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00:00So Cleo, on last week's pod, we said that Keir Starmer definitely wasn't in legacy mode
00:03because he was making quite junior minister-ish announcements.
00:07And then a week's a long time in politics.
00:09So he has definitely pressed the bold button and is in full fat legacy,
00:14as we have seen from his announcing quite quickly
00:18that there should be a ban on social media for under-16s.
00:21Yeah, and by the way, it's worth looking at some of the clips that the BBC did yesterday.
00:26They went to some schools and spoke to some children.
00:28And they're quite deadpan, I would say, in their interview technique, these kids.
00:32Yeah, we looked at screen time. What was your screen time over the weekend?
00:35Nine hours.
00:36Nine hours. So suddenly you're going to have a lot more time to fill.
00:40And what will you do?
00:42Stare at a wall.
00:43So we didn't get to cover this because it happened after our record,
00:46but John Healy, the Defence Secretary, resigned last week,
00:50followed by the Armed Forces Minister, Al Karnes.
00:54More to follow.
00:55Please, favourite. Good old Al.
00:57And a couple of PPSs from Defence as well.
01:02A PPS is the kind of most junior of MPs who are part of the government,
01:06so it's a Parliamentary Private Secretary.
01:08He wrote a pretty withering resignation letter.
01:12I wonder if you'd like to read us a couple of extracts.
01:14The first thing I'd like to comment on is the PDFing.
01:17On the gov.uk website is WAFL.
01:20Because they've managed to create a PDF of a House of Commons letter,
01:24which we know is on cream paper, and they've given it a white border,
01:26which, you know, I've got some questions about the attention to detail.
01:29God, how deep does the conspiracy go?
01:31I just don't think people pay enough attention to these things.
01:33But it's a very good letter, as you'd expect.
01:34So, it starts with that absolutely soulful, you know,
01:37this is a letter I never expected to write,
01:39and I do so now with great regret and reluctance.
01:42It's a bit like a breakup letter in every sense of the word.
01:44And he sets out, kind of pretty coruscatingly,
01:47his case, which is promises were made
01:50about what was going to happen to the defence budget,
01:52that it's been a very long time, it's been two years,
01:55they've been working on this together,
01:56there's an absolute consensus we need to spend more on defence,
01:59and yet, and yet, and yet.
02:00Months and months and months after the Strategic Defence Review,
02:04there wasn't a settlement,
02:05and the kind of handling of John Healy himself,
02:08and the way the resignation worked.
02:10I think if it wasn't for the make-a-feel by-election,
02:12this would have caused much more of a consternation.
02:15And the fact that it felt like a massive rock
02:18being dropped into a pond,
02:19but with not very many ripples,
02:22tells you that actually the real seismic stuff
02:24is happening underneath.
02:26I completely agree.
02:27Normally, this would trigger, I think,
02:29a weekend of many other ministerial resignations,
02:33and unfortunately for Keir Starmer,
02:36although it seems stable, as you say, from the outside,
02:39it means the end really is night,
02:40because people are thinking,
02:42oh, well, I may as well just sit tight for a few days,
02:44because this is all going to be moot soon.
02:46Anyway, a quick note on Al-Khans' resignation.
02:50So surprised you want to talk about Al-Khans.
02:52I know, I did.
02:53I mean, he's gone down a little bit in my estimation, actually.
02:56I know, I know.
02:57My idol's feet are made of clay.
03:00Because there was a bit of a delay
03:03before Dan Jarvis was eventually announced
03:06as the new Defence Secretary.
03:08And then Al-Khans resigned.
03:10And I thought,
03:12I don't know how principled your resignation was
03:16in the end, Alistair.
03:18Because you've resigned once it became clear
03:20that you were not going to be promoted.
03:21Correct.
03:22We have seen that movie before.
03:23Yeah, exactly.
03:25It's one from the playbook that we know and love.
03:30And one of the interesting things this week
03:32is that obviously Keir Starmer is generally,
03:35the criticism against him is generally
03:37characterised as being slow.
03:39He's, he never, you know,
03:41he doesn't lead aggressively,
03:42and he's a bit slow to kind of catch up
03:45with the zeitgeist.
03:45But it turns out he's a bit of a trendsetter,
03:48because late to the party on Substack
03:51is Nigel Farage,
03:52who did his first kind of lengthy essay this week,
03:57snappily entitled,
03:59Britain is a Two-Tier State Against White People.
04:03We want to talk a little bit later
04:05about what this long-form essay business means
04:08to politicians,
04:09because, you know,
04:10it's not totally straightforward.
04:11And it's a lot of words
04:13to just wade through, frankly.
04:15Yeah, I don't think anyone's thinking
04:16of the reader in this context.
04:17But the other thing that is interesting
04:20is that one of the things that Keir Starmer,
04:22you know,
04:23if you're talking about his legacy mode,
04:24was that he thought he was going to
04:26heal a divided nation
04:27and bring people together.
04:28And perhaps actually what we see
04:30towards the end of his premiership
04:31is that it's quite the opposite.
04:33It's true.
04:37So, Prime Minister Keir Starmer
04:39is going to mind about his legacy.
04:41All prime ministers do.
04:43And he's going to have a really clear idea,
04:44if the end is in fact nigh,
04:46of what are the things
04:47that he wants to be remembered for.
04:50And what do you think those are?
04:51So, Keir Starmer probably wants his legacy to be
04:54his social media ban for under-16s,
04:57big announcement,
04:58renters reform,
05:00huge piece of legislation.
