- 2 days ago
Scott Daruty, the President of Elite Turf Club, joined this week's TDN Writers' Room to discuss both frustrations and misconceptions surrounding CAWs. The Writers' Room team also examined the latest court decisions on HISA, talked all things Royal Ascot, and looked ahead to this weekend's racing.
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SportsTranscript
00:00:18Welcome to another edition of the TDN Writers Room podcast presented by Keeneland. My name
00:00:22is Bill Finley. I'm a correspondent for the Thoroughbred Daily News. I also co-host the
00:00:27Down the Stretch radio show on Sirius XM with Dave Johnson. How are y'all doing? I am Randy Moss,
00:00:33I guess as you can see, with NBC Sports and Lucy Fast Asleep on the Couch as always.
00:00:41TD Thornton joining you this week, filling in for Zoe Kadman. I'm a correspondent with TDN,
00:00:46stablemate of Bill Finley's. Well, there are weeks like this where I am so glad that TD works
00:00:52for the Thoroughbred Daily News because he does all the heavy lifting when these court decisions
00:00:59on HISA come down. And frankly, TD, they tend to go right over my head. But you do a great
00:01:05job of
00:01:05explaining them to our readers. And I'm sure you'll do the same today on the podcast as there was
00:01:11another major ruling this week from the Fifth Circuit, the U.S. Court of Appeals Fifth Circuit,
00:01:16which shot down the enforcement provisions of the HISA saying that they are not constitutional. So
00:01:25I can wrap this up a little bit before we throw it to TD. We now have different rulings from
00:01:30different
00:01:31courts, which has created a lot of chaos and also the perception or the belief among a lot of people
00:01:39that whether or not HISA will continue to be the law of the land will ultimately be declared
00:01:45by the Supreme Court. So TD, bring us up to speed. What happened this week?
00:01:50So yes, it is an important ruling. It's important procedurally for what's going to happen a little
00:01:57bit down the road, meaning will the Supreme Court take up the question of whether the Horse Racing
00:02:04Integrity and Safety Act is constitutional or not? I'm not going to say it's not important, but it doesn't
00:02:11tell us anything new that we didn't already know before. The Fifth Circuit has already said
00:02:15that the enforcement mechanism of HISA, in its opinion, is not constitutional. But they already
00:02:22told us that back in July of 2024. And it's been kind of at a, you know, the ping pong
00:02:30game of going
00:02:30back and forth between the different courts has been at a little bit of a stalemate for the past couple
00:02:35of years. Because what happened over the past five years, starting in 2021, there are three different
00:02:42lawsuits at the federal level that have challenged the constitutionality of HISA. In fact, there are
00:02:49more than three, but these are the three that have been elevated at least to the Supreme Court level
00:02:53so far. One of them is out of the Fifth Circuit. And that is the National HBPA organization is leading
00:03:01that charge. There are some other plaintiffs in the case as well, saying that HISA is not
00:03:05constitutional. There's another one out of the Sixth Circuit Court of Appeals. That one is led by
00:03:11several states, including Oklahoma and West Virginia. They too are challenging the constitutionality
00:03:17of HISA. And there's a third one in which the Iowa and the Arkansas HBPA are also challenging the
00:03:23constitutionality of HISA. They're all a little bit different. But for the cases of simplification here,
00:03:29I'm just going to say that a central question to all of them is something called the non-delegation
00:03:34doctrine. And that is part of the constitution that says that Congress cannot delegate powers
00:03:46to a third party or to an agency unless it has an intelligible guiding principle from a federal agency.
00:03:55In this case, HISA is overseen by the Federal Trade Commission, the FTC. So starting in 2021
00:04:03and continuing up to 2023, those three lawsuits kind of rose to the top. They were battled back
00:04:09and forth at the district court level. The losing sides in each of them at the Fifth Circuit Court of
00:04:15Appeals, they said the rulemaking for HISA is constitutional. The enforcement mechanism,
00:04:21how it's carried out day to day, is not. The Sixth Circuit Court of Appeals said everything about
00:04:27HISA is constitutional. We're okay with that. And they've reviewed it several times as well.
00:04:31And in the Eighth Circuit, they have also agreed with the Sixth Circuit and said that HISA is
00:04:35constitutional. The sides that lost each of those cases asked for the Supreme Court's review. And for
00:04:43the Supreme Court to review cases, it has to go through all of these steps and all of these channels.
00:04:48Um, what happened last year was right when the Supreme Court was about to break for their summer
00:04:55vacation, at the end of June, on June 30th, they said, instead of dealing with each of these requests
00:05:04to be taken up by the court, the Supreme Court, in some people's terms, punted on the issue. And they
00:05:09said, they came up with kind of a unique solution. They said, hey, all of those appeals courts at the
00:05:14Fifth, Sixth, and Eighth Circuits, we're not going to rule on this right now. But what we have just
00:05:19ruled on a case that is similar, and that case is similar, deals with the Federal Communications
00:05:26Commission, and how it had some agencies that were subordinate to it, that gave out, that oversaw
00:05:34providing telecom services to underprivileged and rural areas. And the Supreme Court last June,
00:05:41just ruled on that on June 27th of 2025. And they said that the non-delegation doctrine
00:05:49was not being run afoul of in those cases, that those agencies were being subordinate to the
00:05:55federal agency, everything was okay. And they, and that ruling just came out on June 27th of 2025. So
00:06:03three days later, right before they went on summer vacation, the Supreme Court said, hey,
00:06:08Fifth, Sixth, and Eighth Circuit appeals courts, why don't you guys take this ruling that we just
00:06:13did 72 hours ago, and have a look at it and see if it changes your mind on the opinions
00:06:18that you've
00:06:19issued in the previous several years? Well, kind of predictably, at least to my way of thinking,
00:06:25the two appeals courts that have ruled so far have said, no, it has not changed our opinion.
00:06:30The Sixth Circuit Court of Appeals came out with their revised opinion first back in December.
00:06:35They said, we still think that Haise is completely constitutional. Even though you've asked us to
00:06:40look at this different ruling, it doesn't change our mind. And then just last week, the Fifth Circuit
00:06:45Court of Appeals, they said, we're not changing our minds either. We still think that the rulemaking
00:06:51is constitutional, but the enforcement mechanism is not. And now we're waiting for the Eighth Circuit
00:06:58Court of Appeals to weigh in. They have not gotten quite to that level yet. But the Sixth Circuit
00:07:04Court of Appeals, because theirs already happened six months ago, and their window would have been
00:07:08closing for them to ask the Supreme Court to look at it again, they have already asked for
00:07:14the Supreme Court to take up their case again. I would imagine that in the Fifth Circuit's case,
00:07:21Haise, which technically, quote unquote, for lack of a better term, lost the case because
00:07:28the Fifth Circuit Court of Appeals is saying the rulemaking is constitutional, the enforcement is
00:07:32not. I'm sure Haise and those defendants will appeal. And again, we're still waiting for the
00:07:36Eighth Circuit to chime in. So what does this all mean? Procedurally, those things had to have been
00:07:41done. That's what the Supreme Court said it wanted done. And now two of those appeals courts have weighed
00:07:46in with their decision. We're waiting on the third one. I will say it's really difficult to get the
00:07:54Supreme Court to overturn a federal law because of the non-delegation doctrine. It hasn't happened
00:08:01since 1935. So, TD, if the Eighth Circuit sticks to its guns, and once again, you have conflicting
00:08:10rulings among the circuit courts, is it likely that it goes back to the Supreme Court? And if that
00:08:17happens, that's probably a pretty lengthy timeline, isn't it? It would probably be at least another
00:08:23year because, again, the Supreme Court is, first of all, the Eighth Circuit has not ruled yet. I would
00:08:28think that the Supreme Court is going to want to hear back from all three of those appeals courts before
00:08:34it says whether they will take up this new case or not. So unless the Eighth Circuit
00:08:40ruling comes out in the next couple of weeks, that's part of the delay. And then there's the
00:08:46issue of, let's say all the rulings are in, and it plays out, as you said, where each of the
00:08:51appeals
00:08:51courts stick to their earlier rulings. The Supreme Court can still decide not to take the case. They do
00:08:57take cases when the situation, Randy, you just described is called a circuit split. So there are
00:09:03several appeals courts within the nation that have conflicting opinions about whether it's legal or not.
