no taxpayers money
17:53that's at risk here regardless of the decision the risk is ours the decision is
17:58right and you mentioned decommissioning i think that's the last of the sort of big themes i think
18:03yeah sure i got from these only public meetings so yeah the costs of decommissioning
18:10broadly speaking yeah yeah absolutely they are and i think the questions have been around
18:16the level of kind of guarantee of decommissioning 35 years and that is something that
18:23the both the examiners have asked for more information on and we're we're doing that
18:27through the examination process we are typically doing nothing different than what we already do
18:32in in the uk and in across the world in terms of commitment around decommissioning typically that
18:39can take many forms it can be what's called a parent company guarantee often you can can be a letter
18:46of
18:46credit or something similar can be a decommissioning bond it's very rare to go down a kind of
18:52decommissioning there is quite a significant financial implication to that but all those are
18:57kind of tried and tested ways particularly around the kind of parent company guarantee so we there
19:04will be requirements a part of any if we are granted consent that will very clearly set out
19:11a decommissioning plan a decommissioning program and we've had a number of meetings and negotiations
19:18for the department of infrastructure about those so really we are the process really is for us to
19:24agree something that makes the department of infrastructure comfortable but we will indeed
19:30decommission this project um when we get to when we get to that point so that's that's where we're
19:36focused on just continuing on that thing so what was decommissioning actually involved in my month
19:41yeah i don't know the nuclear industry for instance their facilities become obsolete after a certain time
19:46so they have to be taken out of service and have to be cleaned up yeah do wind turbines become
19:53obsolete or or can you replace the actual turbine part of it or i mean are they are they how
20:00obsolete
20:01are they after x number of years so typically i mean and this is something that's beginning to
20:06kind of happen for offshore wind um in the sense that there are now much older wind farms are beginning
20:12to come towards i guess that either that operational lifetime yes end or that kind of consented operational
20:20lifetime which can be slightly different so um there's three things broadly you can decommission and
20:26and effectively take take out the infrastructure put in and typically that is the turbines and the
20:32foundations there is some discussion around whether you kind of take the foundations above the seabed
20:37only or you pull the whole thing up and there's some arguments around actually environmentally it's
20:43better to keep the stuff that's embedded in the seabed in the seabed um so there's some discussion but
20:49broadly and that that's the electrical cables so kind of take everything away uh there are other options
20:55that are around repowering um which i don't believe has been done for the offshore it has been done on
21:01shore before but effectively i talked about the um kind of the rise in terms of the scale of the
21:09the turbines but effectively putting less turbines in but bigger turbines it gets quite complicated
21:15because you've obviously got usually got a grid connection capacity and that doesn't necessarily change
21:21so you may see that you're restricted to say 500 megawatts a thousand megawatts capacity so
21:29there's quite a lot in there and also these bigger turbines obviously require bigger foundations that
21:34were put in 25 30 years ago and then there is a kind of third element which is broadly a
21:41kind of
21:42it's still running why would we take it down let's do what's got a lifetime extension so let's extend
21:48it for another 10 years let's keep it maintaining it usually you would need a separate consent to do that
21:55because typically it's only 25 years ago often consents worth 25 years um so you need to get a kind
22:03of
22:03consent to cover another say 10 15 years if we don't pursue the milvanian offshore wind farm what
22:11alternatives do you think there are for the island it's a good question it's probably a question that the
22:16islanders should be uh asking i would say government um because i do think the more bannon
22:26opportunity if it if it isn't taken up i think it does raise that question if it isn't more bannon
22:32what what what will it be what what is the plan um i'm not going to comment directly on the
22:38on that
22:39but i would say that the the island has had control over its territorial waters for i think 35 years
22:48now and the opportunity is there for something if it's not more bannon and i do think that needs to
22:53be a question asked uh when it comes to the point of making a decision um if it isn't more
22:58bannon then
22:59what is it and and also who's going to pay for it it's been well documented
23:03uh austin's financial uh situation you know the rights issue raised you've had quite a few job
23:11losses stakes in offshore wind farms are being reduced and i think you sold off some of the onshore
23:16plants so what what confidence do can the public have that also actually going to be around to to
23:23decommissioning or or to honor the um uh the pricing agreement you know years down the line
23:33you're still going to be around i hope so yeah i mean in some form i mean it's quite typical
23:39for
23:39offshore wind farms to divest part of their part of a wind farm we typically do that once we've
23:47constructed them uh we we also maintained um kind of majority control of those operational wind farms so
23:55you do get other partners buying in but that just to be clear it doesn't take away the kind of
24:00regulatory
24:01and consenting requirements to to kind of the operation and decommissioning period i mean i'm
24:08not going to talk too much about the all stood concerns i think all i would say is that uh
24:13the
24:13industry as a whole has had a number of uh it's been quite difficult period particularly inflation
24:19particularly with supply chain pressures also probably felt those more than more than most simply
24:25because we are kind of pretty much focused on on offshore wind but we are we're a track record we've
24:34been around for quite a long time now we've developed as i say we operate the most kind of capacity
24:41in
24:41the most megawatts outside i think outside china certainly across the globe so um yeah we've got a lot
24:48lot of experience in in-house to deliver this project and can i just ask you one final question
24:52which i might have slipped in earlier actually is um the capacity of the uk grid to accommodate
24:59the power generated from from the wind farm if it goes into the uk grid rather than it comes back
25:04here
25:04yeah does the uk grid have the capacity to deal with the power generated from yeah yeah we've got a
25:13uh
25:13a grid offer agreement um at the substation like a ship so you don't have to turn the turbines off
25:19because it's producing too much power for the grid to go no there are there are kind of i think
25:25what you're probably getting at is kind of curtailment issues which is particularly an issue
25:29between scotland and england where you have quite a lot of generation in scotland but the demand
25:34is more in the south of england so curtailment is something that renewables is does does have
25:40we have to deal with and governments have to deal and grid infrastructure has to deal with that is
25:46there's a big grid program going on in the uk at the moment um kind of around this to to
25:51kind of
25:51resolve so there are some underlying issues that you know will need resolved as well with all the
25:57forms of generation but no the we have a fixed we we have a grid offer that would cover the
26:04demand for
26:05uh very good joey thanks very much all right thank you cheers
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