05:01He scrapped the two-child benefit cap.
05:03Migration has fallen dramatically.
05:05School breakfast clubs,
05:06which we could not have heard more about.
05:08Pride in having breakfast clubs for children.
05:11He scrapped her edgy peers
05:12and hiked VAT on private schools.
05:15So, absolutely classic
05:16old labour, new labour,
05:18always labour policies there.
05:20Yes, unfortunately though,
05:21you don't always get to choose
05:22what your legacies are.
05:24And I think there are a couple of things
05:26that will follow him around forever,
05:27which is what's happened so far.
05:29So, where he's not really made any change
05:32on welfare reform.
05:33He had that big row.
05:34People are so cross about it.
05:35And yet, actually,
05:36we've ended up spending more on welfare,
05:39not funding defence properly
05:40and actually wasting two years
05:42getting to this point.
05:44He's managed to piss off farmers
05:46with IHT,
05:48which is the inheritance tax for them.
05:50He's managed to piss off judges
05:51by scrapping some jury trials.
05:53He's managed to piss off veterans
05:55because we have many of them
05:56being dragged into courts
05:58across the land
06:00and some row back
06:01on the housing promises
06:03for them also.
06:05There's also a bit of trickiness
06:07on things like the winter fuel allowance,
06:09which hasn't actually changed.
06:10People remember that
06:12as the government coming
06:14for the most in need.
06:17So, it was like a completely pointless row
06:19that has caused him major,
06:21major damage
06:22and still comes up now
06:23on doorsteps
06:24and in focus groups.
06:26And then,
06:26a kind of interesting one,
06:28but the assisted dying bill
06:30is kind of being revived,
06:32ironically,
06:33at the moment
06:34in the House of Commons
06:35after being knocked out
06:36by the Lords.
06:38And although this is not something
06:39he's personally got involved in,
06:42it has happened on his watch.
06:44And regardless of how this turns out,
06:47it has been a very divisive debate.
06:49And although he has not led it personally,
06:52I think it all adds to this picture
06:54of things that kind of happened
06:56under his stewardship of the country,
06:58if you know what I mean.
07:00I do.
07:00And I think on that one,
07:01it's kind of his passive governing trademark
07:03is part of the assisted dying,
07:06letting something like that
07:07to sort of happen.
07:09It's one of the biggest things
07:10that the government can get involved with
07:11is people's right to die,
07:13right to life,
07:14what the NHS will have to do.
07:16And what became apparent
07:17during that debate last year
07:18was that one of the reasons
07:19we needed assisted dying
07:20is because our palliative care
07:22was so poor.
07:24It's kind of state failure
07:25and it's sort of just happening
07:26to the side,
07:27which is really problematic.
07:28The other thing that I think
07:30Keir Starmer promised to do,
07:31if you remember,
07:31one of my old favourites,
07:32was to rewire the state.
07:34And there's been no rewiring
07:36as far as I can see.
07:37So it all kind of comes to
07:39somebody who,
07:40there was a lot of hope,
07:41there was a lot of promise,
07:42there was a lot of
07:43things are going to be different.
07:45I mean, rightly or wrongly,
07:46people probably pinned a lot
07:48on that in the abstract
07:49and it wasn't really anything
07:50he said,
07:51it was what everybody
07:52thought might happen.
07:53Some of it's stuff he said though
07:54and he just hasn't actually
07:56delivered up to those expectations.
07:58And the reality is
08:00that Keir Starmer
08:00has not, in fact,
08:02helped to build trust
08:03or restore trust in politics.
08:05He came up saying
08:06the great ones
08:06were going to be back in charge,
08:07that it was going to be
08:08a trusted time.
08:10And if you look at the data
08:11on what's happened
08:12to trust in politics,
08:13it's not got,
08:14it's not got any better.
08:15It's, you know,
08:16it was already a 40-year low
08:17when he took office
08:19and it has, like,
08:20it's the lowest it's been
08:21since 1983.
08:23He hasn't changed
08:24anything at all
08:25about people's trust
08:26and faith in politics
08:26and that is really troubling.
08:28Yeah, I mean,
08:28that's totally true.
08:29It's a real vibes-based
08:32politics, that one,
08:33because these aren't
08:34specific policies
08:34he can reel off.
08:36But yeah, he said
08:37we can only be healed
08:38by actions, not words.
08:39And he targeted
08:41the lack of trust
08:42in politics
08:43when he stood
08:43in front of the famous
08:45black door in Downing Street
08:46and said,
08:46this is what I'm going to do.
08:48It's time for change.
08:49To not have moved
08:50the dial at all
08:52is quite surprising,
08:54particularly when you work
08:55from the baseline
08:56of how unpopular
08:57the Conservatives were
08:59when he took over
08:59and to come in
09:00with such a big majority.
09:01I mean, they left a lot of,
09:02in this aspect,
09:03they definitely left
09:03a lot of room for growth,
09:05it's fair to say,
09:06in terms of restoring trust.
09:07So it is remarkable.
09:09I mean, the other thing,
09:10again, it's related
09:10to what John Healy said
09:11in his letter
09:12and some of the kind of
09:13really breathtaking criticism
09:14of the damage
09:15to the UK standing
09:16in the world
09:17that comes from
09:18making promises
09:19about defence spending
09:20and then not doing it.
09:22You know,
09:23if you look at
09:24our data
09:26on how we're perceived
09:27in the world
09:27and how other countries
09:28think of the UK,
09:29that also has not
09:30got any better.