00:09:08Those are issues that the Supreme Court does and has in the past historically taken up and resolved
00:09:14to put its stamp on it. But they don't have to take up the case. So we don't we don't
00:09:20know.
00:09:21If I didn't know better, I would say you graduated from Harvard Law School. So but you sort of hinted
00:09:28at
00:09:28this in your very, very good explanation of what's going on. I actually now feel like I understand this a
00:09:36better is listening to you. But we're all experts at trying to predict horse races. If in fact, this
00:09:45gets to the Supreme Court, do you have a prediction? How would they how do you think they would rule?
00:09:51Well, I'm going to stay away with respect from your question, just because I have to report on
00:09:56these issues. So I don't want to be publicly stating an opinion leaning one way or the other. That
00:10:00wouldn't wouldn't be correct to the to the people I have to cover on each side of the issue. I
00:10:04try to
00:10:04remain objective. But I would. I read something in our in TDN this past week, our colleague Dan Ross
00:10:14had a question and answer session with a person who is an expert on constitutional law as my sister,
00:10:22by the way, that's your sister, Lucinda Finley, in the interest of full disclosure. And she came up
00:10:28with something very interesting that said, you know, so I will defer to Lucinda's opinion, which
00:10:34didn't really I couldn't have come up with this on my own. But she said, you know, the Supreme Court
00:10:39has a lot on its hands right now. There are other things that, you know, as much as we like
00:10:45to think
00:10:45this is important in our little world, there are there are issues of far greater importance in the in
00:10:50America right now that the Supreme Court has dropped in their laps and have to deal with.
00:10:55They might eventually they might come back and say, hey, we're not taking it up. But look at this
00:11:01other similar to what they did last year. Take a look at this other ruling or we're going to we're
00:11:05going to tweak something in part and have have a look at this and send it back. And they might
00:11:11kind
00:11:11of ping pong it back to the appeals courts, wondering if the people who keep reappealing and
00:11:18asking for the courts to look at it, if they'll eventually kind of get tired of doing that and
00:11:24and say, you know, and recognize that this has been the law of the land now for for going on
00:11:29six
00:11:29years. And maybe it is in their best interest to step away from the fight. I can't speak for the
00:11:34people
00:11:35involved in the fight, whether they want to do that or not. But there does come a point where
00:11:39the Supreme Court might just say, you know, no, we're we're not going to deal with this. Live
00:11:44live with it. And that could happen. I doubt if we'll see anything about HISA on truth social
00:11:49anytime soon, actually. So I know this is a dramatic oversimplification, but the people that are
00:11:56claiming the courts that it's unconstitutional HISA basically have the argument, if I'm not if I'm
00:12:01not mistaken, correct me if I'm wrong, that FTC is the parent company and they've been too much of a
00:12:07hands-off parent. That's correct. Yeah. So so in the kind of getting back to the what is the
00:12:14non-delegation doctrine, in my understanding, it's it bans Congress from delegating a legislative power
00:12:22to agencies without an intelligible principle to guide them. So they can delegate some of the powers
00:12:29to an agency like it. So the FTC, the parent federal organization, can delegate to the independent
00:12:35organization, HISA, some duties if they're if the courts believe that there is an intelligible
00:12:41principle in guiding it. So they, you know, in the case of the the precedent case that the Supreme
00:12:50Court asked them to look at, they said, oh, yeah, the FCC is is overseeing all of these telecom
00:12:55initiative programs for for for low income and rural places. And we're satisfied that the higher
00:13:03federal agency is really pulling the strings behind the scene and has the final say in the
00:13:08oversight. And a court has to ideally a court would have to say whether it's the Supreme Court or all
00:13:15three appeals courts being in conjunction with one another, they have to say, yes, we agree that that's
00:13:20happening. And right now, the Fifth Circuit is saying, no, no, no, no. We don't think that the
00:13:25that the FTC is sufficiently hands on to be guiding HISA. We don't think that in with respect to their
00:13:32enforcement mechanisms. We don't think that's happening. Well, it's not going to end anytime
00:13:38soon. Right now, HISA still is the law of the land, but we will see where this all goes down
00:13:43the
00:13:43road. Fascinating stuff, especially whether or not this winds up in the Supreme Court. We're going to
00:13:48take a little break. When we come back, we're going to have the Gainesway guest of the week, Scott
00:13:51DeRudy from Elite Turf Club. He's going to explain a lot of questions, answer a lot of questions about
00:13:57CAW Adrian. Stay with us. TDN Writers Room is brought to you by Keeneland. It's Royal Ascot
00:14:03Week, and there will be a strong contingent of Keeneland-sold horses making an appearance at the
00:14:07meeting. At least a dozen Keeneland-sold horses have been entered over the first five days, including
00:14:12Alpha Teal, Easy Tina, Fanshell Beach, Nil Bua, Gondua, Noah Soul, On Just Terms, One Number,
00:14:20Outfielder, Sandal Song, Shiny Moment, Tail Gunner Joe, and Black Forza. Find your next year's
00:14:27Royal Ascot Entrant at the Keeneland September sale beginning Monday, September 14th.
00:14:33We do this so your granddaughter can work on a farm someday.
00:14:38So the stands will still be packed in 50 years. That's why we come to work every day,
00:14:45obsess over every single detail.
00:14:50Because the story of racing is written one moment at a time. And the future of our industry
00:14:56deserves nothing less. Keeneland, every moment matters.
00:15:03The fastest horse of the week brought to you as always by the fast sires at Windstar Farm. One of
00:15:09those, of course, we've talked about before. Constitution. As a matter of fact, we've been
00:15:14talking a lot this year about Constitution's success with three-year-olds. He is a top five
00:15:21sire of three-year-olds thus far in 2026. And on Saturday, he had another success in that category
00:15:28when Love Your Neighbor, the three-year-old filly, was a determined winner of the $300,000
00:15:33Delaware Oaks. That is already Constitution's fourth three-year-old graded stake source of the
00:15:40year. And his three-year-olds have won almost $4 million in purse money. Constitution stands at
00:15:47Windstar for a fee of $110,000. Fastest horse of the week ran on Saturday on the Jersey Shore at
00:15:54Monmouth Park in the Salvador Mile. It was a stirring stretch duel between East Avenue and
00:16:01Bishop's Bay, the two favorites in the race. Bishop's Bay actually was the betting favorite,
00:16:06but East Avenue and Tyler Gafleon got home a nose in front. Six links back to the rest of the
00:16:12field
00:16:13and the buyer speed figure for both horses. East Avenue gets the credit, of course, for the win.
00:16:171.05. A career-high buyer for the good dolphin four-year-old trained by Brendan Walsh, who showed
00:16:25a new dimension in the Salvador Mile, rallying from last in the six-horse field, circling the field
00:16:31wide, and winning for a change from off the pace. So, East Avenue, our fastest horse of the week.