09:31In fact, it's got worse.
09:33And it's not just
09:33what people think
09:34about us outside.
09:36Like, within our own country,
09:37just one in four people
09:39who live in this country
09:40think that we're seen
09:41positively from the outside.
09:42So there's a horrible
09:43lack of confidence,
09:44never mind what, you know,
09:45never mind what people
09:46think of us overseas
09:47in real life.
09:48But actually,
09:49we don't think
09:49we're worth it either,
09:50which is troubling.
09:51The trouble with this list
09:52is it's not just
09:53a legacy for him.
09:54It's a record
09:55that whoever replaces him
09:57will have to defend.
09:58You know,
09:58one of Kemi Badenoch's
09:59problems at the moment
10:00is that she's having to,
10:01you know,
10:02rejuvenate
10:03the Conservative Party brand.
10:05And when she stands up
10:05at Prime Minister's questions
10:07and asks Keir Starmer
10:08something difficult,
10:09he's able to say,
10:10what about 14 years
10:12of the Tory party
10:13where this and this
10:13and this happened?
10:14It's a record
10:15from her predecessors
10:16she has to defend.
10:17Whoever takes over
10:18from Keir Starmer
10:19is going to have to do
10:19the same thing
10:20for things on this list
10:22that they arguably
10:23wouldn't have gone
10:24for themselves.
10:25But it's under
10:26a Labour banner
10:26what you're going to do.
10:27So as well as
10:28what do we think
10:29about ourselves
10:29and what do other people
10:30think of us,
10:31it's arguable
10:32that he's actually left
10:33breathing room and space
10:34for kind of more discord,
10:36more distrust
10:37and more extremist ideas
10:38to develop?
10:39Yeah,
10:40I think one of the mistakes
10:42that the Prime Minister
10:43has made
10:44in understandably,
10:45I think he's made a decision
10:46to not give Nigel Farage
10:47for example
10:48or Zat Polanski
10:49any air time.
10:50He hasn't taken
10:51the fight to them
10:52and amazingly
10:53the Labour Party
10:54hasn't sort of earmarked
10:56a particular individual,
10:58maybe a member
10:58of the Cabinet
10:58to be the attack dog
11:00either.
11:01Perhaps they are
11:02actually missing
11:03Angela Rayner
11:03in all of this
11:04who possibly could have
11:06done quite a good job
11:06and if you thought of that
11:07you're absolutely right.
11:08Well do you remember
11:09last summer
11:09is when she probably
11:10could have taken
11:11the fight to reform
11:12but she had her own
11:13troubles going on
11:14with tax issues
11:15on her house.
11:17So in Nigel Farage's
11:18Substack
11:19he talks about
11:20another summer
11:21of discontent
11:22and he's talking
11:23particularly about
11:24what's been happening
11:25in Belfast recently
11:26which we'll talk
11:27about shortly
11:28but actually
11:28this is classic
11:31Farage playbook.
11:32He's done this
11:32for the last two summers.
11:33He has taken advantage
11:34of the long summer recess
11:36where inexplicably
11:37the other major parties
11:39have just
11:40you know
11:40taken it as
11:41it's half time
11:42everybody
11:42go home
11:43rest
11:43relax
11:44the government's
11:45put out a couple
11:46of little press releases
11:47on things like
11:47the environment
11:48and planning
11:49but that was it.
11:50Reform
11:50had a major press conference
11:52every single week
11:53they had five press conferences
11:55on the hop
11:56some of them
11:57really quite jazzy
11:59do you remember
11:59they had one
11:59in an airport hangar
12:01and he had this
12:02big screen behind him
12:03Farage
12:04and it was like
12:06deportations
12:06If Andrew Jenkins
12:07wasn't wearing
12:08a sparkly jumpsuit
12:09and singing
12:09then I didn't notice
12:10Not interested
12:11And it was really
12:13eye grabbing
12:13and he was able
12:15to dominate the agenda
12:16by talking about
12:17immigration
12:18and he was able
12:19to talk about
12:20specifically
12:20the small boats issue
12:21but also
12:22he was able to talk
12:23about tax cuts
12:24actually he was the first
12:25on the pitch
12:26about the two child
12:27benefit cap
12:27for example
12:28and the government
12:29just didn't fight them
12:31the conservatives
12:31didn't say anything at all
12:33and the government
12:34you know
12:34unless they were brought
12:35into it somehow
12:36like the appalling
12:38Southport attacks
12:39where there was a row
12:40about releasing
12:41the ethnicity
12:42of the attacker
12:43they've been just
12:44very slow
12:46to fight reform
12:47on ground
12:48that they want
12:49and it's just not
12:50good politics
12:52to be led into fights
12:53do a bit of
12:54not great attack work
12:56where you say things like
12:57Nigel Farage
12:59is racist
12:59and essentially
13:00anyone else
13:00who votes for him
13:01is too
13:01well there goes
13:02a lot of people
13:03who just voted
13:04for you
13:04by the way
13:05or would have been
13:06traditional
13:06Labour voters
13:08you know
13:09I don't think
13:11I don't think
13:11it's fair
13:12to say
13:12Keir Starmer
13:13has deliberately
13:15allowed Nigel Farage
13:16and Zach Polanski
13:18and he's been
13:18he's been gobbled up
13:19on both sides
13:20I don't think
13:21he has
13:21you know
13:22freely given them
13:23space
13:24to take
13:25what might be
13:26what might be
13:27characterised
13:28as kind of
13:28extremist
13:29or aggressive
13:29politics
13:30into the mainstream
13:31but Labour
13:33as a group
13:34have not
13:35effectively
13:36fought them
13:37and fought them
13:38in ways
13:39that they could
13:40to actually win
13:41some arguments
13:42that they need to
13:43and we've got to see
13:44after this
13:44make-feel by-election
13:45whether Andy Burnham
13:46has better
13:46attack on that
13:48he's a better
13:49communicator
13:49for sure
13:50and I think
13:51probably
13:51but again
13:52here I am
13:52putting all the hopes
13:54and dreams
13:54into a new person
13:56who's going to
13:56fix everything
13:57for us
13:57perhaps
13:58I do think
13:59there is
13:59there's definitely
14:00something in that
14:02and it scares
14:04the life out of me
14:04every time
14:05when you said
14:06you know
14:06Nigel Farage
14:07is out there
14:07talking about
14:08a summer of discontent
14:09and almost kind of
14:09actively
14:10trying to create
14:11the circumstances
14:12of that
14:12that is petrifying
14:14genuinely
14:15because
14:16summer riots
14:17happen
14:18really quickly
14:19it's very easy
14:20actually
14:20and you know
14:21we get them
14:21it's hot
14:22and people are
14:23bored
14:23and listless
14:24and it actually
14:26takes very very little
14:27to tip people
14:27this is just
14:28how human beings
14:29work
14:29so it's very easy
14:31to get mob behaviour
14:31in the summer
14:32and there is just
14:33a massive irresponsibility
14:34of trying to wind that up
14:36because it's uncontrollable
14:38once you've created
14:39a mob ferment
14:40in a place
14:41like it's not going
14:42people don't do
14:42what you want them to do
14:43they behave in a way
14:45and people get hurt
14:45and damaged
14:46that always happens
14:47and if you look at
14:48for example
14:49one of the most
14:50horrifying things
14:51I think in our
14:51adult lives
14:52has happened
14:53in the last
14:53two weeks
14:54in Belfast
14:55where we've had
14:56in the streets
14:57of this country
14:57people being burnt
14:59out of their homes
15:00because they
15:01don't have white skin
15:02or they're migrants
15:03or actually for no reason
15:05whatsoever
15:05and the fear
15:07that that is creating
15:08and the ripples
15:09of effect of that
15:10is
15:11we've sort of
15:12things that happen
15:13in Belfast
15:13sometimes
15:14people think
15:14oh well
15:15that's just
15:15you know
15:15Northern Ireland
15:16which obviously
15:16has always driven me
15:18around the twist
15:19it's like
15:20oh it's okay
15:20because it's just Belfast
15:21but it's so far
15:23from okay
15:23and it's wildly
15:24irresponsible
15:25to start to do that
15:26the other thing
15:27that I think
15:27that people
15:28you may or may not
15:29have noticed
15:30that there was
15:31a bit of news
15:31yesterday
15:31that surprise
15:32surprise
15:33the people
15:34behind the firebombing
15:35of Keir Starmer's
15:36house
15:36it was in fact
15:37it looks like
15:38a piece of
15:38Russian interference
15:40it is so obvious
15:42to anybody
15:42who's read or thought
15:44or known anything
15:44or done jobs
15:45like I do
15:46have done
15:46I take about
15:48deep state
15:49and I'm not
15:50a securocrat person
15:51but what happens
15:53is that
15:53our enemies
15:54and we do have
15:55enemies as a country
15:55absolutely love
15:57this stuff
15:57they pile in
15:59they create discord
16:00they create uncertainty
16:01they create unrest
16:02because of course
16:03they do
16:03because they win
16:04from that
16:05because all of
16:06the attention
16:06of the state
16:07is directed
16:07then onto
16:08trying to work
16:09out what that is
16:10and you have
16:10unhappy people
16:11who are likely
16:12to believe
16:13all sorts of stuff
16:13who are likely
16:14to be disrupted
16:14in their own country
16:15it is the cheapest
16:16and easiest way
16:17of weakening a nation
16:19and it works really well
16:20yeah I mean
16:21I completely agree
16:22it's also interesting
16:23to me that
16:26typically
16:27people have
16:28characterised
16:29the kind of
16:30intervention of Russia
16:32in the British state
16:33as really obvious things
16:34like the Salisbury poisoning
16:36to
16:37less
16:38to more subtle things
16:40like bots
16:41on social media
16:42and so forth
16:44and there are
16:44just different ways
16:45to capitalise
16:47on things
16:47that are already
16:48happening here
16:49and Nigel Farage
16:50inflaming this stuff
16:51exactly as you say
16:52in ways that he
16:53can't control
16:54I mean I don't know
16:55what the reform
16:55presence is
16:56in Northern Ireland
16:57but I haven't seen
16:58him over there
16:58you know
16:59trying to reason
17:00with anybody
17:00I don't think
17:02though
17:02that Russia
17:03have got
17:04much leeway
17:05with bots
17:05on substack
17:06this is the big
17:09question of our age
17:10are the substack bots
17:11it's the final