00:16:42Welcome in now the Gainsway Guest of the Week and Scott Drudy. He works for the Stornet Group,
00:16:47but he is also the president and head man at the Elite Turf Club. For a lack of a better
00:16:52term,
00:16:52the Elite Turf Club is a facilitator or where many of the bets from the CAW players come from. In
00:16:59the
00:16:59past on this podcast and also in some of the writing maybe that people have done in the TDN,
00:17:06there has been some criticism, and I think justifiably so, of CAW play. Scott asked through
00:17:12our colleague Zoe Cadman if he could come on to get equal time to give his explanation and to talk
00:17:19more about CAWs from his perspective. Welcome, Scott. Well, first of all, thank you very much for
00:17:25having me on and thank you for giving me an opportunity to talk on what is a very important
00:17:29topic for our industry. I understand some of the anxiety of the retail customers and what I think
00:17:38we should always try to do in our industry is focus on problems and find real solutions. And so,
00:17:45part of what I find frustrating is when there's narratives that get started that aren't entirely
00:17:50accurate, that actually undercuts our ability to adopt a worthwhile solution because we're looking
00:17:56at a problem that doesn't exist as opposed to looking at the problem that does exist.
00:18:03So, what are some of the misconceptions about CAW play? I mean, we can throw some of the crazy ones,
00:18:11you know, we can cross those off the list right away, but you still hear rumors that, oh, they're
00:18:15allowed to bet after the race starts and nonsense like that. I think you guys know enough about the
00:18:21industry and about how stewards close the pools, and that's just not possible. So, like I said,
00:18:26that one's kind of noise. Some of the other misconceptions, CAW players receive special data.
00:18:34They have access to see pools that the general public does not have. That is absolutely not true.
00:18:42The host tote system, so if we're talking about one of the Stronic-owned tracks like Santa Anita,
00:18:50the host tote is Amtote. If you're talking about Churchill Downs, the host tote is United Tote.
00:18:56The host tote system assimilates all the wagering data and sends out one data feed. It's a single
00:19:04data feed that goes to every wagering location. So, if you, Bill, or you, Randy, are at the racetrack and
00:19:10you're watching the tote board in the infield, that is coming from that data feed. If you log on to
00:19:16TVG
00:19:17or Twin Spires or ExpressBet, you're seeing that same data feed. Now, you're coming through a user
00:19:24interface that those companies have created for you, but nevertheless, the data feed is itself the
00:19:30same data feed. And that's the same for CAW players. Whether they're betting through Elite Turf Club or
00:19:36whether they're betting through one of the other CAW platforms, it's the exact same data feed with the
00:19:42exact same data. So, the misconception, sometimes you'll hear there's a Rainbow Six jackpot at Gulf
00:19:49Stream Park and you'll hear, oh my gosh, the CAW players can see which combinations are covered and
00:19:54which are uncovered and therefore they're able to bet. Well, I mean, that's a conspiracy theory that
00:19:59always makes me laugh a little bit because one, it's not true because there is only one data feed and
00:20:04that information, the uncovered ticket combinations was not in that tote feed. But the funny thing is, even if it
00:20:13were, how would you ever coordinate who's going to be the one player who gets to take the uncovered ticket,
00:20:19right? If everybody could see uncovered tickets, they'd all jump on the uncovered tickets and they wouldn't be
00:20:23uncovered anymore. So, those are the kinds of things that concern me because they are a distraction from what is
00:20:31the
00:20:31real issue and how do we adopt workable, common sense solutions to those issues.
00:20:38You also said something, Scott, in a recent article that I hadn't thought about and I thought was absolutely
00:20:44fascinating. There's all this anxiety out there and I can understand the frustration about the late odds
00:20:50drops that you're seeing right now in thoroughbred racing. But you made the good point that, I mean,
00:20:58there are so many big retail bettors out there that used to bet on track and now they're betting
00:21:07through ADWs. They may be sitting in the grandstand at the racetrack they're betting on and they're
00:21:12betting on their app instead of walking up to the window. And for good reason, all these people are
00:21:17wanting to bet at the latest possible moment as well. So, it's not just the CAW players that are betting
00:21:24at the last minute. A lot of the ADW players are doing the same thing.
00:21:29Yeah, Randy, you're 100% correct. And I think, look, it's a wonderful thing that technology has
00:21:36gotten to the point where our consumers can hold our product in their hand and bet whenever they want
00:21:42from wherever they want. So, the technology is great, but it does create some issues. And I like
00:21:47to let the data talk. And so, here's a specific piece of data. We studied a year's worth of races
00:21:53at
00:21:53Santa Anita Park. It was from June 1 of 2024. I'm sorry, July 1 of 24 to June 30 of
00:22:0225. So,
00:22:02a 12-month period. There were 909 races conducted by Santa Anita Park over that 12-month period.
00:22:10We looked at the handle that came in in the last 60 seconds. Now, I'm not talking about one minute
00:22:17to post because, as you guys know, one minute to post goes to zero minutes to post and the race
00:22:21isn't going to take place for a few minutes after that. I'm talking about the 60 seconds prior to
00:22:26the gate opening. And in that 60 seconds prior to the gate opening in 909 races at Santa Anita,
00:22:33the average amount of retail money in the last 60 seconds was 70% of the money that came in
00:22:41in the
00:22:41last 60 seconds was retail money. 30% of it was CAW money. So, I like to say when people
00:22:48see the
00:22:48odd shift and they say, well, is CAW responsible for that late odd shift? Well, in that sample of
00:22:54data I just gave you, yeah, CAW was responsible for 30% of it. And the other 70% was
00:23:00retail players
00:23:01because, as you point out, Randy, it's so much easier for them to wait to the last minute now to
00:23:05bet. Scott, we're now roughly two decades into the CAW era, more or less. And I'm just wondering if
00:23:14you could back it up to a higher level and kind of calibrate the marketplace for us. At this point
00:23:19in 2026, is the racing industry at a point where the tracks need CAWs more than the CAWs need the
00:23:27tracks? Or is it the other way around? No, I think that's a good question. But I think it's a
00:23:33relationship like with all of our customers. We need each other. We need, as racetracks, we need
00:23:38retail customers. We need the hardcore customer who bets every week and has their local track and
00:23:47goes there and bets that track or that circuit all the time. It's a spectrum, right? From the
00:23:53person who only bets on Derby and Preakness and Breeders' Cup weekend to the guy who's betting all
00:23:59the time. And then the far end of the spectrum, obviously, is these professional players who
00:24:02utilize CAW platforms. But I think we all need each other. I think one of the things, and this
00:24:10wasn't specifically your question, but I can kind of drill down on your question a little bit. And I
00:24:14think hidden in there was kind of a question of, hey, how much is CAW of the market, right? What
00:24:20percentage of the market is it? And like everything in our industry, it is so dependent on what racetrack
00:24:27are you talking about? What market are you talking about? We're not a coordinated industry as we see
00:24:32in all sorts of issues. I wish we were more coordinated, but we're not. And so this is really
00:24:38a question of each individual racetrack. What's right for them? What does that track want in terms
00:24:44of how much CAW play in their pools or how much not in their pools? So let me tell you
00:24:49specifically,
00:24:50at Santa Anita racetrack, that same one-year period we studied, July 1 of 24 through June 30 of 25,
00:25:01CAW play was exactly 22.9% of the Santa Anita pools. I personally like to target about 20%. I
00:25:12think
00:25:12that's a healthy sort of amount. This year, we just concluded our Santa Anita meet. As you know,
00:25:17yesterday was our last race day. So we ran some numbers last night. This year, over the corresponding
00:25:2512 months, so now I'm talking July 1 of 25 through yesterday, CAW was 19.09% of the Santa
00:25:35Anita pool.
00:25:36So it actually came down a bit. But again, we're right around that 20% market. I happen to think
00:25:41that's a healthy environment. So back to your question, do we need them more? Do they need us
00:25:46more? I think it's symbiotic. I think they obviously want to bet in our pools, and we obviously like the
00:25:52handle, but we want to make sure it's not dominating what's taking place in our pools.