17:12kind of clean
17:14social media presence
17:15I suppose
17:16but
17:16substack is a safe space
17:17I do want to chat
17:18a little bit about
17:19Nigel Farage's
17:20substack
17:20because he
17:22I mean he's had
17:22a lot of traction
17:23on there
17:24he's had
17:25you know
17:26over a thousand likes
17:27over a thousand comments
17:28over 170
17:30restacks
17:30which I think is like
17:31a retweet
17:32Keir Starmer
17:33by comparison
17:34you know
17:34you're not a substack guy
17:35I actually should be
17:36it turns out
17:37because almost all
17:38authors have a substack
17:40now
17:40because they can
17:41monetize it
17:41it's like
17:43unfortunately for the
17:44publishing industry
17:44it's actually quite a
17:45cunning way to just like
17:46make money
17:47but no one wants
17:48to listen to my
17:49brain farts
17:49unfortunately
17:52maybe
17:53the clear
17:53Watson substack
17:54is coming
17:54hot
17:55hot views
17:56but you know
17:57just for a bit
17:58of comparison
17:58Starmer
17:59his response
18:01to the Tony Blair
18:02essay for example
18:03which was actually
18:04quite well publicized
18:05got a little bit
18:06of media attention
18:07only had 27 comments
18:08and 66
18:10restacks
18:10I mean even there
18:11he's sort of
18:12failing to find
18:14purchase
18:14on Farage
18:16on you know
18:17what is really
18:17his medium
18:19you know
18:19it was Theresa May
18:20who I think
18:21gave a very funny speech
18:22to some journalists
18:23once where she was
18:23talking about
18:24the Matt Hancock app
18:25and
18:26do you know
18:27I was an absolute
18:28devotee of the
18:29Matt Hancock app
18:30what was on it
18:31lots of photos
18:32of Matt
18:33in different
18:33situations
18:34there was Matt
18:35in a pumpkin patch
18:36I remember that one
18:37quite distinctly
18:38there was
18:39a number of
18:42for somebody at that
18:42point had done
18:43no jobs at all
18:44that were to do
18:45with defence
18:45there was quite a lot
18:46of pictures of Matt
18:47wearing
18:47looking out of an
18:48aeroplane window
18:49wearing the cans
18:50just you know
18:51staring wispely
18:52into the future
18:52it was a thing
18:53of total beauty
18:54I sort of beg
18:56to differ on that
18:56and I would
18:57I think all children
18:58should be banned
18:59from that also
18:59I think it's
19:01defunct in fact
19:02there was a whole
19:02like sub-genre
19:03in the civil service
19:04it was just sending
19:05instead of sending
19:06emojis or whatever
19:07to each other
19:07just sending
19:08different photos
19:09gathered from
19:09the Matt Hancock
19:10app as an emotional
19:11response to what
19:12was going on
19:13oh like cross
19:13or happy
19:14or serious
19:15thoughtful
19:16whimsical
19:16yeah
19:17but her best gag
19:18I thought was
19:19about Philip Hammond
19:20who was the
19:21then chancellor
19:22who said
19:23you know
19:23his obvious medium
19:24is LinkedIn
19:25which is
19:26that's a sick burn
19:27if LinkedIn
19:28want to sponsor us
19:28obviously I think
19:29it's the coolest
19:30platform out there
19:31but I am interested
19:32in just why
19:34why the turn
19:35to the long form
19:37essay
19:37because it is
19:39it goes against
19:39the grain of
19:40everything we've
19:40been told about
19:41political communication
19:42it's not TikTok
19:44it's not the kind
19:45of snappy video
19:46which is really
19:48Farage's forte
19:49and I think there
19:49are basically three
19:50reasons
19:50the first is just
19:51the good old grift
19:52you know
19:53this is back to
19:53what we were talking
19:54about with his
19:55cameo appearances
19:57you can monetize
19:59this platform
20:00I don't know
20:00if he is doing
20:01that
20:01but I suspect
20:03he will do
20:04secondly
20:05it is a great
20:07way to avoid
20:07scrutiny actually
20:08so the typical
20:10traditional way
20:11that a party
20:12leader would
20:13do a big
20:14kind of thought
20:15piece like this
20:16would be
20:17in a national
20:17newspaper
20:19an op-ed
20:20as they're called
20:21and
20:21a long read
20:22a long read
20:23all very interesting
20:24but you know
20:25they don't get
20:25necessarily get to
20:26choose the headline
20:27it's edited down
20:28I mean this was
20:29over 3,000 words
20:30so he could go for it
20:32and he could use
20:33the word whiteness
20:34as many times as he liked
20:35which turned out to be
20:3660 times
20:38do you think this is
20:39partly Nigel Farage
20:40like trolling
20:40Keir Starmer
20:41it's like not only
20:42have I beaten you
20:42on everything
20:43but I've come to
20:44your home turf
20:44which is
20:45the policy braids
20:46on Substack
20:47and I'm also
20:48beating you on that
20:49absolutely
20:49I think mimicry
20:50that deliberate mimicry
20:52is just the third
20:52bit in the whole thing
20:54okay fine
20:55you want to talk on here
20:56with the serious guys
20:57go for it
20:58and here's everybody
20:59responding to what I'm saying
21:01I mean there is also
21:01by the way
21:02a big reform presence
21:03on Substack already
21:05Matt Goodwin
21:06who was the candidate
21:07in Gorton and Denton
21:09who's also written
21:09quite an inflammatory book
21:10that was written by AI
21:12so he's now got this nickname
21:14Legal notes
21:15JAT
21:16he's got Matt
21:18GPT
21:19he's got over
21:20100,000 Substack
21:21subscribers
21:22you do sound like
21:23someone who's like
21:23suddenly got really
21:24interested in Substack
21:25I'm very interested
21:27in the money making
21:28possibilities
21:29but I don't think
21:30I could do a
21:313,000 word essay
21:32a week
21:33I'd read a 3,000 word essay
21:34barely do that
21:34at university
21:38but that just seems
21:39the obvious reason
21:40more than anything
21:41it's just not good news
21:42for newspapers
21:43that politicians
21:44are finding
21:45yet another way
21:46to communicate
21:46without them
21:51so one of the things
21:52about prime ministers
21:53I think probably more so
21:54than other ministers
21:55there's something about
21:56the office
21:56there's something about
21:57the trappings
21:57there's something about
21:58the ways of working
21:59where in my experience
22:00prime ministers think
22:01they will go on forever
22:04even when all of the
22:05you know publicly available
22:06information would show
22:07that that isn't the case
22:08in fact particularly
22:09we seem to be on
22:10accelerated replacing
22:11prime ministers
22:12and it's usually
22:13quite late in the day
22:14and almost always
22:16before everybody else
22:17around them
22:18has started to polish up
22:19their CVs
22:19and think about
22:20what next
22:20that the prime minister
22:22themselves realises
22:23that actually
22:24it is coming to an end
22:26and that kind of
22:27penny drop moment
22:27you can see it
22:28in whether it is
22:29the end of Tony Blair's
22:31time in office
22:32slightly less so
22:33in Gordon Brown's time
22:34because I think
22:35he might have thought
22:35he was going to win
22:36the election
22:37in 2009 to 2010
22:39or certainly wasn't
22:40as sure that he was leaving
22:42because he felt like
22:42he'd not been there
22:43for very long
22:44you see at the end
22:45of the coalition
22:46when I worked for
22:47David Cameron
22:47and Nick Clegg
22:48in the last year
22:49of the coalition
22:50I think both of them
22:51thought I've got to get
22:53I've got to get loads
22:53of stuff done
22:54and I really want to
22:55get these things done
22:55and I remember
22:56Nick Clegg suddenly
22:57getting super into
22:59the problems
23:00with mental health
23:01provision for example
23:01which is a scar
23:03that is running
23:03across so many things
23:04that are happening
23:04in our country
23:05at the time
23:06and you sort of think
23:07in frustration
23:08like why didn't we
23:09get to any of this
23:10like it's February
23:112015 dude
23:12like all of these ideas
23:14are great
23:14but we can't do
23:15many of them now
23:16and there is a thing
23:18that happened then
23:19and then there's
23:19you know the end
23:20of Theresa May's time
23:21which we've talked
23:22before on this podcast
23:23where in that last
23:24kind of blaze of glory
23:25before she went out
23:26she did all sorts of things
23:28and even Boris Johnson
23:29did stuff before
23:30he left office
23:31I think
23:31can't quite remember
23:32what that was
23:33he's got a specific
23:34legacy
23:34not problem
23:35but I think one of his
23:36gripes when we were
23:37in government anyway
23:38was that his key legacy
23:40really was leaving
23:41the European Union
23:42which happened
23:43in the first four months
23:44of his premiership
23:46and it obviously
23:47very much frustrated him
23:49after the 31st of January 2020
23:52that you know
23:53obviously Covid
23:54is now part of his legacy
23:55but when he was looking forward
23:56he wanted something
23:58other than Brexit
24:00and we had crazy conversations
24:02about bridges
24:02between Scotland
24:03and Northern Ireland
24:04and all of that
24:05you know
24:06and he wanted to do
24:08a lot about green jobs
24:09and technology
24:10and just something else
24:11that he could kind of
24:12tie his flag to
24:14I suppose
24:15But isn't that always
24:16the Prime Minister's refrain
24:17effectively
24:18is I wanted to do
24:19I wanted to do this
24:21this is what I wanted
24:22to be remembered as
24:23and this is what I want
24:24to spend my time on
24:25and yet
24:26and I'm really sure
24:27Keir Starmer will feel
24:28this is like
24:28I've not been doing nothing
24:29I've been worked off my feet
24:31I've been really busy
24:32I've been doing
24:32all of this governing
24:33which has consumed
24:34my time and energy
24:35rather than the things
24:36I want to do
24:37and I think you have
24:38to be quite mature
24:39into your time
24:39as a Prime Minister
24:41to realise that
24:41actually what you have
24:42to do
24:43is do your governing
24:44of what you want
24:44to achieve
24:45through the events
24:46that life gives you
24:47not kind of be
24:48endlessly frustrated
24:49that it's got to Friday
24:50again and you still
24:50haven't made any progress
24:51on your list
24:53I think that is a signifier
24:54of longevity
24:55in office or not