00:25:58Can we back it up just a little bit further before we continue? I know we have a pretty educated
00:26:02audience, but there are a lot of people that find this just fascinating. You read about Elite Turf 15,
00:26:08Elite Turf 17. I mean, roughly, how many people are we talking about, actual horse players who put money
00:26:18through the windows, that are involved with Elite Turf Club? We have about 20 players at any given
00:26:25time, and it's not constant. Some of them burn out. Some of them, you know, guys come in, they think
00:26:30they've got the secret to make money in horse racing, and it's a tough game. So some of them make
00:26:36it,
00:26:36and some of them don't, and as some spin out, others come in and try. I would say, I would
00:26:43say
00:26:44this. It is, like I said, a spectrum, right? You have people who, you guys know, they bet the
00:26:54funny name of the horse or the favorite jockey or the color of the silks, and that's great. You have
00:26:59guys who handicap sort of moderately. I'll look at the form for 20 minutes before, you know, the race,
00:27:06and then you have other guys who are studying it all night the night before. So this is just the
00:27:11far
00:27:11end of the spectrum. These are people who, you know, there's a misconception about what it is really
00:27:17they're doing. Oh, it's just math, and they've got these computers that run and find value, and there's
00:27:22no analysis going in. Let's always remember, this is horse racing. Unless they pick the winning horse,
00:27:29they're not going to make money. And so these guys are really good and really sophisticated
00:27:34at picking the winning horse. It's not just math. It's not a computer that runs itself and just,
00:27:39you know, looks for overlays. Scott, understanding everything that you've said,
00:27:45and you've made some very good points, and the best one, of course, is, you know, nobody
00:27:49with a clue thinks these people are betting after the races. But, you know, getting back to
00:27:54what the frustrations that horse players have, these things happen. The horse goes into the gate
00:27:59at two to one. He hits the 16th pole, four lengths in front, and all of a sudden, the horse
00:28:05is paying
00:28:05320. Can you understand the frustration, and what do you say to that person? Yeah, I 100% understand
00:28:14the frustration. It causes me frustration, too, for a slightly different reason. And the reason I get
00:28:21frustrated is because, come on, can we not solve any problem? But it's a more technical and a more
00:28:29difficult problem to solve than you think. The gates open, and the betting stops. But remember,
00:28:40those bets are taking place all around the world. All that data has got to come in, and it's got
00:28:46to
00:28:46get assimilated. Typically, at an Amtoch-hosted racetrack, we have all the data, and it's all
00:28:52calculated within 10 seconds of the gates opening. Then we send the data feed back out. If you're
00:29:01watching on television, if you're watching on TVG, or you're watching, you know, Fox, or whatever
00:29:07you're watching, that data feed has to get to that entity. Okay, now it's got to go through their
00:29:15graphics. It's got to be uploaded into their video to be reflected on the screen. Best case,
00:29:23that's five to 10 seconds. So from a technological standpoint, once the gates open, you're really not
00:29:29able to display the correct odds on the screen for about 20 seconds. And to make matters worse,
00:29:37I'll give you an example that we were just banging our heads against a wall over there was a prominent
00:29:41racetrack had an issue where it was literally three quarters of the race was over and the horses were in
00:29:47the home stretch. And there was a material change in the odds. And everybody was appropriately outraged
00:29:55by that. And as we dug in to really figure out what was going on, turns out the particular production
00:30:03company that was producing the simulcast feed for that racetrack had a technology for whatever reason
00:30:10that was set to only update the odds when the running order changed in the race. So if the horses
00:30:16break from the gate one, two, three, and they ran three quarters of the race, and it was still one,
00:30:22two, three was the running order. They were not updating the odds until the two passed the one,
00:30:27and it now became two, one, three, and they updated the odds. And that's why the odds shifted.
00:30:32Now, of course, a retail player that's way more detailed than, you know, anybody needs to think
00:30:36about. A retail player sees the horses in the home stretch and sees the odds change and go,
00:30:41this is outrageous. But that's an example of that had nothing to do with CAW. It had nothing to do,
00:30:47in fact, with betting. It had nothing to do with the timing of the tote company calculating the final odds.
00:30:51It was all a display issue by the production company that was creating the simulcast feed.
00:30:57So there's a lot of people who touch the product along the way, and it's hard to
00:31:01make sure they always stay coordinated. Scott, I'll ask you another kind of calibrating the
00:31:07marketplace question. I know it's not your particular job to be dealing with the retail
00:31:14customers and growing the retail base and that you have other people within your organization who that
00:31:19is their job. But as you've mentioned several times, it's all intertwined. It's all one big ball.
00:31:24And in order for those high volume customers, those more sophisticated customers to win,
00:31:31somebody's got to be on the losing end in the pari-mutual system. And with that in mind,
00:31:38where should the appropriate level of concern be within the industry
00:31:43of retail players vacating the marketplace? Is it yellow alert? Is it red alert? Or is it
00:31:49not even that high a concern? Where would you say it is, please?
00:31:52Look, I think it's a concern. I think we have to have retail players to have a business. We recognize
00:31:59that. We're in a very competitive and difficult environment in terms of all the other sports betting
00:32:06opportunities in terms of all the entertainment opportunities for our consumer. We're in a market
00:32:15where, for whatever reason, purses keep growing, but there's less and less foals every year and the
00:32:20fields are getting smaller. So our content, we've got to focus on the quality of the content as well.
00:32:28So I don't know how to answer your question other than to say, of course, we're concerned. Of course,
00:32:33we want to have growth in retail. But I would say this. Again, I mentioned earlier, I like to let
00:32:40the data do the talking. So what is the actual impact of CAW on retail play? We know in a
00:32:50pari-mutual
00:32:50system, if one player wins more than their fair share, what does fair share mean? Well, if you're
00:32:57playing against a 20% takeout, I guess over time, if everybody won 80%, then everybody's doing exactly
00:33:04equally. But we know if somebody wins and cashes at higher than 80%, that money has to come from
00:33:10somewhere. And so we've done an analysis. And we took 10 years of ExpressBet data. Now, ExpressBet is,
00:33:20as you guys know, a large retail ADW platform. The numbers are disclosed publicly through Oregon.
00:33:27It does about a billion dollars, let's call it round number, a billion dollars of turnover a year
00:33:32through ExpressBet. And that's everything from the $2 better to the couple times a month better
00:33:37to the everyday better, right? So it's a good spectrum. We believe it's a good proxy for
00:33:43the retail market. What does the retail market look like? Well, it's hard to study the entire market,
00:33:48but we can look at that $1 billion of ExpressBet turnover and say, that's a pretty good proxy.
00:33:54Every quarter for the last 10 years, so we have 40 data points. Every quarter for the last 10 years,
00:34:01we looked and we said, over this quarter, how much did ExpressBet customers wager and how much did they
00:34:08cash, right? How much did they wager and how much did they cash? That tells us sort of what the
00:34:15overall
00:34:15takeout was for that quarter. Over the last 10 years, that has declined by 1.6%. So in other words,
00:34:27in the, in the, and we did it on a rolling sort of four-month quarter. So every quarter, you're
00:34:32looking
00:34:32at the two before and the two after and averaging it. So it's sort of smooths out the ups and
00:34:36downs.
00:34:36But let's think about that for a minute. What does that mean? That means over 10 years, which is
00:34:45really when there's been a lot of growth in the CAW marketplace, our customers, our retail customers
00:34:54are now cashing 1.6% less than they were 10 years ago. Is that a good thing? Is that
00:35:03a bad thing?