24:56and hence that really
24:57interesting step change
24:58and what he said
24:59last week about
25:00you know
25:00big tech
25:01you've got three months
25:02to get your houses
25:02in order
25:03before I'm going to
25:03get really very cross
25:04with you
25:06about you know
25:07controlling devices
25:08for children
25:09and how they can
25:09share images
25:10versus this week
25:11where he said
25:12by the end of the year
25:13we're going to have a ban
25:14on social media
25:15for under 16
25:15he thought
25:16where have you been
25:18where is this
25:19on this day man
25:20yeah the very
25:20I mean the very first
25:21episode you and I
25:22recorded
25:22we're now on episode
25:2421
25:27well Helen said
25:28you know the prime
25:29ministers should just
25:29govern like no one's
25:31watching
25:31dance like no one's
25:32watching
25:32and in possibly
25:34his last couple of
25:34weeks that's what
25:35he's starting to do
25:36unfortunately that
25:37doesn't always work
25:38finally someone's
25:39listened to me
25:39yeah finally
25:40and unfortunately
25:41always mean
25:42it also means
25:42in his case
25:43spend like the
25:44chancellor's spending
25:45so
25:45spend like the
25:46chancellor's not
25:46watching
25:47not really spending
25:47very much
25:48but I'm very struck
25:49at least where the
25:50prime ministers
25:51see themselves
25:51you know when you
25:52see them all at
25:52the cenotaph
25:53which is really
25:54the only time of
25:54year when they're
25:55all together
25:56and there they are
25:56in their black
25:57coats and little
25:58hats and stuff
25:58and you think
25:59they're going to
25:59have to have
25:59two rows
26:00I know it's
26:01getting crazy
26:01but you can see
26:02them all eyeing
26:03each other up
26:03thinking where do
26:04I compare
26:06relatively speaking
26:07and also what do
26:09you do once you
26:09leave
26:10so actually
26:11you know
26:11Tony Blair has
26:12the Tony Blair
26:12Institute
26:13he is you know
26:14kind of world
26:15statesman now
26:16Trump and Netanyahu
26:17asked him to get
26:18involved in their
26:20peace deal in
26:21Israel and so on
26:22but also you
26:23have you know
26:24Gordon Brown
26:24this week
26:25who's been
26:25in Boston
26:26it was great
26:27did you see
26:27the pictures of
26:28him in the queue
26:29going to watch
26:29Scotland
26:30also in like
26:30business attire
26:32he's wearing
26:32like a shirt
26:33and chinos
26:33he looks really
26:34smart
26:34I think he's
26:35wearing a shirt
26:35and proper trousers
26:36I don't think
26:36he's a chino guy
26:37oh sorry
26:38well I don't
26:39want to offend
26:40him
26:40he wasn't
26:40wearing a kilt
26:41that's for sure
26:42but he does
26:43all kinds of
26:43charity work
26:44he's also
26:45you know
26:45taking down
26:46Peter Manderson
26:46as far as I
26:47can see
26:47one robust
26:49journalist
26:50email
26:50at a time
26:51Liz Truss
26:53we've got
26:53the Liz Truss
26:54show
26:54that's her
26:55legacy
26:55and I
26:56don't want
26:57to advertise
26:57it obviously
26:58but it's
26:58is that a TV
26:59thing
26:59has she got
27:01a podcast
27:02it's a podcast
27:03but I don't
27:04listen to it
27:05because I just
27:06feel like I
27:07now need to
27:08hear about
27:08whether she's
27:09coming in from
27:10China
27:10is a disgrace
27:11so on
27:13but actually
27:15the person
27:15I've been
27:15thinking of
27:16the most
27:16legacy wise
27:17is Rishi
27:18Sunak
27:19which people
27:19sort of
27:20forget about
27:21because he
27:21obviously
27:21inherited
27:22the economy
27:24from Covid
27:25which he'd
27:25handled
27:26but then
27:26the 40
27:26days of
27:27Liz Truss
27:27very difficult
27:29situation
27:31those nights
27:32were tough
27:33he picked
27:34all that up
27:35and then he
27:36is the person
27:37that has
27:37actually started
27:38quite a lot
27:39of what
27:39Keir Starmer
27:40will take on
27:41as legacy
27:42so he started
27:42the smoking
27:43ban
27:43another ban
27:44another ban
27:45at the end
27:45of his days
27:46banning
27:46children
27:47from doing
27:48harmful
27:48things
27:48no fun
27:49for kids
27:49our teenage
27:50selves
27:51would be
27:51horrified
27:51but our
27:52current
27:53selves
27:53I think
27:54my teenagers
27:55are horrified
27:55to be fair
27:57and similarly
27:58Keir Starmer
27:59is paying
27:59really the
28:01dividends
28:01received from
28:02Rishi Sunak
28:03starting to
28:04take serious
28:04action on
28:05immigration
28:05for example
28:06but have we
28:07got slightly
28:07ahead of
28:07ourselves
28:08Cleo Watson
28:09because Keir
28:10Starmer is
28:10still in fact
28:11the prime
28:11minister
28:11and we
28:12are now
28:13still have
28:14the
28:14make-a-field
28:15by-election
28:15to come
28:16yes we do
28:17I'm going to
28:18put you on
28:19the spot
28:19again
28:19as you know
28:20I enjoy
28:20doing
28:21what is
28:22going to
28:22be the
28:22result
28:23of the
28:24make-a-field
28:24by-election
28:25Pandora
28:25I think
28:26I think
28:26in short
28:26Andy Burnham
28:28is going
28:28to win
28:28not least
28:29because
28:29reform have
28:30taken for