00:35:03You can have different interpretations of it. I'm just saying it's a fact. Those are what the
00:35:08numbers say. Is that all CAW impact? You know, great minds can differ on that. I personally think
00:35:15not. I think you guys know how much more people tend to bet pick threes, pick fours, pick fives,
00:35:21pick sixes today than they did 10 years ago. And even, you know, that part has, has,
00:35:27I don't know if because people want a bigger payoff or, or because it's marketing by, you know,
00:35:32PVG pushing, you know, on television or what it is, but we know people are betting more of the
00:35:36exotics. Exotics have a higher takeout. I think some of that 1.6% changes is people betting into
00:35:42different pools. Some of it is potentially smaller field size today than there was before. So payoffs
00:35:49tend to be lower. I don't know. It could potentially be a lot of different reasons for that, but the
00:35:56notion and going back to the very first thing I said, when we started this discussion, I want to
00:36:01get the facts out. And so we can make real decisions about real solutions. I don't want people chasing
00:36:08conspiracy theories. And sometimes I read, well, the retail player is actually playing against a
00:36:14takeout of 30 or 35% after you factor in the CAW. That's absolutely not correct.
00:36:21So Scott, I've, I've had two major issues, I guess, with CAWs. One you've already addressed,
00:36:28and that's the racetrack ownership of CAWs. You made a really good case for that. So I'm going to
00:36:34give you a chance to poke a hole in my other one, right? I've got no problem with someone that
00:36:39wants
00:36:40to build a better mousetrap and employ teams of people. It's, it's, it's horse playing. Yeah. And if,
00:36:47if they can be more successful at horse playing, however they do it, that's great. I've got no
00:36:53problem with rebates. I've got frequent flyer miles. I've got all these other, you know,
00:36:58but my primary concern was that the CAW players are allowed the direct access computer wise into
00:37:08the pools to look for any efficiencies that the retail players don't have. How would you respond to
00:37:15that? With due respect, Randy, I hate to say it, but that's another one of those misconceptions. So
00:37:22let me get, let me get, let me give you the facts. As, as I mentioned earlier, there's one and
00:37:28only one
00:37:29data feed. So they are not seeing combinations or information that isn't available to others.
00:37:40the, the, the, the, the second point that, how do I say this? The, the, the second point of not
00:37:50only do
00:37:51they see the, the, the data that others don't see, that's not true, but that they have direct access
00:37:57into the pools. I always find that interesting because that's not correct. They don't have direct
00:38:04access into the pools. Every racetrack that's running a race has a, has its own tote company
00:38:11that hosts the pool. The all wagers, whether it's from somebody at a racetrack at somebody in a casino
00:38:18in Las Vegas, somebody online on TVG, all those wagers get sent to the guests host, a tote. So in
00:38:30the case
00:38:30of TVG, they use United tote. Um, in the case of a casino in Las Vegas, they use global tote,
00:38:36but that local tote takes it, sends it to the host tote. It's not direct. They don't go direct
00:38:44into the pools. What is about for elite players? Well, elite, it uses Amtote as its tote system.
00:38:52So the elite bets go to Amtote. They go to a hub at Amtote, get collated with all the other
00:38:58Amtote
00:38:59bets and sent to the host racetracks pools. I think the way this misconception got started
00:39:05is because when you go on TVG or ExpressBet or Twin Spires, you log on with you on your phone,
00:39:11your computer, there's an interface, right? There's a click here. What track do you want to bet? Um,
00:39:17okay, what pool do you click this win bet or, or exact a bet, click the dollar amount, click your
00:39:22horses. And in, in that sense, people feel like they're dealing with a third party website that
00:39:29then puts the wagers into the pool. In the case of elite, we don't have a, an interface. We don't
00:39:35have a click here, click there. They write their own, it's called API, but they, they, they write
00:39:40their, um, own program to send the bets. But importantly, where are they sending them? They're
00:39:46not sending them directly into the Tote, into the host Tote pool. They're sending them to Amtote,
00:39:53which collates them and passes them on to the racetrack. So their interaction is no more direct
00:40:00to the pool than any other website. In fact, on ExpressBet, we have a feature and I'm sure they do
00:40:05on the other platforms. Also on ExpressBet, we have a feature we call it direct file upload.
00:40:09As an ExpressBet customer, you can create your bets in an Excel spreadsheet.
00:40:15And there's a certain format, you know, race number comma, you know, rate, uh, uh, what pool
00:40:21comma, what dollar amount comma, there's a format you have to follow, but you write it in an Excel
00:40:25spreadsheet and you, and you could put a hundred, 200, a thousand bets in that spreadsheet and click
00:40:31upload. And they all get uploaded and they all get placed. And if you want, you can make them
00:40:36conditional. You can say, I only want these bets to go in. If at, um, at zero minutes to post
00:40:42the,
00:40:42the three horse is five to one or better, and you can click it and you can leave and it'll
00:40:47upload.
00:40:47Like all these tools are available through the retail platforms, just like they're available
00:40:53through the, the CAW platforms. They just don't get utilized nearly as much as frankly, people
00:40:59probably should utilize. So you're saying that any retail player like myself has the, has the
00:41:05capability to create a computer program, algorithms to look for inefficiencies in pools, just exactly
00:41:14the same way that elite turf club players do just without the benefit of rebates or things like that.
00:41:21Well, yes, except for if you're going to bet enough, you'll get a rebate. I don't know what
00:41:26platform you use, but call them and say, I'm going to bet a, you know, a million dollars, you know,
00:41:30over the next six months, will you give me a rebate? I promise you they'll say yes.
00:41:33All right. I don't think I'll be doing that anytime soon, Scott, but thank you for the offer.
00:41:38All right. There you go. Well, Scott, thank you so much for joining us and shedding some light on
00:41:42the CAW situation. Very interesting discussion. And I'm sure the questions will remain. And thanks
00:41:50for giving us some answers to the questions. Being this week's Gainesway Guest of the Week. Once
00:41:55again, Scott Drudy, thank you so much. Thank you. Our guest of the week, Scott Drudy,
00:42:00came to you courtesy of Gainesway, the home of the hot drain, the clock, who had his second winner
00:42:07and a TD and rising star on Friday at Santa Anita in the name of Kenny 10, making his career
00:42:13debut,
00:42:14a seven and a half length winner in California, earning a buyer's speed figure of 91. That's the
00:42:20fastest buyer for any two-year-old so far in 2026. And he beat a one to five Amherzadon Bob
00:42:29Baffert
00:42:30favorite to do that. There are 16 of Drain the Clock's first crop of two-year-olds selling this
00:42:34week at the OBS June sale. And earlier this year, his juveniles sold for up to $1.1 million
00:42:40at OBS March. Drain the Clock stands for just $10,000 at Gainesway.
00:42:59Drain the Clock. Jackie's Warrior. Drain the Clock by a head.
00:43:05One man, one, one million White. One, one, 100,000. 75, 700. Mike, 700,000.
00:43:1270, 70, 70, 70, 170, 570,000. Thank you.
00:43:19This week's episode of First Things First, first Michelle Yu checks in with Bob Baffert
00:43:24and the connections of Mizumi, who is now perfect two for two after winning the grade three
00:43:29summertime bonus.
00:43:36Not only is Bob Maffer joining me, Frank, but I also have Elsa from Frozen.
00:43:41No, Elsa.
00:43:41Oh, Elsa.
00:43:42Oh, yeah.
00:43:42Bob doesn't want to watch a Disney, all right?
00:43:44So this is Summer.
00:43:45This is Summer.
00:43:47Say hi.
00:43:47Who's this guy?
00:43:49Papa.
00:43:51He's shy.
00:43:52Oh, I hear you.
00:43:53She wants her mommy.
00:43:54All right.
00:43:55You can have mommy.
00:43:56Come on, mom.
00:43:57Come on, mom.
00:43:58We're very family friendly here.
00:43:59Say bye, Summer.
00:44:01It's on Summer.
00:44:02She's so cute, Bob.
00:44:03Who's that?
00:44:05That's Canyon.
00:44:06My son Canyon and Kirsten, my first granddaughter.
00:44:09I love it.
00:44:10She turned three after the Belmont.
00:44:12Always easy to remember.
00:44:13She was born the day before the Belmont.
00:44:16And so grandpa's name is Papa?
00:44:18Papa.
00:44:18Papa.
00:44:19I love it.
00:44:20I'm going to start calling you that.
00:44:20Papa Bob.
00:44:21Jill is lovey.
00:44:23I can tell who she likes better.
00:44:24Yeah, she loves Jill.
00:44:26All right.
00:44:27Speaking of love, we love Mizumi right here.
00:44:29Fantastic effort.
00:44:30What were your thoughts?
00:44:31You know, that was pretty impressive.
00:44:32You know, for a second time out, and Ricky Gonzalez, he rode her the first time.
00:44:37Poor guy.
00:44:37But, you know, he's filling in for Juan.
00:44:39But he rode her great that day.
00:44:41And then today, you know, second out to be stuck behind horses.
00:44:45And Juan rode her with a lot of confidence.
00:44:49And you could just tell she was just kicking on.
00:44:52And Juan came back, and I could tell he was pretty impressed.
00:44:55Yes, it's hard, you know, these riders.
00:44:57But, you know, she's owned by the shoes who are, you know, they've been great clients of mine.
00:45:02And we kept bringing to Justify, and we finally got a good Justify, which is, you know, on the dirt,
00:45:08you know.
00:45:09So we're excited about that.
00:45:10Watching her, it looked like at one point she was maybe just going to go backwards, and she really found
00:45:14something deeper.
00:45:15Have you always thought that she wanted to go the route of ground?
00:45:17We were just happy to get her to the races, you know.
00:45:20So, but, you know, the way she wanted her first out.
00:45:23And then, yeah, at the two and a half, I think she was in an awkward position.
00:45:27But when he asked her to go, she took off.
00:45:29And then at the 8th Bowl, she just caught another gear.
00:45:32So that's something that, you know, you want to see down the road.
00:45:35So it's nice to have a good 3-year-old filly like that.
00:45:38She's a stakes winner.
00:45:40But today, that was pretty impressive.
00:45:42I was really impressed with it myself.
00:45:44I think we were all impressed except maybe Summer.
00:45:46That's right.
00:45:47She had her money on a different horse.
00:45:49But congratulations here, Bob.
00:45:51That was her first TV interview, by the way.
00:45:53Was it?
00:45:53There you go.
00:45:53You know what?
00:45:54She's got a very good face for the TV.
00:45:56We have to work on what she's going to say next time.
00:45:58That's right.
00:45:59All right.
00:46:00Congratulations, Papa.
00:46:06Santa Anita's 2025-2026 meet concluded on Monday.
00:46:11The on-track crowd totaled over 540,000 fans and averaged more than 7,000 people per day over the
00:46:1877-day season,
00:46:20which included both the Classic and Hollywood meets.
00:46:23All Sources Handle totaled $708,112,231, with an average daily handle of $9.196 million.
00:46:35Marked the sixth consecutive year, Handle has exceeded $9 million for the winter-spring season.
00:46:41Live Racing returns to Santa Anita Friday, September 25th, with a six-week autumn meet.
00:46:47Well, it's, of course, Royal Ascot Week.
00:46:49And to help us out with coverage of Royal Ascot, we're pleased to bring in Brian Sheeran, the European sales
00:46:55editor,
00:46:56who is, I'm sure, going to be very busy all week covering the goings-on for the Thoroughbred Daily News.
00:47:01Welcome, Brian.
00:47:02And we're recording this Tuesday at about noon East Coast time here in New York.
00:47:06So we already have some of the results in from the first day at Royal Ascot.
00:47:12What happened to notable speech in the Queen Anne?
00:47:15Not a very good performance.
00:47:16Sixth for our U.S. champion from last year.
00:47:19Yeah, it was a strange race.
00:47:22A 1-2 for Knight of Thunder, which I suppose we've been saying for a while,
00:47:26Knight of Thunder is this emerging force.
00:47:28He's very much emerged now, but a 1-2 for him and a 50-1 shot, 10-Bob Tony winning
00:47:33it.
00:47:33I don't think many people would have saw that, but a disappointing effort, as you said, from notable speech.
00:47:39His stablemate, Upper Bellow, ran a gallant race back in third, I think he hung on for.
00:47:44But that just set the tempo for what's been an unbelievable day.
00:47:47I mean, the hard thing now is going to be trying to top it.
00:47:51I mean, you've got storylines left, right and center, but what a start to the day.
00:47:55So notable speech was seventh in the St. James Palace at Royal Ascot as a three-year-old.
00:48:02He was fourth off the board in this race last year, and now he's sixth today.
00:48:08Maybe he's just not an Ascot kind of horse?
00:48:11That could well be the case.
00:48:13You know, it is a very stiff mile at Ascot.
00:48:16You know, I think a lot has been made about the fact that Charlie's Appleby stable hasn't been maybe operating
00:48:23at the pump that it has been usually.
00:48:25You know, some stables go through that.
00:48:27Even the top trainers in the world have a quiet year.
00:48:29Charlie hasn't been, I don't think even they have a two-year-old runner this year at Royal Ascot.
00:48:34So, you know, maybe he just needs the turning tracks.
00:48:38I'm not sure.
00:48:39But, of course, he did win on straight courses as well.
00:48:41But Ascot is a unique test and it just hasn't been his test so far.
00:48:47A little bit of unique timing here where we're taping the podcast on a Tuesday.
00:48:52And so a lot of people viewing this won't be able to see it until later in the week once
00:48:56a couple of days of Ascot are in the books.
00:48:58What are some matchups we can look forward to later in the week, please?
00:49:03Well, I mean, as I said, it's going to be hard to top today.
00:49:06But I might just run through some of the storylines from so far today.
00:49:10I mean, Aidan O'Brien has started off in amazing form.
00:49:13He doesn't have many geldings.
00:49:14He won the big sprint.
00:49:15And when we were back there in March, he came out with a fantastic line about Mission Central that he
00:49:19was going to have to earn his keep.
00:49:21And he did exactly that in the big sprint today.
00:49:24He also won the two-year-old race of the Coventry with the second string.
00:49:27So that could be a pointer towards the two-year-old races throughout the week.
00:49:31Like Stad and Boeco, I mean, that was a fantastic tussle in the St. James' Palace.
00:49:35You know, Boeco confirming superiority over Stad from their Guineas run.
00:49:40He looks like a top-notch minor going forward.
00:49:42So on Wednesday, I'm not sure when this is going out, but we've got one of the biggest tussles of
00:49:46the week in the Prince of Wales Estates.
00:49:48It's all been built up about this matchup between Ombudsman and last year's ARC winner, Darius.
00:49:53I actually think there could be when we're concentrating so much on two top-class horses, you know,
00:49:59we're kind of forgetting about some of the rivals in here.
00:50:01And Mini Hawk is quite a big price.
00:50:04I'm not sure if this will be out in time for the race,
00:50:06but I wouldn't be surprised if both of the big guns in that race actually were thwarted by something else
00:50:11at a bigger price.
00:50:12It's a race with real strength and depth, and I think it's one of the races of the week.
00:50:16I'm really looking forward to it.
00:50:18And granted, I'm not sure what time this is going up,
00:50:20but there's a big horse running in the Windsor Castle Stakes, Celeron from Michael O'Callaghan.
00:50:25The Windsor Castle, the criteria for running in the race has changed.
00:50:30You have to be by a certain sire that got a certain distance.
00:50:33This horse is by Mahatir, so he gets into the race.
00:50:36And I think Michael O'Callaghan, you know, he's gone close to having a big Royal Ascot winner in the
00:50:40past.
00:50:41I think Celeron is one to keep a note of.
00:50:43It'd be a great story because Michael O'Callaghan,
00:50:47he lost one of his best friends in tragic circumstances during the years.
00:50:51So that'd be a real feel-good story if he was to get his first Royal Ascot winner.
00:50:56As the week progresses, I mean, it just gets unbelievable.