28:31granted
28:31that
28:31up until
28:32now
28:33restore
28:33weren't
28:33really
28:33a
28:33problem
28:34and it
28:34turns out
28:35they are
28:36and this
28:37also presents
28:38an interesting
28:39problem for
28:40reform going
28:40forward
28:41it's weird
28:41that the
28:42people bringing
28:43the fight
28:43to Nigel Farage
28:44are kind
28:46of a random
28:46offshoot
28:47of the
28:47people's
28:47front of
28:48Judea
28:48who knew
28:48exactly
28:49and then
28:50similarly
28:50you've got
28:51the same
28:51problem
28:52on the
28:52other side
28:52the green
28:53is starting
28:54to fall
28:54apart
28:55a little
28:55bit
28:55too
28:56and I'll
28:57explain
28:57that now
28:58so although
28:59I think
28:59Andy Burnham
29:00is going
29:00to win
29:01the
29:01make-a-field
29:02by-election
29:02I specifically
29:03say his
29:03name
29:03not Labour
29:04because
29:04that's
29:05quite
29:05important
29:06piece
29:06of the
29:06picture
29:07here
29:07there is
29:07a new
29:07poll
29:08out
29:08this week
29:09from
29:09Ipsos
29:10which is
29:11a national
29:11poll
29:12and it's
29:13talking about
29:13some of
29:13the leadership
29:14contenders
29:15and actually
29:16nationally
29:17so not
29:17taking into
29:18account
29:18just the
29:19constituents
29:19of
29:20Make-a-field
29:20Andy Burnham
29:22is not
29:22wildly
29:23popular
29:24and in
29:24fact
29:2450%
29:25of the
29:25respondents
29:26said that
29:27they don't
29:28really see
29:29the difference
29:29between
29:30Keir Starmer
29:30and replacing
29:31him with
29:32Andy Burnham
29:33or West
29:33Streeting
29:34there's
29:34actually
29:35quite an
29:36interesting
29:36thing
29:36also
29:37where
29:37Zach
29:38Polanski
29:38is his
29:38lowest
29:39ever
29:41approval
29:41rating
29:42for a
29:42party
29:42leader
29:43Kemi
29:43Bay
29:43knocks
29:43at
29:44her
29:44best
29:44ever
29:44so
29:45there
29:45was
29:46some
29:46interesting
29:46little
29:46polling at
29:471%
29:47in
29:47Makefield
29:48yeah
29:48yeah
29:49so the
29:49concern
29:49I mean
29:50this is a
29:50problem
29:50though
29:51and
29:51this is
29:52perhaps
29:52something
29:53that
29:53Andy Burnham
29:54is going
29:54to have
29:54to come
29:55to terms
29:55with
29:55when
29:56he
29:57perhaps
29:57becomes
29:58a
29:58parliamentarian
29:58at the
29:59end
29:59of this
29:59week
30:01separating
30:01the
30:02party
30:02leader
30:02from
30:02their
30:03party's
30:03brand
30:04and
30:04you know
30:05Reform
30:05and Nigel
30:06Farage
30:06are kind
30:06of
30:06inexplicably
30:07twined
30:08together
30:08in fact
30:09Reform
30:09just is
30:10the
30:10Nigel
30:10Farage
30:11party
30:11the
30:11sub-stack
30:12is a
30:12Nigel
30:13Farage
30:13sub-stack
30:14and he
30:15is the
30:16front man
30:16for
30:16everything
30:16we talked
30:17last week
30:17about how
30:18we've barely
30:18seen the
30:19Makefield
30:19reform
30:20candidate
30:21the
30:21opposite
30:22is true
30:22really
30:22with
30:23Andy
30:23Burnham
30:24where
30:25he is
30:26going to
30:26try
30:26and help
30:27Labour
30:27no longer
30:28have a
30:29Keir
30:29Starmer
30:29problem
30:30whereas
30:31Kemi
30:31Bayden
30:31has got
30:31a
30:32Conservatives
30:32problem
30:33we've got
30:34this
30:34crazy
30:35situation
30:35where
30:36people
30:36should
30:36just
30:36like
30:37in
30:37some
30:38ways
30:38break
30:38away
30:38from
30:38the
30:38band
30:39time
30:39for
30:39a
30:39solo
30:40album
30:40well
30:41let's
30:41see
30:41what
30:41happens
30:41later
30:41in the
30:41week
30:43thank you
30:43for
30:43listening
30:44to
30:44today's
30:44episode
30:44remember
30:45to
30:45follow
30:45the
30:46show
30:46on
30:46your
30:46podcast
30:46player
30:47and
30:47leave
30:47us
30:47a
30:47five
30:48star
30:48review
30:48if
30:48you
30:48enjoyed
30:49it
30:49and
30:49please
30:49do
30:50email
30:50us
30:50with
30:50your
30:50feedback
30:51and
30:51questions
30:51we're
30:52on
30:52in
30:52the
30:52room
30:53at
30:53independent
30:53dot
30:54co
30:54dot
30:54uk
30:54and
30:55if
30:55you're
30:55listening
30:56on
30:56spotify
30:56you
30:57can
30:57comment
30:57on
30:57today's
30:58episode
30:58with
30:58your
30:58thoughts
30:59please
30:59be
31:00kind
31:00and
31:01you
31:01can
31:01keep
31:01up
31:01to
31:02date
31:02with
31:02all
31:02the
31:02best
31:02bits
31:03of
31:03the
31:03podcast
31:03on
31:04Instagram
31:04we're
31:05at
31:05in
31:05the
31:05room
31:06dot
31:06pod
31:06this
31:07podcast
31:07is
31:08part
31:08of
31:08the
31:08independent
31:08podcast
31:09network
31:09and
31:10produced
31:10in
31:10association
31:11with
31:11next
31:11chapter
31:11studios
31:12the
31:12executive
31:13producers
31:13are
31:14Carrie
31:14Rose
31:14and
31:14Olivia
31:15Foster
31:15and
31:16the
31:16producer
31:16is
31:16Sam
31:17Durham
31:17and
31:17a
31:17special
31:18mention
31:18to
31:18content
31:19editor
31:19Maya
31:19Manushka
31:20video
31:20editor
31:21Vali
31:21Raza
31:21and
31:22our
31:22videographer
31:23Dan
31:23Faber
31:23thanks
31:24for
31:24listening
31:24and
31:25we'll
31:25see
31:25you
31:25next
31:25time
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