00:51:00There's some fantastic races throughout the week.
00:51:02I suppose the Gold Cup, I'm not sure you wouldn't be as used to these stares over in America.
00:51:08We love them over here.
00:51:09I mean, they come back year after year.
00:51:12Aidan O'Brien has had some brilliant horses like Kiprios, Yates.
00:51:16I think Scandinavia could be of a similar ilk.
00:51:19He's a son of justify.
00:51:21Just when you think he's beaten, he just finds a little bit extra.
00:51:25And I think that's exactly what you need with a stair.
00:51:27The horse that can go through the pain barrier and get that extra distance.
00:51:31Trawler man is the defending champion, but he hasn't had the most straightforward campaign.
00:51:35So I think Scandinavia looks real tough.
00:51:39He's going to be hard to beat.
00:51:41And if you want to move on to Friday, we've got the Albany, another two-year-old race.
00:51:46A big fascination from Royal Ascot is these two-year-old races.
00:51:50And it's another Breeze Up graduate that I'm really interested in here for Mick Murphy,
00:51:56who's a famed nurturer of talent.
00:51:59He's got a horse called Light of Dawn from Watnan Racing, who you're so familiar of over in America.
00:52:04I think Light of Dawn will run really well.
00:52:06Another big expensive purchase.
00:52:07She was 625,000 at Arcana just back in May.
00:52:11So it's a quick turnaround, but I think she'll go very close.
00:52:14So we've also got the Coronation Stakes on Friday, which is quite a funny one because, you know,
00:52:21Ryan Moore picked Precise at Newmarket when True Love won.
00:52:24He picked True Love at the Curragh when Precise won.
00:52:26So the market seems to suggest he's going to pick Precise in the Coronation Stakes.
00:52:30And I'm sure he'll be on the right one.
00:52:32She seems to be the filly that is progressing beyond True Love.
00:52:35And I think she'll be very difficult to beat.
00:52:37The market suggests so as well.
00:52:40Well, Brian, thank you so much for your insights.
00:52:42Brian Sheeran, the European Sales Editor.
00:52:44As always, a very exciting week of racing at Royal Ascot.
00:52:48It concludes on Saturday with the Queen Elizabeth II Jubilee.
00:52:51I know you'll be busy all week.
00:52:53Thanks for spending a few minutes with us.
00:52:55Brilliant.
00:52:55The TD and Riders Room brought to you by the Pennsylvania Horse Breeders Association, the PHBA.
00:53:02We're all familiar with the Pennsylvania bred Caravelle, who beat the boys in the Breeders' Cup Turf Sprint several years
00:53:10ago.
00:53:10Well, Caravelle's half-brother, Witty, won his seven-year-old debut a couple of weeks ago.
00:53:16And just on Friday at Laurel, Caravelle's half-sister, Somnium, won an allowance race with the big move through the
00:53:23stretch.
00:53:24Caravelle, Witty, Somnium, all bred by Elizabeth Merriman.
00:53:28So you want to check out the next generation of outstanding Pennsylvania bred.
00:53:32Stop by the Brandywine Polo Club at Kennett Square this Saturday, June the 20th, from 10 a.m. to 3
00:53:38p.m.
00:53:39for Pennsylvania's second annual Yearling Show.
00:53:42There'll be five judging classes, $40,000 in prize money up for grabs.
00:53:47For more information about entering your yearling or just attending to watch, go to www.pabread.com
00:53:54or call Brian Sanfratello at 610-444-1050.
00:53:59The Pennsylvania breeding program is the best program in the country.
00:54:04The stallion awards, the owner bonuses, also the restrictive races and the stakes races for Pennsylvania breads.
00:54:11Last year, 321 Pennsylvania breeders earned breeders awards.
00:54:1622 Pennsylvania breeders earned over $100,000.
00:54:21We have the best program in the country.
00:54:24Take advantage of the fantastic program that we have.
00:54:27Learn more at pabread.com.
00:54:29With some of the fullest fields in the country and quality racing year-round,
00:54:35there's never been a better time to reap the rewards of breeding and racing in Kentucky.
00:54:42Purse money in Kentucky is at an all-time high, as in average purse per race,
00:54:47outpacing California, Florida, and New York.
00:54:51Kentucky breads.
00:54:52Breed them.
00:54:53Raise them.
00:54:54Race them.
00:54:56We all win.
00:55:00The TD and Writers Room, also brought to you by Kentucky Breads,
00:55:04such as Golden Tempo, the Kentucky Derby and the Belmont winner.
00:55:08And with his win in the Belmont Stakes, that gave Kentucky Breads a sweep of this year's Triple Crown.
00:55:15Congratulations to the breeders of Golden Tempo,
00:55:17Phipps Stable, and St. Elias Stable on earning a $7,500 Kentucky Breeders Incentive Fund Award
00:55:24for winning the Belmont.
00:55:26And this week, another dozen Kentucky Breads, slightly more than that, actually,
00:55:30will take their spot in the starting gate at Royal Ascot.
00:55:33They include Group 1 Inference Frost at Don in the King Charles Stakes for the second straight year.
00:55:39A two-time Group 1 winner, Scandinavia, who runs in the Gold Cup on Thursday.
00:55:43And Wesley Ward's Outfielder, who runs in the Commonwealth Cup on Friday.
00:55:50He's won back-to-back stakes in the U.S. this year.
00:55:53Kentucky Breads, breed them, raise them, race them.
00:55:57We all win.
00:55:58Well, quiet weekend of racing, but I bet Randy Moss is excited because his favorite race is the Ohio Derby
00:56:04because it was won by two Phil's.
00:56:06There we go.
00:56:06See, I got to look at that smile on his face every time that I mention two Phil.
00:56:12We always get that.
00:56:13It's run Saturday at Thistledown, $500,000 purse, and a pretty good field for what they're offering there.
00:56:21Good money, a grade three event.
00:56:24And, guys, it looks to me like I'm going to go with Bob Baffer.
00:56:28Desert Gate looks like pretty much a standout in there.
00:56:31I'm not quite sure why Bob kept him out of the Triple Crown.
00:56:33Maybe he didn't think he was a mile and a quarter horse, but in his last two starts, Randy,
00:56:38he's really sprung, turned into a good horse, winning the Hot Springs in the Texas Derby.
00:56:43Maybe he steps up a little bit in class.
00:56:44He's going to have to face the world's best maiden in Ocelli.
00:56:48I think he's also the only speed in the race.
00:56:50He'll be tough to beat, in my opinion.
00:56:52Yeah, I mean, you know, when Robusta, you know, whereas he and Chip Poncho and Ocelli and Bull by the
00:57:00Horns and Albus have been knocking heads in the Kentucky Derby and the Preakness,
00:57:07Desert Gate took the easier route and had a couple of huge wins at Oakland and Lone Star.
00:57:13So it certainly looks like he's coming into the race clicking on all cylinders, and I agree with you.
00:57:18Almost all the horses that I just referenced are sort of deep closer type horses, and Desert Gate is a
00:57:25speed horse with little obvious competing early speed in the race.
00:57:30So he may have an advantage from that perspective.
00:57:34Yeah, I'm not going to deviate from being captain.
00:57:36Obvious that the two of you were.
00:57:38It is difficult to get past Desert Gate.
00:57:42I'm going to offer you a little turn back the clock scenario here.
00:57:45So we're in the middle of June.
00:57:47Summer is settling in.
00:57:49The weather is nice pretty much everywhere in the country.
00:57:51And go back four and a half months ago when we were in the depths of winter, and I was
00:57:56trying to figure out who was going to win the Derby.
00:57:57And I write the TDN Derby Top 12 for our publication.
00:58:01And there was a time in the month of January and February that I had Desert Gate as the Derby
00:58:07winner at number one.
00:58:08And lo and behold, he did win the Derby.
00:58:10He won the Texas Derby.
00:58:11I just was off by a few states there.
00:58:13But his demise coming out of the top tier of the horses really started back on February 7th when he
00:58:21was the 6-5 favorite.
00:58:23He drew the rail.
00:58:24He looked to be the controlling speed in the Robert Lewis stakes at Santa Anita.
00:58:28But he missed the break, and he was fourth in that race.
00:58:31And it was really a too-bad-to-be-true type of race.
00:58:34And I thought for sure that he would resurface on the races pointing for the Triple Crown Trail.
00:58:41I also don't really know why he was kind of taken off the Triple Crown Trail and didn't pursue some
00:58:48of those races in March or April.
00:58:50However, Bob Baffert brought him back.
00:58:54He manhandled an easy field in the Hot Springs stakes at Oak Lawn.
00:58:58He won the Texas Derby.
00:59:00He won those races by a combined 16 lengths.
00:59:03I figure he's, you know, where his loss back in February seemed too good to be true, he seems almost
00:59:10too obvious to be true in this race.
00:59:12I tried to figure out when Bob Baffert last started a horse or if he had ever started a horse
00:59:16at Thistledown.
00:59:17And according to Formulator, which only goes back five years, he has not started a horse in North Randall, Ohio.
00:59:23And I don't know if there ever was a time.
00:59:24Maybe having a string stable closer at Churchill Downs facilitates that.
00:59:30But I believe this is Bob's first time sending a horse there.
00:59:34Bill, it looks like kind of a match race with he and Chip Hancho right from the start, honestly.
00:59:39That well could be.
00:59:40Well, Randy, or excuse me, TD, talking about Captain Obvious, kind of pretty obvious favorite in the Chicago Stakes Saturday
00:59:47at Churchill Downs in Eclatant.
00:59:50She was a nice Philly for Brad Cox last year, but all of a sudden bringing her back this year
00:59:55as a four-year-old, she's just really come into her own.
00:59:58Buyer numbers of 104 and 109, Jones anywhere close to that, this race is no contest.
01:00:03Yeah, I am going to try and deviate here and try and come up with a little bit of a
01:00:07price horse.
01:00:08This is the race, the Chicago Stakes, now run at Churchill Downs.
01:00:13This last couple of years, won by Valva, who was at or near the top of her division, the Philly
01:00:18Amir Sprinting Division.
01:00:20I'm going to go with the great Philly, Beauty Reigns.
01:00:23Bill Mott, Junior Alvarado teaming up for this one.
01:00:26She is far short of those speed figures you just referenced.
01:00:29She has not caught a sniff of those triple-digit numbers.
01:00:32I believe once she ran a 91, but that time that she did punch up into the 90s was, I
01:00:39believe, at Churchill Downs.
01:00:40She is two for two there.
01:00:41She's a bit of a stalker, can come from a little farther back out of it, and she's going to
01:00:45need – the faster, the better on the front end for some of her rivals would benefit Beauty Reigns.
01:00:52So a little addendum here to what we were talking about a minute ago.
01:00:56I have access to a buyer speed figure DRF database where I can go back and look, going back 30
01:01:05-plus years to see if trainers have run horses at certain racetracks.
01:01:08Baffert has actually had two previous Ohio Derbies that he's been a part of.
01:01:14In 1997, Annette finished second, and Precocity finished fourth in the Ohio Derby.
01:01:21He had two that year.
01:01:22And then he was eighth in 2015 with a horse that nobody remembers by the name of Whiskey Ticket.
01:01:29So this will be the third time that Baffert has been involved in the Ohio Derby.
01:01:33Surprise me.
01:01:34Good one.
01:01:34Good one.
01:01:35Yeah.
01:01:36I need Randy to follow me around and correct all the things that I might drop off my radar like
01:01:42that.
01:01:42That's a good one.
01:01:43You didn't have access to the database.
01:01:45Okay.
01:01:46Well, Randy, can they beat Eclatant?
01:01:48I don't think so, but I'm a speed figure guy, right?
01:01:54And Eclatant beat Grand Job in that huge speed figure at Keeneland.
01:02:00And so then the question always becomes, you know, how legitimate is that figure?
01:02:04And you watch the horses when they run back.
01:02:06Well, Grand Job came back again and was beaten in another extremely fast race at Saratoga.
01:02:14So I think that fig was verified, and I think Eclatant is going to be awfully tough to beat at
01:02:19a very short price, I would guess.
01:02:22Well, before we wrap things up, we always encourage our listeners and our viewers to leave comments on our YouTube
01:02:28page.
01:02:29And we get a chance.
01:02:30We like to comment on them.
01:02:31And just last week, it was gratifying to see how many people really enjoyed our podcast, in particular because of
01:02:38Mark Cassie as our guest.
01:02:40And as always, Mark Cassie comes off as such a classy guy who is so knowledgeable.
01:02:45So I just want to read a couple opinions.
01:02:47This is from Jason L.
01:02:48It says, I never get tired of hearing Mark Cassie speak.
01:02:51Such wisdom there.
01:02:52Great show.
01:02:53We thank you, Jason.
01:02:54And Monroe Woodbury, TAP president?
01:02:58Is that the president of the Todd Bletcher fan club or something like that?
01:03:01Monroe?
01:03:02We're not sure.
01:03:03But he says, great interview.
01:03:04I love the boyhood memories of Mark Cassie going to Saratoga with his dad.
01:03:08I do the same thing with my own son now, and I feel the exact same way.
01:03:12What a class act this man is, and great for the sport.
01:03:16Well said.
01:03:16And there was several other comments that had the same sentiments about how much people enjoyed the interview with Mark
01:03:23Cassie.
01:03:24The TDN Writer's Room Work of the Week is brought to you by First TV.
01:03:30Grade 1 Goodwood Stakes winner Nevada Beach had his first workout Saturday since finishing 12th in the Saudi Cup.
01:03:36And that was his only start this year.
01:03:38He also won the Los Alamitos Derby and the Native Diver Stakes at age 3.
01:03:43This Bob Baffert trainee worked a half mile in 49 and three-fifths seconds.
01:03:48It was on Saturday.
01:03:50We'll be right back after this message from First TV.
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01:04:51Visit westpointtv.com.
01:04:55TD and Riders Room also brought to you by West Point Thoroughbreds as New York Racing heads into one of
01:05:00its most exciting stretches of the year.
01:05:02As in Saratoga.
01:05:03West Point has plenty to look forward to already this year at Naira Tracks.
01:05:09West Point has won nine races from 39 starts, including horses like Integration and Counting Stars that we talked about
01:05:15over the last couple of weeks.
01:05:17Contributing to a deep and talented roster.
01:05:19And all that success doesn't happen without great horsemen and great horsewomen in the background.
01:05:25West Point extends its thanks to the trainers, jockeys, and entire backstretch teams whose hard work and dedication have helped
01:05:32create so much momentum heading into Saratoga.
01:05:35A highly anticipated opening of the new Belmont Park is also right around the corner in September.
01:05:40It's a terrific time to be involved with New York Racing and West Point Thoroughbreds as excited for what's ahead.
01:05:46To learn more about ownership opportunities with West Point and its horses making headlines across the country,
01:05:52go to www.westpointtb.com.
01:06:01Well, that's a wrap on this week's TDN Writer's Room podcast.
01:06:04We want to thank our Gainesway guest of the week, Scott Drudy.
01:06:07I want to thank TD Thornton for filling in for Zoe Catman.
01:06:10She'll be back week and as always, I want to thank Randy Moss for all his insights and teaming up
01:06:15to make this what we think is just a great, interesting podcast.
01:06:19And then one of the reasons why is the people that work behind the scenes, they put the whole thing
01:06:24together.
01:06:24They do a great job.
01:06:25That's Sue Finley, Katie Petruniak, Anthony LaRocca, and Alita LaRocca.
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